The Blame Game

Gerudo Dragon · Post by **Gerudo Dragon** » 24 Jan 2013, 00:08

The person above you posts a video of a motorsport crash where atleast 2 cars are involved, you decide who's fault it was or if it was no one's fault at all. Then you post another crash and you get the idea.

I'll start obviously

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 24 Jan 2013, 00:52

Winkelhock is at fault. Being in the middle of two cars has also proven to be dangerous in NASCAR many times so I will find one. I will show the hazards of being in between a rock and a hard place.

A 1990s crash involving Steve Grissom, Jimmy Spencer, Mike Skinner, Kenny Wallace, and Mike Wallace (Mike Wallace ignited the fire with his exhaust). It's easy to pick which of the drivers isn't at fault (Kenny and the two Mikes). But who if anyone is at fault.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia2D-irpIIs

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 24 Jan 2013, 01:49

Onxy Wrecked wrote:Winkelhock is at fault. Being in the middle of two cars has also proven to be dangerous in NASCAR many times so I will find one. I will show the hazards of being in between a rock and a hard place.

I actually would have argued that Menu was leaning too heavily on Winkelhock and with Hoy closing in from the other side, it was only a matter of time before one of the Renaults hit Winkelhock. Although, the crash Paul Radisich had at the same time was CLEARLY his fault :lol:

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 24 Jan 2013, 12:54

Wizzie wrote:
Onxy Wrecked wrote:Winkelhock is at fault. Being in the middle of two cars has also proven to be dangerous in NASCAR many times so I will find one. I will show the hazards of being in between a rock and a hard place.

I actually would have argued that Menu was leaning too heavily on Winkelhock and with Hoy closing in from the other side, it was only a matter of time before one of the Renaults hit Winkelhock. Although, the crash Paul Radisich had at the same time was CLEARLY his fault

Yeah, I don't think Winkelhock had much of a choice. There was plenty of room for the 3 of them, but Menu was just way too aggressive with Winkelhock there.

Onxy Wrecked wrote:Winkelhock is at fault. Being in the middle of two cars has also proven to be dangerous in NASCAR many times so I will find one. I will show the hazards of being in between a rock and a hard place.

A 1990s crash involving Steve Grissom, Jimmy Spencer, Mike Skinner, Kenny Wallace, and Mike Wallace (Mike Wallace ignited the fire with his exhaust). It's easy to pick which of the drivers isn't at fault (Kenny and the two Mikes). But who if anyone is at fault.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia2D-irpIIs

I don't think it's any of them, it's whoever was in the red car behind Jimmy Spencer before he started spinning. The way that Spencer started spinning, I think he had to have had help from behind. It's hard to be sure though, the camera zooms in right as Spencer starts losing it, but I'm pretty sure he had help. Grissom really didn't have anywhere to go, he was already lower on the track, so instinctively he'dve tried to dodge low. It was just really bad luck for him that Skinner was in exactly the wrong place at the wrong time.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 24 Jan 2013, 13:04

I'm just going to leave this and this here.

pasta_maldonado · Post by **pasta_maldonado** » 24 Jan 2013, 19:01

AndreaModa wrote:I'm just going to leave this and this here.

`The first time around, I don't think we'll ever know who's fault it really was. It all depends on whether Prost saw Senna on the inside or not.

If Prost did see Senna, the accident was Prost's fault because he didn't leave enough room for Senna, and ruthlessly closed the door. On the other hand, if Prost didn't see Senna, it places an entriely idifferent spin on the whole incident. The accident now become Senna's fault - it really was a kamikaze move, and Senna didn't show any sign of backing out when he realised things were going a bit iffy.

However, you could argue that Senna was the cause in both spins on the 89' clash, because of the sheer kamikaze and last-ditch nature of the lunge. But, I don't buy that Prost didn't see him coming - Schumacher managed to see Villeneuve at Jerez 97 when he came from an even further distance back...

The second incident is clearly Senna's fault, he even admitted that he didn't brake and intended to take Prost out.

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 24 Jan 2013, 19:42

pasta_maldonado wrote:However, you could argue that Senna was the cause in both spins on the 89' clash, because of the sheer kamikaze and last-ditch nature of the lunge. But, I don't buy that Prost didn't see him coming - Schumacher managed to see Villeneuve at Jerez 97 when he came from an even further distance back...

I tend to agree with Nigel Roebuck opinions on the matter, which are as follows;

First, in the 1989 race Prost indeed took an earlier line into the chicane – he was leading the race and quite entitled to protect his position as far as I’m concerned. You say that, if Senna were not there, Prost would not have been able to make it cleanly through the chicane, and that’s true insofar as he would not have been on the ideal line. He would, though, have been able to make it through – albeit with a slower exit speed than normal.

I was on the spot when the coming-together occurred and it seemed to me – and colleagues standing with me – that Ayrton was literally trying to bundle Alain out of the way. Given the line he was on, and how late he braked, there’s no way – had Prost not been there – he could have got through the chicane. Once Alain had hopped out of his car, I walked back down to the pits with him, and the first thing he said was, “I couldn’t believe he tried it on that lap – he was so far back. On some previous laps he’d been a lot closer…”

As a interesting sidenote to the bit I've highlighted in bold. On one of the extras on the Senna DVD's there is an extended interview with Prost about the incident at suzuka 1989. In it Prost says that people probably won't believe this, but he was toying with Senna immediately proceeding the crash. Because he wanted Senna to use up his tyres. Prost's plan was then in the last few laps to simply drive away from Senna & win the championship in style. I've said it many times here before, I just find Prost's intellegent mind blowing. Also prior to the suzuka 1989 race, IMO prost did give Senna fair warning that he wasn't prepared to leave the door open for senna anymore. It was Senna's mistake that he didn't take that warning seriously enough IMO.

As for the ’90 race, when Prost’s Ferrari was punched off the road at the first corner by Senna’s McLaren, it’s undeniable that Alain did jink left for a split-second, so as to give himself the best line into the corner. That hardly, though, constituted ‘a gap’, as Ayrton disingenuously claimed, and a year on, of course, he publicly admitted that he had simply taken Prost out – like most people, I thought that had been obvious from the start.

What said everything about that accident was the attitude of the McLaren personnel afterwards. Senna and Ron Dennis may have been celebrating this new World Championship, but some of their colleagues were, at best, embarrassed. When we got to Adelaide Senna did his famous angry interview with Jackie Stewart, and later that day one of the McLaren engineers whispered to me that the telemetry showed that Ayrton had never lifted for the corner at all – he simply took aim…

Source; http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/ask_n ... revisited/

midgrid · Post by **midgrid** » 24 Jan 2013, 21:15

What about this one?

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 24 Jan 2013, 22:03

midgrid wrote:What about this one?

Coulthard turned into him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ_6LUakao8

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 24 Jan 2013, 22:32

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
midgrid wrote:What about this one?

Coulthard turned into him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ_6LUakao8

Irvine. Coulthard may have ducked around the outside, but immediately after T1 his car was ahead, and Irvine got back alongside in the middle of the corner and then turned in on him when Coulthard was already on the kerb. Irvine was the one lunging rather than DC, so totally Irvine's fault.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1o4EkgMc-I

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 24 Jan 2013, 22:43

Trulli made the move in a ditch effort pass and lost the rear out from under him and spun into Sutil.
sooo... Trulli

this is a fun one. Our man the Indy/CART winner hailed for passionate driving, Turned F1 racer, turned NASCAR driver, turned Grand-Am part-timer... in a wreck at Indy. guess he couldn't get back into the clockwise groove like he used to... or could he?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foChFtE653Y
they show footage of it at 1:20

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 24 Jan 2013, 22:47

Stramala [kostas22] wrote:
UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
midgrid wrote:What about this one?

Coulthard turned into him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ_6LUakao8

Irvine. Coulthard may have ducked around the outside, but immediately after T1 his car was ahead, and Irvine got back alongside in the middle of the corner and then turned in on him when Coulthard was already on the kerb. Irvine was the one lunging rather than DC, so totally Irvine's fault.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1o4EkgMc-I

Both crashes involved Coulthard, and I can't tell if you're disagreeing with me thinking I was commenting on the video below said comment instead of above, or if you were commenting on the video I put.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 25 Jan 2013, 06:41

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
Stramala [kostas22] wrote:
UgncreativeUsergname wrote:Coulthard turned into him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ_6LUakao8

Irvine. Coulthard may have ducked around the outside, but immediately after T1 his car was ahead, and Irvine got back alongside in the middle of the corner and then turned in on him when Coulthard was already on the kerb. Irvine was the one lunging rather than DC, so totally Irvine's fault.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1o4EkgMc-I

Both crashes involved Coulthard, and I can't tell if you're disagreeing with me thinking I was commenting on the video below said comment instead of above, or if you were commenting on the video I put.

Only one of those involved Eddie Irvine, though.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 25 Jan 2013, 07:19

nome66 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foChFtE653Y
they show footage of it at 1:20

Tricky one indeed. On the one hand, Baron probably could have given Juan a bit more room at turn 2 and not chop him like he did, but at the same time, Juan may have been better served to back off by that point so I'd say that they're both at fault there. The fact that Baron went on like an absolute pork chop afterwards just made it absolute gold :lol:

Here's one from the V8 non-championship round at Albert Park a few years back. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82vgJLb5bRg

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 25 Jan 2013, 09:53

Wizzie wrote:Here's one from the V8 non-championship round at Albert Park a few years back. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82vgJLb5bRg

Kelly, every day of the week. Once Lowndes went down the inside he should have yielded. And then it was Junior's own fault he hit Lowndes' car, and Luff and Courtney got caught up when everyone got backed up.

Sticking with V8s, one of the most famous moments of recent history.

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 25 Jan 2013, 18:49

nome66 wrote:Trulli made the move in a ditch effort pass and lost the rear out from under him and spun into Sutil.
sooo... Trulli

this is a fun one. Our man the Indy/CART winner hailed for passionate driving, Turned F1 racer, turned NASCAR driver, turned Grand-Am part-timer... in a wreck at Indy. guess he couldn't get back into the clockwise groove like he used to... or could he?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foChFtE653Y
they show footage of it at 1:20

Montoya has done this twice to Clint Bowyer in one year so he (Montoya) has a history of cutting off drivers. Every time a driver is wrecked and Montoya is on the low line; it's almost always Montoya's fault unless other driver blames himself.

Gerudo Dragon · Post by **Gerudo Dragon** » 29 Jan 2013, 20:28

the Masked Lapwing wrote:Sticking with V8s, one of the most famous moments of recent history.

Seems to be Murphy's fault, looks like just didn't brake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_36379rdddY#t=112s

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 29 Jan 2013, 21:13

It's the dying car that ends with no damage. That would be Muller. Being a rolling chicane isn't good and having a car that is blocking at least four cars.

Probably the biggest wreck of them all. And several NASCAR champions and NASCAR Top 50 drivers of all time in various levels in the form of Geoffrey Bodine, Matt Kenseth, Randy Lajoie, Mark Martin, and Jeff Green.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcEvTcrI2Sg

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 29 Jan 2013, 21:43

Onxy Wrecked wrote:It's the dying car that ends with no damage. That would be Muller. Being a rolling chicane isn't good and having a car that is blocking at least four cars.

Probably the biggest wreck of them all. And several NASCAR champions and NASCAR Top 50 drivers of all time in various levels in the form of Geoffrey Bodine, Matt Kenseth, Randy Lajoie, Mark Martin, and Jeff Green.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcEvTcrI2Sg

Only one person can be blamed. Whoever was in 3rd and tapped the leader. The car that started to spin couldn't really do anything after he got the tap.

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 29 Jan 2013, 22:05

AdrianSutil wrote:
Onxy Wrecked wrote:It's the dying car that ends with no damage. That would be Muller. Being a rolling chicane isn't good and having a car that is blocking at least four cars.

Probably the biggest wreck of them all. And several NASCAR champions and NASCAR Top 50 drivers of all time in various levels in the form of Geoffrey Bodine, Matt Kenseth, Randy Lajoie, Mark Martin, and Jeff Green.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcEvTcrI2Sg

Only one person can be blamed. Whoever was in 3rd and tapped the leader. The car that started to spin couldn't really do anything after he got the tap.

That would Geoffrey Bodine in the 64. He actually was running about 8th or 9th but was 3rd in the picture.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 26 Apr 2013, 01:58

I think it's worth digging up this thread to post this pileup from the 2006 Clipsal 500

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 26 Apr 2013, 10:25

Wizzie wrote:I think it's worth digging up this thread to post this pileup from the 2006 Clipsal 500

That motoring insurance advert certainly popped up at the right moment :lol:

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 26 Apr 2013, 13:50

Wizzie wrote:I think it's worth digging up this thread to post this pileup from the 2006 Clipsal 500

I think most of the blame for that goes to Jason Richards. It was a risky place to try and overtake, and he wasn't fully alongside at the point of contact. I'm not sure about the state of the track there, if there was a lot of marbles, but either way I doubt Frosty could've given much more room without severely compromising his pace on the run up to the next corner, which could've caused an accident anyway. Fernandez had absolutely nowhere to go.

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 27 Apr 2013, 00:50

I disagree personally, Fernandez was way off the pace and should have gotten out the way instead trying to defend.

To be honest I forgot Fernandez even existed until then

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 27 Apr 2013, 00:53

eurobrun wrote:I disagree personally, Fernandez was way off the pace and should have gotten out the way instead trying to defend.

To be honest I forgot Fernandez even existed until then

To me, it looked more like Fernandez was trying to pass the slowing Frosty rather than try and defend from Richards.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 27 Apr 2013, 01:31

eurobrun wrote:I disagree personally, Fernandez was way off the pace and should have gotten out the way instead trying to defend.

And where would he have gone? It was either take the line he did or go straight into Frosty. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but that was a battle for position, was it not? Why should Fernandez have to bail out just because Richards tried an overly ambitious overtake at an awkward time?

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 27 Apr 2013, 01:46

Fernandez was a backmarker for his whole V8 career, I am not 100% sure bit I think he was being lapped.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 27 Apr 2013, 01:50

eurobrun wrote:Fernandez was a backmarker for his whole V8 career, I am not 100% sure bit I think he was being lapped.

Yeah, Fernandez was being lapped at the time, as was the HRT car directly in front of them. There was a lot of lapped traffic mixed up in all that on the restart. However, I don't know whether Fernandez and the HRT would have been racing Frosty or lapping him.

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 27 Apr 2013, 02:00

eurobrun wrote:Fernandez was a backmarker for his whole V8 career, I am not 100% sure bit I think he was being lapped.

If I recall correctly JR was fighting back through to field after starting near the rear of the grid having been ridiculously quick all weekend. If Fernandez was being lapped, he would have stayed behind Frosty. I reckon Richards was at fault though, turn 3 is a bad place to make a pass at the best of times. I would be willing to bet that Jose would never have seen him coming, knowing how big the blind spot is in those cars.

Although now that I look at the results, Fernandez was excluded, so it seems the stewards thought he was to blame :lol:

go_Rubens · Post by **go_Rubens** » 27 Apr 2013, 02:09

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
eurobrun wrote:I disagree personally, Fernandez was way off the pace and should have gotten out the way instead trying to defend.

And where would he have gone? It was either take the line he did or go straight into Frosty. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but that was a battle for position, was it not? Why should Fernandez have to bail out just because Richards tried an overly ambitious overtake at an awkward time?

Exactly! Nowhere to go and it might as well just be a racing incident. Wizzie said Fernandez was a backmarker and wasn't racing for position, but he had nowhere to go.

Post by **Londoner** » 27 Apr 2013, 12:45

A Matt Neal vs Jason Plato special for you all.

takagi_for_the_win · Post by **takagi_for_the_win** » 27 Apr 2013, 12:49

East Londoner wrote:A Matt Neal vs Jason Plato special for you all.

I can't really judge anything for that, given I spent all four and a bit minutes absolutely wetting myself :lol:

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 27 Apr 2013, 13:26

They were both at fault. Plato was being his usual way-too-aggressive self, and Neal was all too happy to play into his hands.

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 27 Apr 2013, 21:42

East Londoner wrote:A Matt Neal vs Jason Plato special for you all.

I'd like to say Plato was going too slow in an unsportsman like manner. Neal kept on hitting Plato. I'd say that's mostly Plato given the fact Plato was already the pole sitter so why is he going so slow?

midgrid · Post by **midgrid** » 28 Apr 2013, 13:36

Here's another classic BTCC moment!

Bonus: post-race fireworks.

Post by **Londoner** » 29 Apr 2013, 20:52

For Reid-Neal, I think it's a racing incident. Neal was in Reid's blindspot.

As for Reid-Thompson, 100% Reid's fault.

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 01 May 2013, 13:43

this speaks for itself

Gerudo Dragon · Post by **Gerudo Dragon** » 30 May 2013, 19:58

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlmv97kE1Ec#t=41s

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 31 May 2013, 02:43

nome66 wrote:this speaks for itself

I would say Piquet Jr. stuck his nose where he shouldn't have.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 31 May 2013, 12:22

nome66 wrote:this speaks for itself

Glad to see that Piquet bad blood is still alive and kicking! :lol: