F1 Careers Graveyard

[jackanderton]

Ok, so Sutil came 9th in the Championship, essentially 1st of the midfield runners. There was no realistic opportunity of beating Vettel, Webber, Button, Hamilton, Alonso, Massa, Rosberg and Schumacher, but he beat his teammate and everyone else on the grid.

The year saw him bagging 6 top 8 finishes, equalling 2010s effort but arguably in a car that was uncompetitive in the first third of the season.

His achievement was noteworthy, but it seems to have been deemed unremarkable, or something within the capacity of anyone else to do. It looks like he might be out of the sport if Williams decide not to take him on.

Does the sport just have too many competent/mediocre drivers? Petrov, Heidfeld, Barrichello, Senna, Buemi, Alguersuari and possibly Sutil. A bit of a graveyard of F1 careers. They've all been switched for people who look to have a mixture of finance/sponsors and the exciting rookie/youth factor.

[AdrianSutil]

It's all well and good saying most of the midfield runners are being kicked out because thyre just good enough for the midfield. But what about the front-running guys? Do Webber and Massa deserve their seats for 2012? Should Schumacher really have come back? Raikkonen making a possibly I'll-fated return? Or how about the likes of Trulli, Glock and Maldonado keeping their drives? Trulli is clearly passed it, even if his heart is in the right place, Glock has looked about as disinterested as I'd ever seen him and Maldonado is ONLY there because of PDVSA.

That's 7 drivers I think shouldn't be in Formula 1 next season. Buemi, Alguersuari, Petrov, Senna and Sutil all deserve one of those seats at least. So it's not all about the midfield, there's drivers up and down the grid that have no place being where they are. Apart, I admit, from maybe Schumacher. He's really impressed me this year, but he still should never have come back in the first place.

But sadly, it seems money/contacts plays the bigger part. Vergne and Ricciardo are only at Toro Rosso because of their connections to Red Bull and Grosjean is back at Lotus because of his close friendship with Boullier. Add to that Maldnado is effectively keeping Williams from going to the wall and you have a sorry state of affairs within the midfield.

[Eryx]

Na i dont agree to be honest. . .Sutil and Petrov will stay in F1 even if they are out of the sport for a year The difference between Sutil,Petrov,Jaime,Buemi and Senna as a matter of fact compared to Heidfeld is Heidfeld has had numerous attempts in F1 and just not been good enough to stay....Rubeno's problem is he doesnt have the money.

Sutil is impressive and i think the fact he finished 9th will help get something even if it isnt this year but next.
Petrov is also impressive (podium in Australia) fact is i think Renault will regret hiring Kimi (My own personal opinion) due to the fact hell drive it not get good enough results and leave in quick succession. . .
Jaime is sort of confusing, rumor has it hes going to oust Webber but as someone pointed out why fire him from Helmuts team then a year later hire him in RBR.
Buemi is sort of the same.
Senna hasnt had enough time to show what hes worth, although he has made some really dumb mistakes (Brazil with Schumacher)
In sense if we dont see them this year, we should see them next year. . .they may just go for a reserve role which is a bit of a let down for them.

[AndreaModa]

The problem with Sutil is that he's been with the same team for Christ-knows how long now, and apart from his 4th place in Monza, hasn't really achieved that much. Sure the team have slowly brought themselves back from the brink, propping up the grid, but from his initial promise, he certainly hasn't set the world alight.

The same could be argued of Buemi, he's had three years at Toro Rosso, but what has he done? He's older, and more experienced than Alguersuari, yet the Spaniard was frequently matching him and beating him during 2010 and 11. It is perhaps surprising therefore that Jaime has got the boot, but I believe he has a substantially greater chance of landing a drive elsewhere than Buemi does.

I think the same could be said of Petrov. He's had two seasons so far, over which he's shown good improvement and some good results, like his podium early on last year. I also think he'll be driving in F1 in the future. Maybe not this year, but he'll certainly return.

Senna has never really done anything worthy of note. He was average at HRT against Chandhok, Yamamoto and Klien, and he wasn't much of a match for Petrov for most of the time he was at Renault. He's secured the drives he's had so far mostly through his name, and the money he brings, and that alone isn't enough to keep him in F1, he needs to show some promise too.

Heidfeld and Barrichello are both veterans who've had too many chances and not made the most of them. They are both now past their best and will continually find that as their careers go on, the disappointments and frustration will only increase. Aside from their knowledge and development experience, they are probably the most unattractive out of the entire bunch.

Of all the drivers mentioned, I think only Sutil, Alguersuari. and Petrov stand a chance of securing drives in the future. The rest can go on the scrapheap.

[madmark1974]

I have to say I do agree, but we have to bear in mind that most, if not all, of the drivers in F1 are there because they do have a talent, maybe as yet unproven in F1, or maybe have not been
sucessful for a few years, but nearly everyone has been champion of something-or-other in the past. Ok, so a bit of money helps, but there is inherent talent there.

Ok, so if Yamamoto or Kartikeyan took (for example) Massa's seat things would be different, but even Maldonado was a GP2 champion. Just a few years ago, when you had to recruit certain
drivers in exchange for an engine deal (step forward Nakajimas JR and SR), there were a few underserving drivers, but very few examples since the manufacturers left.

I would say out of all the drivers, the one with the worst junior CV would be Kobayashi ... And he only really got his break in F1 because Glock crashed and hurt himself or was ill or something (I forget)
and he was Toyota's reserve ...

[jackanderton]

For a bit of context, this thread did start as a What Now Adrian Sutil thread, but the widening to discuss others helps put things in context so thanks for everyone's replies so far!

Out of everyone mentioned, Sutil is the hardest done by, especially given his loyalty and hard work. In terms of his achievements '4th at Monza' is to underplay it, he's helped drag a backmarker team to become regular point scorers and nearly always achieves the maximum for the car, and quite often with good strategy and planning, above expectations. He wouldn't be 9th otherwise.

I guess as he's German (lots of those right now), 28 (a dull age if you aren't a former WDC apparently), and low on glitz and sponsor money, he was a sitting duck in this target. I just don't think it's fair.

As far as Heidfeld goes, I agree he may be too old, but his capabilities shouldn't be underplayed- he was doing well for Renault, and BMW before that, equalling Kubica. Barrichello may be a bit of a sad story but he's lucky Brawn prolonged his career anyway. Alguersuari and Buemi I don't understand- what's the point of a young driver programme if you sack them while they're learning and improving? Scrapheap at 23 seems a bit mean. They both had some very good days and never really the car to do anything special. Petrov deserves a drive somewhere. Senna...hmmm. Not really.

[jackanderton]

I've compiled a list based on achievements/performances in F1 who I think ought to be there on merit. Vaguely rather than tightly ordered but like the pop charts cos I am a slave to gimmickery

Vettel (-)
Button (^)
Alonso (-)
Hamilton (\/)
Schumacher (^)
Rosberg (\/)
Kubica (\/)
Massa (\/)
Webber (\/)
Raikkonen (\/)
Sutil (-)
Di Resta (NE)
Kobayashi (-)
Kovalainen (-)
Perez (NE)
Heidfeld (\/)
Petrov (-)
Alguersuari (-)

---

After that it becomes more vague with fringe drivers who have never really proven themselves:

Hulkenburg
Buemi
Riccardo
Glock
Maldonado
Chandhok
Senna
Grosjean
Liuzzi
Klien
D'Ambrosio

----

Probably should leave/shouldn't return:

Barrichello
Trulli
Yamamoto
Piquet Jr
Nakajima
Karthikeyan
Di Grassi

---

I appreciate than 4 or 5 new drivers a year with a grid of this size is healthy and keeps things interesting, but my first list healthily accomodates that. Well, it isn't a merit-based system unfortunately.

[Shadaza]

I feel sorry for Buemi, of all the drivers I think he had the unluckiest 2011.

He was consistently faster then Alguersuari on saturdays but time after time something would go wrong on the Sunday largley not Buemi's fault, be Perez crashing in to him or a suicidal stategy or a reliability problem. I still rate Buemi better then Alguersuari, indeed Buemi was comftably ahead of alguersuari at the early stage of the season.


As for Sutil, Force India found themselves in the position where they have 3 drivers all worthy of a race seat, with only 2 spots avaliable. The best 3 possible midfield drivers?
The fact Sutil is not in a seat is a crime, not really Force Indias fault, Williams should sign him

Barrichello, Trulli and MSC. Probably deserve to call it a day....

[mario]

The same could be argued of Buemi, he's had three years at Toro Rosso, but what has he done? He's older, and more experienced than Alguersuari, yet the Spaniard was frequently matching him and beating him during 2010 and 11. It is perhaps surprising therefore that Jaime has got the boot, but I believe he has a substantially greater chance of landing a drive elsewhere than Buemi does.

One thing Buemi has done is help Red Bull Racing out with testing, particularly with Red Bull Technology's simulator work (there is even a video IIRC of him doing a track guide for Red Bull Racing in their simulator).
In fact, one reason why Marko's decision to throw Buemi out looks harsh is because Buemi received the message midway through a simulated test drive of the RB8 - though it might also go part of the way to explaining why Red Bull threw Buemi and Alguersuari out now that the odds of them getting a seat for 2012 are so slim. If Red Bull have been using one or both Toro Rosso drivers to virtually test the RB8, and either one of them happened to know something about the design of the RB8, forcing them to sit on the sidelines means that nobody else can get hold of that information until it is out of date and no use to anybody else.

[FullMetalJack]

I honestly thought this thread was about Toyota.

[Eryx]

After that it becomes more vague with fringe drivers who have never really proven themselves:

Hulkenburg - No offence he should be higher.
Buemi - More unlucky then anything else.
Riccardo - He has proven himself..He was wiping the floor with Liuzzi
Glock - In a Virgin...im sorry but there rubbish.
Maldonado - If Hamilton hadnt of knocked him out of Monaco....Wouldnt he of beat Rubens in the tables? Thats impresive in a rubbish car.
Chandhok - Hasnt had long enough to prove himself.
Senna - I Want to wave byebye to him if im honest...your name isnt enough.
Grosjean - Deserves more of a chance. Putting him in mid 09 with no testing not really fair.
Liuzzi - Should go byebye. . .
Klien - Definitly deserves more of a chance.
D'Ambrosio - Same, You cant judge him on 1 season in a team that finished last....twice in a row.

----

Probably should leave/shouldn't return:

Barrichello - Do not agree . . .Williams isnt the best car to be in at the moment and he showed flair in brazil and speed.
Trulli - Slow old man all he does is moan, hes like my grandad.
Yamamoto - Probably? More like leave now your slow!
Piquet Jr - Bye
Nakajima - Deserves more of a shot, he was usually on turn to finish in the points in 2009 but usually always either had team issues or someone hit him.
Karthikeyan - Bye
Di Grassi - Cant judge him on 1 season in a virgin!




Theres my little ad ons to it.

[tristan1117]

Unfortunately, talent is wasted in F1 all the time. This being the F1 Rejects forums, we have all seen that good drivers are either unlucky or get dumped for no apparent reason (Eric van de Poele is a prime example of that). Sutil is just the latest in a long list of good drivers who got booted out for someone newer.

[RonDenisDeletraz]

Unfortunately, talent is wasted in F1 all the time. This being the F1 Rejects forums, we have all seen that good drivers are either unlucky or get dumped for no apparent reason (Eric van de Poele is a prime example of that). Sutil is just the latest in a long list of good drivers who got booted out for someone newer.

I would even put Petrov in that catergory, getting replaced with GGGRRRSSSSJJJNNN

[TomWazzleshaw]

After that it becomes more vague with fringe drivers who have never really proven themselves:
Maldonado - If Hamilton hadnt of knocked him out of Monaco....Wouldnt he of beat Rubens in the tables? Thats impresive in a rubbish car.

Once you remember though that Maldonado has ALWAYS been freakishly good around Monaco (Yet just as freakishly crap everywhere else ) It's actually to be expected.

[Phoenix]

Adrian Sutil didn't deserve to be booted just like that. Yes, his start to the season was patchy, but he really redeemed himself in the second half of the season, to the point he was only 5 points behind his previous season's tally despite driving a generally inferior car. SFR is taking a high gamble with the di Resta-Hülkenberg pairing, since they don't have a lot of experience and they will need someone who can help develop the car.

I was expecting Buemi to be dumped in favour of Ricciardo, since the Swiss finished behind Alguersuari in the standings and Ricciardo impressed in the HRT, but dumping Alguersuari for Vergne was a mistake. Vergne has very little experience to speak off, and they should've tried to pull off the same party trick they did with Ricciardo or at least let him do Friday sessions with the team before deciding if Alguersuari deserved the chop or was ready to jump to RBR for 2013 and putting the Frenchman in the other STR.

Now, Petrov's sacking was another surprise. He was inconsistent throughout 2011, but if there was anything he managed to show, it was speed. To replace him with Räikkönen is very risky, especially considering the Finn's retrospect. Time will tell if it was a good decision.

As for d'Ambrosio, no surprises here. For me, he was little better than di Grassi and the fact he was matching Glock early on had more to do with the German being flustered about the mediocrity Virgin served up.

Sutil should go to Williams, I think he's the best driver available for that seat. He brings experience, he's become a rounded driver and he's not old like Barrichello. Alguersuari may or may not land the HRT drive. Petrov should look at a third driver role somewhere. Buemi and d'Ambrosio are out for 2012 for sure.

[TomWazzleshaw]

Now, Petrov's sacking was another surprise. He was inconsistent throughout 2011, but if there was anything he managed to show, it was speed. To replace him with Räikkönen is very risky, especially considering the Finn's retrospect. Time will tell if it was a good decision.

Wasn't Grosjean the one who replaced Petrov? Because if I'm not mistaken, Petrov was expected to keep his seat right up until the Grosjean announcement.

[jackanderton]

If Sutil joins Williams and they get their act together, at least back to 2010 standard (so so so depressing that that's now something for Williams to AIM for) then I guess he could still be roundabout where he is at the moment.

I think in the midfield if he's shown to pull results out of the bag with a weak car then he might get one final chance to join a bigger team.

I hope this has nothing to do with him glassing Eric Lux in the face.

[jackanderton]

Now, Petrov's sacking was another surprise. He was inconsistent throughout 2011, but if there was anything he managed to show, it was speed. To replace him with Räikkönen is very risky, especially considering the Finn's retrospect. Time will tell if it was a good decision.

Wasn't Grosjean the one who replaced Petrov? Because if I'm not mistaken, Petrov was expected to keep his seat right up until the Grosjean announcement.

Yes, how does Grosjean get a drive when Petrov did better than expected, while hot-shot Romain completely underwhelmed to the extent of making Nelson Piquet Jr look preferable?

[Minardi Man]

Now, Petrov's sacking was another surprise. He was inconsistent throughout 2011, but if there was anything he managed to show, it was speed. To replace him with Räikkönen is very risky, especially considering the Finn's retrospect. Time will tell if it was a good decision.

Wasn't Grosjean the one who replaced Petrov? Because if I'm not mistaken, Petrov was expected to keep his seat right up until the Grosjean announcement.

Yes, how does Grosjean get a drive when Petrov did better than expected, while hot-shot Romain completely underwhelmed to the extent of making Nelson Piquet Jr look preferable?

If you're not being cynical, he's had very impressive lower formulae results since 09, if you are being cynical, it's his relationship with Boullier

[David AGS]

Probably more of a HRT thread, but Sala pretty much ruled out Alguesuari, so that rules him out. They need 'support' as they are a small team, but they are apparently in advanced talks with several.

But, yes, Alguesuari showed brilliance at times. I think he was/is similar to Christian Klien, a lot of potential, backed by Red Bull, and IMO I used to see them both flying in street circuits. Two clear examples for me, Klien in Monaco O4-05? running 3rd with a couple laps to go they DNF with a gearbox, and the Spaniard qualifying 11th in Singapore (09-10?) and was quick all weekend, would have scored big points, but had a problem pre-race and started from the back

[QuickYoda41]

Klien's big race in Monaco was in 2006.

[TomWazzleshaw]

Klien's big race in Monaco was in 2006.

Ah yes, the day when he could have, should have and would have finished 3rd if it wasn't for the fact that was back in the day when Red Bulls (and Toro Rossos for that matter) usually spent their time on the side of the track on fire.

[Faustus]

Klien's big race in Monaco was in 2006.

And that was the race where the Red Bulls had 'Superman Returns' sponsorship and Klien was wearing a special racing suit modelled on Superman's costume. Much cooler than Coulthard, who wore his normal suit (but at least added a red cape to it on the podium):

http://www.motorsport.com/all/photo/mai ... hristian-1