Why is leaving the track not punished?

[sswishbone]

In China Vettel left the track in quali on the final turn to carry more speed over the line, in quali at Turkey he did the same around 9/10 to carry more onto the straight, in Australia he overtook Button by crossing the lines. In china Massa repeatedly crossed the line out of the pits and didn't get a penalty. I just don't get it, rule 20.3 clearly states a driver cannot leave the track and gain an advantage. If you leave the track and overtake a car or carry more speed into a corner than you would by using the track lined out, that has to be an advantage surely? what's everyone elses take on this?

[DanielPT]

I think all those cases were judged as not gaining an advantage since they covered more ground and went with a dirtier line, losing grip on their tires. Given all those parameters it is probably considered as an driving error and thus probably a disadvantage by itself. So they didn't got penalties. Perhaps in Massa case he got a warning.

[sswishbone]

Not so sure about gaining a place (in the case of Vettel) as not gaining an advantage but I can see the ppint, but it reminds me of spa 2009 when raikonnen straight-lined La Source and hit kers to blast into the lead and didn't get punished. Apart from Rosberg's penalty in Singapore 2009 when has a driver bene punished for it recently? (and incidentally, he gained no advantage either as he went straight back over and it was under the safety car)

[DanielPT]

Not so sure about gaining a place (in the case of Vettel) as not gaining an advantage but I can see the ppint, but it reminds me of spa 2009 when raikonnen straight-lined La Source and hit kers to blast into the lead and didn't get punished.

This is the only explanation for Raikkonen not being penalized. Most of the people thought that he gained an unfair advantage but, if not helped by KERS, he probably would have been worse than if he followed the line. The stewards probably though that it was Fisi though luck in not having KERS.

Apart from Rosberg's penalty in Singapore 2009 when has a driver bene punished for it recently? (and incidentally, he gained no advantage either as he went straight back over and it was under the safety car)

I can't remember more recent penalties for crossing the line while leaving the pits.
I think Massa was not penalized because he only crossed the white inside line which is overlooked. There were 2 lines, so my guess is that had he crossed the outside line (the one furthest from the pit lane exit) he would have been punished. FIA sometimes ignores these lines by common sense (remember the pit entry line at Interlagos. A case to the point and incidentally a precedent was when Massa was overtaken by Alonso in the pit lane entry of China last year. That move, made while a bit off track, was judged legal.

[Tealy]

Stating the obvious I know but Button was punished for overtaking Massa whilst off the track in Melbourne. I think in general the stewards are more lenient these days than in years past and I for one am pleased as a result. I hate seeing drivers penalised constantly.

[DanielPT]

Stating the obvious I know but Button was punished for overtaking Massa whilst off the track in Melbourne. I think in general the stewards are more lenient these days than in years past and I for one am pleased as a result. I hate seeing drivers penalised constantly.

Thing is, that, while cutting chicanes is a clear penalty because in almost every case you gain an advantage, going outside the track by going wider or straightening the line is murky waters. In this case it is not clear that an advantage is gained since you will be travelling further than the usual racing line, which is more or less considered optimal because of corner apexes. You should also consider kerbs and run-off tarmac that has low grip. Stewards might investigate this but normally they drop it in the end. Think Petrov in Malaysia, he went wide while possibly going faster and was dully punished by a high kerb. Nevertheless I have a vague notion that someone already got penalized for going outside the track and gaining advantage but I can't recall distinct situations.

Anyway, a simpler and possibly truer explanation for some situations being penalized while others aren't is pure stewards incompetence.

[dr-baker]

Thing is, that, while cutting chicanes is a clear penalty because in almost every case you gain an advantage, going outside the track by going wider or straightening the line is murky waters. In this case it is not clear that an advantage is gained since you will be travelling further than the usual racing line, which is more or less considered optimal because of corner apexes. You should also consider kerbs and run-off tarmac that has low grip. Stewards might investigate this but normally they drop it in the end. Think Petrov in Malaysia, he went wide while possibly going faster and was dully punished by a high kerb. Nevertheless I have a vague notion that someone already got penalized for going outside the track and gaining advantage but I can't recall distinct situations.

Anyway, a simpler and possibly truer explanation for some situations being penalized while others aren't is pure stewards incompetence.

In BTCC support races in the UK, I often hear of drivers getting penalised for "exceeding track limits." At Brands Hatch, this most often happens for running wide at Paddock Hill and Graham Hill bends.

[Myrvold]

One good reason: When people DO get penalized, there are a lot of complains for "making it imossible to fight side by side".

[Ed24]

I think the limits are discussed in the drivers breifing.

Not fully related, but I think Hamilton should also have got a reprimand for squeezing Massa towards the pitlane, including pitcrew after Massa's release alongside him. We saw Vettel do this in China 2010, and I think it's a bad precedent to allow this to happen

[Tealy]

I think the limits are discussed in the drivers breifing.

Not fully related, but I think Hamilton should also have got a reprimand for squeezing Massa towards the pitlane, including pitcrew after Massa's release alongside him. We saw Vettel do this in China 2010, and I think it's a bad precedent to allow this to happen

Agreed. As much as Massa should have backed off a bit sooner (in my opinion) there was no need for Hamilton to try and scare him into it. He should have just kept driving straight and he would have come out in front. There is no need for this weaving we sometimes see in the pitlane.

[eagleash]

In BTCC support races in the UK, I often hear of drivers getting penalised for "exceeding track limits." At Brands Hatch, this most often happens for running wide at Paddock Hill and Graham Hill bends.

Particularly true at Brands before the bit of "old track" on the outside of Paddock was grassed in a few years ago. It provided almost double track width towards the bottom of paddock & penalties often resulted as it was perceived to allow more speed to be carried into Paddock. Running wide on the old track.....not a good idea.....

[dr-baker]

In BTCC support races in the UK, I often hear of drivers getting penalised for "exceeding track limits." At Brands Hatch, this most often happens for running wide at Paddock Hill and Graham Hill bends.

Particularly true at Brands before the bit of "old track" on the outside of Paddock was grassed in a few years ago. It provided almost double track width towards the bottom of paddock & penalties often resulted as it was perceived to allow more speed to be carried into Paddock. Running wide on the old track.....not a good idea.....

No, I can imagine not...

[Cynon]

Not so sure about gaining a place (in the case of Vettel) as not gaining an advantage but I can see the ppint, but it reminds me of spa 2009 when raikonnen straight-lined La Source and hit kers to blast into the lead and didn't get punished. Apart from Rosberg's penalty in Singapore 2009 when has a driver bene punished for it recently? (and incidentally, he gained no advantage either as he went straight back over and it was under the safety car)

What car was Kimi driving? A Ferrari. That should explain itself really...

[Reverie Planetarian]

It's contextual. On today's tarmac-runoff-area-heavy circuits, especially if you have lots of aggressive drivers and blocking, somebody's going to leave the track and be in a position where they can rejoin the race without a second thought. Gaining ground and if the move appeared intentional are context by which leaving the track is either excused or not.

Take a non-F1 example: the famous Alex Zanardi overtake in CART at Laguna Seca. He didn't just clip the Corkscrew, you could argue he cut that corner pretty badly. However, it was either that or cause a crash, and so that was allowed to go through.

[dnhrudi]

I felt i was being punished every time I left Silverstone.....

[Phoenix]

This is something of a thorny issue. Many people would say grass run-offs are not very safe (let alone gravel traps), and, in addition, there are times (mainly at the start of races) that you can't tell if a driver has left the track and used the asphalt run-off to get and advantage or to avoid crashing with other drivers. I've read in a comment posted by mario that there is a special asphalt coating that is more abrasive with the tyres. Maybe that'd be the ideal solution (something that, in addition, slows the cars a bit).

[Cynon]

Take a non-F1 example: the famous Alex Zanardi overtake in CART at Laguna Seca. He didn't just clip the Corkscrew, you could argue he cut that corner pretty badly. However, it was either that or cause a crash, and so that was allowed to go through.

I'll have to check again, but I don't think he ever had more than two wheels off the track.

As far as a solution to runoff areas, I have one, it's called a wall with a SAFER barrier. Try that out.

[Jeroen Krautmeir]

Take a non-F1 example: the famous Alex Zanardi overtake in CART at Laguna Seca. He didn't just clip the Corkscrew, you could argue he cut that corner pretty badly. However, it was either that or cause a crash, and so that was allowed to go through.

I'll have to check again, but I don't think he ever had more than two wheels off the track.

As far as a solution to runoff areas, I have one, it's called a wall with a SAFER barrier. Try that out.

[DanielPT]

Take a non-F1 example: the famous Alex Zanardi overtake in CART at Laguna Seca. He didn't just clip the Corkscrew, you could argue he cut that corner pretty badly. However, it was either that or cause a crash, and so that was allowed to go through.

I'll have to check again, but I don't think he ever had more than two wheels off the track.

As far as a solution to runoff areas, I have one, it's called a wall with a SAFER barrier. Try that out.

At least he had two wheels on tarmac...

[DonTirri]

There's one thing I've always wondered about the Corkscrew... could a modern F1 car even MAKE the corner in one piece?

[dr-baker]

There's one thing I've always wondered about the Corkscrew... could a modern F1 car even MAKE the corner in one piece?

I believe a Toyota made it round a few years ago and set a decently competitive time...

[Cynon]

Take a non-F1 example: the famous Alex Zanardi overtake in CART at Laguna Seca. He didn't just clip the Corkscrew, you could argue he cut that corner pretty badly. However, it was either that or cause a crash, and so that was allowed to go through.

I'll have to check again, but I don't think he ever had more than two wheels off the track.

As far as a solution to runoff areas, I have one, it's called a wall with a SAFER barrier. Try that out.

Beast mode engaged.

I think a Toyota F1 car holds the Laguna Seca lap record, so I think they could make it around in one piece. It's a shame that, Corkscrew aside, Laguna Seca isn't all that exciting.

[DanielPT]

There's one thing I've always wondered about the Corkscrew... could a modern F1 car even MAKE the corner in one piece?

I believe a Toyota made it round a few years ago and set a decently competitive time...

Meh... It was only a tenth and a half quicker than a 6 year old (at the time, make it 11 today) CART car...

[Myrvold]

I think a Toyota F1 car holds the Laguna Seca lap record, so I think they could make it around in one piece. It's a shame that, Corkscrew aside, Laguna Seca isn't all that exciting.

Didn't Bourdais drive faster in a CART?

[Jeroen Krautmeir]

I think a Toyota F1 car holds the Laguna Seca lap record, so I think they could make it around in one piece. It's a shame that, Corkscrew aside, Laguna Seca isn't all that exciting.

Didn't Bourdais drive faster in a CART?

I hate to be particular but it was a CCWS

[DemocalypseNow]

I think a Toyota F1 car holds the Laguna Seca lap record, so I think they could make it around in one piece. It's a shame that, Corkscrew aside, Laguna Seca isn't all that exciting.

Didn't Bourdais drive faster in a CART?

HWNSNBM drove faster in a kart.

[Phoenix]

I think a Toyota F1 car holds the Laguna Seca lap record, so I think they could make it around in one piece. It's a shame that, Corkscrew aside, Laguna Seca isn't all that exciting.

Didn't Bourdais drive faster in a CART?

HWNSNBM was faster crawling around the circuit.

Fixed.

[Myrvold]

I think a Toyota F1 car holds the Laguna Seca lap record, so I think they could make it around in one piece. It's a shame that, Corkscrew aside, Laguna Seca isn't all that exciting.

Didn't Bourdais drive faster in a CART?

I hate to be particular but it was a CCWS

Nothing to hate! A lesson learned is always a good thing!