Grand Prix Rejects

Eryx · Post by **Eryx** » 19 Oct 2010, 12:49

Well as in F1 2010 we all know 3 new teams have turned up,my question is issit even worth HRT turning up for a grand prix event...seeing as they have no updates on the car and as said in your review something i didnt even know the rear wing has not changed since bahrain granted the team didnt have the best birth what with no testing and such...but the HRT is despite being difficult to drive a quite reliable car...much more reliable then the virgin cars i know they had 1 single upgrade but that was taken of because of weight and regulations i believe,thing is if your not going to upgrade your car the only thing your doing is turning up for the GP itself...where as Virgin and Lotus ( granted lotus have stopped devlopment and are working on there 2011 car which is fair enough) at least theyve stated what there going to do...with HRT they havent...they just turn up race ..finish or breakdown and thats it...dont get me wrong...i like the fact we have new teams but we seem to have 2 teams doing something and 1 turning into a forti...obviously not as fat...or as yellow...but i just find it pointless...why turn up if your going to do nothing...i presume its money but issit just the fact they would lose money if they withdraw...i know this may seem stupid to u guys cos ur all very smart but its got me baffled...with the 107% rule comin in for 2011 it would make more sense to concentrate on the 2011 car seeing as i think HRT wouldnt of even qualified for 7 of the races so far i believe...

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 19 Oct 2010, 13:53

Welcome aboard, Eryx!

As long as HRT don't become dangerous for their drivers and other participants (as in botching repairs or running sub-standard parts), they have the right to be there. They're a laugh. And I personally get to tweet #gohomecolinkolles many times over every fortnight, which is good for a laugh if you're into that sort of humour.

By the way - we're into grammar, spelling and punctuation, so you might want to revise that post style. It's nothing much, but our other mod is a copy editor, a real General von Paulus of proper writing.

Tealy · Post by **Tealy** » 19 Oct 2010, 17:03

I must say I'm not sure what HRT are getting out of this season. With Virgin and Lotus you can see progress but HRT have a massive battle to make the grid in 2011 and if I'm being honest I don't think they will make it.

Which brings me to the OP's question, why race in 2010 when you're achieving nothing and you won't make the grid next season. Well assuming that they haven't hidden a massive plan (and some decent cash) we can safely assume that HRT in it's current guise will not make the 2011 grid. This makes me wonder if they are just holding on while looking for major investment from sponsors or perhaps even a total buyout of the team. Beyond that maybe there is a punishment for failing to complete a season but I'm not sure on that myself. Hopefully we will hear some news soon that confirms they will be able to get a car on the grid (preferably 2 new cars) for 2011.

Eryx · Post by **Eryx** » 19 Oct 2010, 17:20

Thank you for welcoming me,
sorry for the bad grammar im actually horrifcally dyslexic in puncuation i can spell but no clue in the puncuation side of things,but ill try!

Thank you Tealy you kind of just made sense of what i wrote...wow looking back it does look hard to read...but yeah thats what i mean,my big problem is a team with funding should be able to do it,such as Stefan GP or other various ones. The fact is why have a team thats doing nothing and is ultimatly annoying drivers, when you can have a team that has the right funding and sponsorship to do something worthwhile.

Personally i think saying Bruno Senna is bad or good for this season is Irrelevant we can only really judge him on his teammate and due to the fact Chandok was a rookie as well we couldnt really compare how good he was and Yamamoto who is (no offence to his fans) slow, we cant really judge how good they are until they have a car half decent enough to prove it,i just dont want senna to be a profile on this website that would be horrible, If say HRT stay in and survive and go on exactly the way they have done next season what with no upgrades,we may see Sakon Yamamoto becoming the new Luca Badoer the difference being...Sakon is slow!!!.

I imagine in 2011 we will see Lotus overtaking Toro Rosso,with how far they are ahead STILL of Virgin and the fact they have no upgrades on the way,i find that very very impressive,if they do what they did this season onto next season only this time upgrade for everytime,we may see Lotus overtake the backmidfield Virgin i dont think will acheive it,they may possibly touch the backmidfield but not overtake.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 19 Oct 2010, 17:51

Eryx wrote:I imagine in 2011 we will see Lotus overtaking Toro Rosso

Interesting thoughts, they could well do, especially with the new technology they'll be getting for 2011, they won't want to build a great car otherwise Heikki will suck

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 19 Oct 2010, 19:05

redbulljack14 wrote:
Eryx wrote:I imagine in 2011 we will see Lotus overtaking Toro Rosso

Interesting thoughts, they could well do, especially with the new technology they'll be getting for 2011, they won't want to build a great car otherwise Heikki will suck

If Red Bull do sell STR as 'tis rumoured they would like to, then it would be interesting to see what effect new ownership has on the team.
In respect of HRT, I too think 2011 must be in doubt. Is there, however, the question of a financial penalty if they don't turn up, (even if somewhat unenforceable) & there's always the chance of a chaotic race somewhere yielding just one point!

(Korea/rain/dodgy track surface

).

Eryx · Post by **Eryx** » 19 Oct 2010, 19:39

In response to eagleash:

well its plausable,as with every race this one is just more likely, the truth is if they do manage a point it would gift them 10th in the championship that is if the lotus and virgin cars do not finish as well that could gift them ALLOT of money that they need to survive 2011...but races are races and they are slow...they just have to hope.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 19 Oct 2010, 19:51

Eryx wrote:In response to eagleash:

well its plausable,as with every race this one is just more likely, the truth is if they do manage a point it would gift them 10th in the championship that is if the lotus and virgin cars do not finish as well that could gift them ALLOT of money that they need to survive 2011...but races are races and they are slow...they just have to hope.

Exactly.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 19 Oct 2010, 20:07

eagleash wrote:
Eryx wrote:In response to eagleash:

well its plausable,as with every race this one is just more likely, the truth is if they do manage a point it would gift them 10th in the championship that is if the lotus and virgin cars do not finish as well that could gift them ALLOT of money that they need to survive 2011...but races are races and they are slow...they just have to hope.

Exactly.

Does only the top 10 teams in the championship still get travel benefits like back when there were 15+ teams

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 19 Oct 2010, 20:31

HRT is a waste of time, and a wast of chandhok, klien and maybe senna's talent and yamamoto's money, compare to minardi in the stoddart-days, they had A LOT more developement (though not impressive), and heck, even spyker did more effort... (despite colin kolles)

Warren Hughes · Post by **Warren Hughes** » 19 Oct 2010, 20:33

This is F1 rejects people, we love this kind of thing! Long live HRT!

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 19 Oct 2010, 20:33

redbulljack14 wrote:
eagleash wrote:
Eryx wrote:In response to eagleash:

well its plausable,as with every race this one is just more likely, the truth is if they do manage a point it would gift them 10th in the championship that is if the lotus and virgin cars do not finish as well that could gift them ALLOT of money that they need to survive 2011...but races are races and they are slow...they just have to hope.

Exactly.

Does only the top 10 teams in the championship still get travel benefits like back when there were 15+ teams

Not sure about that, but they all use planes for the flyaway races chartered by FOM & which fly from Biggin Hill.
Back in the day, if a team scored just one championship point they got the travel assistance. So if every team scored a point they all got the help. I think it changed with the points over the years but never bothered to find out how.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 19 Oct 2010, 22:09

Warren Hughes wrote:This is F1 rejects people, we love this kind of thing! Long live HRT!

Hear, hear.

Eryx · Post by **Eryx** » 19 Oct 2010, 22:21

ok ill agree to that...if you love it then thats fine by me!!!

LONG LIVE HRT THE BLACK VERSION OF A FORTI

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 19 Oct 2010, 23:03

if you discount kolles, i can live with HRT

but please change that name to something with an identity, like villeneuve or so

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 20 Oct 2010, 07:44

Eryx wrote:HRT: THE BLACK VERSION OF A FORTI

Truer words haven't been spoken. Perennial backmarker meeting early end, with one lovable driver (Luca Badoer) and a bunch of anonymous drivers.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 20 Oct 2010, 08:14

And, if they actually acquires Toyota car, engine and staff for next year, maybe a decent car, but absolutely no money, they try to sell it to a strange investor (Stefan) who fails to pay, and the team vanshes from the earth. Taking one driver most like (Senna) with them, and a pay-driver that have driven for 3 of the backmarkers who have disappeared the last years.

Yes it is Fort all over again,- maybe.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 20 Oct 2010, 10:42

thehemogoblin wrote:
Eryx wrote:HRT: THE BLACK VERSION OF A FORTI

Truer words haven't been spoken. Perennial backmarker meeting early end, with one lovable driver (Luca Badoer) and a bunch of anonymous drivers.

Make Lavaggi as team boss, and get Chandhok drive the second car, if he doesn't get a chance at other teams next season.

Post by **mario** » 20 Oct 2010, 18:16

redbulljack14 wrote:
Eryx wrote:I imagine in 2011 we will see Lotus overtaking Toro Rosso

Interesting thoughts, they could well do, especially with the new technology they'll be getting for 2011, they won't want to build a great car otherwise Heikki will suck

That said, it turns out that the deal Lotus have struck with Red Bull is not going to give the team the same package as the RB7; in fact, they will receive the gearbox internals from the RB5 (according to Kravitz after the Japanese GP), with a customised gearbox casing.

eagleash wrote:Not sure about that, but they all use planes for the flyaway races chartered by FOM & which fly from Biggin Hill.
Back in the day, if a team scored just one championship point they got the travel assistance. So if every team scored a point they all got the help. I think it changed with the points over the years but never bothered to find out how.

I know that, as part of the deal to bring in the new teams this year, the FIA brokered a deal with FOM which essentially gave the new teams free transportation, regardless of the points scored or their final finishing position in the constructors championship.

Secondly, and this is why HRT are hoping to make their way through to the season ending, the TV revenues were more generous then usual, with a bonus pot for the new teams on top of the usual revenues they would receive from FOM for finishing where they did. If they can make it to the end of the season, the additional prize money might just be enough for them to survive into next year, potentially giving them enough time to either find a buyer or to try and put themselves on a more stable financial footing.
It all depends, of course, on whether they can actually build a car for 2011, though - Toyota's services will not come for cheap (rumoured to be in excess of $45 million, and so far there has been no news about a potential HRT-Toyota deal for some time. As such, there has not been that much news about HRT's plans for 2011 for some time now - we know that Lotus have been working on their cars for some time, and Wirth is working so hard on the new cars that he has stopped attending races as Virgin Racing's technical adviser.

Popi_Larrauri · Post by **Popi_Larrauri** » 20 Oct 2010, 20:45

Myrvold wrote:And, if they actually acquires Toyota car, engine and staff for next year, maybe a decent car, but absolutely no money, they try to sell it to a strange investor (Stefan) who fails to pay, and the team vanshes from the earth. Taking one driver most like (Senna) with them, and a pay-driver that have driven for 3 of the backmarkers who have disappeared the last years.

Yes it is Fort all over again,- maybe.

PS: you need someone to replace Moreno, Badoer could.... wait, he also ran for Forti!

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 20 Oct 2010, 21:13

De La Rosa maybe. A driver who have driven some races, had some good results while he had the chance one year (or less) for a good team, and showed pace in other teams, but didn't break through. Could fit well. However, Moreno ran in 95 (2010) so, well, then Klien maybe

bighaydo · Post by **bighaydo** » 21 Oct 2010, 01:28

At least with Minardi they actually had a go at developing the car instead of bringing a one-size-fits-all package to every race... I don't know how much you could improve on the Dallara but they could at least try!

Minardi used to be the first stop for all of the tech directors on a race weekend, because if there were new parts on a Minardi they would have had to have worked if they went to the trouble of building them...

jackanderton · Post by **jackanderton** » 21 Oct 2010, 13:58

The best reject teams always had their one inexplicable time in the sun, where there was a glimmer of why they actually bothered entering the sport, a tiny fleeting justification of their mammoth, nearly exclusively wasted effort.

Whereas stuff like Life and Mastercard Lola were essentially funnier to read about after the event.

Eryx · Post by **Eryx** » 21 Oct 2010, 21:40

i imagine HRT's time in the spotlight was indeed Chandok coming home 14th in there second race and having only survived 1 lap in his first GP lol...to do 53 laps n make it was a gr8 job Lotus's time was obviously coming home 12th iin japan,As for Virgin they really have not shined for me to be brutally honest,there becoming more reliable granted but who knows,still a few races to go.

anything can happen.

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 07 Nov 2010, 14:13

I had a very interesting conversation yesterday at Silverstone with a former HRT mechanic (now chief mechanic for a GP2 team) and my mate who was a race engineer for Colin Kolles' Formula 3 team (he's the Technical Director for Racing Engineering in GP2). I trust these people and that what they told me is the truth.

1) Sakon Yamamoto paid 5 million Euros.
2) Christian Klien is not paying to drive.
3) Karun Chandhok's money that he was bringing to the team never happened.
4) Colin Kolles was in advanced stages of discussion with Toyota to take over their unbuilt car for this season. HRT paid a retainer of 1 million Euros but backed out when Toyota wanted 30 million Euros for 3 cars and 6 sets of all parts.
5) The gearbox has XTrac internals but the casing was designed by Dallara. The gearbox didn't fit the bellhousing (despite frantic attempts) so the only option was to cut a chunk out of it and bodge it to make it fit. It took a couple of races to stop the gearbox from leaking gearbox oil every time the car ran. They're still not entirely sure how Chandhok managed to finish the Grand Prix in Australia.
6) Colin Kolles is highly respected by the people that work for him. Seriously, they won't hear a bad word said about him. He is very loyal to his people and the core of HRT is Kolles' team, from Formula 3, DTM and Le Mans Series, running from his premises outside Munich (as was already known).
7) The Murcia local government hasn't paid the team what they were supposed to, nor have they granted the use of land and resources of the local government.

Last, but not least:

8) When the nuclear holocaust comes, the only animal lifeforms left on the surface of the Earth will be cockroaches and Colin Kolles.

Valrys · Post by **Valrys** » 07 Nov 2010, 14:21

Faustus wrote:7) When the nuclear holocaust comes, the only animal lifeforms left on the surface of the Earth will be cockroaches and Colin Kolles.

Epic.

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 07 Nov 2010, 14:22

Faustus wrote:I had a very interesting conversation yesterday at Silverstone with a former HRT mechanic (now chief mechanic for a GP2 team) and my mate who was a race engineer for Colin Kolles' Formula 3 team (he's the Technical Director for the GP2 team mentioned above). I trust these people and that what they told me is the truth.

1) Sakon Yamamoto paid 5 million Euros.
2) Christian Klien is not paying to drive.
3) Karun Chandhok's money that he was bringing to the team never came happened.
4) Colin Kolles was in advanced stages of discussion with Toyota to take over their unbuilt car for this season. HRT paid a retainer of 1 million Euros but backed out when Toyota wanted 30 million Euros for 3 cars and 6 sets of all parts.
5) The gearbox has XTrac internals but the casing was designed by Dallara. The gearbox didn't fit the bellhousing (despite frantic attempts) so the only option was to cut a chunk out of it and bodge it to make it fit. It took a couple of races to stop the gearbox from leaking gearbox oil every time the car ran. They're still not entirely sure how Chandhok managed to finish the Grand Prix in Australia.
6) Colin Kolles is highly respected by the people that work for him. Seriously, they won't hear a bad word said about him. He is very loyal to his people and the core of HRT is Kolles' team, from Formula 3, DTM and Le Mans Series, running from his premises outside Munich (as was already known).
7) The Murcia local government hasn't paid the team what they were supposed to, nor have they granted use of land and resources of the local government.

Last, but not least:

7) When the nuclear holocaust comes, the only animal lifeforms left on the surface of the Earth will be cockroaches and Colin Kolles.

This is great stuff, especially #5. Did they say anything about Senna? Obviously he has Embratel behind him but is he actually being paid? And why are they now former mechanics?

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 07 Nov 2010, 14:22

... Why is Colin Kolles the butt of every joke around here? Especially ones involving Carlos. Did I miss something?

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 07 Nov 2010, 14:33

I remember seeing Osella dragging through the track so many times, except in that memorable 1989 Canadian GP, turning laps 6s slower than the front runners, having their cars lapped even more than 4 times in a race (if they managed a finish) that I wonder if people actuall forgot that teams F-1 had teams worse than Hispania. Let us remember Eurobrun, Life, Coloni, Forti, AGS, Spirit, etc. Yes, Colin Kolles is an idiot, less than Gunther Schmidt and Andrea Sassetti, but if they can finance their team, why they shouldn't be there? And in most of the races, both HRTs are within the 107% rule!

Of course, I do hope that in the near future, the grid will consist of teams that are not uncommited manufacturers and privateer hacks.

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 07 Nov 2010, 14:48

patrick wrote:
Faustus wrote:I had a very interesting conversation yesterday at Silverstone with a former HRT mechanic (now chief mechanic for a GP2 team) and my mate who was a race engineer for Colin Kolles' Formula 3 team (he's the Technical Director for the GP2 team mentioned above). I trust these people and that what they told me is the truth.

1) Sakon Yamamoto paid 5 million Euros.
2) Christian Klien is not paying to drive.
3) Karun Chandhok's money that he was bringing to the team never came happened.
4) Colin Kolles was in advanced stages of discussion with Toyota to take over their unbuilt car for this season. HRT paid a retainer of 1 million Euros but backed out when Toyota wanted 30 million Euros for 3 cars and 6 sets of all parts.
5) The gearbox has XTrac internals but the casing was designed by Dallara. The gearbox didn't fit the bellhousing (despite frantic attempts) so the only option was to cut a chunk out of it and bodge it to make it fit. It took a couple of races to stop the gearbox from leaking gearbox oil every time the car ran. They're still not entirely sure how Chandhok managed to finish the Grand Prix in Australia.
6) Colin Kolles is highly respected by the people that work for him. Seriously, they won't hear a bad word said about him. He is very loyal to his people and the core of HRT is Kolles' team, from Formula 3, DTM and Le Mans Series, running from his premises outside Munich (as was already known).
7) The Murcia local government hasn't paid the team what they were supposed to, nor have they been granted use of land and resources of the local government.

Last, but not least:

7) When the nuclear holocaust comes, the only animal lifeforms left on the surface of the Earth will be cockroaches and Colin Kolles.

This is great stuff, especially #5. Did they say anything about Senna? Obviously he has Embratel behind him but is he actually being paid? And why are they now former mechanics?

Forgot about Senna. Senna is paying, mostly with the Embratel deal. Senna, Chandhok, Yamamoto and Klien all pay for their own expenses, including travel and acommodation, for themselves and anyone they bring to the races. Klien is not paying, but he is not being paid either.
The race engineer left to go to GP2 in 2007 and has been technical director of that Spanish GP2 team since. The mechanic decided to leave HRT because he is Spanish and wanted to go back home. They had worked together, the GP2 team had an opening for a chief mechanic, so my mate offered him the job.

On a kind-of unrelated issue, I almost got kicked out of the BRDC clubhouse at Silverstone yesterday, where I was watching qualifying. 2 of my mates who were there are design engineers with Force India and stand to get a significant bonus if Force India hold off Williams for 6th place in the constructors' championship. When Hulkenberg did his 1st pole lap (which he improved later on) they jumped off their chairs at the same time and shouted 'bastard' at the screen. This did not go down well.

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 07 Nov 2010, 15:07

rffp wrote:I remember seeing Osella dragging through the track so many times, except in that memorable 1989 Canadian GP, turning laps 6s slower than the front runners, having their cars lapped even more than 4 times in a race (if they managed a finish) that I wonder if people actuall forgot that teams F-1 had teams worse than Hispania. Let us remember Eurobrun, Life, Coloni, Forti, AGS, Spirit, etc. Yes, Colin Kolles is an idiot, less than Gunther Schmidt and Andrea Sassetti, but if they can finance their team, why they shouldn't be there? And in most of the races, both HRTs are within the 107% rule!

Of course, I do hope that in the near future, the grid will consist of teams that are not uncommited manufacturers and privateer hacks.

I have a lot of respect for Colin Kolles and HRT, despite all the things that we have heard about them. I don't think anyone other than Colin Kolles could have held the team together throughout an entire season (well, almost entire season). Considering all the pre-season stuff that HRT went through and the extreme lack of money, I think they've actually performed better than they or anyone could have expected or predicted. Certainly far better than, say, Coloni in 1991 and EuroBrun, Life and Coloni in 1990.
Gunter Schmidt was nuts, Andrea Sassetti was mostly naive and dodgy. There was a very interesting article in AutoSprint about Andrea Moda 2 or 3 years ago (someone posted a link to it here), with an interview with Sassetti.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 07 Nov 2010, 18:00

The HRT car was designed by Dallara, not them, whom they've since parted with. Why would they waste the money they don't have to spare, fixing a car they know nothing about? And i'm almost certain that the money they've been getting from their pay drivers' money is going into their 2011 program. HRT and Lotus are certain to improve next year, Virgin, I don't know, they've been the quietest.

Considering the small budget, being accepted on such short notice, no testing, they've done a fine job. Colin Kolles should get a pat on the shoulder, because if it wasn't for him, they would have never made it to race 1, or probably the whole season at all.

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 13 Nov 2010, 00:00

Faustus wrote:Klien is not paying, but he is not being paid either.

So he is essentially volunteering? :lol:

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 13 Nov 2010, 00:03

Waris wrote:
Faustus wrote:Klien is not paying, but he is not being paid either.

So he is essentially volunteering?

They should have called me. I volunteer, and I'm not Christian Klien. Everyone wins.

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 13 Nov 2010, 00:07

thehemogoblin wrote:
Waris wrote:
Faustus wrote:Klien is not paying, but he is not being paid either.

So he is essentially volunteering?

They should have called me. I volunteer, and I'm not Christian Klien. Everyone wins.

Well, yeah, but can you drive a car?

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 13 Nov 2010, 00:09

Waris wrote:
thehemogoblin wrote:They should have called me. I volunteer, and I'm not Christian Klien. Everyone wins.

Well, yeah, but can you drive a car?

Had my driver's license for four years and haven't had a crash or a ticket; so, yes.

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 13 Nov 2010, 00:10

thehemogoblin wrote:
Waris wrote:
thehemogoblin wrote:They should have called me. I volunteer, and I'm not Christian Klien. Everyone wins.

Well, yeah, but can you drive a car?

Had my driver's license for four years and haven't had a crash or a ticket; so, yes.

Aah; but, my friend, can you RACE a car? *Yoda face*

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 13 Nov 2010, 00:11

Waris wrote:
thehemogoblin wrote:
Waris wrote:Well, yeah, but can you drive a car?

Had my driver's license for four years and haven't had a crash or a ticket; so, yes.

Aah; but, my friend, can you RACE a car? *Yoda face*

I've never lost a race.

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 13 Nov 2010, 00:12

thehemogoblin wrote:
Waris wrote:
thehemogoblin wrote:Had my driver's license for four years and haven't had a crash or a ticket; so, yes.

Aah; but, my friend, can you RACE a car? *Yoda face*

I've never lost a race.

Well, that sounds like exactly the kind of sound logical argument that would convince Colin Kolles! :lol:

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 15 Nov 2010, 18:44

Bad news for HRT: Toyota has cancelled collaboration with them, on the basis that payments were not forthcoming.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88313

It's looking ever more bleak by the minute. The choices I can see for HRT to race next year are to adapt this year's car to the new regulations (that would be fun) or to have the drivers sit on the Williams gearbox and try to run down the track, no chassis.

They've pulled a Stefan. Well done.