2009 European Grand Prix Discussion

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 20 Aug 2009, 05:54

With potentionally one of the major turning points this season upon us this weekend at Valencia what are your thoughts are predictions?
I predict a Red Bull win, Badoer on the poduim, Williams to get more points and BMW to be utterly crap like they have been this season

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 20 Aug 2009, 06:03

I think Valencia nd the next few races will be a silver and sacrlet show all the way. However, I don't think any of those four drivers - Hamilton, Raikkonen, Kovalainen and Badoer - will be able to challenge for the title because no one of hem will be consistent. As such, the title battle will be fought over the right to the Best of the Rest placings, with Nico Rosberg and Fernando Alonso in the mix to keep things interesting. I also expect that Barrichello will be given orders to support Button either before or after this race. I also think Red Bull need to sort themselves out a little more, espeically if Vettel beats Webber here. Webber needs to take three points per race off Button to be World Champion, but he can't afford to quarrel with Vettel.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 20 Aug 2009, 07:25

Captain Hammer wrote: I also think Red Bull need to sort themselves out a little more, espeically if Vettel beats Webber here. Webber needs to take three points per race off Button to be World Champion, but he can't afford to quarrel with Vettel.

The thing is over the last 3 races Mark has taken an average of 5 points a race out of Jenson while Seb only took 3 points a race out of Button on average during that same period. With Brawn stuggling both have a good chance at the title but Webber seems the better bet. Afterall he would deserve it more being Aussie and all...
On a slightly different note as Ferrari, McLaren and Willims fighting for BOTR at most and Renault stugging should Brawn and Red Bull take both titles it would be the first time since 1979 that the "Big 4" (Ferrari, McLaren, Willians and Benetton/Renault) have not won either title...

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 20 Aug 2009, 09:07

I'm wondering how similar to the Hungaroring Valencia might be. If Ferrari and McLaren have a shot at being in front after qualy, KERS will be the silver bullet. I'm still not convinced they have the pace to take the fight to Red Bull, though.

There's a bit of walls and Armco in that circuit. Vettel has shown us this year he is as keen of a good shunt as every other man when the pressure's on. Maybe it will be the tipping point in Webber's favour; maybe not.

Interestingly, I wonder where the Brawns will be. Valencia is very hot this time of the year (I remember seeing 40-something degrees there frequently in August), so if they still can't warm their tyres there, they've had it.

Lots of interest, boring track. Somehow, I can't wait for it.

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 20 Aug 2009, 10:34

Wizzie wrote:On a slightly different note as Ferrari, McLaren and Willims fighting for BOTR at most and Renault stugging should Brawn and Red Bull take both titles it would be the first time since 1979 that the "Big 4" (Ferrari, McLaren, Willians and Benetton/Renault) have not won either title...

You mean 1978? Because last time i checked, you listed Ferrari as one of the Big 4 and 1979 was a Ferrari year through and through

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 20 Aug 2009, 11:08

DonTirri wrote:
Wizzie wrote:On a slightly different note as Ferrari, McLaren and Willims fighting for BOTR at most and Renault stugging should Brawn and Red Bull take both titles it would be the first time since 1979 that the "Big 4" (Ferrari, McLaren, Willians and Benetton/Renault) have not won either title...

You mean 1978? Because last time i checked, you listed Ferrari as one of the Big 4 and 1979 was a Ferrari year through and through

Sorry. Must have missed that somewhere

johnston21 · Post by **johnston21** » 20 Aug 2009, 14:09

Captain Hammer wrote:I also expect that Barrichello will be given orders to support Button either before or after this race.

That's very intersting speculation. I can't wait to see how he'll react. Will he quit???

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 20 Aug 2009, 17:54

johnston21 wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:I also expect that Barrichello will be given orders to support Button either before or after this race.

That's very intersting speculation. I can't wait to see how he'll react. Will he quit???

Here's hoping he does... and here's hoping that Anthony Davidson gets his drive.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 20 Aug 2009, 19:00

johnston21 wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:I also expect that Barrichello will be given orders to support Button either before or after this race.

That's very intersting speculation. I can't wait to see how he'll react. Will he quit???

No. He will be fired. And replaced with Senna.
Probably.

Post by **Nuppiz** » 20 Aug 2009, 19:09

kostas22 wrote:
johnston21 wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:I also expect that Barrichello will be given orders to support Button either before or after this race.

That's very intersting speculation. I can't wait to see how he'll react. Will he quit???

No. He will be fired. And replaced with Senna.
Probably.

That would be interesting, a driver being replaced with the nephew of his mentor.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 20 Aug 2009, 19:40

Red Bull 1-2, hopefully a podium for Rosberg which has been long overdue.The Brawns will struggle and Button will probably finish 4th and Barrichello will have a torrid race. Expect 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th to be fought between Alonso, both Ferraris, Mclarens and Toyotas. I hope Badoer gets a top 4 finish or at least amasses high enough finishes to eventually escape reject status. Grosjean will get to Q2 in qualifying at the expense of Sutil, Fisichella, Alguesuari, Buemi and either BMW.

Irisado · Post by **Irisado** » 20 Aug 2009, 20:13

I will actually watch practice tomorrow for a change just to see how Badoer gets on.

Valencia hardly set the world on fire as a venue last year, so this year could hardly be worse, surely.....

I suspect that Red Bull will still be the team to beat, but McLaren and Ferrari will probably continue to show their Hungary form, and Brawn must surely go better in the Spanish heat. If they don't go quicker in that heat, then they really are in desperate trouble.

Force India have a new upgrade for Valencia apparently, so they may leap ahead of Toro Rosso once again. Grosjean should make the Q1 cut, but it's not guaranteed, it all depends on the pace of the Renault. I expect BMW to lose at least one car at the first hurdle, and you never know how Toyota will go, because they are so inconsistent.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 21 Aug 2009, 00:46

johnston21 wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:I also expect that Barrichello will be given orders to support Button either before or after this race.

That's very intersting speculation. I can't wait to see how he'll react. Will he quit???

I don't think he's going to quit on the sport. A driver as experienced as he is will understand that there will come a point where he's going to be out of the running - or at the very least a mathematical outsider - but Button is going to be a genuine contender through to the end of the season (Button's pretty confident they've sorted out what went wrong with the upgrade; apparently the team went back to square one and followed the development through to the last round and noticed a pattern). Barrichello will see that and know it's better for him to support Button than to fight him on-track (not that that's a problem, Button has been light years ahead of him all year). It would also keep him in good favour with the team, so that when 2010 comes around the the BGP-002 released, Barrichello could still find him in a car that could be highly competitive (people say that their success is a one-off, but if they do well, they shouldn't have too much trouble with finding sponsors ... hell, their success lone is enough to justify pouring money in by the truckload), with another chace at doing well. He might quit at the end of the year, though. Whether for another team or for good remains to be seen.

Kuwashima · Post by **Kuwashima** » 21 Aug 2009, 10:00

OK not the best Fri free practice session for Luca. 3.3 seconds slower than Barrichello, and 2.5 secs off Kimi.

Hopefully it was just getting used to the car (even if Grosjean was only a second off Alonso) or some technical issues.

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » 21 Aug 2009, 10:07

Luca had "Brake Bias" problems, we'll see what his genuine pace is this afternoon. Track is dusty, a few cars spun and had off track moments so in the race we may see a crash or two.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 21 Aug 2009, 11:17

The Brawns are back.

Be afraid.

Irisado · Post by **Irisado** » 21 Aug 2009, 11:45

I watched practice this morning, and I wouldn't say Luca looked that comfortable in the Ferrari, so I don't think he's got it working as he would like yet. The technical issue with the brakes also helps to explain the difference in my view, as there is no way that he is that much slower than Raikkonen.

I think he will be quicker this afternoon.

At the front, it does look like a Brawn/Red Bull/McLaren battle for supremacy, but as I predicted Force India seem to be going quite well, at least in the hands of Sutil, so he may have a chance of a good result this weekend.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 21 Aug 2009, 13:23

Captain Hammer wrote:The Brawns are back.

Be afraid.

Relishing, are we?

It's a bit unusual for them to be so fast so early. Either it's a dominant form, or they're going to bump into trouble ahead.

dragonsteincole · Post by **dragonsteincole** » 21 Aug 2009, 14:03

Somehow I don't think Enoch and Jamie will be doing their 'Ceremonial Opening the FTP and Deleting the Badoer Folder' on the next podcast... although those of a Bourdais-qualifying attitude can say at least he was faster than Hamilton, the world champion in P2. Then again Raikkonen wasn't exactly doing anything amazing in the other Ferrari, but I don't think it's all down to that.

Also, was fun to see Schumi giggling away at Alonso's mishap with Heidfeld.

A dark sense of humour on display.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 21 Aug 2009, 14:06

Sing along now:

Felipe, baby, just hurry up and get better soon

At least he beat Alguersuari.

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 21 Aug 2009, 14:33

Hard to tell from practice as ever, but it's looking as if Brawn have stopped the rot. The real test will be on Sunday though, and how they manage their tyres.

Either way, they must be pleased to see McLaren up there mixing it for the big points.

Nin13 · Post by **Nin13** » 21 Aug 2009, 14:36

On BBC during practice, they were reporting from pits that Brawns started Practice 1 with Spain style setup and wings and gradually move to one they used in Hungary over 2nd practice.
Looking at their practice result things must be sorted out, but its just practice anyway. As I had said earlier, if there is anyone who can solve technical problems in car, then it must be Ross Brawn, now combine that with experience of Barichello and Button and you have really good results!!

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 21 Aug 2009, 15:39

On the US coverage, David Hobbs seemed to think that Badoer's lack of pace was from the pressure from driving what is essentially the most famous car in F1 in front of millions of people for the first time. Badoer seemed to make a lot of mistakes but he is picking up the pace.

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 21 Aug 2009, 15:45

Cynon wrote:On the US coverage, David Hobbs seemed to think that Badoer's lack of pace was from the pressure from driving what is essentially the most famous car in F1 in front of millions of people for the first time. Badoer seemed to make a lot of mistakes but he is picking up the pace.

Apparently he managed to pick up four pit lane speeding fines, too!

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 21 Aug 2009, 16:31

Paul Hayes wrote:
Cynon wrote:On the US coverage, David Hobbs seemed to think that Badoer's lack of pace was from the pressure from driving what is essentially the most famous car in F1 in front of millions of people for the first time. Badoer seemed to make a lot of mistakes but he is picking up the pace.

Apparently he managed to pick up four pit lane speeding fines, too!

In true F1 Rejects fashion... :lol:

johnston21 · Post by **johnston21** » 21 Aug 2009, 16:37

The US coverage showed the clip from '99 with Luca crying. It was priceless... :mrgreen:

Henrique · Post by **Henrique** » 21 Aug 2009, 16:59

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2009/08/21/i-expected-a-difficult-day-badoer/

Irisado · Post by **Irisado** » 21 Aug 2009, 17:07

Well, Luca Badoer was quicker this afternoon, so he's moving in the right direction. Ferrari are treating this race as a test session for him, so let's just see how he gets on tomorrow and the race. His main problem is apparently set-up, as he's not particularly happy with the balance and handling of the car at the moment.

Raikkonen wasn't that impressive in the lead Ferrari either, so maybe Ferrari will not be as quick here as was expected.

It's always hard to read too much into free practice, but I still think it's going to be a Brawn/Red Bull/McLaren battle, and the Q1 cut could be quite tense, because I'm sure Grosjean and Badoer don't expect/want to fall at the first hurdle, but they will have to work quite hard not to, judging by the performance of Force India (who look good), and Toro Rosso.

Bleu · Post by **Bleu** » 21 Aug 2009, 18:12

Badoer was fast in wrong place, three pit lane speeding fines: a total of 5400 euros.

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 21 Aug 2009, 20:47

Dunno if it's a bad omen, but I noticed Badoer's name in the standings-list at the top left of the screen is "Bad"...

Poor sod, talk about pressure. Even his name assumes he is gonna fail

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 21 Aug 2009, 23:38

Not the most exciting session ever but if that is a snapshot of the race (James Allen said on Twitter track temp was 50c) then expect a real Brawn/Redbull Battle with the Maccas, Rosberg's Williams and Raikkonen's Ferrari to throw themselves into the mix

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » 22 Aug 2009, 10:15

In final free practice Luca is 3 seconds off the pace (and 1.2s off Alguersuari) but Sutil was fastest! Nakajima was 2nd, I'd love for a race to have that result...

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 22 Aug 2009, 10:25

The whole affair got tangled when Vettel's engine blew up and left a lot of oil on the circuit, so a normal session would have produced another result, no doubt. Still, it makes for fantastic reading.

I'm coming put and predicting this will be the race where Sutil will escape rejectdom. Yes, Force India's first points tomorrow.

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 22 Aug 2009, 13:14

Button must be hugely disappointed to only be fifth, and for Vettel to have out-qualified him despite Red Bull not seeming to have great form leading up to qualifying. However, let's see what it looks like when the fuel loads come out - I'd be surprised if Vettel isn't lighter than the cars around him. A shame Sutil didn't manage to transfer the promise of the Force India cars into a Q3 placing.

Surprising too that Alonso wasn't up there, especially after what happened in Hungary. I think tomorrow the McLarens will run away and hide - let's just hope it's a more interesting affair than last year's race. It would be difficult for it to be any duller, that's for sure.

The less said about Badoer, the better... Thought Grosjean seemed to do okay, though.

Nin13 · Post by **Nin13** » 22 Aug 2009, 13:15

I think Button and Barichello might be carrying a little bit more fue than Mclaren. Knowing how good Mclarens are with start Brawn must have gone conservative. Good for Brawns that both his cars are on a cleaner side, but may end up 3rd and 4th after 1st corner. Raikkonen starting too far down for his KERS to affect top 5. Also big problem is Kovalainen holding up Brawns as Hamilton builds up the lead.
Red Bull are about 0.3-0.4s off Mclarens and Brawns pace, so damage limitation for them.
Also we will have to see how different tires hold up. Brawn is more conservative on tires, that could be advantage on race day but passing Mclaren on track will be tough job.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 22 Aug 2009, 13:28

Paul Hayes wrote:
The less said about Badoer, the better... Thought Grosjean seemed to do okay, though.

He was just about as good as Piquet would possibly be, which is good considering he'd not driven the car before.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 22 Aug 2009, 13:58

I don't know what to think about poor 'Bad', here's hoping he either retires early or doesn't get lapped more than 8 times.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 22 Aug 2009, 14:08

shinji wrote:I don't know what to think about poor 'Bad', here's hoping he either retires early or doesn't get lapped more than 8 times.

An Italian driver in a Ferrari, under pressure and scrutiny, on car with KERS launching from the back of the grid, in a circuit where everyone will try to get positions on the start because it's so hard to pass... I predict a riot.

Henrique · Post by **Henrique** » 22 Aug 2009, 14:37

Badoer's problem was at section 3. He's almost a second slower than everybody else there and he admitted he made a mistake on the last corner. From what I've seen around the Internet, some Ferrari fans are furious for him giving a last place to a Ferrari.

On a brighter note, Grosjean had a great rookie qualifying. Replacing Piquet for him was definitely a good decision.

I hope the Brawns win :twisted:

Irisado · Post by **Irisado** » 22 Aug 2009, 14:44

Well, if Ferrari fans are angry about that, I wonder what they made of Schecker's failure to qualify in 1980?

Badoer's performance was disappointing, and I'm a fan of his, so I don't like having to say that, although his performance was made to look worse than it was by that big mistake in the last corner. The fact that the media keep going on and on about how great Schumacher would have been can't be doing much for his confidence either.

As for the rest, McLaren look like a solid bet for victory, but it looks as though Brawn will beat Red Bull, for whom Webber, in particular, appears to be struggling.