2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread

[Paul Hayes]

Great race today - not as much rain as I might have hoped for, but a nice sprinkling at the start and end. Gutted for Button, as you have to say that ends his interest in this year's world championship, which I think is down to Webber and Hamilton now.

[patrick]

Two interesting points come out of this race.
Firstly, despite the botched start, webber's form means red bull need to seriously think about backing him for the title over seb in the last few races - especially after monza when the red bulls will be back on strong circuits.
secondly, has petrov now earned his seat at renault? his qualifying was rookie at it's finest, but he by far made up in the race, especially that move on rosberg and he quietly kept it going in the wet.

[mario]

Great race today - not as much rain as I might have hoped for, but a nice sprinkling at the start and end. Gutted for Button, as you have to say that ends his interest in this year's world championship, which I think is down to Webber and Hamilton now.

He certainly sounded very disheartened, and you can see why - he is now 35 points down on his team mate, and once Monza is over, the remainder of the season is probably going to favour Red Bull, so it'll be very hard to overturn that points deficit.
Moreover, it wasn't down to anything he did, but because Vettel lost control of his car (and it seemed quite odd - the way that he spun makes it look as if he was trying to brake whilst swerving around Button, as if he panicked that he was going to overshoot the braking zone). Still, Button isn't entirely out of it, but he is going to have an uphill struggle, and the team are probably going to start backing Hamilton over Button now, because, points wise, he has a big advantage.

However, credit where credit is due, and I must say that all of the podium finishers did well. OK, each on made their mistakes - Webber's poor start, Hamilton's off road excursion and Kubica's botched pit stop - but, on the track, they kept it together, brought the car home and avoided getting into trouble. Kubica did very well, in fact, to be so close to Webber, considering that the RB6 is supposed to be the much better car, because even when Webber got past, he couldn't pull away from him.
Massa did well too - despite his dry weather set up, he kept it on the road, and managed to stay ahead of a charging Sutil (who also had a very good race) - and Mercedes did well to hold their nerve until the rain came, to secure 6th and 7th.
All in all, it was a chaotic but entertaining race, and it has drastically altered the look of the championship standings - it was expensive for some, and if the top two don't have any non scores or DNF's, then it'll be down to just Webber and Hamilton.

[Instant Mash]

Race of the year, so far.

[dr-baker]

Jaime Alguersauras has lost his point for tenth for cutting the final chicane and overtaking Liuzzi with three laps to go.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86249

[Yannick]

The following is pure speculation, but the engine change for Pedro DLR that put him at the back of the field may have been a strategic move by Sauber. They knew they had to take such a penalty sooner or later, based on the abysmal performances from their Ferrari power plants who were arguably the one type of engine which failed most often during this season. So my guess is they took it at a point when De La Rosa was going to start pretty much at the back anyway, which was the case here because of his off in the rain of Q1.

I'd never have expected that anybody would run out of engines as early as Spa. The Ferrari engine department's bid for Reject Of the Year is very impressive.

[CarlosFerreira]

I'd never have expected that anybody would run out of engines as early as Spa. The Ferrari engine department's bid for Reject Of the Year is very impressive.

Good point there.

[Cynon]

I'd never have expected that anybody would run out of engines as early as Spa. The Ferrari engine department's bid for Reject Of the Year is very impressive.

Good point there.

Sure it wouldn't be Sauber's reliability? Because the only other Ferrari engine detonation was Alonso at Malaysia IIRC... so perhaps they packed everything too close in the Sauber?

[CarlosFerreira]

I'd never have expected that anybody would run out of engines as early as Spa. The Ferrari engine department's bid for Reject Of the Year is very impressive.

Good point there.

Sure it wouldn't be Sauber's reliability? Because the only other Ferrari engine detonation was Alonso at Malaysia IIRC... so perhaps they packed everything too close in the Sauber?

Perhaps the Saubers were indeed worse, but apart from Alonso's motor exploding in Malaysia, I seem to remember they struggled with overheating in Bahrain and lost a couple of engines to less fiery deaths before being allowed to change something in the units upon coming back to Europe.

[mario]

I'd never have expected that anybody would run out of engines as early as Spa. The Ferrari engine department's bid for Reject Of the Year is very impressive.

Good point there.

Sure it wouldn't be Sauber's reliability? Because the only other Ferrari engine detonation was Alonso at Malaysia IIRC... so perhaps they packed everything too close in the Sauber?

Although Sauber have had more problems, the main team has also had problems, but those were mainly during the practise sessions. Alonso, for example, had an engine failure at China (during the second practise session, I think) with the engine (which had been new) he had used at the previous race, and they also had the problems with sand contaminating the seals at Bahrein, which meant that they had an engine change there.

Admittedly, those problems have been solved with modifications to the pneumatic seals of the engine (which Ferrari admitted were leaking slightly, and causing premature failure of the engine) - a reliability upgrade, it is rumoured, they were later, albeit not intentionally, able to use to gain a few bhp (it is rumoured that, later on in the season, Shell was able to take advantage of the new seal design to introduce a new lubricant, which reduced engine windage losses slightly and thereby increased the shaft horsepower).

As a result, both Massa and Alonso used up their 7th engine today - however, the fact that the race was wet at times, and relatively cold, would have reduced some of the stresses on the engine, so they could probably eke a little bit more then expected out of the engine. Even so, they are going to be marginal on engines, because they are going to use their last fresh engines at Monza (a track where traditionally every team installs a new engine because the drivers are on full throttle for so much of the lap).
Now, of the races left, Interlagos is traditionally less difficult on the engines, and Singapore, where the drivers are not on full throttle for that much of the lap, are probably less of a problem. Even so, there are a few circuits coming up - Suzuka and Abu Dhabi (with the very long back straight) - that could strain the engines a bit, and they are going to be stretching the mileage up on the ones they do have.

Sauber were probably taking the penalty today because they thought that it wouldn't matter; however, they won't be able to do that too often, because the penalty applies whenever they use an engine outside of their allocation - so if they re-use engine No. 9 for De La Rosa, he will be penalised again. I expect engine No. 8 will be used at Monza (and Kobayashi will probably use up his last new engine at Monza too) - but from there on in, it'll either be a gamble on how far they can stretch the mileage, or it'll be more penalties for the Sauber team.

[CarlosFerreira]

Sauber were probably taking the penalty today because they thought that it wouldn't matter; however, they won't be able to do that too often, because the penalty applies whenever they use an engine outside of their allocation - so if they re-use engine No. 9 for De La Rosa, he will be penalised again. I expect engine No. 8 will be used at Monza (and Kobayashi will probably use up his last new engine at Monza too) - but from there on in, it'll either be a gamble on how far they can stretch the mileage, or it'll be more penalties for the Sauber team.

I didn't know that. The penalty system has evolved, huh?

[mario]

Sauber were probably taking the penalty today because they thought that it wouldn't matter; however, they won't be able to do that too often, because the penalty applies whenever they use an engine outside of their allocation - so if they re-use engine No. 9 for De La Rosa, he will be penalised again. I expect engine No. 8 will be used at Monza (and Kobayashi will probably use up his last new engine at Monza too) - but from there on in, it'll either be a gamble on how far they can stretch the mileage, or it'll be more penalties for the Sauber team.

I didn't know that. The penalty system has evolved, huh?

Actually, sorry, I've screwed up on that point. The penalty applies only at the first race at which the extra engine is applied - however, if you use multiple new engines during a single race weekend, you get one penalty at the first race, and a second penalty at the next race. The second part, which I've underlined, is new for this season, and it was that rule which I'd mistakenly thought meant that the penalty applied to the subsequent weekend.
So, for those who are interested, these are the actual restrictions on engine usage:

28.4 a) Each driver may use no more than eight engines during a Championship season. Should a driver use more than eight engines he will drop ten places on the starting grid at the first Event during which each additional engine is used. If two such additional engines are used during a single Event the driver concerned will drop ten places on the starting grid at that Event and at the following Event.
An engine will be deemed to have been used once the car’s timing transponder has shown that it has left the pit lane.

b) If a driver is replaced at any time during the Championship season his replacement will be deemed to be the original driver for the purposes of assessing engine usage.

c) After consultation with the relevant engine supplier the FIA will attach seals to each engine prior to it being used for the first time at an Event in order to ensure that no significant moving parts can be rebuilt or replaced.
Within two hours of the end of the post race parc fermé exhaust blanking plates (with one 10mm diameter inspection hole per cylinder) and further seals will be applied to all used engines in order to ensure that these engines cannot be run between Events. Upon request to the FIA these additional seals will be removed after the start of initial scrutineering at the next Event at which the engines are required. All such engines must remain within the team’s designated garage area when not fitted to a car and may not be started at any time during an Event other than when fitted to a car eligible to participate in the Event.

d) If any of the FIA seals are damaged or removed from an engine after it has been used for the first time that engine may not be used again unless they were removed under FIA supervision.

e) If an engine is changed in accordance with Article 34.1 the engine which was replaced may not be used during any future qualifying session or race with the exception of the last Event of the Championship.

[patrick]

Now, of the races left, Interlagos is traditionally less difficult on the engines, and Singapore, where the drivers are not on full throttle for that much of the lap, are probably less of a problem. Even so, there are a few circuits coming up - Suzuka and Abu Dhabi (with the very long back straight) - that could strain the engines a bit, and they are going to be stretching the mileage up on the ones they do have.

I'm no expert, but would I be correct in saying all of the teams might start to have engine management issues?
Looking at the last few circuits as you mentioned, Suzuka being a quick one and Abu Dhabi with the long straight, and there is also the unknown of South Korea, which has a bunch of pretty long straights and of course Monza is pretty fast. Maybe the RB/Renaults, which are already down on power as outlined today as they were on the limiter behind McLarens and unable to do anything, could start to wear theirs out sooner as they try and keep up in Monza, or even teams being caught out by the korean circuit's unknown factors.
Of course late last year would be a good comparison, I can't remember if anyone had similar issues though - although I think vettel was very close to his limit of 8.

[CarlosFerreira]

Of course late last year would be a good comparison, I can't remember if anyone had similar issues though - although I think vettel was very close to his limit of 8.

Last year, IIRC, Renault achieved miracles in prolonging the life in Vettel's engine. That was amazing - I think they were down to 1 engine in Singapore.

[Aerospeed]

Good race. Hamilton led from the get-go and never let off. Petrov came from 23rd to 9th and Schumacher from 21st to 7th, both doing amazing drives, as well as Kobayashi from 17th finishing 8th, but Schumacher's more impressive as the Mercedes car hasn't been the greatest all season. Webber mucked up the beginning but finished second. Kubica mucked up his pit stop but still finished third. He was up to second, and for a moment there I thought he was having a good chance to win the race after Hamilton half-spun at Rivage at some point, but Hamilton recovered and hung on. Vettel rammed into Button, got a drive-thru, and in possible frustration, clipped Liuzzi's front wing and limped with a flat tyre.

(Not predictions but opinions on the awards)
ROTR: Vettel
IIDOTR: Michael Schumacher (21st to 7th; WOW!)
DBTMOTR: Vettel (Webber finished 2nd, and the fact that Vettel got my vote for ROTR is bad enough)

[eytl]

In case I forget to mention this in the race review, I thought the body language in the post-race press conference was more telling than usual.

You had Hamilton beaming like a Cheshire cat, obviously very happy to have won in one of the two successive races where McLaren feel they really need to capitalise, and pleased to have survived his trip through the gravel at Rivage. You had Kubica being very relaxed and laid back, probably a bit disappointed at having thrown 2nd place away but still completely comfortable that he has yet again impressed mightily in a car that shouldn't be that high up.

But best of all was Webber, who looked so steely, intense and worked up and yet when it came to his turn to talk, clearly he wasn't peeved off or overly angry; it suggested that he realised how important it was to come away with 18 points - probably the scenario most expected at the start of the race given Hamilton's favouritism - when Button, Vettel and Alonso (Seb especially) all failed to score. You could almost see, visually, with your eyes (to quote someone great) him starting to get himself mentally primed for Monza. He is drawing further into depths of determination that has been one of the key factors in his championship push.

[mario]

Now, of the races left, Interlagos is traditionally less difficult on the engines, and Singapore, where the drivers are not on full throttle for that much of the lap, are probably less of a problem. Even so, there are a few circuits coming up - Suzuka and Abu Dhabi (with the very long back straight) - that could strain the engines a bit, and they are going to be stretching the mileage up on the ones they do have.

I'm no expert, but would I be correct in saying all of the teams might start to have engine management issues?
Looking at the last few circuits as you mentioned, Suzuka being a quick one and Abu Dhabi with the long straight, and there is also the unknown of South Korea, which has a bunch of pretty long straights and of course Monza is pretty fast. Maybe the RB/Renaults, which are already down on power as outlined today as they were on the limiter behind McLarens and unable to do anything, could start to wear theirs out sooner as they try and keep up in Monza, or even teams being caught out by the korean circuit's unknown factors.
Of course late last year would be a good comparison, I can't remember if anyone had similar issues though - although I think vettel was very close to his limit of 8.

I don't want to claim any sort of expertise on this, but I do suspect that some of the title contenders are going to have problems in the foreseeable future with their engines. I believe that Hamilton, Vettel, Webber and Button have used 6 engines this season, and Alonso and Massa have used 7, due to the extra engine they used in Bahrein (this includes today, as, according to Ted Kravitz, the entire grid used a new engine for the race today). Now, for Monza, I expect that all of the teams will use another engine for that race: Ferrari have already earmarked their final fresh engine for that weekend, and in previous years, everybody has installed a fresh engine if one was available for Monza. So, that will leave Ferrari with no new engines for the rest of the season, and the rest with one fresh engine available.

I suspect that the engines used at Spa and Monza are likely to be used either at Singapore or Interlagos, where the engines are not going to be as severely loaded up - especially since engine wear would have been slightly lower today, with the slower race pace during the rain showers.
That said, Vettel won't have done his engine any favours by banging it off the rev limiter in Button's slip stream - normally, you cut it as fine as you dare for top gear, so you don't have that many revs in reserve (perhaps a few hundred rpm) at the end of the straight, but it sounds as if Red Bull had it a little too short. I guess that they didn't think that they'd have to pass anybody, which Vettel will rue (if he had those extra few hundred rpm, he could have been in a position to at least try to pass Button). Whatever the reason, though, the engineers would not have liked that one bit, because if you repeatedly run the engine on the limiter, it does start to damage the engine quite quickly - I'm surprised that they didn't get Vettel to duck out of Button's slip stream to stop that happening.

But, to the future; the teams are going to have to re-use an engine which has done two race distances at least. They might use an engine from Monaco or Hungary, where they are on full throttle for the least amount of time, and the race distances are the shortest - if they are still available, that is. Ferrari are going to have to be careful: I think that they might have to copy what Vettel did last year, when he was tight on engines, and cut down on the number of practise laps they do (and come Abu Dhabi, I don't think that Vettel had any engines left from his allocation).

That said, I think that the main issue will not be whether they can get the engines to last - I think that they could, if they were really desperate, nurse the engines home on reduced revs - but, given the high mileage on those engines, what the performance drop off is will be more critical. Cosworth, for example, has admitted that although its engines can do fairly high mileages, the performance does deteriorate quite badly after about 1000km, so the question is which of the engines - Renault, Mercedes or Ferrari - will loose the most power. The Mercedes and Ferrari engines are said to be fairly good in that respect, although they will be pushed hard this year, and I think that the Renault engine won't drop off too much either - but, of course, since the Renault is slightly less powerful to begin with, any drop off in power will be more noticeable for them compared to the other two.

Either way, it is going to be interesting to see how the teams cope - it is unknown territory for them, especially with the Korean track (and that back straight looks mightily long - which will give an engine designer a panic attack or two, I bet). If I had to bet on who is most likely to have to take a penalty, I'd say Alonso, because he lacks that extra engine, but we never know what might happen in the next six races.

[IdeFan]

From here I would have to back Webber for the title, it should be close, Button showed how easy it is to have a DNF, but Webber should have the faster package over the last few races, if he can score well at Monza then I don't think Hamilton's lead will be enough.

Wouldn't put money on it though.

[Myrvold]

I really hope Webber takes it, it may be his only chance.

[patrick]

Thanks mario, you may not claim to be an expert but you sure know your stuff!

From here I would have to back Webber for the title, it should be close, Button showed how easy it is to have a DNF, but Webber should have the faster package over the last few races, if he can score well at Monza then I don't think Hamilton's lead will be enough.

Wouldn't put money on it though.

I'd happily put money on the top two (whoever) being within a handful of points of each other in abu dhabi. It's just that sort of season.

[CarlosFerreira]

But best of all was Webber, who looked so steely, intense and worked up and yet when it came to his turn to talk, clearly he wasn't peeved off or overly angry; it suggested that he realised how important it was to come away with 18 points - probably the scenario most expected at the start of the race given Hamilton's favouritism - when Button, Vettel and Alonso (Seb especially) all failed to score. You could almost see, visually, with your eyes (to quote someone great) him starting to get himself mentally primed for Monza. He is drawing further into depths of determination that has been one of the key factors in his championship push.

I was really impressed with Webber today. He raced like, well, like a Champion. When he bogged down at the start I personally saw echoes of Valencia all over again, and immediately expected his eagerness to put him on the kitty litter. And you know what? It didn't. He calmed down, kept it together, made sure the nose was always pointing in the right direction, and saw people around him fall off the road. It's telling that, as Hamilton, Kubica and him did an extra lap on hard slicks in the rain, he was the only of the three to make no big mistakes. A fitting 2nd place; if he goes on like this, he'll be really difficult to beat.

[TimmyB]

That said, Vettel won't have done his engine any favours by banging it off the rev limiter in Button's slip stream - normally, you cut it as fine as you dare for top gear, so you don't have that many revs in reserve (perhaps a few hundred rpm) at the end of the straight, but it sounds as if Red Bull had it a little too short. I guess that they didn't think that they'd have to pass anybody, which Vettel will rue (if he had those extra few hundred rpm, he could have been in a position to at least try to pass Button).

At a guess I'd say they ran with the shorter 7th gear ratio on Vettels car to compensate for the lack of power from the Renault engine.

By running the ratio this way they can accelerate faster in 7th gear. They probably were also compensating for the expected wet race and also to maximise their qualifying pace.

[Ferrim]

What Webber is doing this year is what Alonso should have done back in 2007 at McLaren.

Your team may prefer your teammate over you for the win, they may help him, they may even advantage him over you. But you don't do any favours to yourself by throwing your toys and claiming it's unfair. I've always thought that Alonso would have easily won that title if he had concentrated on his driving, and now Webber is showing the way you do it.

[Phoenix]

What Webber is doing this year is what Alonso should have done back in 2007 at McLaren.

Your team may prefer your teammate over you for the win, they may help him, they may even advantage him over you. But you don't do any favours to yourself by throwing your toys and claiming it's unfair. I've always thought that Alonso would have easily won that title if he had concentrated on his driving, and now Webber is showing the way you do it.

Instead, Alonso is having a shameful season. Not what people expected from him moving to Ferrari

[Salamander]

Kubica did very well, in fact, to be so close to Webber, considering that the RB6 is supposed to be the much better car, because even when Webber got past, he couldn't pull away from him.

Not only that, but after the first stop, where Kubica rejoined right in front of Webber, Webber was not able to take 2nd place, and Kubica was in fact faster in the middle stint - I remember seeing him about 3 seconds ahead of Webber at one point, and holding pace with Hamilton for a little bit. Superb job from him.

[mario]

Kubica did very well, in fact, to be so close to Webber, considering that the RB6 is supposed to be the much better car, because even when Webber got past, he couldn't pull away from him.

Not only that, but after the first stop, where Kubica rejoined right in front of Webber, Webber was not able to take 2nd place, and Kubica was in fact faster in the middle stint - I remember seeing him about 3 seconds ahead of Webber at one point, and holding pace with Hamilton for a little bit. Superb job from him.

Checking the lap times, at one point he was briefly closing on Hamilton (although, judging by the fact that Hamilton started putting in faster times, I think that he might have been adjusting to the balance of the car on the harder tyre, as this was around the time that Hamilton pitted). Webber just didn't seem to have an answer to the pace of the R30, especially once they all switched to the prime tyre, and was a bit lucky that Kubica locked up his brakes and missed his pit box, because he just couldn't close the gap to him on the track (and Kubica stuck with Webber in both dry and wet conditions - he was under two seconds behind him at the finish).

On another note, this was picked up by Brundle at the start of the race, but why has no action been taken over Massa overshooting his start line position by quite a considerable margin? This little clip has popped up on Youtube (via the F1Technical forums), and at the start, you can see Massa is nearly half a car's length too far forwards (the line marking the start of his grid slot is almost level with his helmet). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kChqJVjp9U
It isn't the first time that the stewards have missed that sort of thing - remember Bahrein, where Webber overshot his box, but no action was taken? After all, he is gaining an advantage by starting ahead of his grid slot - and if the commentators could see that from their box, surely Charlie Whiting should have seen it from his office?

[coops]

Instead, Alonso is having a shameful season. Not what people expected from him moving to Ferrari

Very true but give him this season to bed in and hopefully he can get things together for 2011.

[CarlosFerreira]

Instead, Alonso is having a shameful season. Not what people expected from him moving to Ferrari

Very true but give him this season to bed in and hopefully he can get things together for 2011.

If him and Vettel get their heads together, 2011 will be a belter.

[GwilymJJames]

I want to highlight this bit of wishful thinking from the BBC graphics team...



Would that it were BBC; would that it were.

On a different note; does anyone know if the stewards made a decision on the pit-lane incident between (I think) Vettel & Alonso? It said it would be investigated after the race, but I can't see a decision on the FIA website...

[CarlosFerreira]

On a different note; does anyone know if the stewards made a decision on the pit-lane incident between (I think) Vettel & Alonso? It said it would be investigated after the race, but I can't see a decision on the FIA website...

They were investigating it when Alonso dropped it. He'd get the drive-through or a time penalty, and so no points. It's a good job he crashed it.

[FullMetalJack]

I want to highlight this bit of wishful thinking from the BBC graphics team...



Would that it were BBC; would that it were.

On a different note; does anyone know if the stewards made a decision on the pit-lane incident between (I think) Vettel & Alonso? It said it would be investigated after the race, but I can't see a decision on the FIA website...

We can dream.

[RejectSteve]

I have to say, whilst Vettel raced like a total moron and completely deserved a duck egg for today's efforts, I don't think he should've been penalised. He lost control overtaking, it happens. If the FIA start penalising the like of that then they risk disuading drivers from even a slightly risqué manouvre, which is not what F1 needs.

He didn't weave, he didn't go for a gap that wasn't there. He just lost it. It's unfortunate for Button, but I'd consider that a racing incident.

I like this.

I was typing this towards the Whitmarsh comments posted in the Rantbox, but it seems a bit more topical here:

Button had been holding up four or five cars for quite a while - clever to build up Hamilton's lead, suspiciously. If everybody keeps complaining about a lack of overtaking and too many Trulli Trains, you need drivers who are willing to overtake. It isn't as if Vettel intentionally speared into Button's sidepod - he lost it by then. It was certainly Vettel's mistake but sometimes you have to allow racing drivers to, oh I don't know, race.

This bit here is a bit more rantboxy but revolves around this weekend:

In 2008, Hamilton was penalised for being pushed off the road by Raikkonen's FERRARI, allowed Raikko back ahead, and repassed for the lead. This year, at least 15 guys cut the Bus Stop on the opening lap without trying to get back on track for the left-hander. How many guys have to drive 'off course' before its OK to do so? I was against Hamilton's penalty in 2008 because he'd allowed Raikkonen ahead but if they call it once they have to be consistant for every time it happens - even if it makes a farce of the race.

In Hungary, Schumacher pushed Barrichello to the pit wall and was given a penalty. Here, Alonso pushed Liuzzi off the road at the exit of the Bus Stop. Of course the proximity of the wall and the speed were factors in Hungary but when is the rule not the rule? Had Liuzzi kept his car between the white lines at all costs, he'd have been hit by Alonso. As with any on-track action, a penalty would probably been levied against Tonio for causing an avoidable collision because his car isn't a FERRARI.

Yes, I'm standing. (Yeah, its all a bit much, but I hate inconsistant stewarding almost as much as summer itself.

[F1000X]

I really hope Webber takes it, it may be his only chance.

If he does, I doubt it would be his last.

[CarlosFerreira]

In Hungary, Schumacher pushed Barrichello to the pit wall and was given a penalty. Here, Alonso pushed Liuzzi off the road at the exit of the Bus Stop. Of course the proximity of the wall and the speed were factors in Hungary but when is the rule not the rule? Had Liuzzi kept his car between the white lines at all costs, he'd have been hit by Alonso. As with any on-track action, a penalty would probably been levied against Tonio for causing an avoidable collision because his car isn't a FERRARI.

In the BBC coverage, Brundle brilliantly picked up on this as it was happening. His point is it was different: the race line was Alonso's, Liuzzi had lost the initiative by then. I know you're a racer, I wonder how you saw it.

As for Vettel... I was discussing this with Eagle Ash. He nearly pulled a Webber-in-Valencia on Button. Jenson's front wing was knackered (that's why he was holding everyone up) and Vettel was able to brake way much later - but I also reckon Vettel didn't realise whereabouts on the track he was. Jenson, cleverly, parked it in the middle of the road and stayed there. Vettel went for a space which was tight and wet.

[dr-baker]

This year, at least 15 guys cut the Bus Stop on the opening lap without trying to get back on track for the left-hander. How many guys have to drive 'off course' before its OK to do so? I was against Hamilton's penalty in 2008 because he'd allowed Raikkonen ahead but if they call it once they have to be consistant for every time it happens - even if it makes a farce of the race.

At the time of watching this, I remember watching to see how many actually returned and made the final apex - and Button alone did so... And lost no places in doing so, if I remember correctly. But this was only clear from the aerial shot.

[coops]

The BBC website gossip page quotes Christian "I want man-love with Sebastian" Horner as saying Button was to blame for Vettel crashing into him. Something about where Button chose his braking point.

Christian! We get it! In your world Vettel can do no wrong even when he crashes into other cars (including your other driver). Either mount him and get it out of your system or change the bleeding record!

[CarlosFerreira]

The BBC website gossip page quotes Christian "I want man-love with Sebastian" Horner as saying Button was to blame for Vettel crashing into him. Something about where Button chose his braking point.

Christian! We get it! In your world Vettel can do no wrong even when he crashes into other cars (including your other driver). Either mount him and get it out of your system or change the bleeding record!

Not that we expected anything different... but notice how Horner declared Webber and Kovalainen's accident in Valencia as a racing incident, and mentioned that Mark was surprised by Kovalainen braking so early...

[FullMetalJack]

The BBC website gossip page quotes Christian "I want man-love with Sebastian" Horner as saying Button was to blame for Vettel crashing into him. Something about where Button chose his braking point.

Christian! We get it! In your world Vettel can do no wrong even when he crashes into other cars (including your other driver). Either mount him and get it out of your system or change the bleeding record!

Button's fault?, What on earth is he smoking?

[coops]

Button's fault?, What on earth is he smoking?

He in luuuurrrve.

[Klon]

Button's fault?, What on earth is he smoking?

He in luuuurrrve.

Hor-ner and Vet-tel sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G