Your Reject of the Race - Germany!

[Klon]

2. The RTL pundits, for comparing Alonso's win to Spain's victory at the World Cup, hinting that they were both undeserved.

If that was the worst of them, then you missed half the race. I usually like their style of commentary, but daymn, did they drop the ball today.

And I'll roll with Ferrari of course, followed by Force India

[eytl]

To be honest, as pointed out before, there is a painful logic in Ferrari's decision; out of the two drivers, Alonso is probably the more likely to be capable of taking the title, and Massa was already a long way behind him before the race began. And although he had dropped him briefly, Alonso had already begun to catch Massa before the team orders, and had been very quick all weekend. Coupled to that, we know that team orders have not left the sport - we saw Kimi handing over his position in China in 2008, for example, in a similarly choreographed and clear manner, and team orders have been present right from the start of F1 up until now.
Nevertheless, just because they have been frequently used in the past, doesn't lessen the bitter after taste which is left in the mouth after such an incident.

Point well made, and I agree. But I guess the question I want to pose is, when people slam Ferrari right now, is that on the basis of an emotional response, or more reasoned analysis?

Is ROTR based on an emotional response, or reasoned analysis?

[LukeB]

Ferrari but not because they used team orders, all teams use team orders. But the obviousness of it followed by the "whatever are you implying" clumsy attempt at playing innocent afterwards, I don't appreciate being treated like I'm an easily duped simpleton.

[eytl]

Ferrari but not because they used team orders, all teams use team orders. But the obviousness of it followed by the "whatever are you implying" clumsy attempt at playing innocent afterwards, I don't appreciate being treated like I'm an easily duped simpleton.

Ah. This is interesting. But I would ask, what would you have expected Ferrari to say, when they are under such equally-blatant cross-examination by the increasingly-sensationalist media, when - let's face it - EVERYONE knows the score.

If anything, this throws the attention onto the media, and onto the unmanageable "no team orders" rule which only makes everyone play these games.

[DonTirri]

unmanageable "no team orders" rule which only makes everyone play these games.

Unmanageable? What makes it so unmanageable? Just let them bloody race.

[dr-baker]

The first rule of motor racing nearly always has been...









DON'T TAKE YOUR TEAMMATE OUT so Toro Rosso/Jaime Alguersuari for ROTR. Come to think of it, aren't they Ferrari powered?

[LukeB]

Ah. This is interesting. But I would ask, what would you have expected Ferrari to say

The order was clumsily given and apprently their plan for dealing with the inevitable questions afterwards was to assume everyones an idiot and will buy whatever crap they shovel at us. That they couldn't come up with a more subtle way of switching the places, that they didn't have a less obvious code, and most importently that they didn't have any plan to limit the damage (aside from the "treat people like idiots" scheme) says ROTR to me.
Though judging from your responses I won't be putting money on it being the official verdict

[watka]

Let's get the lesser candidates out of the way first (and there aren't that many):

Webber's strategists - I thought that bringing in Vettel whilst he was doing nothing behind the Ferraris was a relatively good call. He came out in clear air, and forced the Ferraris to respond. The decision to bring in Webber the next lap however was incredibly stupid. Surely whilst analysing where Vettel would come out, they also had a look to see where Webber would come out as well? He made one of the quickest pit-stops I have ever seen and still came out behind the McLarens, whereas on a different strategy, he could have been challenging Vettel. I'm not saying there was any sabotage there, only that Red Bull were being ignorant.

Jaime Alguersuari - Jaime did not have the best of starts and his team mate got past him. Clearly, he was not happy about this and cleverly managed to take out his team mate's rear wing at the hairpin. Despite showing flashes of pace this season, Buemi has been far more mature than him (as the drivers' standings show), and he needs to keep his head when he is in the middle of the pack.

Force India - Terrible weekend for the Force. Liuzzi bins it in qualifying, racking up a hefty repair bill. Sutil needs a gearbox change, but despite knowing that he'll get a 5 place drop, he only qualifies 14th (becoming 19th). They were off the pace in the race as well, and most hilariously, they got the drivers' tyres mixed up at the pitstop, meaning that they had to bring both cars in again to change tyres! On any other weekend, that would deserve reject of the race.


However, ROTR is:

Well it depends. The obvious answer is Ferrari. Whilst I can fully understand the move from a championship perspective (Massa is way behind and has had some poor races of late, Alonso is closer to the chase and has clearly had pace recently), they didn't exactly cover it up that it was a team order. Dominicalli was completely helpless to defend himself against the questioning of Eddie Jordan and Jake Humphrey, as were the drivers at the press conference. Rob Smedley's message blew it for the team, perhaps he actually wanted to make it as clear as possible in order that Alonso might be penalised? Either way, I don't think they could have made it much more obvious without telling Massa to just let him through.

However, ROTR depends on whether anything gets done about this incident. If nothing happens, then ROTR is most certainly the FIA. These sorts of team orders have been going on on many occasions since 2002, if only in less prominent cases (i.e. covered up better by a driver pretending he has a problem or being genuinely slower, or just for lower down position), and the FIA has done nothing about it. If they do nothing about Ferrari this time, when there has been an obvious team order which has determined who has won the race, then it is clear that the FIA have brought in a rule which they cannot actually enforce. In other words, we'd be back to square one.

[eagleash]

unmanageable "no team orders" rule which only makes everyone play these games.

Unmanageable? What makes it so unmanageable? Just let them bloody race.

You can let them race & 99% of the time that is what happens, but as Mike Gascoyne just said, teams are always going to prioritise; therefore, you cannot MAKE them race if the the team decides it is in it's own best interest not to do so.
Something that is curious here is that people seem almost to be taken by surprise that this happens in sport.

[Instant Mash]

The blatant-ness of it took me by surprise. You'd think that SURELY a team like Ferrari would be able to somewhat keep it under wraps... But apparently not.

[Ed24]

To be honest, as pointed out before, there is a painful logic in Ferrari's decision; out of the two drivers, Alonso is probably the more likely to be capable of taking the title, and Massa was already a long way behind him before the race began. And although he had dropped him briefly, Alonso had already begun to catch Massa before the team orders, and had been very quick all weekend. Coupled to that, we know that team orders have not left the sport - we saw Kimi handing over his position in China in 2008, for example, in a similarly choreographed and clear manner, and team orders have been present right from the start of F1 up until now.
Nevertheless, just because they have been frequently used in the past, doesn't lessen the bitter after taste which is left in the mouth after such an incident.

Massa wasn't that far behind, only ~12 points on the old system. That isn't much at all at this point in the season.

[Cynon]

I see Christian Horner has made a late bid for ROTR by taking a holier-than-thou position on the Ferrari situation.

Pot. Kettle. Black. Anyone?

I don't think this is so much that he's calling the kettle black but more that Horner wants to inherit wins by default. Remember the Double Decker Diffuser row in 2009? Who spearheaded that row?... well, mostly did. Christian Horner. Who might have benefited the most from winning the DDD row? Red Bull, because they would not have needed to redesign the rear of the car in the way Brawn GP would have.

Because, if Massa and Alonso are disqualified... oh right... Vettel wins.

[Enforcer]

To be honest, as pointed out before, there is a painful logic in Ferrari's decision; out of the two drivers, Alonso is probably the more likely to be capable of taking the title, and Massa was already a long way behind him before the race began. And although he had dropped him briefly, Alonso had already begun to catch Massa before the team orders, and had been very quick all weekend. Coupled to that, we know that team orders have not left the sport - we saw Kimi handing over his position in China in 2008, for example, in a similarly choreographed and clear manner, and team orders have been present right from the start of F1 up until now.
Nevertheless, just because they have been frequently used in the past, doesn't lessen the bitter after taste which is left in the mouth after such an incident.

Massa wasn't that far behind, only ~12 points on the old system. That isn't much at all at this point in the season.

Taking into account that Massa generally only shines when he has the fastest or near fastest car under his arse, which the Ferrari hasn't been, Alonso as the more likely challenger is a fairly safe bet.

[eagleash]

The blatant-ness of it took me by surprise. You'd think that SURELY a team like Ferrari would be able to somewhat keep it under wraps... But apparently not.

Yes. Immediate exchange of tweets that it couldn't be ignored (as the rules stand) on hearing the "sorry" from Smedley.

[eytl]

However, ROTR depends on whether anything gets done about this incident. If nothing happens, then ROTR is most certainly the FIA. These sorts of team orders have been going on on many occasions since 2002, if only in less prominent cases (i.e. covered up better by a driver pretending he has a problem or being genuinely slower, or just for lower down position), and the FIA has done nothing about it. If they do nothing about Ferrari this time, when there has been an obvious team order which has determined who has won the race, then it is clear that the FIA have brought in a rule which they cannot actually enforce. In others, we'd be back to square one.

Could I suggest that, on the other hand, if the FIA DO do something about it, then they are equally subject to criticism. Why take action now? Why not ping Ferrari for China 2008? OK I'm now repeating points I've already made, but what's the difference? Just because it's not for a win? So manufacturing a race result only applies to wins but not other positions?

[Instant Mash]

The way I see it, the FIA will be subject to some level of rejectdom no matter what the outcome...

If they penalize Ferrari, it will bring up the point of why nothing has been done about other situations.
If they don't, then it will just be seen by the majority as Jean Todt being biased towards his former team.

[Cynon]

However, ROTR depends on whether anything gets done about this incident. If nothing happens, then ROTR is most certainly the FIA. These sorts of team orders have been going on on many occasions since 2002, if only in less prominent cases (i.e. covered up better by a driver pretending he has a problem or being genuinely slower, or just for lower down position), and the FIA has done nothing about it. If they do nothing about Ferrari this time, when there has been an obvious team order which has determined who has won the race, then it is clear that the FIA have brought in a rule which they cannot actually enforce. In others, we'd be back to square one.

Could I suggest that, on the other hand, if the FIA DO do something about it, then they are equally subject to criticism. Why take action now? Why not ping Ferrari for China 2008? OK I'm now repeating points I've already made, but what's the difference? Just because it's not for a win? So manufacturing a race result only applies to wins but not other positions?

This brings up another question -- what do the FIA do? What would be the most well-received by Formula 1 fans, or what would be the most well-received by the rulebook? Do you dodge the rules to accommodate a fan-friendly result? The 2010 season has so far answered that question with a big fat YES, because of how many penalties Lewis Hamilton has escaped and gotten away with.

I did not nominate the FIA for ROTR because they're in a tough spot. They can't make everyone happy.

[Ed24]

To be honest, as pointed out before, there is a painful logic in Ferrari's decision; out of the two drivers, Alonso is probably the more likely to be capable of taking the title, and Massa was already a long way behind him before the race began. And although he had dropped him briefly, Alonso had already begun to catch Massa before the team orders, and had been very quick all weekend. Coupled to that, we know that team orders have not left the sport - we saw Kimi handing over his position in China in 2008, for example, in a similarly choreographed and clear manner, and team orders have been present right from the start of F1 up until now.
Nevertheless, just because they have been frequently used in the past, doesn't lessen the bitter after taste which is left in the mouth after such an incident.

Massa wasn't that far behind, only ~12 points on the old system. That isn't much at all at this point in the season.

Taking into account that Massa generally only shines when he has the fastest or near fastest car under his arse, which the Ferrari hasn't been, Alonso as the more likely challenger is a fairly safe bet.

Maybe so, but if he had won the race and gained some confidence, who knows what he could have done. I'm not saying he was more likely to win than Alonso, its just that the gap was too small for this action to be taken. Maybe Alonso crash at the next 3 races. Its the same as Ferrari allowing Schumacher to pass Irvine at Magny-Cours in 1999 just before MS' accident. If that didn't happen, Irvine could have won the title.

Some of his performances in 2009 showed that he is not awful in a slower car as well.

[watka]

However, ROTR depends on whether anything gets done about this incident. If nothing happens, then ROTR is most certainly the FIA. These sorts of team orders have been going on on many occasions since 2002, if only in less prominent cases (i.e. covered up better by a driver pretending he has a problem or being genuinely slower, or just for lower down position), and the FIA has done nothing about it. If they do nothing about Ferrari this time, when there has been an obvious team order which has determined who has won the race, then it is clear that the FIA have brought in a rule which they cannot actually enforce. In others, we'd be back to square one.

Could I suggest that, on the other hand, if the FIA DO do something about it, then they are equally subject to criticism. Why take action now? Why not ping Ferrari for China 2008? OK I'm now repeating points I've already made, but what's the difference? Just because it's not for a win? So manufacturing a race result only applies to wins but not other positions?

It is true that they were wrong to do nothing in the past, but in my view they should take this opportunity to prove that the team orders rule is not a complete joke, rather than ignoring the situation. All hell could break loose if they do nothing. An illustration would be a kid who goes into a shop and steals some penny sweets. He gets away with it, so next time he goes in and steal a couple of comic books. Next thing, he goes into town and starts stealing CDs from the record shop. Eventually, he breaks into an electrical store in the middle of the night and steals thousands of pounds/dollars worth of goods. At some point, this kid should have been stopped. The same for the team orders, a line needs to be drawn somewhere rather than just doing nothing.

[fjackdaw]

So manufacturing a race result only applies to wins but not other positions?

Maybe not legally, but certainly emotionally it's the bigger crime. Second, third, fourth positions, and further down, it's annoying to have less points, but other than that it's no real big deal big deal where you finish. You're still one of the losers. But a win is a win. It adds to your win tally, it goes down in the history books, it's the reason why you're there. And it's the reason why the fans are there, and paying upward of a hundred quid in many cases. The win is the important position, and nobody wants to feel they've been cheated out of seeing a fair and square win.

At the same time, I'd like to un-nominate the FIA, whatever the result. If they decide it was a blatant team order, which it was, fair enough. But if they don't, then fair enough too - no actual order was given, it was a team 'suggestion', and perhaps in the future they need to clarify such things, but as far as the rule books go, Ferrari have probably stuck to the letter, if not the spirit, of the law.

[ADx_Wales]

No order was given?

"Fernando is faster than you, do you get the message"

I'm sorry, but Felipe has EVERY GOD DAMN RIGHT to defend his position, no matter how much of a stuck up pinhead the team mate is, that message is QUITE CHUFFING CLEAR, there is no way Ferrari could say "let him past" they are spineless and corrupt, this message is a blatant example of that.

[Warren Hughes]

ROTR is Force India. That's all I'm saying.

[coops]

Its funny that this thread and the race discussion thread are now one and the same!

My reject would be Seb Vettel for being so interested in keeping Alonso behind him he messed his race up. However, in the press conference, after the palpable tension from the Ferrari drivers, I thought he was very dignified. Unless he just knew Ferrari are about to have the win taken from them

[Ferrim]

Force India.

[Ferrim]

To be honest, as pointed out before, there is a painful logic in Ferrari's decision; out of the two drivers, Alonso is probably the more likely to be capable of taking the title, and Massa was already a long way behind him before the race began. And although he had dropped him briefly, Alonso had already begun to catch Massa before the team orders, and had been very quick all weekend. Coupled to that, we know that team orders have not left the sport - we saw Kimi handing over his position in China in 2008, for example, in a similarly choreographed and clear manner, and team orders have been present right from the start of F1 up until now.
Nevertheless, just because they have been frequently used in the past, doesn't lessen the bitter after taste which is left in the mouth after such an incident.

Massa wasn't that far behind, only ~12 points on the old system. That isn't much at all at this point in the season.

The relevant gap is the one to the leaders, not the one between the drivers. After Monza in 2007, with 40 points to go, Räikkönen was 18 points behind Hamilton, Massa was 23 points. It was made pretty clear that after Monza's result Räikkönen was the chosen driver by Ferrari, as his chances (though slim) were better. And so Räikkönen won at Spa, in front of Massa.

This year Alonso was something like 18-19 points behind and Massa something like 31, in old money. On top of that, Alonso has been the quicker driver. I find logical that Ferrari went for Alonso.

[Waris]

I'll be extremely disappointed if that race review comes out in a few weeks and doesn't say:

Reject of the Race
Ferrari

For reasons too obvious.

Force India gets off the hook like lucky b*astards, because their performance was utterly shameful and rejectful.

[Collieafc]

The drunk British guys on the train from Hockenheim back to Heidelberg, bringing unwarranted and misplaced nationalism to Formula One - "Vettel is a w*nker, Vettel is a w*nker", "Come on Lewis, Come on Lewis, Come on Lewis..."

And

The RTL pundits, for comparing Alonso's win to Spain's victory at the World Cup, hinting that they were both undeserved.

Makes jingoistic nationalism in F1 my ROTR vote

[Barbazza]

Much as I've liked him and disliked DC up to now on the whole, I have to say EJ for making a complete meal of the whole team orders thing and treating it as if someone had just nuked Ireland.

Particularly laughable was the bit where he said how disgraceful it was and that it was just because Alonso was being petulant and spoilt, then a few minutes later saying that at the Belgian GP 98 Damon Hill had told him that if Ralf tried to get by he would have 'shoved him off the track' which is why he told them to hold station. Hmmm. Oh, of course there were no rules against it so that was alright apparently.

It's all a load of shite frankly. As DC said, all the teams operate team orders, and if the guys in the 50s and 60s who regularly raced so hard that they were at serious risks of losing their lives were happy to cede to their team mates and in those days even hand their *cars* over I don't see why the modern F1 world can't cope with it.

[shinji]

There was a hint of booing as the Ferraris drove past after the 'incident', but it was drowned out by the engines, but it's only since I heard the team radio that I realised how dodgy it really was. Hopefully Alonso gets disqualified, and we get some more Kobayashi points!

Realistically though, Ferrari might get their points from the race taken off them. Or nothing other than the €65,000. We'll see.

[dr-baker]

Isn't it strange that Vettel nearly shoving Alonso into the wall at the start (the reason Massa was in the lead at the first corner to start with!) has barely warranted a mention by anybody!

...from the German GP discussion. If it weren't for the Ferrari affair, and the Force muddling up their drivers' tyres (which is rejectworthy, but understandable considering both were coming in at the same time), then this could well have been the ROTR moment.

[DemocalypseNow]

Ferrari - If you're going to enforce team orders, at least come up with a secret keyword for it so the whole world doesn't actually know what it is. 'Orange Delta 3' or something, I don't know...
Force India - They made Hispania look like a professional outfit. Both drivers qualified amongst the newbies and stayed there. Two pitstops for each driver in the first five laps, for a tyre mix-up no less, is inexcusable at this level.
Williams - Did nothing with their good qualifying.

[jackanderton]

Rob Smedley has apparently said Massa made a mistake when upshifting, hence him slowing down. What do Ferrari take us for??? That's just insulting to F1 fans frankly.

Seriously?

That pisses me off so much I'm changing my vote from Force India to Ferrari.

[Yannick]

Nominee #1: Team orders leading to drivers from the same squad switching positions in the race

Nominee #2:Heikki Kovalainen for destroying Pedro DLR's nosecone whilst lapping

Nominee #3:the bad luck of Toro Rosso - both cars unable to challenge for anything after the 1st lap melee - or whoever caused that melee

Nominee #3:Force India: a weekend to forget for the former Jordan team that somehow still got the Irish colours on their cars

[Myrvold]

Also, very few people detract from Jordan's first win in 1998 because of: "Ralf, you cannot overtake Damon. That is a team order."

Although Brundle and Coulthard were right to say on ITV that the team management should've said it to Felipe instead of making Smedley do it.

And to the other guys bashing EJ. I agree with him, he did it on a time when they were allowed to give team orders, that makes it OK. And if you think about, of course Damon said that he was going to take RSC out, just think how it would be for Hill to be beaten by Michael Schumachers brother for a win...

Anyway, it is not legal anymore, and therefor, Ferrari is the one I vote for.

And last: Guys, before comparing this to Massa/Raikkonen in 07 and then 08. That was something that was planned in advance, they didn't get an order to do it the same way as today, neither did you see anyone feel let down because of it. That is something you did see today, you could clearly see that there was something wrong.

[AllAmericanReject]

Easiest ROTR of the season: Ferrari.

By the way, Senna never would have taken a win like this. He would have either passed Massa or wrecked him. I am practically choking on the crap spewed by Ferrari about Valencia being a manipulated race. Now we'll see if Jean Todt has the stones to correct this.

[shinji]

Easiest ROTR of the season: Ferrari.

By the way, Senna never would have taken a win like this. He would have either passed Massa or wrecked him. I am practically choking on the crap spewed by Ferrari about Valencia being a manipulated race. Now we'll see if Jean Todt has the stones to correct this.

And he is relevant... why? I doubt Alonso's too concerned with Senna comparisons to be honest.

[eytl]

I'll be extremely disappointed if that race review comes out in a few weeks and doesn't say:

Reject of the Race
Ferrari

For reasons too obvious.

Well, I can't please everyone all the time. I think you can tell from my posts on the subject that you'll probably be disappointed ... sorry!

[Dom]

I'd throw the book at Ferrari to be honest.

It is true that team orders are a part of motorsport and the ban on them is, to an extent, unenforceable. And I don't think anyone really minds when a driver who can't win the championship moves over to help his teammate who can. Basically what the rule amounts to is the FIA saying to the teams "come on lads, let's not be stupid about this, only use team orders discreetly and sensibly". Ferrari precipitated the whole thing in 2002 by blatantly and unnecessarily making Barrichello move over in Austria. Since then we've had a number of cases which were almost certainly team orders (Massa for Raikonnen in 2007 and Raikonnen for Massa in 2008 have already been mentioned) but which were executed subtly and when one driver was out of championship contention. What rankles about this is that a) it was handled horrendously, b) it's still quite early in the season and c) Ferrari seem to think that everybody watching is a fool. And if they aren't disciplined properly then the whole field will know the price of team orders is $100 000 and a slap on the wrist.

[ADx_Wales]

Can Enoch be reject if he doesn't announce Ferrari as Reject of the Race...

[mario]

Can Enoch be reject if he doesn't announce Ferrari as Reject of the Race...

It is at his discretion to choose the award as he sees fit - if he bent to public opinion every time, then the Reject of the Race award would ultimately be awarded depending on who shouted their case the loudest, which is something I'd rather avoid.