European GP could move from Valencia to ...

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 02 Jul 2010, 06:48

... Majorca. True story. And if it happens, it won't be on a Tilkedrome. Once has to wonder just how serious Llucmajor is, given that the population is less than ten thousand.

Given Majorca's reputation for scoundrels and naughty men, Bernie must be feeling right at home.

coops · Post by **coops** » 02 Jul 2010, 06:51

I can see it now, 'Yellow Flags at turn 13 - Drunk Brits on racetrack'

Post by **mario** » 02 Jul 2010, 08:40

Captain Hammer wrote:... Majorca. True story. And if it happens, it won't be on a Tilkedrome. Once has to wonder just how serious Llucmajor is, given that the population is less than ten thousand.

Given Majorca's reputation for scoundrels and naughty men, Bernie must be feeling right at home.

Where on earth would Llucmajor suddenly find the money for such an expensive project? Something tells me that this sounds like a publicity stunt and nothing more. That said, even if he did pull it off, it can't be worse then Valencia.
On a more serious note, where could the European GP go to? The Nuerburgring might hold the race again (that seems the most likely option), with Hockenheim getting the German GP, but I reckon that another option would be, as a slightly more off the wall option, would be Motorland Aragon - the circuit is up to F1 standards, both in terms of safety and facilities, so it would work well.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 02 Jul 2010, 11:25

Bring the A1 Ring back.

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 02 Jul 2010, 11:27

Bring Donington back. Oh wait...

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 02 Jul 2010, 12:14

kostas22 wrote:Bring the A1 Ring back.

Actually, Dietrich Mateschitz has said that it's a possibility in the future. The circuit has been renamed the Red Bull Ring and is due to host a round of the DTMs either late this year or early next, and if it's a success, then Formula 1 might return. It seems the success of Red Bull Racing is piquing interest in the revival of the Austrian race. It will, however, be on a redesigned circuit. The A1 Ring was just too short for Formula 1.

Post by **mario** » 02 Jul 2010, 12:18

kostas22 wrote:Bring the A1 Ring back.

It'd be a bit difficult when they still haven't finished the reconstruction work - although a DTM race is scheduled for the end of this year, so hopefully we will finally see what the redone A1 Ring looks like.
Anyway, where else could they go? I wouldn't mind seeing a French circuit, because it is a shame to leave them out, but where could you go? Mangy Cours has always had infrastructure problems, and been a bit dull, whilst most other circuits I can think of would be unsuitable. And as things stand, although there has been talk of yet another street circuit, I doubt that is going to happen (because every time the idea is brought up, it is eventually dropped for one reason or another).

As for a few of the other old favourites, Imola is, I believe, also still undergoing reconstruction, so that is probably out of the question for a while yet, whilst Jerez is regularly used for testing, but it seems F1 will never go back there to race. And, of course, we know what happened to Donnington when someone tried to reconstruct that circuit.
Anybody got any other good suggestions?

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 02 Jul 2010, 13:40

Magny-Cours is said to be working on a "discreet" campaign to rejoin the calendar.

Portimao seems to be popular with fans as a potential venue, but it seems to have produced a few processional races of late and the initial hype has waned.

Potrero de los Funes is another popular one, but local politics stop it from happening (ie: the race won't happen without government support, but the circuit is in San Luis and San Luis is controlled by the national opposition). I have heard that a group of private investors are trying to do something about it, though.

RejectSteve · Post by **RejectSteve** » 02 Jul 2010, 18:25

mario wrote:As for a few of the other old favourites, Imola is, I believe, also still undergoing reconstruction, so that is probably out of the question for a while yet...
Anybody got any other good suggestions?

Imola is up and running, it hosted WTCC's Race of Italy (or was it Europe?) last year and A1GP tested their Dallara/Ferrari car in Summer 2008.

I'd say take a grand prix to Arctic Circle Raceway. There's some decent runoff areas. Financing... ihhh.

http://www.racefoto.se/Racetrackssidan/ArticCR.html

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 02 Jul 2010, 18:42

Bring in a second US race. :mrgreen:

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 02 Jul 2010, 18:53

Cynon wrote:Bring in a second US race.

At Martinsville, as previously discussed on these forums...

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 02 Jul 2010, 19:00

Can't we just bring back the French Grand Prix at Paul Ricard.

Post by **mario** » 02 Jul 2010, 19:11

RejectSteve wrote:
mario wrote:As for a few of the other old favourites, Imola is, I believe, also still undergoing reconstruction, so that is probably out of the question for a while yet...
Anybody got any other good suggestions?

Imola is up and running, it hosted WTCC's Race of Italy (or was it Europe?) last year and A1GP tested their Dallara/Ferrari car in Summer 2008.

I'd say take a grand prix to Arctic Circle Raceway. There's some decent runoff areas. Financing... ihhh.

http://www.racefoto.se/Racetrackssidan/ArticCR.html

Ah, I stand crrected then - that said, Imola appears to only hold an F1T licence, so although a team could test there, it currently isn't up to holding a race, according to the FIA (the same for Paul Ricard).
As for that Arctic Circle track, it looks interesting to say the least. That said, wasn't there a time during the 1930's when Grand Prix racing (the pre-war forerunner of F1) used to occasionally race on ice circuits? We've already seen Buemi drive a Red Bull car in the depths of the Canadian winter, and Heidfeld did once take an F1 car to a snow rally for a publicity stunt, so perhaps someone could suggest it to Bernie :lol:

redbulljack14 wrote:Can't we just bring back the French Grand Prix at Paul Ricard.

Unfortunately, it has the wrong licence (it only has an F1 testing licence), because there are virtually no spectator facilities.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 02 Jul 2010, 19:11

redbulljack14 wrote:Can't we just bring back the French Grand Prix at Paul Ricard.

Yeah, sure.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 02 Jul 2010, 19:49

Regarding the Arctic Cirlce. It isn't that much snow over a too big time there. I mean, there is more than down here in south of Norway (and we still don't start racing outdoor until April/May...) but it would be the only circuit north of the Arctic Circle? I do think they hosted a STCC race there once, but money is a big problem there anyway, it isn't running any races anymore.

While we are at tracks in Norway, Lånkebanen is planned reopened, they had some Hydro Treser Aliminum Cup - races in the 80's.

Vålerbanen have had some STCC races, but not exactly a big track.

And last, Rudskogen, even Schumacher (Michael) owns a 5% stock in that, is led by Harald Huysman (the guy that found Raikkonen, and helped Button, didn't succeed with Neel Jani though. He also almost run some races with EuroBrun... only almost, was stuck in world sportscar). They have a plan to build a track with F1 testing license at least, but the work have stopped because som archelogical(misspelled) finds...

watka · Post by **watka** » 02 Jul 2010, 20:54

The Majorca proposal looks a lot like the Ricardo Tormo circuit in Valencia and the Algarve circuit.

Motorland Aragon seems like the best circuit to hold a second European race (unless they can make a safe Montjuich Park track!).

JeanDenisAlcatraz · Post by **JeanDenisAlcatraz** » 02 Jul 2010, 21:51

Captain Hammer wrote:
kostas22 wrote:Bring the A1 Ring back.

Actually, Dietrich Mateschitz has said that it's a possibility in the future. The circuit has been renamed the Red Bull Ring and is due to host a round of the DTMs either late this year or early next, and if it's a success, then Formula 1 might return. It seems the success of Red Bull Racing is piquing interest in the revival of the Austrian race. It will, however, be on a redesigned circuit. The A1 Ring was just too short for Formula 1.

As long is it's in the second half of the lap. I used to love the old run up to that tight hairpin - it was an incredible corner.

I'm in two minds, though. I like the A1 Ring, but I like Imola too...but which is best? There's only one way to find out!!!

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 02 Jul 2010, 23:22

JeanDenisAlcatraz wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:
kostas22 wrote:Bring the A1 Ring back.

Actually, Dietrich Mateschitz has said that it's a possibility in the future. The circuit has been renamed the Red Bull Ring and is due to host a round of the DTMs either late this year or early next, and if it's a success, then Formula 1 might return. It seems the success of Red Bull Racing is piquing interest in the revival of the Austrian race. It will, however, be on a redesigned circuit. The A1 Ring was just too short for Formula 1.

As long is it's in the second half of the lap. I used to love the old run up to that tight hairpin - it was an incredible corner.

I'm in two minds, though. I like the A1 Ring, but I like Imola too...but which is best? There's only one way to find out!!!

A very long and boring verbal debate between Jarno Trulli and Jacques Villeneuve?

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 02 Jul 2010, 23:29

"boring verbal debate" and "jacques villeneuve" in the same sentence... wtf?

Aerond · Post by **Aerond** » 03 Jul 2010, 00:26

I don´t think Motorland would provide great races, and the access to Alcañiz (the city where it´s placed) are shite anyway. I also think we shouldn´t take the Mallorca project seriously. Realistically, I only can think of Nurburgring as a valid place to go, but I would love see F1 cars perform in Brno, it would be a great place for an F1 race.
About France... Paul Ricard is the perfect track, but wrong place.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 03 Jul 2010, 01:36

JeanDenisAlcatraz wrote:As long is it's in the second half of the lap. I used to love the old run up to that tight hairpin - it was an incredible corner.

I'm not entirely sure what the plan is. Formula 1 outgrew the A1 Ring when Villeneuve started threatening to do a lap in under a minute. Hermann Tilke was commissioned to come up with a circuit design and did what I think is a nice job of it:

However, a group of environmentalists took exception to this and moved to stop development. They waited until the pit buildings had been demolished before raising objections, meaning that the owners couldn't rebuild the facilitied and effectively leaving the circuit useless. Mateschitz purchased it with a view to using it as a private test circuit for Red Bull, but never intended to host Formula 1 races on it. Now, however, he seems to have changed his mind. But I don't know how serious he is. The DTMs have an exhibition race there at the end of the season, which seems to be a litmus test for the circuit. If it's a success, maybe a revived Austrian Grand Prix is on the cards.

However, I don't know whether the Westerschleife extensions proposed by Tilke have been built.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 03 Jul 2010, 01:50

The Westerschleife extension looks good to me except that hairpin like thing before Remus. I don't see the point to that hairpin unless there is an obstacle (Read: Steep Hill) in the way.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 03 Jul 2010, 03:49

Wizzie wrote:The Westerschleife extension looks good to me except that hairpin like thing before Remus. I don't see the point to that hairpin unless there is an obstacle (Read: Steep Hill) in the way.

It is, more than anything else, Tilke showing his number one influence as a circuit designer: the Nurburgring. That corner seems to come just after the crest on top of the old hill and looks to be an imitation of Wehrseifen. Wehrseifen is a downhill right-hander into a long, constant-radius blind left-hander and then a blind right to finish. CHeck out 3:24-3:35 on this video to see what I mean.

However, I have to repeat myself a bit here: I don't know if the Westerschleife extension ever went ahead.

JohnMLTX · Post by **JohnMLTX** » 03 Jul 2010, 23:53

A week before that news was posted I drew this for the beat hermann tilke thread.
http://yfrog.com/0cphilhillj
look at the proposed track from majorca and then my design backwards.

...

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 04 Jul 2010, 13:00

In 1983 Brands hosted a Euro GP at short notice after somewhere else was cancelled. & again in 1985.
The current circuit falls short of current F1 requirements but Jonathan Palmer is an ambitious man & is capable of "getting things done".
He has said in the past that the current Indy circuit could be brought up to standard & that a new "GP extension" could be be built on land already owned, to the North of the current track. The only obstacle of course being money!

& Bernie.

Not particularly likely of course. But you never know. There is quite a bit of land surrounding the track which could be utilised for improved run-off areas etc. & much needed upgraded spectator facilities. Some work has already been carried out improving neglected areas of the existing track.
With a good number of teams based in UK it might be a popular choice amongst the competitors.

watka · Post by **watka** » 04 Jul 2010, 13:52

Considering the numbers of German drivers on the grid, and that Vettel is a major championship contender, Germany may be a candidate for the European GP. However, F1 is already well established in the German market, so there may not be that much incentive.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 04 Jul 2010, 14:06

watka wrote:Considering the numbers of German drivers on the grid, and that Vettel is a major championship contender, Germany may be a candidate for the European GP. However, F1 is already well established in the German market, so there may not be that much incentive.

Preferably run on the OLD Nurburgring......

Post by **mario** » 04 Jul 2010, 15:42

watka wrote:Considering the numbers of German drivers on the grid, and that Vettel is a major championship contender, Germany may be a candidate for the European GP. However, F1 is already well established in the German market, so there may not be that much incentive.

The German market is somewhat oversaturated, thanks to Bernie's marketing of Schumacher (the German broadcaster RMT pays Bernie a lot of money to show the races, and are quite easily the highest paying broadcaster, following the success of Schumacher), so although it is a nice idea, I doubt that you could get that much more out of the German market.
Besides, bear in mind that at the moment, the German GP alternates between Hockenheim and the modern Nurburgring, due to costs (basically, because of the fees Bernie charges, neither track can afford to permanently host a race, so they take it in turns to spread the cost out). Although the Nurburgring could hold the race again - and is where the European GP has been most of the time - it could create a few peoblems with the German GP contract.

eagleash wrote:In 1983 Brands hosted a Euro GP at short notice after somewhere else was cancelled. & again in 1985.
The current circuit falls short of current F1 requirements but Jonathan Palmer is an ambitious man & is capable of "getting things done".
He has said in the past that the current Indy circuit could be brought up to standard & that a new "GP extension" could be be built on land already owned, to the North of the current track. The only obstacle of course being money! & Bernie.
Not particularly likely of course. But you never know. There is quite a bit of land surrounding the track which could be utilised for improved run-off areas etc. & much needed upgraded spectator facilities. Some work has already been carried out improving neglected areas of the existing track.
With a good number of teams based in UK it might be a popular choice amongst the competitors.

Haven't there been quite a few problems with noise pollution? I'm fairly certain that complaints about the noise were one reason why F1 couldn't race at Brands Hatch again. Besides, it would cost a lot of money to get Brands Hatch up to F1 standards - and, as we saw with the Donnington disaster, without a secure credit line, you could end up with half a track and rather big bill...

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 04 Jul 2010, 17:42

mario wrote:
eagleash wrote:In 1983 Brands hosted a Euro GP at short notice after somewhere else was cancelled. & again in 1985.
The current circuit falls short of current F1 requirements but Jonathan Palmer is an ambitious man & is capable of "getting things done".
He has said in the past that the current Indy circuit could be brought up to standard & that a new "GP extension" could be be built on land already owned, to the North of the current track. The only obstacle of course being money! & Bernie.
Not particularly likely of course. But you never know. There is quite a bit of land surrounding the track which could be utilised for improved run-off areas etc. & much needed upgraded spectator facilities. Some work has already been carried out improving neglected areas of the existing track.
With a good number of teams based in UK it might be a popular choice amongst the competitors.

Haven't there been quite a few problems with noise pollution? I'm fairly certain that complaints about the noise were one reason why F1 couldn't race at Brands Hatch again. Besides, it would cost a lot of money to get Brands Hatch up to F1 standards - and, as we saw with the Donnington disaster, without a secure credit line, you could end up with half a track and rather big bill...

Yes there have been problems with noise pollution but they (as has been mentioned before) are allowed a number of days "noisy running" each year. They were thus able to run the A1GP events without problem. Which seemed to me to be virtually as noisy as F1.
& re the point in respect of money...my original post did point out that this would be a problem...
Also adding that the whole idea was not very likely.....

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 04 Jul 2010, 19:17

There's an FIA certified international racetrack (albiet not a very good one) in Ireland... 8-)

P_Friesacher · Post by **P_Friesacher** » 05 Jul 2010, 00:50

This Mallorca circuit may not be by Tilke, but it still looks extremely Tilke-y without any obvious spots for overtaking.

Regarding the rumours that Formula 1 might return to the former A1 Ring, Mateschitz has denied this in an interview with an Austrian Newspaper.

Austrian newspaper "Salzburger Nachrichten" wrote:SN: Im Fahrerlager wird seit Istanbul gemunkelt, Ecclestone habe Sie ersucht, mit Spielberg 2011 bereit zu sein, falls ein Grand Prix in Asien ausfallen sollte. Stimmt das, könnte es ein Formel-1-Comeback – das bei „Spielberg neu“ nie Ihr Ziel war – geben?
Mateschitz: Das ist ein unfassbarer Unsinn. Leider werden solche Blödheiten verbreitet und von vielen Medien übernommen. Ich kann nur sagen, von so einer Rückkehr weiß Bernie nichts, und ich weiß davon auch nichts. Da ist nichts dran.

which roughly means (please forgive any errors I might have made, italics mine:)
SN (The newspaper): Some rumours have been making the rounds in the paddock since the race in Istanbul saying that Mr. Ecclestone has asked you to be ready [to hold a race on the] racetrack in Spielberg [i.e. the former A1 Ring] in 2011, in case one of the Grands Prix in Asia has to be cancelled. Is it true that Formula 1 might make a comeback there, despite this never being your goal with the redesign of the circuit?
Mateschitz: This is unfathomable nonsense. Sadly such rubbish is being disseminated and reported by the media. I can only say that Bernie does not know anything about such a return [of F1 to Spielberg], and neither do I. There is no truth in it."

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 05 Jul 2010, 04:25

P_Friesacher wrote:This Mallorca circuit may not be by Tilke, but it still looks extremely Tilke-y without any obvious spots for overtaking.

Regarding the rumours that Formula 1 might return to the former A1 Ring, Mateschitz has denied this in an interview with an Austrian Newspaper.

Austrian newspaper "Salzburger Nachrichten" wrote:SN: Im Fahrerlager wird seit Istanbul gemunkelt, Ecclestone habe Sie ersucht, mit Spielberg 2011 bereit zu sein, falls ein Grand Prix in Asien ausfallen sollte. Stimmt das, könnte es ein Formel-1-Comeback – das bei „Spielberg neu“ nie Ihr Ziel war – geben?
Mateschitz: Das ist ein unfassbarer Unsinn. Leider werden solche Blödheiten verbreitet und von vielen Medien übernommen. Ich kann nur sagen, von so einer Rückkehr weiß Bernie nichts, und ich weiß davon auch nichts. Da ist nichts dran.

which roughly means (please forgive any errors I might have made, italics mine:)

SN (The newspaper): Some rumours have been making the rounds in the paddock since the race in Istanbul saying that Mr. Ecclestone has asked you to be ready [to hold a race on the] racetrack in Spielberg [i.e. the former A1 Ring] in 2011, in case one of the Grands Prix in Asia has to be cancelled. Is it true that Formula 1 might make a comeback there, despite this never being your goal with the redesign of the circuit?
Mateschitz: This is unfathomable nonsense. Sadly such rubbish is being disseminated and reported by the media. I can only say that Bernie does not know anything about such a return [of F1 to Spielberg], and neither do I. There is no truth in it."

So. We can expect the annoncement of a return to The A1 Ring imminently then.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 05 Jul 2010, 04:29

I don't understand this obsession with the maximum number of overtaking spots. Some of the current circuits - Barcelona, Hockenheim, Suzuka - only have one or two, so the argument that a circuit is not a worthy addition to the calendar because of a lack of overtaking points is ridiculous. If a circuit was creates where every corner affored an opportunity to overtake, it would jsut look like AVUS ... and then you'd be criticising it for having no variety.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 05 Jul 2010, 05:24

Captain Hammer wrote:I don't understand this obsession with the maximum number of overtaking spots. Some of the current circuits - Barcelona, Hockenheim, Suzuka - only have one or two, so the argument that a circuit is not a worthy addition to the calendar because of a lack of overtaking points is ridiculous. If a circuit was creates where every corner affored an opportunity to overtake, it would jsut look like AVUS ... and then you'd be criticising it for having no variety.

Barcelona and Hockenheim are also universally panned here for producing awful races.

Bleu · Post by **Bleu** » 05 Jul 2010, 06:23

Enforcer wrote:There's an FIA certified international racetrack (albiet not a very good one) in Ireland...

Do you mean Mondello Park?

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 05 Jul 2010, 07:34

thehemogoblin wrote:Barcelona and Hockenheim are also universally panned here for producing awful races.

What about Suzuka, then? You can only really catch the other guy going into the Casio Triangle. You might get a run into the hairpin if you're lucky. And Interlagos? The best chance for overtaking is into the Senna S, and maybe at Subdia do Lagos if you're Jenson Button and the other guy is Romain Grosjean. Spa? It has two - at the end of Radillion and into the Bus Stop, and if you miss at the Bus Stop you have a chance at La Source if you're lucky. There's a whole host of circuits on the calendar that only have one or two consistent passing points, so to criticise Mallorca for only having one is a little unfair. There's a new circuit in Russia called the NRING that I saw over at Autosport (don't both going yourself, the forums are rubbish), and again, they criticise it for only having one passing point (and if you raise the point that other circuits only have one or two passing points, you're ignored). It's as if the circuit designers simply cannot win, whoever they are. If they produce a circuit with minimal overtaking points, they get run out of town for not including enough. If they build a circuit with a dozen, they get targeted for building something like AVUS. What the hell do you people want!?

Personally, I believe that a lack of overtaking is not a by-product of poor circuit design, but of the car regulations. Just look at how many quality passes we've had this year on circuits that are both new and old alike. Canada, for me, is the proof that something needs to be done about the cars because of the way the Montreal circuit treated tyres.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 05 Jul 2010, 08:37

I don't know if this is nonsense, but one thing that strikes me as potentially silly is the talk of "overtaking spot". Obvious overtaking spots mean obvious defending spots. It's probably interesting to have an obvious zone, where a much faster car can pass a much slower one - but isn't it more to the point that the circuit will allow improvisation? If there's one thing that Valencia demonstrates, in my opinion, is that sharp hairpins at the end of long straights aren't enough if it turns out there's is only one possible trajectory.

RAK · Post by **RAK** » 05 Jul 2010, 12:14

Enforcer wrote:There's an FIA certified international racetrack (albiet not a very good one) in Ireland...

Yes, a Class 4 licenced track, if I remember correctly. I think, though, it would race like the Hungaroring - very little overtaking thanks to the tightness of the circuit.

Tealy · Post by **Tealy** » 05 Jul 2010, 16:00

CarlosFerreira wrote:I don't know if this is nonsense, but one thing that strikes me as potentially silly is the talk of "overtaking spot". Obvious overtaking spots mean obvious defending spots. It's probably interesting to have an obvious zone, where a much faster car can pass a much slower one - but isn't it more to the point that the circuit will allow improvisation? If there's one thing that Valencia demonstrates, in my opinion, is that sharp hairpins at the end of long straights aren't enough if it turns out there's is only one possible trajectory.

Agreed. It's why many people rave about some of the turns at Sepang because of the numerous lines into the corners.

JeanDenisAlcatraz · Post by **JeanDenisAlcatraz** » 05 Jul 2010, 16:48

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Oulton Park.

And no, not just because it's an hour from my house...

Seriously, though, how about somewhere in Holland? Those guys are still mental about motorsport. Maybe not Zandvoort, but surely there's somewhere that can get a Euro GP together.