2016 Spanish Grand Prix

[James1978]

1. Mercedes
2. Vettel's strategy - that was the one which totally baffled me. OK that 8-lap 3rd stint helped him undercut Ricciardo, but in doing so, it meant his tyres were only a couple of laps newer than the 2-stoppers. So if they'd have had to stop again, most likely he would as well!

[James1978]

Oops wrong thread. I was laughing my head off when that happened on the 1st lap though

[Miguel98]

I think the most impressive thing about Max's race was how he handled the pressure from Raikkonen.

He basically did about 25 phenomenal third sectors, to manage the traction out of the final corner, to get the gap to defend from Kimi. Only in 1 lap did Kimi get close enough to try a move, but he chose not to.

[Dj_bereta]

I really want to see what happened with Palmer and Magnussen in the last lap. This race was the "team mate battle race". Hamilton and Rosberg emulating Senna vs Prost; Gutierrez and Grosjean touching wheels; Ericsson angry with Nasr saying he was defending his position in a dangerous way; Palmer and Magnussen collision in the last lap.

[DOSBoot]

Of all the races I forgot to DVR, it had to be this one.

[tommykl]

Now, I don't make it a secret that I do not like Max Verstappen one single bit, and a popular maiden victory won't change that. I still maintain that he was massively helped by the Mercedes incident and strategies for Ricciardo and Vettel that, in hindsight, turned out pretty badly. All he had to do was use his car's superior traction to keep Räikkönen behind (who had tyres just as old as Verstappen's, by the way), and to his credit, he did that job perfectly.

However, I refuse to believe that Red Bull would be malicious enough to deliberately screw over Ricciardo in favour of Verstappen. They may have done it to Mark Webber in the past, but Webber wasn't a Red Bull junior driver. Ricciardo is.

[tommykl]

[DOSBoot]

Saw the race online just now. Great start, got a little bland in the middle, but the last 15 laps were great! HAPPY END!

[Meatwad]

^^ It should be noted that not only are many fans biased, incidents are often judged based on the outcome (both by stewards and fans). The most desperate divebombs are considered the most impressive overtakes if the driver ahead decides to give up the position. If they shut the door, the would-be overtaker hits them and gets a penalty. Often this depends on who's ahead...

[lance_rambert]

However, I refuse to believe that Red Bull would be malicious enough to deliberately screw over Ricciardo in favour of Verstappen.

It bugs (edit, hyperbolic wording) me to read around (here and other places) and see people suggesting something as silly as that. Yes, we're likely all very aware of such things happening before, but honestly, what would the point be if Red Bull really did fix the result? Look at where the teams are at right now, performance-wise. Yes, Lewis and Nico were total goits today, but Toto and friends will make sure to prevent another incident like that. If that takes team orders, so be it. Once that's sorted, they'll likely romp away to another WDC and WCC because no other team/engine supplier has sorted their shite out yet. Are Red Bull really going to try and push for Verstappen to be the 2016 WDC? Fat chance. I also really doubt that Red Bull would want to throw out a damn double podium (they could've had a 1-2!) and a chance for 2nd in the WCC just to keep their golden boy happy. Seriously, why?

Yes, I know about the brutal circumstances around the race, what with Kvyat getting demoted and all. I know Max was likely fast-tracked to F1, and for good reason. The kid earned it by showing overall maturity when racing up the ladder. I don't know if I should go any further, so I'm not.

Just because a certain sequence of events happens doesn't mean that there's this overly sinister narrative behind it. I think there's already enough of that in the Mercedes fan camp, especially in Lewis's tent.

[Samster]

Now, I don't make it a secret that I do not like Max Verstappen one single bit, and a popular maiden victory won't change that. I still maintain that he was massively helped by the Mercedes incident and strategies for Ricciardo and Vettel that, in hindsight, turned out pretty badly. All he had to do was use his car's superior traction to keep Räikkönen behind (who had tyres just as old as Verstappen's, by the way), and to his credit, he did that job perfectly.

However, I refuse to believe that Red Bull would be malicious enough to deliberately screw over Ricciardo in favour of Verstappen. They may have done it to Mark Webber in the past, but Webber wasn't a Red Bull junior driver. Ricciardo is.

Now that we are out of the heat of the moment, the above is essentially my opinion. Yes he won but let's not pretend it was a particularly special performance on this occasion. If he'd been ahead of Ricciardo all race or passed him on track it would be different but I will still maintain that most of the current grid of drivers could have done the same thing in the same circumstances, therefore I am not ready to declare 'golden boy' (yes this will be my name for him from now on, too many careers have been set back in order to benefit him for me not to) just yet, not till he achieves one by actually having to fight for it on track. I still think Ricciardo will maintain the edge across the rest of the season.

[DonTirri]

You know. It ABSOLUTELY SICKENS me that we're here once again. It seems like whenever the "popular" Red Bull driver loses to his teammate, this forum, the one I thought was free of the Autosportish bias-rubbish, devolves into conspiracies and pulls out the tar and feathers.

Max drove a fantastic race. Ricciardo had a shot, but he couldn't pass Vettel. Judging by the speed they were closing on the leading pair DESPITE FIGHTING EACH OTHER suggests that had Ricciardo managed to pass Vettel he could've seriously challenged both Kimi and Max.

He didn't. Thus, the strategy failed on his own lack of passing ability.

Deal with it.

Also, Hamilton is an idiot and I've said it for years and years.

[Ataxia]

You know. It ABSOLUTELY SICKENS me that we're here once again. It seems like whenever the "popular" Red Bull driver loses to his teammate, this forum, the one I thought was free of the Autosportish bias-rubbish, devolves into conspiracies and pulls out the tar and feathers.

I'm with you here. I don't see too much difference to other forums, we're just the different side of the same coin. I was over the moon with the result, but the moaning has been a complete buzz-kill. Thanks, buzz-killers.

As I said earlier, we can go back to Mercedes dominance if you guys would prefer...

[CoopsII]

You know. It ABSOLUTELY SICKENS me that we're here once again discussing the Eurovision song contest.

For once we agree.

Also, that whole Red Bull-engineering-the-win-for-Verstappen-so-f**k-you-Ricciardo? Nah.

[Miguel98]

In other things...

We must start considering how Lewis Hamilton is reacting to this start of the season. Compared to 2014, this is much worse... and we know that mid-year, he was starting to act like his 2011 himself.

Now with this, will Mercedes start controlling everything he says/do, to avoid that shite gets stirred up inside Mercedes? Because, right now, I believe that Lewis is reaching his "breaking point", and he will start doing very stupid crap inside and off track... ala 2011.

[yannicksamlad]

^^ It should be noted that not only are many fans biased, incidents are often judged based on the outcome (both by stewards and fans). The most desperate divebombs are considered the most impressive overtakes if the driver ahead decides to give up the position. If they shut the door, the would-be overtaker hits them and gets a penalty. Often this depends on who's ahead...

I completely agree...I am not always that impressed by the move that makes the other driver have to choose whether to give up the position or have a collision . If a driver decides to avoid contact by taking avoiding action when they are still ahead and could take the corner but can see the car behind is relying on them to get out the way and slow down and as a result the driver ahead loses a place ; this means the overtake was perhaps not all that impressive. Brave, maybe, but not impressive

[mario]

However, I refuse to believe that Red Bull would be malicious enough to deliberately screw over Ricciardo in favour of Verstappen.

It bugs (edit, hyperbolic wording) me to read around (here and other places) and see people suggesting something as silly as that. Yes, we're likely all very aware of such things happening before, but honestly, what would the point be if Red Bull really did fix the result?

I can see why some might be cynical enough to accuse Red Bull of wanting to see Verstappen win the event given that Max is taking part in a demonstration run around Zandvoort at the very beginning of June. Max's victory in the Spanish GP seems to have turned the event into the hottest ticket in town right now, so I could understand why some would be cynical enough to suspect that Red Bull engineered a victory for Verstappen to draw attention to him, and thereby themselves, at a time when it would be particularly convenient for their advertising campaign.

[CoopsII]

I can see why some might be cynical enough to accuse Red Bull of wanting to see Verstappen win the event given that Max is taking part in a demonstration run around Zandvoort at the very beginning of June. Max's victory in the Spanish GP seems to have turned the event into the hottest ticket in town right now, so I could understand why some would be cynical enough to suspect that Red Bull engineered a victory for Verstappen to draw attention to him, and thereby themselves, at a time when it would be particularly convenient for their advertising campaign.

There's a lot of understanding there Mario, something we could all use a bit more of, but do YOU believe in the accusations of Red Bulls cynicism?

[girry]

I for one think Ricciardo was on what would have been the best strategy - if not for Vettel who was driving at a maximally inconvinient speed from Ricciardo's viewpoint: just not fast enough to catch the leaders, just not slow enough to allow Ricciardo to pass him. Had Vettel been mere tenths a lap slower (or faster), Ricciardo (and Vettel) would certainly have had a shot at passing Kimi and Max - and I believe in that scenario he would have succeeded, which would in turn have woken up the conspiracy theorists from the Max (and Kimi) side of things..

Sometimes fans should just accept that their driver gets the worse strategy, you cannot be fair to both drivers all the time when wins are at stake.

[WeirdKerr]

OK here is my take on it, but first I want to go way back to a race nearly 2 decades ago when a certain team blatantly orchestrated a race win for one of their drivers over their other driver who I was, at that time a fan of and I was seriously bathplugged off at the time so ive gone through the feelings those of you who are believing Daniel Ricciardo was deliberately hampered by the team to give the win to Verstappen, which I believe was not the case because Ferrari's strategy hampered Ric more that the red bull strategy did....

[novitopoli]

Ricciardo would have probably reached Max and Kimi (and eventually won?), had he been able to pass Vettel. Enough said.

[Izzyeviel]

OK here is my take on it, but first I want to go way back to a race nearly 2 decades ago when a certain team blatantly orchestrated a race win for one of their drivers over their other driver who I was, at that time a fan of and I was seriously bathplugged off at the time so ive gone through the feelings those of you who are believing Daniel Ricciardo was deliberately hampered by the team to give the win to Verstappen, which I believe was not the case because Ferrari's strategy hampered Ric more that the red bull strategy did....

The whole Senna/Burger thing at Suzuka still bugs you eh?

[WeirdKerr]

OK here is my take on it, but first I want to go way back to a race nearly 2 decades ago when a certain team blatantly orchestrated a race win for one of their drivers over their other driver who I was, at that time a fan of and I was seriously bathplugged off at the time so ive gone through the feelings those of you who are believing Daniel Ricciardo was deliberately hampered by the team to give the win to Verstappen, which I believe was not the case because Ferrari's strategy hampered Ric more that the red bull strategy did....

The whole Senna/Burger thing at Suzuka still bugs you eh?

No.... I wasn't reffering to that race but it was that team

[DanielPT]

Now, I don't make it a secret that I do not like Max Verstappen one single bit, and a popular maiden victory won't change that. I still maintain that he was massively helped by the Mercedes incident and strategies for Ricciardo and Vettel that, in hindsight, turned out pretty badly. All he had to do was use his car's superior traction to keep Räikkönen behind (who had tyres just as old as Verstappen's, by the way), and to his credit, he did that job perfectly.

This.

Although I will add, for all those who think otherwise, that there is one piece of evidence you can extract from the race that proves Red Bull is not guilty of what people accuse them of (And I seriously dislike Red Bull as you know): Vettel's race.

There is no way in hell that Ferrari could have also "screwed" Vettel to favor Raikkonen. Vettel followed the same strategy as Ricciardo up until Ferrari realized overtaking would be difficult (See Verstappen and Raikkonen) and decided to do that early undercut (they still hesitated, remember?), playing on the safe side on tyres, giving a better shot to Vettel going to the end than those ahead and also at the same time giving him the chance to undercut Ricciardo and fresher tyres than those ahead in case they couldn't make it.

In reality, the 3 stopper was the optimal one and this is a classic case of covering what the other do while at the same time splitting strategies between drivers in order to cover all cases. If Verstappen had been in Ricciardo's strategy they would have given Ferrari a 1-2 and likewise if Ferrari had both on 3 stoppers and no undercuts they would've ended up 3rd and 4th. Besides Haryanto had just managed to do 21 laps on mediums and the MRT is known for being hard on tyres, so it was perfectly possible to go to the end.

Having said all this, I cannot stop feeling surprised about how the teams still go with three stoppers and overtaking needed strategies knowing full well that this is hard to achieve in Catalunya. Even for a bloke like Ricciardo, though he almost did it anyway

[mario]

I can see why some might be cynical enough to accuse Red Bull of wanting to see Verstappen win the event given that Max is taking part in a demonstration run around Zandvoort at the very beginning of June. Max's victory in the Spanish GP seems to have turned the event into the hottest ticket in town right now, so I could understand why some would be cynical enough to suspect that Red Bull engineered a victory for Verstappen to draw attention to him, and thereby themselves, at a time when it would be particularly convenient for their advertising campaign.

There's a lot of understanding there Mario, something we could all use a bit more of, but do YOU believe in the accusations of Red Bulls cynicism?

It is a fair question to ask - I would say that, on balance, I would be more inclined to agree with DanielPT that Ricciardo effectively came unstuck because the team decided to split their strategies and their drivers in order to try and maximise their chances, with Ricciardo's strategy proving to be the worse choice.

On paper, the three stop race was predicted to be slightly quicker, but it had the major disadvantage that it did rely on the trailing driver being able to pass the leading driver. For Ferrari, it was perhaps a risk worth taking given that they knew they had a slight straight line speed advantage over Red Bull - the inverse situation, though, was less logical though given that Red Bull had a disadvantage on the straights and you would need a far larger performance advantage than Ricciardo had from his fresher tyres (the time delta needs to be in the order of 2-2.5s per lap for a high chance of a successful overtake, and Ricciardo only seemed to have an advantage of about 1-1.5s).

Given that Ricciardo is known for aggressive passing moves, it stands to reason that the team might be inclined to gamble on such a strategy - however, it was a decision that put a lot of pressure on a driver to make a pass despite carrying a notable disadvantage in the one area where it might be possible to attempt to make a passing move stick, and therefore one that does seem, from the outside at least, to be a rather poor decision to have made.