Team radio clampdown?

Fetzie · Post by **Fetzie** » 11 Sep 2014, 21:18

So they'll just come up with a load of code phrases, like they did when team orders were banned. Or we'll be seeing entire novels being written on lap boards.

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 11 Sep 2014, 22:07

Why not do a best of both worlds? Ban team radios, but instead the FIA radio drivers of dangerous scenarios, safety cars etc

I am in favour of banning team radios though - hearing "save fuel, save tyres, your not racing him" especially within the first 10 laps or so is rather grating and it feels like drivers are being told what to do instead of figuring things out for themselves. As for stops, surely drivers could press a button if/when they want to pit to warn their teams?

SgtPepper · Post by **SgtPepper** » 11 Sep 2014, 23:50

The enforcement of the article still leaves the way open for teams to advise drivers on pitstop strategies

So what's to stop the pitwall simply saying 'at this current rate we'll have to shift you to a two stop' instead of 'you're burning your tyres out.' I appreciate the intention behind it, but the rule seems flawed. And if drivers are going to be having to focus even more on their steerings wheels, when the amount they have to already is frankly ridiculous, it also strikes me as potentially dangerous as well.

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 12 Sep 2014, 00:20

Fetzie wrote:So they'll just come up with a load of code phrases, like they did when team orders were banned. Or we'll be seeing entire novels being written on lap boards.

Huge electronic lap boards are coming. Count on it.

Rusujuur · Post by **Rusujuur** » 12 Sep 2014, 01:42

Well, as I see it they banned two way telemetry back in the day to stop setup changes and other complicated gimmicks but now with all the knobs and switches the driver can do it but only if instructed from the pits. With the new engine rules I have a feeling that FIA and some others think this has gone too far. I don't really remember having so much technical chatter before although it has been there for some time now.

Now the driver does need to know a few things - his own lap times, gaps and maybe a way to see what others around him are lapping, but not a grand strategic view. The push now and hammer time things should be figured out by te driver. From a technical point of view the driver should probably know fuel consumption rate, both current and average + projected fuel left. I'm not sure how well the teams can physically measure tyre wear but if they can measure it the driver should be aware of that, but not via pits but via data.

One solution would be to disable all communication from the team and give that right to FIA for warnings on safety, any penalties etc. the driver can also say anything he really wants, like pit strategy things and warnings of something odd in the car or wanting more wing or something but the team can respond only through the FIA guy.

watka · Post by **watka** » 12 Sep 2014, 12:19

I'm just wondering how Max Verstappen is going to get on with all of this. The other drivers should be fine but I'm sure Max will want all the help he can get finding his way around an F1 car.

Sublime_FA11C · Post by **Sublime_FA11C** » 12 Sep 2014, 12:45

Even as i am in agreement with the motives behind the changes, i have to ask why make the changes so suddenly and violently?

There was no warning to the fans, no consideration, just a quick "We're thinking of doing this" and two days later, it is now law. Why drive the rule change with a sledge hammer? And why this year when Vettel isn't winning everything in sight, and we instead have a close title fight? And why is the technical regulation so vague? There's an unexpected new rule that teams are struggleing to understand, let alone fans.

What i kinda hope for now, is that a few drivers find an edge on their competition and improve. Most drivers already hate "management" aspects of a GP with a passion and some will struggle less than others without pit assistance. Who knows, maybe that will justify the rule change in fan's minds, but it's still an unbelivably clumsy way of introducing changes. As usual...

As for the previously mentioned fuel gauge, i didn't necessarily mean a "needle" type. There's got to be room on the LCD displays to acomodate a fuel gauge on one of the many pages of data, and if technology allows (i belive it does) info such as real-time fuel usage could be displayed as well. So no need to inform the driver they're using too much, they can check it out themselves and see how much they can save by backing off or lifting and coasting or adjusting the engine power or turbo settings. They already tweak these knobs while driving and fuel flow sensors are already present on the car so the data can be made available to the driver, and they can obviously feel how the tyres are doing. There's no need for engineers, but crucially also no assistance from them.

Is this a better show? More of a driver's effort rather than an engineer effort? Or some welcome controversy to divert some attention away from the Russian GP controversy? This, the leaked calendar and Di Montezemolo's exit should be enough to keep fans talking. About things that aren't the Russian GP. Personally, i dont want controversy of that kind nor politics in F1... but, it's just weird. Why now, why this way?

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 12 Sep 2014, 13:58

I think team radio has helped a lot in making motorsports safer. For example, in IndyCar, drivers have spotters who talk to them about what's happening besides their car in angles that they cannot view by themselves from the cockpit. Also, team radio is important, in case of an accident somewhere out on the track, to warn uninvolved drivers of a blocked track.
And it is important in this day and age to help a driver get the fuel settings, engine mappings, and other such stuff right, especially if the strategy is changed mid-race. F1 is a team sport for a reason. I highly doubt abolishing team radio would make for a better viewing experience. I feel team radio should not be messed with at all by the regulatory body. In fact, teams should have the right to block the TV coverage from getting access to their radio communication.
Instead, the TV stations should provide their viewers with better commentators who should give more insight into different strategic possibilities of the drivers on track during a race. German TV station RTL's broadcasts are especially poor on that. Limiting free speech on the team radio is not going to fix anything but is a breach of human rights even.

Post by **Londoner** » 12 Sep 2014, 14:50

Yannick wrote:Limiting free speech on the team radio is not going to fix anything but is a breach of human rights even.

With all due respect, that's a ridiculous exaggeration.

Post by **Ataxia** » 12 Sep 2014, 21:06

Essentially, we get fewer comical soundbites and interesting pieces of information. The Buggles were wrong; the FIA killed the radio star(s)...

Post by **Londoner** » 15 Sep 2014, 15:24

Well, here's the list of what's allowed and what isn't. Pit boards are included in this ruling as well.

You know the teams will either find a way around it, or just outright ignore it and claim force majure or something...

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 15 Sep 2014, 15:48

East Londoner wrote:Well, here's the list of what's allowed and what isn't. Pit boards are included in this ruling as well.

You know the teams will either find a way around it, or just outright ignore it and claim force majure or something...

The day in which FIA will also regulate the type, dimensions and linen of undies a driver can wear is now closer. Much closer.

FMecha · Post by **FMecha** » 15 Sep 2014, 15:53

East Londoner wrote:Well, here's the list of what's allowed and what isn't. Pit boards are included in this ruling as well.

You know the teams will either find a way around it, or just outright ignore it and claim force majure or something...

Coded messages are banned, too, to prevent teams from working around the rules, I assume?

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 15 Sep 2014, 16:37

DanielPT wrote:
East Londoner wrote:Well, here's the list of what's allowed and what isn't. Pit boards are included in this ruling as well.

You know the teams will either find a way around it, or just outright ignore it and claim force majure or something...

The day in which FIA will also regulate the type, dimensions and linen of undies a driver can wear is now closer. Much closer.

Ermmm, that is already kinda in place. At least, if it is for WRC drivers, then I imagine that it is for F1 drivers too.

From Juho Hanninen's Wikipedia page:

In his debut in a World Rally Car in Finland, Hänninen was excluded for not wearing the correct fireproof underwear.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 15 Sep 2014, 17:30

dr-baker wrote:
DanielPT wrote:The day in which FIA will also regulate the type, dimensions and linen of undies a driver can wear is now closer. Much closer.

Ermmm, that is already kinda in place. At least, if it is for WRC drivers, then I imagine that it is for F1 drivers too.

From Juho Hanninen's Wikipedia page:

In his debut in a World Rally Car in Finland, Hänninen was excluded for not wearing the correct fireproof underwear.

A quick search only told me that it should be fireproof. I believe that if they are briefs, boxers, boxers briefs or even bikinis (yes you read that right. They exist as men undergarments!) leaves too much choice available. That needs to be clamped down too. And don't get me started on the array of available fabrics...

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 15 Sep 2014, 17:39

DanielPT wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
DanielPT wrote:The day in which FIA will also regulate the type, dimensions and linen of undies a driver can wear is now closer. Much closer.

Ermmm, that is already kinda in place. At least, if it is for WRC drivers, then I imagine that it is for F1 drivers too.

From Juho Hanninen's Wikipedia page:

In his debut in a World Rally Car in Finland, Hänninen was excluded for not wearing the correct fireproof underwear.

A quick search only told me that it should be fireproof. I believe that if they are briefs, boxers, boxers briefs or even bikinis (yes you read that right. They exist as men undergarments!) leaves too much choice available. That needs to be clamped down too. And don't get me started on the array of available fabrics...

Ahh, the regulations are a lot freer than I imagined then. Hmm, Nigel Mansell in a bikini - ewww. Susie Wolff, Katherine Legge, Simona de Silvestro, on the other hand...

Barbazza · Post by **Barbazza** » 15 Sep 2014, 18:08

DanielPT wrote:The day in which FIA will also regulate the type, dimensions and linen of undies a driver can wear is now closer. Much closer.

Easy to get round, that.

"BOX!(er) BOX! (er) BOX! (er)"

"How's the brake balance Jenson?" "Why....front is OK, rear needs 2 turns."

GwilymJJames · Post by **GwilymJJames** » 15 Sep 2014, 18:38

Won't be enforced. Remember how tough the FIA got on the team orders ban? I remember how tough the FIA got on the team orders ban.

solarcold · Post by **solarcold** » 16 Sep 2014, 06:31

Now that cryptography is banned, there's still such awesome thing as steganography.

Nico, if you ask me something like "is my fuel ok" or "should I race him" and I answer "I CAN'T TELL YOU THAT", that would mean YES, but if I answer "I SHOULD NOT TELL YOU THAT" - that means NO.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 16 Sep 2014, 06:54

East Londoner wrote:
Yannick wrote:Limiting free speech on the team radio is not going to fix anything but is a breach of human rights even.

With all due respect, that's a ridiculous exaggeration.

It's about time these F1 drivers learned what it would be like to race in North Korea!

AustralianStig · Post by **AustralianStig** » 16 Sep 2014, 06:55

I'm kinda disappointed they've included pit boards on this. I was looking forward to seeing how much technical data they could squeeze onto the board!

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 16 Sep 2014, 07:12

I'm sure I sound like a moaning old twat (once again) but isn't all this a solution to a non-existent problem yet again?

BigG80 · Post by **BigG80** » 16 Sep 2014, 08:41

Ah but if the FIA is perceived to be doing something to spice up the show then they can all rest easy!

I think it might have a minor impact on a few cars but that is about it. I'm looking forward to it.

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 16 Sep 2014, 09:31

People need to look in the mirror. There has been bitching about tyre/fuel saving message in the radio all season long.

FIA is blamed for not listening to the fans. Then they listen and get hated for it. Get a grip people and STOP bathplug BITCHING AND MOANING FFS

Also. Be careful what you wish for. you just might get it.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 16 Sep 2014, 09:45

DonTirri wrote:People need to look in the mirror. There has been bitching about tyre/fuel saving message in the radio all season long.

I think people have been annoyed about the fact they need to do it to finish races. I don't recall much comment regarding us having to actually listen to them being told.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 16 Sep 2014, 10:51

East Londoner wrote:
Yannick wrote:Limiting free speech on the team radio is not going to fix anything but is a breach of human rights even.

With all due respect, that's a ridiculous exaggeration.

It is an exaggeration indeed. Yet it shows that teams could successfully sue the FIA to revoke the ban on team radio communicastion. In the political world of F1, stranger things have happened even.

I guess I should have just shut up and said that I'm not a fan of what's currently happening in the sport ... pay drivers and development drivers who are not ready yet, and rules like this one. However, the current engine and energy recovery formula is kind of cool.

andrew2209 · Post by **andrew2209** » 16 Sep 2014, 15:45

A different theory to the ban I thought of-could it be in response to the allegations of Rosberg being asked to make a mistake. We obviously don't recieve all of the radio transmissions the teams make, but maybe the FIA found something suspicious.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 18 Sep 2014, 10:57

Ecclestone hints at telemetry limits in Formula 1 after radio ban

When asked about live telemetry...

Bernie Ecclestone wrote:Yes. We have a regulation in force that drivers must drive the car unaided. They have been aided - and still are. Even if we get rid of this ship to shore, as I call it, there are still a lot of aids that they should not have. There is too much aiding technology in the cars today, which is why we will be pushing forward to ban everything that came up after 1950.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 18 Sep 2014, 13:10

"We will be pushing forward to ban everything that came up after 1950"

- Bernie Ecclestone, September 2014

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 18 Sep 2014, 13:45

shinji wrote:"We will be pushing forward to ban everything that came up after 1950"

- Bernie Ecclestone, September 2014

Just to clarify, I actually added that part. I thought it would be an easy to recognise joke/satire but I am now doubting it. In my defense, the real Bernie doesn't think too far off although he would refrain from saying such things on the record. Probably.

Post by **Londoner** » 18 Sep 2014, 14:07

The FIA are still dithering over what's banned and what isn't :roll:

Julien · Post by **Julien** » 18 Sep 2014, 21:23

I think the idea is great. In fact, I would even ban midrace modifications in the cor setup except of wing adjustments (in the pits), brake balance and differential setups.
However, this change shouldn't be implemented before 2015 because it would too heavily influence the outcome of the championship. I wouldn't even dare to guess who would benefit form it the most...

LionZoo · Post by **LionZoo** » 18 Sep 2014, 21:37

Yannick wrote:
East Londoner wrote:
Yannick wrote:Limiting free speech on the team radio is not going to fix anything but is a breach of human rights even.

With all due respect, that's a ridiculous exaggeration.

It is an exaggeration indeed. Yet it shows that teams could successfully sue the FIA to revoke the ban on team radio communicastion. In the political world of F1, stranger things have happened even.

I guess I should have just shut up and said that I'm not a fan of what's currently happening in the sport ... pay drivers and development drivers who are not ready yet, and rules like this one. However, the current engine and energy recovery formula is kind of cool.

In fact, in most Western style governments, freedom of speech and the right to be free from interference with the speech only applies to government entities. Governments cannot unreasonably interfere with your rights of free speech, but private organizations are free to do so. Conflation between the two is very common among the general public though. However, the truth is you simply won't be able to successfully sue the FIA on free speech grounds.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 19 Sep 2014, 09:28

Total radio clampdown is delayed until 2015 due to car safety but the ban on driver performance aiding is still immediate.

As per usual, FIA incompetence is boundless...

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 19 Sep 2014, 10:03

DanielPT wrote:Total radio clampdown is delayed until 2015 due to car safety but the ban on driver performance aiding is still immediate.

As per usual, FIA incompetence is boundless...

More proof, if proof were even needed, that changes like these should be decided in the off-season and then implemented properly as the season commences (life threatening safety issues notwithstanding, obv.)

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 19 Sep 2014, 11:31

DanielPT wrote:Total radio clampdown is delayed until 2015 due to car safety but the ban on driver performance aiding is still immediate.

As per usual, FIA incompetence is boundless...

RotR in bound for the FIA. :lol:

Post by **Miguel98** » 19 Sep 2014, 19:18

DanielPT wrote:Total radio clampdown is delayed until 2015 due to car safety but the ban on driver performance aiding is still immediate.

As per usual, FIA incompetence is boundless...

FIA

It was more than obvious when Hamilton and Rosberg we're communicating with team, asking for information in FP1: they got warnings, but nothing more.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 19 Sep 2014, 21:02

DanielPT wrote:
shinji wrote:"We will be pushing forward to ban everything that came up after 1950"

- Bernie Ecclestone, September 2014

Just to clarify, I actually added that part. I thought it would be an easy to recognise joke/satire but I am now doubting it. In my defense, the real Bernie doesn't think too far off although he would refrain from saying such things on the record. Probably.

mrfakeboullier · Post by **mrfakeboullier** » 20 Sep 2014, 20:51

I've just read one mister Bathplug Charles Ecclestone claims to be behind this. This makes me angry for a number of reasons:
1) Said Mr Ecclestone is the COMMERCIAL RIGHTS HOLDER, and indeed the Concorde agreement (which to be fair is currently non existent) outlines the FIA as the SOLE REGULATIRY AUTHORITY (quote unquote). Also, Bernie is about as in touch as all the 70's presenters who aren't paedophiles, although it was nice to almost have live tweeting from @F1 on twitter (the less said about the calendar the better) and in an alarming cooincidence the makers of F1 2014 seem to have made a game catering for the hardcore F1 youtubers not people who said youtubers call 'idiots' because they use ABS on a keyboard.
2) Out of all the 2015 regs, the one that has been almost universally approved by fans has been scrapped (budget cap)
3) As someone who would like a career as a race engineer in F1 (and indeed have just applied to Bloodhound SSC for work experience) I feel as if a route into the sport I love is being shut off
4) if Bernie wanted to make the sport more popular then I have a list if three things he should try to scrap before Radio:
1) Double Points
2) Standing restarts
3) not having a budget cap

Post by **mario** » 20 Sep 2014, 21:16

mrfakeboullier wrote:I've just read one mister Bathplug Charles Ecclestone claims to be behind this. This makes me angry for a number of reasons:
1) Said Mr Ecclestone is the COMMERCIAL RIGHTS HOLDER, and indeed the Concorde agreement (which to be fair is currently non existent) outlines the FIA as the SOLE REGULATIRY AUTHORITY (quote unquote). Also, Bernie is about as in touch as all the 70's presenters who aren't paedophiles, although it was nice to almost have live tweeting from @F1 on twitter (the less said about the calendar the better) and in an alarming cooincidence the makers of F1 2014 seem to have made a game catering for the hardcore F1 youtubers not people who said youtubers call 'idiots' because they use ABS on a keyboard.
2) Out of all the 2015 regs, the one that has been almost universally approved by fans has been scrapped (budget cap)
3) As someone who would like a career as a race engineer in F1 (and indeed have just applied to Bloodhound SSC for work experience) I feel as if a route into the sport I love is being shut off
4) if Bernie wanted to make the sport more popular then I have a list if three things he should try to scrap before Radio:
1) Double Points
2) Standing restarts
3) not having a budget cap

There were some reports from Singapore that suggested FOM might be thinking of backtracking on the double points proposal. The BBC are quoting Bernie as saying this when questioned about the double points proposal:

'I wanted it (double points) to be for the last three races. Then people would believe it still possible somebody else could win, but everyone said I was mad, so we won't do it. As for keeping it for the last race, I don't know. Probably not. We can't yet see whether it has worked, it depends.'

Of course, it's typically Bernie in the way that he leaves sufficient ambiguity to move in both directions afterwards, but it does suggest that FOM are perhaps aware that the double points proposal is potentially damaging the brand value of F1 due to its unpopularity and the negative headlines it has resulted in.

As for the other options, well, at the moment there doesn't seem to be any signs that the standing restarts will be scrapped just yet - it'll probably be the case that, if we see a few fan favourites taken out on a restart in a high profile manner, the FIA will be put under pressure to revert back to the old safety car rules.

As for the budget car, to a certain extent FOM is not the only party to blame - the larger teams themselves are, because of their entrenched advantages from their grater wealth, helping to block regulations that could lead to budget caps (for example, Ferrari having vetoed certain cost cutting regulations relating to engines a few years ago and Red Bull using their rights, as well as those of Toro Rosso, to vote down the more wide reaching attempts to restrict chassis and aero development).

Just look at McLaren's recent change in policy - whilst Whitmarsh was more supportive of the smaller teams and gave cautious support to modest cost cutting measures as head of FOTA, one of the very first things that Ron Dennis announced when he returned was that he didn't care about reigning in spending and was quite happy to see the smaller teams collapse as a result. Most of the wealthier teams are happy for the status quo to continue and, so long as they are the only ones with voting rights on the Strategy Group, there is unlikely to be much change unless one of them finally starts feeling the pinch.
In fact, Bernie did make a mischievous comment suggesting that he was in favour of budget capping and that it was the bigger teams that were blocking the proposals - of course, the fact that this might give Bernie an opportunity to cut the teams take of the TV rights was a subtext that many picked up on...