Ponderbox

[good_Ralf]

On the F1Rejects main page there is currently a picture of Rosberg in a football outfit and the caption reads "Germans to become the 2014 world champions?". Thinking about that, I remember 2010 where Spain won the World Cup and Alonso towards the end of the year could have been WC until Abu Dhabi when he lost out. In 2006, Italy won the World Cup and Ferrari towards the end looked good for at least one title, but then lost out as well. Brazil won in 2002 and Rubens Barrichello was runner-up at the end. If irony/symbolism continues like this and Germany wins tomorrow, could Rosberg lose the title in the final round(s)? BTW I do support Rosberg in his quest for the championship this year as well as Hamilton.

[Klon]

On the F1Rejects main page there is currently a picture of Rosberg in a football outfit and the caption reads "Germans to become the 2014 world champions?". Thinking about that, I remember 2010 where Spain won the World Cup and Alonso towards the end of the year could have been WC until Abu Dhabi when he lost out. In 2006, Italy won the World Cup and Ferrari towards the end looked good for at least one title, but then lost out as well. Brazil won in 2002 and Rubens Barrichello was runner-up at the end. If irony/symbolism continues like this and Germany wins tomorrow, could Rosberg lose the title in the final round(s)? BTW I do support Rosberg in his quest for the championship this year as well as Hamilton.

Hehehe, nice observation. Could happen. Although the past doesn't speak in favour of this temporary streak, since the only time it happened outside of those years was 1978 maybe? Although was Carlos Reutemann really in contention that year? Then again, if you count Barrichello, 1966 is another occurance since Englishman Surtees was second to Sir Jack Brabham, who romped away with the title.

[mario]

On the F1Rejects main page there is currently a picture of Rosberg in a football outfit and the caption reads "Germans to become the 2014 world champions?". Thinking about that, I remember 2010 where Spain won the World Cup and Alonso towards the end of the year could have been WC until Abu Dhabi when he lost out. In 2006, Italy won the World Cup and Ferrari towards the end looked good for at least one title, but then lost out as well. Brazil won in 2002 and Rubens Barrichello was runner-up at the end. If irony/symbolism continues like this and Germany wins tomorrow, could Rosberg lose the title in the final round(s)? BTW I do support Rosberg in his quest for the championship this year as well as Hamilton.

Hehehe, nice observation. Could happen. Although the past doesn't speak in favour of this temporary streak, since the only time it happened outside of those years was 1978 maybe? Although was Carlos Reutemann really in contention that year? Then again, if you count Barrichello, 1966 is another occurance since Englishman Surtees was second to Sir Jack Brabham, who romped away with the title.

Well, having had the upper hand in the past few races, Rosberg is now finding himself in a more difficult situation - instead of, at worst, losing 7 points to Hamilton in the British GP (in retrospect, if Hamilton could, as seemed quite likely, have made it to the end on a one stop strategy, the additional pit stop required for Rosberg would probably have put him in 2nd place), his retirement has given Hamilton a 25 point boost and a morale boost as well.

Furthermore, there is an interesting question as to which of the two Mercedes drivers might adapt more quickly to the car now the FRIC system is being removed. Out of the two drivers, Rosberg might be the driver who is hurt slightly in the short term more given that Hamilton has tended to be slightly ill at ease with the Mercedes FRIC system (or at least that was the case in 2013), whereas Rosberg, having driven a FRIC equipped car for longer (since at least 2012) and therefore might adapt a little slower to a more conventional set up (although you suspect that both drivers will be slightly hurt by the decision).

[Jocke1]

From now on, I want you all to call me Loretta.

[shinji]

From now on, I want you all to call me Loretta.

Get back home Loretta.

[MorbidelliObese]

What other rock-paper-scissors driver sets are there besides Hill-Frentzen-Villeneuve?

A few months ago on here people identified the Raikkonen/Massa/Fisichella/Alonso quartet and also the M Schumi/Barrichello/Irvine/Herbert quartet.

Off the top of my head Alonso and Schumacher beat all the other 3 teammates though (well, save for a turnaround in the Ferrari drivers' 2014 fortunes), I thought Barrichello/Irvine/Herbert might work on their own but even in 1999 when Herbert won a race, Rubens beat him in points (and was generally the quicker driver). I did find a four-driver infinite loop (not strictly a rock-paper-scissors type thing though) going back to the 1970s though:

Peterson beats Lauda (1972)
Lauda beats Reutemann (1977)
Reutemann beats Andretti (1979)
Andretti beats Peterson (1978)

EDIT: On second thought, Raikkonen/Massa/Fisichella work on their own:

Fisichella beats Massa (2004)
Massa beats Raikkonen (2007-09 combined, not including Raikkonen's points after Massa's injury)
Raikkonen beats Fisichella (2009)

[Bleu]

My point in those four pictures are the numbers. It seemed that early in the season each Williams driver had an own font for their race number. However, this is not the case anymore at Hockenheim. Did the FIA order Williams to change the number font?

I think every other team has had similar numbers for both drivers throughout the season. However, drivers have some special numbers in their helmets and seem to have own graphics when the starting grid is presented at the FOM feed.

[wsrgo]

Should pit windows come back to F1? Today's race made me think of this..the Ericsson incident brought out the safety car the timing was rather unfair for the top four drivers, whilst it handed an undeserved advantage to Ricciardo and the rest. Pit windows were a problem during the refueling era, I admit, but in the current tyre scenario, you will anyway have all drivers coming in as early as possible anyway. Why not force all drivers to pit on the same lap? The first full lap under Bernd Maylander should end in the opening of the pitlane window so that all who want to pit can come in.

[Londoner]

Should pit windows come back to F1? Today's race made me think of this..the Ericsson incident brought out the safety car the timing was rather unfair for the top four drivers, whilst it handed an undeserved advantage to Ricciardo and the rest. Pit windows were a problem during the refueling era, I admit, but in the current tyre scenario, you will anyway have all drivers coming in as early as possible anyway. Why not force all drivers to pit on the same lap? The first full lap under Bernd Maylander should end in the opening of the pitlane window so that all who want to pit can come in.

Well, maybe the leaders should have driven a bit more slowly so when the SC came out, they would have been able to pit straight away...

[Meatwad]

Should pit windows come back to F1? Today's race made me think of this..the Ericsson incident brought out the safety car the timing was rather unfair for the top four drivers, whilst it handed an undeserved advantage to Ricciardo and the rest. Pit windows were a problem during the refueling era, I admit, but in the current tyre scenario, you will anyway have all drivers coming in as early as possible anyway. Why not force all drivers to pit on the same lap? The first full lap under Bernd Maylander should end in the opening of the pitlane window so that all who want to pit can come in.

I completely disagree. This would only make a race less interesting due to every team having a similar strategy. The current rules ended up improving the show as Bernie says, otherwise we would have seen Rosberg take a dominant win with most drivers finishing where expected.

I also like that they have no mandatory pit stops, as it means one could try to finish the race without pitting if there was a red flag at the right time.

[Salamander]

Should pit windows come back to F1? Today's race made me think of this..the Ericsson incident brought out the safety car the timing was rather unfair for the top four drivers, whilst it handed an undeserved advantage to Ricciardo and the rest. Pit windows were a problem during the refueling era, I admit, but in the current tyre scenario, you will anyway have all drivers coming in as early as possible anyway. Why not force all drivers to pit on the same lap? The first full lap under Bernd Maylander should end in the opening of the pitlane window so that all who want to pit can come in.

Nahhhhhhhh.


If anything, I would say the only change that should be made is to close the pits when the safety car comes out, as they do in America. But even then, since teammates share a pit box, that would force everyone to double stack, and could lead to even bigger problems having 22 cars pit at the same time. So if that's unfeasible, then it's best to leave it as it is.

[mario]

Should pit windows come back to F1? Today's race made me think of this..the Ericsson incident brought out the safety car the timing was rather unfair for the top four drivers, whilst it handed an undeserved advantage to Ricciardo and the rest. Pit windows were a problem during the refueling era, I admit, but in the current tyre scenario, you will anyway have all drivers coming in as early as possible anyway. Why not force all drivers to pit on the same lap? The first full lap under Bernd Maylander should end in the opening of the pitlane window so that all who want to pit can come in.

Nahhhhhhhh.


If anything, I would say the only change that should be made is to close the pits when the safety car comes out, as they do in America. But even then, since teammates share a pit box, that would force everyone to double stack, and could lead to even bigger problems having 22 cars pit at the same time. So if that's unfeasible, then it's best to leave it as it is.

I'd have to agree that increasing the density of the cars in the pit lane by encouraging all of the drivers to pit simultaneously greatly increases the risk of a pit lane accident, particularly if you had an accident at an older venue where the pits tend to be narrower and double stacking is much more difficult.

[Boomstick]

Ponder Ponder....

Easy way to spice up the show (in view of recent events): Change the calendar, to make more races in spring / Autumn in their respective countries to create a greater possibility of rain. It seems that the calendar has been deliberately created to ensure fine weather. Time to change that.

(for the Australians)

Imagine Melbourne in spring? (September/October) Can you imagine the random weather then?

Look at the other benefits: With the random track surface the tire makers can work on compounds and tire designs (read tread patterns) instead of boring old slicks. Its got more road relevance.

[WeirdKerr]

Ponder Ponder....

Easy way to spice up the show (in view of recent events): Change the calendar, to make more races in spring / Autumn in their respective countries to create a greater possibility of rain. It seems that the calendar has been deliberately created to ensure fine weather. Time to change that.

(for the Australians)

Imagine Melbourne in spring? (September/October) Can you imagine the random weather then?

Look at the other benefits: With the random track surface the tire makers can work on compounds and tire designs (read tread patterns) instead of boring old slicks. Its got more road relevance.

They Held the 2000 British Grand prix in April of that year... slight fiasco with the spectator parking.....

[HawkAussie]

From now on, I want you all to call me Loretta.

Go home Loretta

[Ataxia]

From now on, I want you all to call me Loretta.

Go home Loretta

Splitter!

[pasta_maldonado]

Should pit windows come back to F1? Today's race made me think of this..the Ericsson incident brought out the safety car the timing was rather unfair for the top four drivers, whilst it handed an undeserved advantage to Ricciardo and the rest. Pit windows were a problem during the refueling era, I admit, but in the current tyre scenario, you will anyway have all drivers coming in as early as possible anyway. Why not force all drivers to pit on the same lap? The first full lap under Bernd Maylander should end in the opening of the pitlane window so that all who want to pit can come in.

A wise man once said: "Success is a mixture of preparation and luck". There has always been an element of luck in motorsport, you could argue that you need to be lucky to win the world championship. Take the luck out of F1 and it starts to feel even more soulless.

[lgaquino]

I often hear commentators and drivers wishing for a return of refuelling. The argument is that it would open up strategies and spice things up...
But, I can't imagine that that would be the case. Precisely the opposite imo, as F1 teams can quickly simulate 1000x different approaches and come up with the same optimal strategy..

So the ban of refuelling is something that I absolutely want to continue. If only we could do away with the mandatory pitstops ...

[WeirdKerr]

ban strategy simulators..

[Klon]

ban strategy simulators..

Yeah, because that is totally possible.

[RAK]

I often hear commentators and drivers wishing for a return of refuelling. The argument is that it would open up strategies and spice things up...
But, I can't imagine that that would be the case. Precisely the opposite imo, as F1 teams can quickly simulate 1000x different approaches and come up with the same optimal strategy..

So the ban of refuelling is something that I absolutely want to continue. If only we could do away with the mandatory pitstops ...

I never saw what was so great about refuelling myself. I think there's significantly more skill involved in driving a car at top speed that's loaded to the brim with fuel than there is with a car that has half or a third of its fuel requirements for the race; the refuelling stage meant that the cars were in the pits for an extra five or more seconds where they were just sitting there and there were fewer consequences in terms of time for a stop which went somewhat awry. I think that limiting the stops to tyre changes is better when the cars don't need to refuel to finish the race.

[mario]

I often hear commentators and drivers wishing for a return of refuelling. The argument is that it would open up strategies and spice things up...
But, I can't imagine that that would be the case. Precisely the opposite imo, as F1 teams can quickly simulate 1000x different approaches and come up with the same optimal strategy..

So the ban of refuelling is something that I absolutely want to continue. If only we could do away with the mandatory pitstops ...

I never saw what was so great about refuelling myself. I think there's significantly more skill involved in driving a car at top speed that's loaded to the brim with fuel than there is with a car that has half or a third of its fuel requirements for the race; the refuelling stage meant that the cars were in the pits for an extra five or more seconds where they were just sitting there and there were fewer consequences in terms of time for a stop which went somewhat awry. I think that limiting the stops to tyre changes is better when the cars don't need to refuel to finish the race.

I would presume that it is tied in to the perception that the sport should be about being constantly flat out all of the time - since refuelling allows the drivers to be quicker within each stint given the reduced weight, that seems to be the driving force behind asking for refuelling to come back.

[watka]

I often hear commentators and drivers wishing for a return of refuelling. The argument is that it would open up strategies and spice things up...
But, I can't imagine that that would be the case. Precisely the opposite imo, as F1 teams can quickly simulate 1000x different approaches and come up with the same optimal strategy..

So the ban of refuelling is something that I absolutely want to continue. If only we could do away with the mandatory pitstops ...

I never saw what was so great about refuelling myself. I think there's significantly more skill involved in driving a car at top speed that's loaded to the brim with fuel than there is with a car that has half or a third of its fuel requirements for the race; the refuelling stage meant that the cars were in the pits for an extra five or more seconds where they were just sitting there and there were fewer consequences in terms of time for a stop which went somewhat awry. I think that limiting the stops to tyre changes is better when the cars don't need to refuel to finish the race.

I would presume that it is tied in to the perception that the sport should be about being constantly flat out all of the time - since refuelling allows the drivers to be quicker within each stint given the reduced weight, that seems to be the driving force behind asking for refuelling to come back.

*PUTS ON HEALTH & SAFETY HELMET*

I think the variant of have refuelling back in the sport is outweighed by the unnecessary element of danger it brings. The amount of guys who drove off with the hoses still attached to the car in the dying days of refuelling was quite high and it was a surprise no one got seriously injured.

[DonTirri]

Refueling wouldn't fix the "Lets conserve our stuff to save speed" problem. We'd just have even more of "Conserve fuel, we need to get this and this far with this stint."

Let's face it. Racing 110% from flag to flag is gone. Back when even if a component failed 2 metres after the finish line, it still had done its job, back when you had as many engines, as many gearboxes, as many *insertcomponenthere* as you wanted to use, back when you had four or five tire compounds to choose from and could mix and match within sets, thats when racing flat out from start to finish was the best way to do it.

But it was also expensive as hell. And money talked. People look at Vettel domination or Schuey domination and call it boring. Stewart dominated even worse. We had a grand total of TWO DIFFERENT TEAMS winning championships between 83 and 93. nobody could touch McLaren in 88. Nobody could touch Williams in 87. Nobody could touch Mansell in 92. We had teams popping up and dropping left right and centre between the late 80's to mid 90's.

The era of flat out racing is gone. It's time to face the fact and embrace the era of the chessmaster. And it's time to drop the nostalgia glasses. Formula One in the 80's and 90's wasn't the holy grail people claim it to be. It was even more one-sided as it is today.

... I think this might actually belong to the rantbox.

[mario]

Refueling wouldn't fix the "Lets conserve our stuff to save speed" problem. We'd just have even more of "Conserve fuel, we need to get this and this far with this stint."

Let's face it. Racing 110% from flag to flag is gone. Back when even if a component failed 2 metres after the finish line, it still had done its job, back when you had as many engines, as many gearboxes, as many *insertcomponenthere* as you wanted to use, back when you had four or five tire compounds to choose from and could mix and match within sets, thats when racing flat out from start to finish was the best way to do it.

But it was also expensive as hell. And money talked. People look at Vettel domination or Schuey domination and call it boring. Stewart dominated even worse. We had a grand total of TWO DIFFERENT TEAMS winning championships between 83 and 93. nobody could touch McLaren in 88. Nobody could touch Williams in 87. Nobody could touch Mansell in 92. We had teams popping up and dropping left right and centre between the late 80's to mid 90's.

The era of flat out racing is gone. It's time to face the fact and embrace the era of the chessmaster. And it's time to drop the nostalgia glasses. Formula One in the 80's and 90's wasn't the holy grail people claim it to be. It was even more one-sided as it is today.

... I think this might actually belong to the rantbox.

I'd argue that the closest that the sport came to completely flat out racing probably would be in the early 1990's - when the teams were using turbo engines in the 1980's, much of that era was dominated by fuel saving. Part of McLaren's advantage in 1988 came about because the Honda engine was the most fuel efficient turbo engine - if you look at the next most successful team, Ferrari, part of the reason why they could only occasionally threaten was because their engine was significantly thirstier than the Honda engine - but even McLaren had issues with fuel consumption.

Even then, there were times when a slightly more conservative approach was required, especially at certain tracks. Gary Anderson pointed out that, generally, the quickest way around Monza is to do a one stop strategy, something that has applied both before and during the refuelling era whilst he was at Jordan. However, he also pointed out that generally the drivers would have to undertake some tyre management in order for a one stop to work, particularly to prevent front tyre graining - a common problem at Monza, particularly on the left front - so even within those seasons, the drivers wouldn't always be flat out.

[watka]

Just wondering, are Vergne's career prospects being aided by Ricciardo's performance at Red Bull? It's widely assumed that he'll be moved aside to give another Red bull junior (probably Sainz Jr) a drive, but he's looking like the most "employable" Red Bull protege there's been for a while. For the first time we've been able to see how a former Toro Rosso driver can cope at Red Bull and Ricciardo is doing exceptionally well and beating Vettel. Given how closely Vergne matched up against Ricciardo at Toro Rosso, other teams for the first time have a yardstick as to how well a Toro Rosso driver might do in a top team. I still think he needs a stand out performance this season to secure a drive for next season though.

[Shizuka]

But the fragility of his car doesn't help him, sadly.

[dr-baker]

And Vergne only stands a chance if either Vettel or Ricciardo leave Red Bull. No other Toro Rosso driver has ever really done anything in F1, have they?

[girry]

Liuzzi got his fair chance, at least.

[WeirdKerr]

Will next year set a new record of 3 sons of Former F1 drivers in F1?

[FullMetalJack]

Will next year set a new record of 3 sons of Former F1 drivers in F1?

Nope. 2007, 2008 and 2009 all had three.

2007 had Rosberg, Winkelhock and Nakajima, although not at the same time.

2008 and 2009 both had Rosberg, Nakajima and Piquet.

[Londoner]

Something that we were pondering in the chat last night, is Nico Hulkenberg the second coming of Nick Heidfeld? Because apart from the odd amazing performance (Brazil 2012, Korea 2013), it sure seems that way, as Hulk is doing what Quick Nick was renowned for: being a consistent points scorer and dependable hand behind the wheel, but perhaps lacking that cutting edge that other young drivers like Bottas, Grosjean and Ricciardo have. The similarities don't stop there, as both Hulk and Heidfeld demolished the junior categories before making it to F1.

Discuss.

[Bleu]

Will next year set a new record of 3 sons of Former F1 drivers in F1?

Nope. 2007, 2008 and 2009 all had three.

2007 had Rosberg, Winkelhock and Nakajima, although not at the same time.

2008 and 2009 both had Rosberg, Nakajima and Piquet.

1993 and 1994 also had three: Hill and Fittipaldi in both years, Andretti in 1993 and Brabham in 1994.

[andrew2209]

Would Jenson Button, Kimi Raikkonen and Fernando Alonso become the first F1 drivers to race against a father and son? All 3 drove in 2001 and 2003 against Jos Verstappen

[Nessafox]

Would Jenson Button, Kimi Raikkonen and Fernando Alonso become the first F1 drivers to race against a father and son? All 3 drove in 2001 and 2003 against Jos Verstappen

Nah, i'm sure some drivers raced the Pilette family. (Graham Hill for example)

[Bleu]

Stirling Moss, Maurice Trintignant and Roy Salvadori raced against Reg and Tim Parnell.
Alain Prost, Andrea de Cesaris, Riccardo Patrese, Derek Warwick and Michele Alboreto raced against Mario and Michael Andretti.

[TomWazzleshaw]

It does make you wonder sometimes, doesn't it?

[mario]

Something that we were pondering in the chat last night, is Nico Hulkenberg the second coming of Nick Heidfeld? Because apart from the odd amazing performance (Brazil 2012, Korea 2013), it sure seems that way, as Hulk is doing what Quick Nick was renowned for: being a consistent points scorer and dependable hand behind the wheel, but perhaps lacking that cutting edge that other young drivers like Bottas, Grosjean and Ricciardo have. The similarities don't stop there, as both Hulk and Heidfeld demolished the junior categories before making it to F1.

Discuss.

You could also add to that list the fact that both Hulkenberg and Heidfeld have been snubbed by a major team because they wanted to hire Raikkonen instead...

On a similar theme, Enoch has commented that one problem that Hulkenberg seems to have is that he doesn't have quite as many absolutely astounding races that have lead to eye catching freak results, as happened with Perez a few years ago when he was at Sauber. As he pointed out, it was Perez who picked up that first podium finish for Force India this season, not Hulkenberg, even though Hulkenberg more normally has a slight edge over Perez.

He did have races for Sauber which were very eye catching, but part of the problem there is that Gutierrez is such a poor benchmark that I suspect many were not really sure if it was the case that Hulkenberg was exceeding expectations and maximising the car in those final races, or he was actually meeting expectations and Gutierrez was so far off the pace it accentuated that divide. Similarly, when he was at Force India for the first time, whilst he put in some good races, so did di Resta (such as in Singapore), so it wasn't necessarily clear for a while where he stood.

Perhaps another issue is that, in earlier seasons, he tended to have a relatively sluggish start - in 2010, 2012 and 2013, the bulk of his points have come within the last half of the season (in 2012, the bulk came in the final third of the season) - which might have also put some teams off.

[Nessafox]

I know i've been acting rather awkward the last few days.

Deal with it!

[dr-baker]

I know i've been acting rather awkward the last few days.

Deal with it!

I can deal with it. Just don't come looking for me while dressed as a brolita...