2014 German Grand Prix Discussion Thread

[Salamander]

So the first practice session is underway... aaaaaand Susie Wolff has broken down. Again. Some sort of electrical/software glitch in the gearbox it seems.

She was at least able to get the car back, and Williams should be able to fix it and get her some actual running, so fingers crossed.

EDIT: Wolff's car has been fixed and she's doing a lap right now.

[Shizuka]

So the first practice session is underway... aaaaaand Susie Wolff has broken down. Again. Some sort of electrical/software glitch in the gearbox it seems.

She was at least able to get the car back, and Williams should be able to fix it and get her some actual running, so fingers crossed.

EDIT: Wolff's car has been fixed and she's doing a lap right now.

Now, putting the argument whether she's capable of a full-time drive or not (I'm simply not taking a part in it) aside, you have to say she's getting a bigger slice of technical issues.

[Londoner]

Thank you!

It's copyright law, for crying out loud. Whether or not you agree with it, it's the law.

What, for protecting their investment?

Sure Mercedes would be happy for a rival to their sponsors using the Mercedes intellectual properties without permission.

Boo, hiss. Stop sticking up for FIFA, and admit they're in the wrong.

I'm being told Massa is only 3 tenths faster than young Susie in FP1 at the moment. Felipe mate, what are you doing?

[Shizuka]

Apparently Vettel's latest helmet (celebrating Germany's FWC victory - hopefully without the cup on it, I'm looking at Rosberg's mishaps, FIFA!) wasn't able to be attached to the HANS system. Seriously?

[Cynon]

Pat on the back to Susie Wolff. Granted, Williams doesn't look good in sector 3, but that's still a lot better than I was expecting.

Especially since she's been out of racing for two years...

[Shizuka]

Hey FIFA!

Remember THIS?

[good_Ralf]

Hey FIFA!

Remember THIS?

Didn't give Fisico much luck in the two races held during the WC did it, if helmet designs are often meant to do that. But on the other hand FIFA are being really silly if they (probably...) allowed this 8 years ago.

And, yeah, Wolff is doing alright I think. Not good enough for a Williams seat next year but perhaps in a smaller team?

One of the reasons Wolff is this high is that she obviously knows this track well from DTM. I question what her pace would be like on other tracks.

[CoopsII]

Hey FIFA!

Remember THIS?

Ha! Official proof that Italy is more popular than Germany

And, yeah, Wolff is doing alright I think. Not good enough for a Williams seat next year but perhaps in a smaller team?

[DemocalypseNow]

This protecting Hyundai's exclusive World Cup rights stuff is nonsense. As you can clearly see, Mercedes already has an association with winning the World Cup!

[Ferrim]

I might be mistaken, but that has to be the most competitive outing by a woman in an official F1 session since Lella Lombardi.

[Ben Gilbert]

I might be mistaken, but that has to be the most competitive outing by a woman in an official F1 session since Lella Lombardi.

Actually, if we're going just by timed sessions, then it may be the most competitive outing ever by a woman in an official F1 session.

Lella Lombardi's highest grid position was 20th (1975 Austria, and that was after two drivers ahead withdrew), and Desire Wilson qualified 16th for the (non-Championship) 1981 South African GP. Both Maria Teresa de Filipis and Davina Galica managed to qualify 15th in F1 races, but Galica's was in the non-Championship 1977 International Trophy, and in de Felipis' case (1958 Portugal) 15th was last place (by 15 seconds).

I'm not sure about practice results, though, so I may be wrong.

[DemocalypseNow]

Only two tenths off? That's pretty good. I do wonder what the comparitive fuel loads, setup choices etc for the two cars was though.

[Jocke1]

I'm sorry, baker. I'll stop it if you want.
I wasn't humoring you, in fact I thank you.

Thanks to you 'Quick' Nick Chester has become a legend in my household.
I always eagerly await his next move and I live by his words.

There are many wonders in the world.
Hanging Gardens of Babylon? Great Pyramid of Giza?
Great Wall of China? Stonehenge? Victoria Falls?
Chichen Itza? Aurora Borealis? Hoover Dam?

But no thank you. I'll take Nick Chester.

[Jocke1]

Susie was 15th fastest? And I missed it
How did she manage that? I'll tell you how..

[CoopsII]

Only two tenths off? That's pretty good. I do wonder what the comparitive fuel loads, setup choices etc for the two cars was though.

Yeah, does anyone know how similarly set-up the cars were? I'm not pissing on her chips, she still done good.

[DanielPT]

Only two tenths off? That's pretty good. I do wonder what the comparitive fuel loads, setup choices etc for the two cars was though.

Yeah, does anyone know how similarly set-up the cars were? I'm not pissing on her chips, she still done good.

Very good, even if in fumes. I was expecting some sort of embarassment following some previous DTM displays and racing rustiness but I guess I both overrated F1 drivers and underrated the DTM field and above all Mrs Wolff. This bodes well for other female drivers who are fighting for a chance, namely De Silvestro. I wonder what she could do. Maybe in a few years we can look back to this day and say that this day was when everything started to click for women drivers in F1.

[Klon]

I for one call BS on Wolff's time. It's a glory run for sure. It means nothing and especially does not change the fact that she isn't even remotely competent enough to be given an actual race drive.

[dr-baker]

I for one call BS on Wolff's time. It's a glory run for sure. It means nothing and especially does not change the fact that she isn't even remotely competent enough to be given an actual race drive.

I knew that there would be a doubter. What on earth would she have to do to convince you that she even had a modicum of talent? Go fastest by 5 tenths? But even then, you would probably accuse her of going for a light-fuel run on softer tyres while absolutely none of the other 21 did so?

The fact is, in Autosport's write-up of FP1, it is stated that Williams set her the target of being within 5 tenths of Massa. At the end of the session, she was a mere 2 tenths away, less than half of the target margin. Now tell me what she has to do to impress.

I'm sorry, baker. I'll stop it if you want.
I wasn't humoring you, in fact I thank you.

Thanks to you 'Quick' Nick Chester has become a legend in my household.
I always eagerly await his next move and I live by his words.

But no thank you. I'll take Nick Chester.

Nah, it's cool.

[CoopsII]

I for one call BS on Wolff's time. It's a glory run for sure. It means nothing and especially does not change the fact that she isn't even remotely competent enough to be given an actual race drive.

Yep, Tediously Predictable Opinion Of The Race.

[Klon]

What on earth would she have to do to convince you that she even had a modicum of talent?

You know, she could have tried ... I dunno ... not be the single worst driver in DTM history? Getting a F1 drive without getting plowed by a guy with influence at her team's engine supplier? Just because her times look somewhat reasonable does not mean I am going to disreagard nearly a decade of being absolutely worth-, use- and talentless. My favourite way to remove body hair is Ockham's razor, so the logical explanation is not that she suddenly has digged up skills out of nowhere, no, the logical explanation is that something her time is awry (read: glory run)

[Wallio]

The facts are somewhere in the middle ground. Was her run today pretty damn impressive? Yes, no one can question that. However, no one can question the fact that she only got the drive because her husband has an arseton of Williams stock. Plus, in an NBC interview, even Susie herself admits Williams have no plans to run her again anytime soon. So I'd say its a push. But she certainly took advantage of the opportunity.

[CoopsII]

Cant we get past how she got the drive? We all know its not from blowing the lower formulae into the weeds but this is modern F1; merit is neither here nor there. I think the driver did a good job. End of. Literally, as we probably wont see her do it ever again

[Meatwad]

You know, she could have tried ... I dunno ... not be the single worst driver in DTM history?

I think that's a bit harsh. Based on statistics, she wasn't even the worst female driver in the series. Frey may have been better, but Ickx and Legge never even scored a point, which Susie managed to do more than once. The worst DTM driver is probably Darryl O'Young who only participated once and ended up missing the race after wrecking his car in qualifying.

I agree that Wolff doesn't deserve an F1 seat based on her previous achievements, but even excluding Nissany, she is not the worst driver to drive in first practice (Rodolfo González gets the dubious honor). While female drivers may get seats more easily than males with similar talent, they are obviously criticized more, as well.

[Ataxia]

If Susie Wolff ever got an F1 drive full time it would be a travesty. Although she waxes lyrical about how she's "an inspiration to young female drivers" and all that guff, she's shown younger female drivers that it's totally okay to sleep your way to the top.

If she was impressive, fine, good for her. However, it's ridiculous that out of the vast talent pool to grace DTM in the last 10 years that she's there with a test seat.

Plus, we don't have the whole picture. You know, fuel-corrected lap times, all the data. Give me all of Felipe's data and then Susie's data, and then I'll have an opinion.

[dr-baker]

Some drivers' junior careers were not great, but have turned out alright (Kamui Kobayashi for example). History is not always a reliable guide to future performance. Susie would have been a disaster if she had completed the same number of laps but ended up amongst the Marussias and Caterhams on the timesheets. Would Klon have the same opinion if it had been Felipe Nasr in the car and had set identical laptimes?

[Cynon]

While female drivers may get seats more easily than males with similar talent, they are obviously criticized more, as well.

I'm calling crap on that one. Katherine Legge did say that, earlier in her career, it was much harder for her to land a seat because owners didn't want to take a chance on a female driver. Especially for the negative attention they might get if she didn't do well.

Plus, we don't have the whole picture. You know, fuel-corrected lap times, all the data. Give me all of Felipe's data and then Susie's data, and then I'll have an opinion.

Not to mention driver weight... and I don't think there is a driver lighter than Felipe Massa, since he's barely taller than an Oompa Loompa and weighs about as much as a cookie.

Marcus Ericsson did, after all, say that his weight would hamper him by around 3 tenths in comparison to Kobayashi.

[Ataxia]

Some drivers' junior careers were not great, but have turned out alright (Kamui Kobayashi for example). History is not always a reliable guide to future performance.

Yeah, but there's a difference. Kamui still won GP2 Asia and had experience of wins in GP2 and Formula 3. Wolff has had none of these things, she's scored four points in DTM (and don't buy into the "she had a year or over-old car" spiel that Andrew Benson's been harping on about, Paul di Resta won the damn thing in a year-old car in 2010). As much as you can point to anomalies in history, think of junior results as qualifications. In short, it would be like giving a 5-year-old a job as a doctor just because he wore a stethoscope once.

[girry]

Regardless of what the fuel levels were, Susie did demonstrate she at least doesn't belong to the category Rodolfo Gonzalez behind the wheel of an F1 car.

Which is why I am a bit surprised since her previous achievements suggested nothing like that. But, kudos to her anyway - not the first driver to be completely off their open wheel pace in touring cars...

[noiceinmydrink]

I couldn't give a rat's ass how any driver gets to Formula 1. If they do a good job, which Susie did, then why bother moaning about "oh she's only there because Toto". Why do you care so much? DTM results are irrelevant considering that they are both totally different series with totally different cars with totally different drivers.

[mario]

While female drivers may get seats more easily than males with similar talent, they are obviously criticized more, as well.

I'm calling crap on that one. Katherine Legge did say that, earlier in her career, it was much harder for her to land a seat because owners didn't want to take a chance on a female driver. Especially for the negative attention they might get if she didn't do well.

Plus, we don't have the whole picture. You know, fuel-corrected lap times, all the data. Give me all of Felipe's data and then Susie's data, and then I'll have an opinion.

Not to mention driver weight... and I don't think there is a driver lighter than Felipe Massa, since he's barely taller than an Oompa Loompa and weighs about as much as a cookie.

Marcus Ericsson did, after all, say that his weight would hamper him by around 3 tenths in comparison to Kobayashi.

Driver weight should be less of an issue, since the indication is that Williams have had no issues with getting their car under the weight limit - incidentally, in terms of driver weight, I believe that Massa weighs in at 58kg, which puts him towards the lower end of the weight scale (I believe that Hamilton, Vettel and Gutierrez are a similar weight to Massa, and I think that Gutierrez might actually be fractionally lighter than Massa).

By contrast, I suspect that Ericsson's issues come from the fact that Caterham are probably marginal or perhaps over the weight limit, which would probably explain why he is at more of a disadvantage - Sutil, for example, claims to be losing out heavily to Gutierrez because Sutil is one of, if not the heaviest, in the field, a problem compounded by the fact that Sauber's car was, and might still be, some way over the minimum weight limit.

[Salamander]

DTM results are irrelevant considering that they are both totally different series with totally different cars with totally different drivers.

But Wolff's career was DTM. Just because it's a series where proficiency doesn't transfer well between F1 and itself doesn't mean that you can just write it off entirely. Else any old stooge in DTM can justify a position in F1.

[noiceinmydrink]

But Wolff's career was DTM.

[Salamander]

DTM results are irrelevant considering that they are both totally different series with totally different cars with totally different drivers.

But Wolff's career was DTM.

Yes, because 3 seasons of 4th-tier racing with a grand total of 0 wins, 0 poles, 0 fastest laps, 4 podiums, and a best championship position of 5th, as well as 2 races in British F3, all attained the best part of a decade or more ago, completely outweighs a DTM career that spans the intervening period.

[noiceinmydrink]

Yes, because 3 seasons of 4th-tier racing with a grand total of 0 wins, 0 poles, 0 fastest laps, 4 podiums, and a best championship position of 5th, as well as 2 races in British F3, all attained the best part of a decade or more ago, completely outweighs a DTM career that spans the intervening period.

I never said that. My point was that she didn't spend her entire career in DTM. Don't put words in my mouth. And drop the sarcasm if you want to have any sort of meaningful discussion.

[DanielPT]

Some drivers' junior careers were not great, but have turned out alright (Kamui Kobayashi for example). History is not always a reliable guide to future performance.

Yeah, but there's a difference. Kamui still won GP2 Asia and had experience of wins in GP2 and Formula 3. Wolff has had none of these things, she's scored four points in DTM (and don't buy into the "she had a year or over-old car" spiel that Andrew Benson's been harping on about, Paul di Resta won the damn thing in a year-old car in 2010). As much as you can point to anomalies in history, think of junior results as qualifications. In short, it would be like giving a 5-year-old a job as a doctor just because he wore a stethoscope once.

Now let me see... Ah yes, this still is F1Rejects forum. For a minute I thought that I had entered another forum. Then again, since when did we start bashing those less blessed with talent? Drivers that somehow manage to ply their trade in F1 having used less honourable paths to get there? I agree that sleeping her way into a drive isn't really a great way to do it as I will put in a very understated way. But is it that worse than buying a seat? Or buying a seat without any background in lower formula like Giovanni Lavaggi did? I know that those days were less professional but if she doesn't place herself in danger or others (like Pastor Maldonado usually does or Yuji Ide used to do) or isn't very slow (like Ide, again, or Sakon Yamamoto who were out of their depth) I can't see why we would treat her differently regardless of gender and the slightly different way she bought the seat. Sure her days in DTM weren't that great, but then some seasoned F1 drivers went there only to end up making up the numbers (Ralf Schumacher comes to mind). I say, if Williams end up giving her another chance why not, let's see some more of her and why not support her? I remember supporting Yamamoto. It shouldn't be that different.

[Salamander]

I never said that. My point was that she didn't spend her entire career in DTM. Don't put words in my mouth. And don't get sarcastic if you want to have any sort of meaningful discussion.

You know what I was getting at - nobody is going to consider a driver based on 3 rather mediocre seasons in a fourth-tier feeder series over 7 seasons in a series where multiple Formula 1 drivers have raced after retiring, that was also more recent.

And if you want to have a discussion, perhaps back up your picture with some words - any words. Or address the rest of my post. That would've been nice. Though I was just trying to point out how you can't completely write DTM off as a gauge for an F1 driver when it's easily the most relevant part of their CV. Not that I have a problem with Susie Wolff being in her position, I just don't think we should forget that her career up to this point hasn't exactly been stellar.

[AndreaModa]

Haha come on people let's not get hung up over her career, that's not the fundamental point here. I think it's great that she's been given the chance in a relatively pressure-free environment to do her thing.

The problem is she isn't the best example for aspiring women trying to get into motorsport. There are far more talented women on the sidelines not getting this sort of opportunity, and if I'm honest, I'd rather see Simona de Silvestro given a crack even in a crappy Sauber than see Susie effectively hog the "women in motorsport" limelight. It's not fair on those who have worked very hard to get where they are and are legitimately worthy of the drive on ability alone.

It's precisely the same argument you might have if Sakon Yamamoto rocked up in Hungary to drive the Caterham instead of Frijns or Sainz Jnr being given a chance. Whether the driver is male or female is irrelevant, and only when that is properly grasped by fans and journalists, that whatever gender the driver is is inconsequential, then we will truly see a level playing field and parity for women.

As it is, camps on both sides of the fence are doing just as much damage to women in motorsport, and I'm sorry to say that I think Susie is a part of that. Obviously she can't help what the journos write, but she is playing up to the image and effectively encouraging it.

[noiceinmydrink]

You know what I was getting at - nobody is going to consider a driver based on 3 rather mediocre seasons in a fourth-tier feeder series over 7 seasons in a series where multiple Formula 1 drivers have raced after retiring, that was also more recent.

And if you want to have a discussion, perhaps back up your picture with some words - any words. Or address the rest of my post. That would've been nice. Though I was just trying to point out how you can't completely write DTM off as a gauge for an F1 driver when it's easily the most relevant part of their CV. Not that I have a problem with Susie Wolff being in her position, I just don't think we should forget that her career up to this point hasn't exactly been stellar.

That's was the purpose of the picture; to replace words where a picture would suffice. I get it, some think it's a blunt way of getting your point across. If you don't like it, tough.

I didn't address the rest because I didn't feel like it needed to be addressed. It was a valid enough point, just like the rest of your post here. I shouldn't write it off completely, fair enough - good point. But as I said, who gives a shite? This would have mattered before she got her seat, but she's in F1 now (to an extent), what matters is that she proves herself worthy of keeping the seat now.

[wsrgo]

Well, I agree that Wolff has taken full advantage of the opportunity handed out to her, glory run or not. She could have spun or crashed, but she didn't, and managed to put in a respectful lap time on the board.

However, I find myself asking the question, what if she were not given this opportunity? She cannot be compared to the likes of Ricardo Teixeira or Rodolfo Gonzalez. The aforementioned drivers brought in a fair share of cash for their F1 chance, but the same can't be said for Wolff..in what way does she help the team? She's not a pay driver, she's not an experienced test driver. The only reason I can have is that she's close to the Williams team, and the only reason for that is that she's Toto Wolff's wife.

People here might say stuff like, DTM is not a fair representation of her ability, and it could be true. Ralf Schumacher couldn't cut it in DTM. Roberto Merhi couldn't either, in the two seasons he got, but now he's back in single seaters and running second in the Formula Renault 3.5 standings in a Zeta Corse of all things. But to discard her poor performances in junior single-seaters, taking Kobayashi as an example? Kobayashi won the Italian Formula Renault 2.0 and theEurocup Formula Renault 2.0 championship in 2005, he did reasonably well in F3 in 2006, not far off teammate van der Garde, who was a third-year driver. He won GP2 Asia. He raced for DAMS when DAMS was genuinely crap, miles off from the rocket ship they are these days.

So please, do not equate an Italian and European Formula Renault champ with a person who finished fifth in British Formula Renault after three seasons of toil. And Susie was a distant fifth that year, getting just over half the points of eventual champion Mike Conway. Her Comtec teammate Westley Barber, who finished 154 points (yes, it's not a typo) ahead of Wolff, was a Formula Renault rookie.

Susie Wolff did not even deserve to be Williams's development driver in the first place. She should not even have got the opportunity to drive in a Formula 1 weekend. She is not an inspiration to any self-respecting female driver aspiring to reach Formula One. There are enough role models in Simona de Silvestro, whose tag of "Iron Lady" is not for nothing. Or Beitske Visser, who's career has been completely mismanaged so far, but is still trying to cope with it, putting in the occasional strong drive in a series where she is rightly out of depth (ADAC Formel Masters is a step above karting, to go from there to Formula Renault 3.5 was nothing short of madness on the part of her managers). But it'll be a bad advertisement for female drivers if Susie Wolff ever gets a Formula One seat.

[AustralianStig]

Please, ladies and gentlemen, lets just embrace the rejectfulness and HWNSNBM will smile upon you.