1980 Alternate F1 - Season final at Suzuka up

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 11 Apr 2014, 15:31

The new rules come out after a race in which BMW-powered cars sweep the podium, something which I believe we have never done before. And all 6 BMW-powered entries finished. A nice bow to wrap up the old engines lifespan.

As for the rules, I have to say overall I am pleasantly surprised with these changes they are much better than the original rumors. Pi has kept his word and made the budgets competitive, and the system seems easy to understand. While not as good as the current system, I think it has a lot of room to grow. One interesting thing is if the prevailing assumptions hold true and nearly everyone builds a turbo, DNFs are going to increase quite a bit, which believe it or not, I like, as it should shake the grids up quite a bit.

What I'm not crazy over is the lack of customization in this new system. Currently all the engines are a bit different (as can be seen on the first page) ours guzzle fuel, the Matras are well balanced, and Cosworth has sunk a ton into POWAHHHHHH. This new system will see companies"pick a tier and go racing", which coupled with the unreliability, will even things up quite a bit, which was the plan. Year 2 and 3 should be interesting when developments start to kick in. Again this is assuming everyone builds a turbo, an NA car could shake things up a bit.

PI, one stupid question though, just because I want to be extra-extra sure. I assume the build costs are per engine? So a team would pay 1.4 mil for a Tier 1, 1.2 mil for a Tier 2, etc.?

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 11 Apr 2014, 15:45

About the lack of customization, I noticed I forgot to add a sentence:

"4) When building a new engine, a supplier can focus on one area of development, which means that the range for the next higher tier is used for that area of development."

I also added the upgrading rules for engines.

Also, you are correct, the building costs are per car.

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 11 Apr 2014, 15:51

pi314159 wrote:About the lack of customization, I noticed I forgot to add a sentence:

"4) When building a new engine, a supplier can focus on one area of development, which means that the range for the next higher tier is used for that area of development."

I also added the upgrading rules for engines.

Also, you are correct, the building costs are per car.

Ah I like that actually. That is making me rethink my plans now.....

Hermann95 · Post by **Hermann95** » 11 Apr 2014, 16:11

Will upgrades effect the building costs and will there be any additional upgrading costs for the teams?

pycku · Post by **pycku** » 11 Apr 2014, 17:21

Hmm I like the new rules. I hope Arrows can generate enough money to stay in top league and challenge once again with Mclaren.

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 15 Apr 2014, 17:09

Finally this series continues:

1980 Swiss Grand Prix - Pre-qualifying
1. Jochen Mass (Kauhsen WK2) 1:09.631
2. Brian Henton (Surtees TS21) +0.100
3. Emerson Fittipaldi (Penske PC7) +0.302
4. Teddy Pilette (Kauhsen WK2) +0.352
5. Mario Andretti (Penske PC7) +0.353
6. Tony Trimmer (Rebaque HR101) +0.429
7. Jean-Pierre Jabouille (Rebaque HR101) +0.447
8. Chris Amon (Surtees TS21) +0.512
9. Niki Lauda (Lotus 81) +0.547
10. Rick Mears (Lotus 81) +0.757
11. Jo Zeller (Boro 004) +0.817
12. Huub Rothengatter (Boro 004) +1.572
13. Marc Surer (ATS D3) +2.072
14. Jochen Dauer (Wolf WR9) +2.760
15. Franz Konrad (ATS D3) +3.105

1980 Swiss Grand Prix - Qualifying
1. James Hunt (McLaren M29) 1:06.603
2. Tom Pryce (McLaren M29) +0.041
3. Patrick Depailler (Arrows A3) +0.322
4. Didier Pironi (Ligier JS11-15) +0.647
5. Satoru Nakajima (Ligier JS11-15) +0.702
6. Gilles Villeneuve (Ferrari 312T5) +0.816
7. Keke Rosberg (Brabham BT49) +0.884
8. Jody Scheckter (Brabham BT49) +1.088
9. Jacques Laffite (Arrows A3) +1.141
10. Patrick Tambay (Shadow DN11) +1.200
11. Elio de Angelis (Ferrari 312T5) +1.207
12. Derek Daly (Project Four OP4-1) +1.231
13. Jean-Pierre Jarier (Williams FW07B) +1.252
14. Riccardo Patrese (Osella FA1) +1.282
15. Carlos Pace (Williams FW07B) +1.528
16. Nigel Mansell (Alfa Romeo 180) +1.607
17. Michele Alboreto (Osella FA1) +1.684
18. Nelson Piquet (Tyrrell 010) +1.697
19. Stefan Johansson (Shadow DN11) +1.769
20. John Watson (Project Four OP4-1) +1.865
21. Carlos Reutemann (Ensign N180) +1.953
22. Eddie Cheever (Alfa Romeo 180) +2.065
23. Tom Sneva (Ensign N180) +2.341
24. Alain Prost (Renault RE20) +2.671
25. Clay Regazzoni (March 801) +2.716
26. Alan Jones (Renault RE20) +2.938
27. Jacky Ickx (March 801) +2.939
28. Tony Trimmer (Rebaque HR101) +3.014
29. Jan Lammers (Tyrrell 010) +3.104
30. Brian Henton (Surtees TS21) +3.409
31. Mario Andretti (Penske PC7) +3.534
32. Jochen Mass (Kauhsen WK2) +3.640
33. Teddy Pilette (Kauhsen WK2) +3.677
34. Emerson Fittipaldi (Penske PC7) +3.795

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 15 Apr 2014, 20:41

Yup, same old problem, we beat certain cars in pre-qualifying, only to get beaten by those cars in main qualifying. I guess there's not much hope left, unless Ferrari can help me out?

andrew · Post by **andrew** » 18 Apr 2014, 09:12

As I have exams I can not properly manage, Therfore ATS are up for grabs (not that anyone will want it)

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 18 Apr 2014, 13:04

Sorry for the lack of live commentary, I just didn't have time for it this week.

1. Jacques Laffite (Arrows-Renault) 80 Laps
2. Jody Scheckter (Brabham-Matra) +56.513
3. Stefan Johansson (Shadow-BMW) +1 Lap
4. Keke Rosberg (Brabham-Matra) +1 Lap
5. Satoru Nakajima (Ligier-Ferrari) +1 Lap
6. Michele Alboreto (Osella-Ferrari) +1 Lap
7. Gilles Villeneuve (Ferrari) +1 Lap
8. Carlos Pace (Williams-Matra) +1 Lap
9. Elio de Angelis (Ferrari) +1 Lap
10. Riccardo Patrese (Osella-Ferrari) +1 Lap
11. Jean-Pierre Jarier (Williams-Matra) +1 Lap
12. Derek Daly (Project Four-BMW) +1 Lap
13. Patrick Tambay (Shadow-BMW) +1 Lap
14. Patrick Depailler (Arrows-Renault) +2 Laps / Engine
15. Tom Sneva (Ensign-Ferrari) +2 Laps
16. Eddie Cheever (Alfa Romeo) +2 Laps
17. Tony Trimmer (Rebaque-Cosworth) +3 Laps
DNF John Watson (Project Four-BMW) +17 Laps / Gearbox
DNF Nelson Piquet (Tyrrell-Cosworth) +18 Laps / Brakes
DNF NIgel Mansell (Alfa Romeo) +27 Laps / Clutch
DNF James Hunt (McLaren-BMW) +30 Laps / Suspension
DNF Jacky Ickx (March-Matra) +39 Laps / Electrics
DNF Didier Pironi (Ligier-Ferrari) +40 Laps / Gearbox
DNF Carlos Reutemann (Ensign-Ferrari) +41 Laps / Engine
DNF Clay Regazzoni (March-Matra) +43 Laps / Clutch
DNF Tom Pryce (McLaren-BMW) +44 Laps / Engine
DNF Alain Prost (Renault) +57 Laps / Transmission
DNF Alan Jones (Renault) +58 Laps / Gearbox

Fastest Lap: Jody Scheckter (Brabham-Matra)

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 18 Apr 2014, 18:20

andrew wrote:As I have exams I can not properly manage, Therfore ATS are up for grabs (not that anyone will want it)

I'd love to take over ATS next year, and retire Kauhsen (because they didn't last that long in reality either)
However, as i've pulled a similar move before with the Kojima/BRM thing, pi314159 will not be too happy about this

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 18 Apr 2014, 19:33

This wrote:
andrew wrote:As I have exams I can not properly manage, Therfore ATS are up for grabs (not that anyone will want it)

I'd love to take over ATS next year, and retire Kauhsen (because they didn't last that long in reality either)
However, as i've pulled a similar move before with the Kojima/BRM thing, pi314159 will not be too happy about this

Did you want to merge Wolf with Kauhsen

pycku · Post by **pycku** » 21 Apr 2014, 08:26

Jacques makes the impossible to keep his championship chances alive. What a wonderful race and unexpected victory is even more than we deserved. However, there are many more races and we should try even harder to have any chance of success.

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 21 Apr 2014, 08:34

This wrote:
andrew wrote:As I have exams I can not properly manage, Therfore ATS are up for grabs (not that anyone will want it)

I'd love to take over ATS next year, and retire Kauhsen (because they didn't last that long in reality either)
However, as i've pulled a similar move before with the Kojima/BRM thing, pi314159 will not be too happy about this

You can take over ATS if you want, the problem is however, that they are 227 000 credits in debt as well, and most likely won't score any prize money at all. Given ATS' current situation, you could probably get about 100 000 credits by pay drivers, so you would need support from another team to continue into 1981.

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 21 Apr 2014, 19:02

Autosport wrote:Penske, ATS absent from Zandvoort

It has been known for months that some of the teams near the back of the grid are in serious financial trouble. Despite these rumors, all teams except Wolf have managed to be present with two cars for each of the first twelve rounds of the championship. But at Zandvoort, two teams will be absent.

The first one is ATS, who have been in trouble for over a year, failing to qualify for all of 1979, and have spent all of 1980 in pre-qualifying so far, and are by far the slowest team. They are currently looking for a new manager, and the management turbulences have resulted in an absence of the team from Zandvoort. There are however talks with Kauhsen, another german team reported to be struggling for money, to merge both teams, so we might see a return of ATS before the end of the season.

Definitely over is Roger Penske's Formula 1 effort. The former race-winning team failed to secure a title sponsor for 1980, and as a result dropped more and more towards the back of the grid. When the team arrived in pre-qualifying, Penske had enough. Unwilling to spend any more money on the F1 entry, Penske will be absent from the remaining races of 1980, and won't return for 1981 either, focusing completely on racing in the United States.

Penske also has sold Cosworth, after only buying the engine supplier in early 1980.

OOC: ATS will be absent at Zandvoort, due to not having a manager yet. Also, missing the race saves ATS 20 000 credits, and in their situation, it would be difficult to get more than that from pay drivers. Penske are shutting down because Ferrarist has left the forums. Cosworth will be managed by Salamander from now on.

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 21 Apr 2014, 19:19

1980 Dutch Grand Prix - Pre-Qualifying:

1. Thierry Boutsen (Rebaque HR101) 1:16.868
2. Jochen Mass (Kauhsen WK2) +0.218
3. Jean-Pierre Jabouille (Rebaque HR101) +0.554
4. Chris Amon (Surtees TS21) +0.907
5. Rick Mears (Lotus 81) +1.024
6. Niki Lauda (Lotus 81) +1.046
7. Michael Bleekemolen (Boro 004) +1.193
8. Masami Kuwashima (Kauhsen WK2) +1.258
9. Huub Rothengatter (Boro 004) +1.432
10. Brian Henton (Surtees TS21) +1.591
11. Jochen Dauer (Wolf WR9) +3.612

1980 Dutch Grand Prix - Qualifying:
1. Tom Pryce (McLaren M29) 1:14.722
2. Arie Luyendyk (Ligier JS11-15) +0.132
3. James Hunt (McLaren M29) +0.207
4. Didier Pironi (Ligier JS11-15) +0.237
5. Jody Scheckter (Brabham BT49) +0.849
6. Jacques Laffite (Arrows A3) +0.852
7. Keke Rosberg (Brabham BT49) +1.080
8. Stefan Johansson (Shadow DN11) +1.190
9. Patrick Depailler (Arrows A3) +1.248
10. Elio de Angelis (Ferrari 312T5) +1.291
11. Patrick Tambay (Shadow DN11) +1.429
12. Gilles Villeneuve (Ferrari 312T5) +1.614
13. Carlos Pace (Williams FW07B) +1.686
14. Derek Daly (Project Four OP4-1) +1.957
15. Nigel Mansell (Alfa Romeo 180) +1.981
16. John Watson (Project Four OP4-1) +2.128
17. Michele Alboreto (Osella FA1) +2.195
18. Jean-Pierre Jarier (Williams FW07B) +2.280
19. Tom Sneva (Ensign N180) +2.345
20. Riccardo Patrese (Osella FA1) +2.392
21. Carlos Reutemann (Ensign N180) +2.474
22. Nelson Piquet (Tyrrell 010) +2.680
23. Eddie Cheever (Alfa Romeo 180) +2.715
24. Jacky Ickx (March 801) +3.048
25. Alain Prost (Renault RE20) +3.135
26. Jochen Mass (Kauhsen WK2) +3.177
27. Clay Regazzoni (March 801) +3.539
28. Chris Amon (Surtees TS21) +3.742
29. Jean-Pierre Jabouille (Rebaque HR101) +3.754
30. Jan Lammers (Tyrrell 010) +3.755
31. Niki Lauda (Lotus 81) +3.816
32. Alan Jones (Renault RE20) +3.826
33. Thierry Boutsen (Rebaque HR101) +4.048
34. Rick Mears (Lotus 81) +4.375

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 21 Apr 2014, 21:52

pi314159 wrote:
This wrote:
andrew wrote:As I have exams I can not properly manage, Therfore ATS are up for grabs (not that anyone will want it)

I'd love to take over ATS next year, and retire Kauhsen (because they didn't last that long in reality either)
However, as i've pulled a similar move before with the Kojima/BRM thing, pi314159 will not be too happy about this

You can take over ATS if you want, the problem is however, that they are 227 000 credits in debt as well, and most likely won't score any prize money at all. Given ATS' current situation, you could probably get about 100 000 credits by pay drivers, so you would need support from another team to continue into 1981.

By my calculations: if the budgets are correct, Wolfs debt limit still allows them to get bigger debts and pay off ATS' debts, which would be good enough to keep ATS afloat to get them into 1981. Of course, this would allow all 3 teams to keep running their 1980 plans, but only one of them to continue into 1981 (which would be ATS). So if the owners of Wolf and ATS both agree, a reject dream team is just made

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 22 Apr 2014, 16:17

1980 Dutch Grand Prix - Race:

1. Didier Pironi (Ligier-Ferrari) 75 Laps
2. Tom Pryce (McLaren-BMW) +12.332
3. Arie Luyendyk (Ligier-Ferrari) +58.897
4. Jean-Pierre Jarier (Williams-Matra) +1:06.465
5. Keke Rosberg (Brabham-Matra) +1 Lap
6. Elio de Angelis (Ferrari) +1 Lap
7. Carlos Pace (Williams-Matra) +2 Laps
8. Nigel Mansell (Alfa Romeo) +2 Laps
9. Riccardo Patrese (Osella-Ferrari) +2 Laps
10. John Watson (Project Four-BMW) +2 Laps
11. Eddie Cheever (Alfa Romeo) +2 Laps
12. Carlos Reutemann (Ensign-Ferrari) +2 Laps
13. Clay Regazzoni (March-Matra) +3 Laps
14. Chris Amon (Surtees-Cosworth) +3 Laps
15. Gilles Villeneuve (Ferrari) +6 Laps / Suspension
DNF Patrick Tambay (Shadow-BMW) +8 Laps / Brakes
DNF Johy Scheckter (Brabham-Matra) +14 Laps / Clutch
DNF Stefan Johansson (Shadow-BMW) +28 Laps / Clutch
DNF James Hunt (McLaren-BMW) +38 Laps / Electrics
DNF Tom Sneva (Ensign-Ferrari) +43 Laps / Suspension
DNF Derek Daly (Project Four-BMW) +47 Laps / Gearbox
DNF Jacky Ickx (March-Matra) +53 Laps / Gearbox
DNF Patrick Depailler (Arrows-Renault) +56 Laps / Suspension
DNF Jochen Mass (Kauhsen-Ferrari) +60 Laps / Suspension
DNF Nelson Piquet (Tyrrell-Cosworth) +63 Laps / Engine
DNF Jacques Laffite (Arrows-Renault) +64 Laps / Engine
DNF Alain Prost (Renault) +68 Laps / Engine
DNF Michele Alboreto (Osella-Ferrari) +71 Laps / Accident

Fastest Lap: Didier Pironi (Ligier-Ferrari)

takagi_for_the_win · Post by **takagi_for_the_win** » 22 Apr 2014, 17:00

Pah! Take that BMW!

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 22 Apr 2014, 17:26

This wrote:
pi314159 wrote:
This wrote:I'd love to take over ATS next year, and retire Kauhsen (because they didn't last that long in reality either)
However, as i've pulled a similar move before with the Kojima/BRM thing, pi314159 will not be too happy about this

You can take over ATS if you want, the problem is however, that they are 227 000 credits in debt as well, and most likely won't score any prize money at all. Given ATS' current situation, you could probably get about 100 000 credits by pay drivers, so you would need support from another team to continue into 1981.

By my calculations: if the budgets are correct, Wolfs debt limit still allows them to get bigger debts and pay off ATS' debts, which would be good enough to keep ATS afloat to get them into 1981. Of course, this would allow all 3 teams to keep running their 1980 plans, but only one of them to continue into 1981 (which would be ATS). So if the owners of Wolf and ATS both agree, a reject dream team is just made

Hell yeah I agree. You have control of Wolf as of now!

Pi314159, can I please go on the waiting list?

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 22 Apr 2014, 17:52

roblomas52 wrote:Hell yeah I agree. You have control of Wolf as of now!

Pi314159, can I please go on the waiting list?

If I understand correctly, all remaining money will be transferred from Wolf to ATS, and This takes control of ATS.

Of course you can go on the waiting list. You're currently in 8th postition, but since two new teams are joining for 1981, you will be at least 6th on the waiting list once 1981 starts.

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 22 Apr 2014, 18:06

pi314159 wrote:
roblomas52 wrote:Hell yeah I agree. You have control of Wolf as of now!

Pi314159, can I please go on the waiting list?

If I understand correctly, all remaining money will be transferred from Wolf to ATS, and This takes control of ATS.

Wolf will make as many debts as allowed, and all this money will be transferred to ATS. It is slightly against the spirit of the rules, so it's up to you to decide if it's allowed. It's also up to you to decide wheter or not Kauhsen is allowed to finish the season.
Wolf will discontinue immediatly, and ATS will be renamed ATS Wolf. Unless Wolf have any running deals with other teams or engine manufacturers, in that case, these deals will be honoured.
ATS Wolf will honour the driver contracts ATS has made.

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 22 Apr 2014, 18:19

This wrote:
pi314159 wrote:
roblomas52 wrote:Hell yeah I agree. You have control of Wolf as of now!

Pi314159, can I please go on the waiting list?

If I understand correctly, all remaining money will be transferred from Wolf to ATS, and This takes control of ATS.

Wolf will make as many debts as allowed, and all this money will be transferred to ATS. It is slightly against the spirit of the rules, so it's up to you to decide if it's allowed. It's also up to you to decide wheter or not Kauhsen is allowed to finish the season.
Wolf will discontinue immediatly, and ATS will be renamed ATS Wolf. Unless Wolf have any running deals with other teams or engine manufacturers, in that case, these deals will be honoured.
ATS Wolf will honour the driver contracts ATS has made.

The ATS-Wolf merger will be allowed. But I need to know which chassis, engine and drivers ATS Wolf will run for the rest of the year.

About Kauhsen, the rule is that each forum member can only run one team, but I made an exception for Wizzie running Merzario last year, so Kauhsen will be allowed to continue unless other teams protest against it.

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 22 Apr 2014, 18:23

Can I go on the waiting list please?

Hermann95 · Post by **Hermann95** » 22 Apr 2014, 19:11

Im really glad that we made some points. I know we only took them because a few front runners retired but at least we had the reliability to take the points. Hopefully we can do this again this year...

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 22 Apr 2014, 19:17

As ATS Wolf will take over the financial side of ATS, so i assume in reality it would legally be obligated to run the ATS car and the ATS factory and personnel. Wolf would only merge into ATS by name, but not by property. This means all ATS contracts will be honoured, including drivers and suppliers (engines)
I keep running Kauhsen for now, but if other team owners disagree, i will respect that opinion. Officially Kauhsen will now be 'for sale'. If anyone of you likes gambling, this your chance.

Normal32 · Post by **Normal32** » 22 Apr 2014, 21:45

Who will take over Kaushen ???

If i can count me in

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 23 Apr 2014, 12:39

Normal32 wrote:Who will take over Kaushen ???

If i can count me in

Kauhsen are over one million credits in debt, so trying to save the team would be very difficult. You can try if you want, but be aware that you would have to rejoin the waiting list in last position if you fail to get the team into 1981.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 23 Apr 2014, 13:18

Now that it seems that Mr Walter Wolf and company have fallen into some money, I'd like to bring up the debts that Mr Wolf owes Ferrari. , as stipulated here.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 23 Apr 2014, 14:07

Wizzie wrote:Now that it seems that Mr Walter Wolf and company have fallen into some money, I'd like to bring up the debts that Mr Wolf owes Ferrari. , as stipulated here.

Unless this compensation package was stipulated at the time of the commencing of Warwick's Wolf contract in the case of underperformance, Wolf don't owe Ferrari shite.

Normal32 · Post by **Normal32** » 23 Apr 2014, 16:20

pi314159 wrote:
Normal32 wrote:Who will take over Kaushen ???

If i can count me in

Kauhsen are over one million credits in debt, so trying to save the team would be very difficult. You can try if you want, but be aware that you would have to rejoin the waiting list in last position if you fail to get the team into 1981.

i Will try.

It will be a hard task to survive into 1981,but i will do it.

Also,i can take over Penske's facilities?

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 23 Apr 2014, 16:36

Biscione wrote:
Wizzie wrote:Now that it seems that Mr Walter Wolf and company have fallen into some money, I'd like to bring up the debts that Mr Wolf owes Ferrari. , as stipulated here.

Unless this compensation package was stipulated at the time of the commencing of Warwick's Wolf contract in the case of underperformance, Wolf don't owe Ferrari shite.

To my knowledge, there was no compensation package stipulated at the time.

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 23 Apr 2014, 18:26

Normal32 wrote:
pi314159 wrote:
Normal32 wrote:Who will take over Kaushen ???

If i can count me in

Kauhsen are over one million credits in debt, so trying to save the team would be very difficult. You can try if you want, but be aware that you would have to rejoin the waiting list in last position if you fail to get the team into 1981.

i Will try.

It will be a hard task to survive into 1981,but i will do it.

Also,i can take over Penske's facilities?

Wouldn't it be better for you to just offer to take over Penske as a whole instead, and leave Kauhsen die a slow painful horrible death?
And whatever Wolf owes to Ferrari, is now money that is lost for eternity, as Wolf has ceased to exist, and ATS Wolf is a continuation of ATS. However, as a compensation, ATS Wolf can sell Mr. Ferrari the ownership of the Kauhsen team!

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 24 Apr 2014, 03:02

This wrote:
Normal32 wrote:
pi314159 wrote:Kauhsen are over one million credits in debt, so trying to save the team would be very difficult. You can try if you want, but be aware that you would have to rejoin the waiting list in last position if you fail to get the team into 1981.

i Will try.

It will be a hard task to survive into 1981,but i will do it.

Also,i can take over Penske's facilities?

Wouldn't it be better for you to just offer to take over Penske as a whole instead, and leave Kauhsen die a slow painful horrible death?
And whatever Wolf owes to Ferrari, is now money that is lost for eternity, as Wolf has ceased to exist, and ATS Wolf is a continuation of ATS. However, as a compensation, ATS Wolf can sell Mr. Ferrari the ownership of the Kauhsen team!

This wrote:...Unless Wolf have any running deals with other teams or engine manufacturers, in that case, these deals will be honoured.

You categorically stated yourself that any deals Wolf had would be honoured, and Wolf had both ongoing deals with Ligier (which I'll get onto in a minute) and Ferrari. As far as I'm concerned, when Walter Wolf refused to pay earlier due to a lack of funds, he acknowledged that such a deal existed in principle, and thus implied he would pay at least part of it off at a later date. Since you promised to honour all existing deals as you inherited the financial assets of Wolf to keep ATS afloat, it's now your problem.

Now, another contract you have been found in breach of is the one concerning Ligier and Mr Didier Pironi. Since he is now technically off-contract thanks to your escapades, Ligier will pay him 100k to stay on for the rest of the year, and offer him a new 3 year deal at 500k a year on top of that with the following performance payments:

Championship win: 100k
Top 5 in the championship: 50k
Top 10 in the championship: 25k
Each point scored: 1k

Since Pironi was under contract with Wolf Racing at the time of the merger, his termination is deemed to be in breach of the contract between Ligier and Wolf (in that we would loan the team money to survive in exchange for Pironi's services for the entirety 1980). Therefore, as one of the creditors of Wolf''s financial assets that got transferred to ATS, we demand that the 48k loan be paid back in full (36k to Ligier and 12k to Ferrari), as well as 100k in damages to Ligier to cover the costs of the new contract with Pironi for the rest of the year.

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 24 Apr 2014, 07:52

Wizzie wrote:
This wrote:...Unless Wolf have any running deals with other teams or engine manufacturers, in that case, these deals will be honoured.

You categorically stated yourself that any deals Wolf had would be honoured, and Wolf had both ongoing deals with Ligier (which I'll get onto in a minute) and Ferrari. As far as I'm concerned, when Walter Wolf refused to pay earlier due to a lack of funds, he acknowledged that such a deal existed in principle, and thus implied he would pay at least part of it off at a later date. Since you promised to honour all existing deals as you inherited the financial assets of Wolf to keep ATS afloat, it's now your problem.

Now, another contract you have been found in breach of is the one concerning Ligier and Mr Didier Pironi. Since he is now technically off-contract thanks to your escapades, Ligier will pay him 100k to stay on for the rest of the year, and offer him a new 3 year deal at 500k a year on top of that with the following performance payments:

Championship win: 100k
Top 5 in the championship: 50k
Top 10 in the championship: 25k
Each point scored: 1k

Since Pironi was under contract with Wolf Racing at the time of the merger, his termination is deemed to be in breach of the contract between Ligier and Wolf (in that we would loan the team money to survive in exchange for Pironi's services for the entirety 1980). Therefore, as one of the creditors of Wolf''s financial assets that got transferred to ATS, we demand that the 48k loan be paid back in full (36k to Ligier and 12k to Ferrari), as well as 100k in damages to Ligier to cover the costs of the new contract with Pironi for the rest of the year.

Wolf do not exist no more so therefore we will not and can not pay.

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 24 Apr 2014, 18:24

Hm, turns out roblomas didn't tell me about these problems his team is in. Promising me that Wolf had no existing deals, i discontinued Wolf.
Well, Wizzie, i suggest you mail me all the details (because it's quite confusing for the moment) and i will work towards a solution.I officially don't have to do this,but i realise that having debts to other teams and constructors can lead towards blocking the merger.
Especially the Pironi deal looks to me as being kind of complicated, so i want to know what exactly Ligier and Wolf agreed to, and what Ferrari and Wolf agreed to.
You do understand that currently, there is no budget for any payment, but probably when the season starts, a small amount of sponsorship allows me to pay off a few debts.

Anyone else who has debts towards Wolf and ATS, please stand up now :roll:

Also i would like to inform if the previous owners of Penske feel anything for selling their stuff to ATS Wolf?

Oh yeah, a vulture i am!

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 24 Apr 2014, 21:29

As ATS legal counsel, I would like to remind my client that none of the details of the so-called Pironi deal were set in place when the contract was drafted. This is merely fabrication designed for Ligier to make an opportunistic quick buck. There was a single lump sum payment in one direction with no written demand for repayment at a later date. We advise that ATS are to spit in the face of Ligier's demands and tell their management where they can stick it.

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 24 Apr 2014, 23:48

looks like pi314159's going to have to say who's going to do what :oops:

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 25 Apr 2014, 20:26

This wrote:looks like pi314159's going to have to say who's going to do what

The only money that Wolf owe Ferrari and Ligier is the 42k loan, which they gave to Wolf in exchange for having Pironi in 1980. However, the Wolf team has ceased to exist, and by a loophole in the regulations, ATS didn't have to take over Wolf's existing debts.

About Pironi, he is indeed technically uncontracted for now, as the Wolf team doesn't exist any more, but he will finish the season for Ligier, as agreed at the start of 1980.

pycku · Post by **pycku** » 25 Apr 2014, 22:33

Personal opinion (as a lawyer): Wolf did not declared bankruptcy and there was no auction for their assets. There were no offers whatsoever to all users, Wolf just merged with ATS (at least ATS gets all money and name, which points out that) but if that was only for the assets there is going to be a fraud. This means that ATS should have taken all righst and all obligations of Wolf (no matter whether they will use their cars and/or drivers) and respect their contracts. No matter how the tame names further on, it is a merger. More or less was the situation with Kojima and BRM or LEC and Arrows.

I dont know what exactly were the contracts between Wolf and Ferrari (and between Wolf and Ligier). But if ATS are to merge Wolf, they should respect them. What is more, there must be a debt limit increase for ATS, but the money Wolf withdrew before the merger should be considered as debt, too.

Apart from my legal logic, I believe this is the right decision. Otherwise I may have get a second team (as a new user), withdraw all money possible (according to the debt limit) and join it with other team. When I (kind of) sold out cosworth, all contracts were respected, so this is the situation now, I believe.

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 25 Apr 2014, 23:43

Wolf did not merge with ATS. Wolf invested in ATS (by going in debt), and ATS renamed themselves into ATS wolf. So ATS officially 'didn't know' where the money came from. Wolf is considered as a 'sponsor' of ATS Wolf, hence why Wolf appears now in the name. Wolf Racing in itself has stopped existing. What this would mean would be that Walter Wolf could be held responsible for Wolf Racing's debts, but not the ATS Wolf team. ATS currently owes no money to nobody.
In fact, i could use the good old trick of laws, claiming that neither Ferrari or Ligier followed the right legal procedures, and thus lose their right to claim any money, on the other hand, they can return the favour and claim Wolf didn't follow the right procedures either, making the money transaction towards ATS illegal, which will mean that both Wolf and ATS will have to shut their doors at the end of the season.

But, because i know what i was doing was against the spirit of the rules, i will agree to paying all debts towards Ferrari and Ligier immediatly, even if i don't have to. And would even agree starting 1981 with a negative saldo, existing of Wolf and even Kauhsens other debts.
In legal terms, this indeed would be some kind of fraud, but that's also depending on which country the laws are in. I guess Wolf would need to follow Canadian laws? Anyway i repeatedly asked for pi314159's permission. He very well knows i've pulled some tricks before, and his decision will be the final decision.

Altough the Kojima/BRM trick is debatable whether it really was a trick, as 1) nobody else wanted BRM 2) Kojima ran into debt because of not-updated budgets, which pi314159 claimed to be updated. As a compensation, i was allowed to do that merger. I realise that the current merger is not a case of mistakes, but a slight way of cheating. But you can check: i did ask if i was even permitted to do this, and i got permission. So now it's up to pi314159 to tell me what i have to pay, and i will just do that. If that means i have to shut all 3 teams down, then so will it be. At least i tried!

@ pi314159, sorry for giving you such headeaches :lol:

But being able to handle me will turn you into a more complete person.