2013 Season Car Launch Dates

[TomWazzleshaw]

I must say the Caterham looks a bit lacking on the sponsorship front too. The GE and Dell/Intel logos are through that partnership they've had for a while now, and I think Airbus have something to do with that too don't they? They've pinched McGregor from Williams, though I don't know whether Williams actually had them as a sponsor last year. Definitely was around a couple of years back though. Interesting to see none of Tony Fernandes' companies on the car either.

From memory, Caterham signed a deal with EADS a few years back, which would explain the Airbus sponsorship. Although whether it has any relation to AirAsia's huge order for A320neos a few years back is entirely up for debate.

Tony's probably just keeping his companies separate from the team as a precaution after the mess Vijay Mallya's world down at Force India has gone through in the last few years.

[CarlosFerreira]

Tony's probably just keeping his companies separate from the team as a precaution after the mess Vijay Mallya's world down at Force India has gone through in the last few years.

I've been saying it for years: when a magnate of some description buys an F1 team, such team is a separate concern from his other business interests, and is treated as such. The different companies are treated as separate entities, which must stand on their own feet and produce profits. When one falters, it gets the chop - what you do not do is move money around from one company to the other.

[JJMonty]

Tony's probably just keeping his companies separate from the team as a precaution after the mess Vijay Mallya's world down at Force India has gone through in the last few years.

I've been saying it for years: when a magnate of some description buys an F1 team, such team is a separate concern from his other business interests, and is treated as such. The different companies are treated as separate entities, which must stand on their own feet and produce profits. When one falters, it gets the chop - what you do not do is move money around from one company to the other.

Original Lotus did the same thing and look what happened to Chapman...

[the Masked Lapwing]

It might have no sponsors but that Marussia is a beautiful car.
The Caterham... not so much.

[CarlosFerreira]

Tony's probably just keeping his companies separate from the team as a precaution after the mess Vijay Mallya's world down at Force India has gone through in the last few years.

I've been saying it for years: when a magnate of some description buys an F1 team, such team is a separate concern from his other business interests, and is treated as such. The different companies are treated as separate entities, which must stand on their own feet and produce profits. When one falters, it gets the chop - what you do not do is move money around from one company to the other.

Original Lotus did the same thing and look what happened to Chapman...

I'm not really familiar with the original Chapman-Lotus story. Care to develop?

[Londoner]

Christ, that Caterham looks slow. It's like they designed it with a ruler and some hammers, Clarkson-style.

The Marussia though, that is a thing of beauty.

[CoopsII]

Christ, that Caterham looks slow. It's like they designed it with a ruler and some hammers, Clarkson-style.

It does look like they hated making it

[eytl]

Hang on, is that Marussia an F1 car or a version of the old Dallara Indycar chassis?

And, whilst their dimensions are probably similar, how has Marussia managed to make their car look so long-wheelbase, and Caterham managed to make theirs look so short-wheelbase?

[CarlosFerreira]

And, whilst their dimensions are probably similar, how has Marussia managed to make their car look so long-wheelbase, and Caterham managed to make theirs look so short-wheelbase?

I think it partly has to do with the camera angle in the Marussia. On the other hand, the sidepods of the Caterham do look quite bulky, the car looks like it's got big shoulders. Poor aero treatment on the CT-03?

[Svenko Wankerov]

Tony's probably just keeping his companies separate from the team as a precaution after the mess Vijay Mallya's world down at Force India has gone through in the last few years.

Tony's too busy taking his successful F1 strategy of wasting his money overpaying washed-up drivers to the EPL where he can overpay washed-up footballers.

[AndreaModa]

And, whilst their dimensions are probably similar, how has Marussia managed to make their car look so long-wheelbase, and Caterham managed to make theirs look so short-wheelbase?

I think it partly has to do with the camera angle in the Marussia. On the other hand, the sidepods of the Caterham do look quite bulky, the car looks like it's got big shoulders. Poor aero treatment on the CT-03?

It's apparently only an "evolution" of the CT-01 (read: minor updates and a few tweaks). The "big update" is supposedly coming later on in the year. I can't see Caterham doing very well this year sadly.

Tony's probably just keeping his companies separate from the team as a precaution after the mess Vijay Mallya's world down at Force India has gone through in the last few years.

Tony's too busy taking his successful F1 strategy of wasting his money overpaying washed-up drivers to the EPL where he can overpay washed-up footballers.

Haha, very true!

[Shizuka]

It's apparently only an "evolution" of the CT-01 (read: minor updates and a few tweaks). The "big update" is supposedly coming later on in the year. I can't see Caterham doing very well this year sadly.

Caterham to fill the last row in qualifying in Australia.
You heard it here first...

[Dj_bereta]

Caterham and Marussia cars are so beautiful in this year.

[mario]

I must say the Caterham looks a bit lacking on the sponsorship front too. The GE and Dell/Intel logos are through that partnership they've had for a while now, and I think Airbus have something to do with that too don't they? They've pinched McGregor from Williams, though I don't know whether Williams actually had them as a sponsor last year. Definitely was around a couple of years back though. Interesting to see none of Tony Fernandes' companies on the car either.

From memory, Caterham signed a deal with EADS a few years back, which would explain the Airbus sponsorship. Although whether it has any relation to AirAsia's huge order for A320neos a few years back is entirely up for debate.

Tony's probably just keeping his companies separate from the team as a precaution after the mess Vijay Mallya's world down at Force India has gone through in the last few years.

The General Electric deal is also tied into that order for A320's, I believe (Fernandes specified GE engines for those aircraft, which is how he developed that business connection), so there is a slight blurring of the lines between Fernandes's aviation business and the Caterham team.

And, whilst their dimensions are probably similar, how has Marussia managed to make their car look so long-wheelbase, and Caterham managed to make theirs look so short-wheelbase?

I think it partly has to do with the camera angle in the Marussia. On the other hand, the sidepods of the Caterham do look quite bulky, the car looks like it's got big shoulders. Poor aero treatment on the CT-03?

Possibly - Anderson, over at the BBC, didn't seem all that impressed with the CT-03's aerodynamics (describing it as rather bulky in areas, not to mention that some parts seemed to have been poorly designed or not properly thought through). Considering that the MR02 now sports KERS, plus seems to have reasonable room for development, Caterham could be finding themselves under more pressure from Marussia than they might like if they are not planning any major upgrades until late into the season.

[Ataxia]

To me, the Marussia looks kinda...odd. Still, if it works for them then I'll be pleased.

[Svenko Wankerov]

Read that MacGregor on the Caterham is from vdG.

[JJMonty]

I'm not really familiar with the original Chapman-Lotus story. Care to develop?

Sure, though some of this is facts and other parts are conspiracy theorists. The facts were that Chapman kept Team Lotus and Lotus Cars as separate companies, that way if one was to go bust - the other wouldn't be affected.

However to help fund the racing team, Chapman used some of the profits from Lotus Cars as well as sponsorship he recived, but on top of this - he had an outside organisation to help fund the team (in particular, their drivers), called... GPC I think (Can someone clarrify that for me please). Anyway, this is where the facts start to clash with consipracy, because the organisation was setup outside of the UK in a tax haven area. The purpose of this organisation was purely to store money tax free, which could then be used to pay the drivers wages. Lotus was always a team with a relative small budget compared to competitors, so it was suprising to see that they had so many big names race for them when when F1 became more commercial - e.g. Andretti, Reutemann, Peterson etc... It is claimed that Mansell was already a Millionaire by 1981/1982 - which is impressive for a rookie! (Compare that to the pay drivers of today's era).

During this time, Lotus also ran title sponsorship from unknown companies e.g. Essex Oils. Lot's of Money coming Lotus' way, but no one knew how. Then there was the Delorean scandal where Chapman (Lotus Cars) agreed to build the car, with the help of the British government to help get people back to work and kick-start the motoring industry, anyway - £10M of the tax payer's money disappeared, but was eventaully located in the bank account of organisation located outside of the UK. Then Chapman died (though conspiracy theorists claim this was made-up and he ran away to Brazil), a court case decided that if Chapman was alive, then he would have had at least 10 years behind bars for fraud.

Long story short, Lotus had money coming in from outside sources, though it wasn't always clear where from. I guess this is a similar worry for Force India as there is speculation as to how legit the money funding their team is.

Sorry for going so far off topic! If anything I have said you guys don't agree with, please discuss further - I'm only explaining it from how I understood it

[CarlosFerreira]

I'm not really familiar with the original Chapman-Lotus story. Care to develop?

Sure, though some of this is facts and other parts are conspiracy theorists. The facts were that Chapman kept Team Lotus and Lotus Cars as separate companies, that way if one was to go bust - the other wouldn't be affected.

Yeah, that was my point. From then on it gets really dodgy, though. I'd heard of the DeLorean affair (and besides the tax money there was drugs money...).

I guess this is a similar worry for Force India as there is speculation as to how legit the money funding their team is.

Wait, what? I've never heard such a thing. I've always taken Force India to have bona fide financiers. They are a UK company, based in Silverstone, and operate under strict EU accountancy rules. I don't think dodgy money would be easily feasible these days.

[dinizintheoven]

This reminds me, in a way, of the tale of Ricardo Londoño-Bridge that this site wrote about... when "the wrong crowd" that he'd fallen in with wanted a slice of the sponsorship action.

[JJMonty]

Yeah, that was my point. From then on it gets really dodgy, though. I'd heard of the DeLorean affair (and besides the tax money there was drugs money...).

Hmmmm, Tax money wasn't Drugs money. I'd be confident of that. Chapman did dodgy dealings but not on the side of drugs (unless you are talking about Essex?). The Delorean money was funded a lot by the British government. That is what he was charged for frauding anyway, I've never heard of the Drugs money before!

Wait, what? I've never heard such a thing. I've always taken Force India to have bona fide financiers. They are a UK company, based in Silverstone, and operate under strict EU accountancy rules. I don't think dodgy money would be easily feasible these days.

The stories are similar, but instead of VJ Mallya using government money, he is using money from his other businesses - businesses that are not profitable or making a lot of money at the moment such as Kingfisher. It is suggested that the company has either a) Hidden Losses b) Has not been paying correct tax rates due to any profits being "zeroed" by Kingfishers expenses i.e. sponsorship to Force India.

It is confusing because no one seems to know what is going on with his companies, some people think there is no money at and they are all about to go bust - which if that is the case, then how is VJ able to fund Force India?

Whereas other people (governments included) think the companies are making a profit, but this is being hidden through "expenses" i.e. sponsorship to Force India. This leaves you with an Airline company that isn't making a profit and so does not need to pay tax, whilst the "income" for Force India can also avoid being taxed as Sponsorship can also be classed as a form of Capital investment.

Again, that is how I understand the situation and this is why I think it is similar to Lotus because there is a lot of money being shifted from one place to another, but no one seems to know how the money is getting there, or where it came from.

[Aerospeed]

Just saw the remaining of the 'new teams' cars for 2013. Caterham's decision to use lime green was just awful. (If you're gong to use green, do it right! Go Brit Racing Green) On the other hand, the Marussia looks absolutely stunning! Second best livery on the grid

[CarlosFerreira]

Hmmmm, Tax money wasn't Drugs money. I'd be confident of that. Chapman did dodgy dealings but not on the side of drugs (unless you are talking about Essex?). The Delorean money was funded a lot by the British government. That is what he was charged for frauding anyway, I've never heard of the Drugs money before!

John DeLorean got done for drugs smuggling, and later found not guilty, in one of the more convoluted processes I've ever heard of. Have a look at the Wikipedia page, it's epic.

Wait, what? I've never heard such a thing. I've always taken Force India to have bona fide financiers. They are a UK company, based in Silverstone, and operate under strict EU accountancy rules. I don't think dodgy money would be easily feasible these days.

The stories are similar, but instead of VJ Mallya using government money, he is using money from his other businesses - businesses that are not profitable or making a lot of money at the moment such as Kingfisher. It is suggested that the company has either a) Hidden Losses b) Has not been paying correct tax rates due to any profits being "zeroed" by Kingfishers expenses i.e. sponsorship to Force India.

It is confusing because no one seems to know what is going on with his companies, some people think there is no money at and they are all about to go bust - which if that is the case, then how is VJ able to fund Force India?

Whereas other people (governments included) think the companies are making a profit, but this is being hidden through "expenses" i.e. sponsorship to Force India. This leaves you with an Airline company that isn't making a profit and so does not need to pay tax, whilst the "income" for Force India can also avoid being taxed as Sponsorship can also be classed as a form of Capital investment.

Again, that is how I understand the situation and this is why I think it is similar to Lotus because there is a lot of money being shifted from one place to another, but no one seems to know how the money is getting there, or where it came from.

I'm sure that the Indian Government would probably prefer Mr Mallya to pay tax than invest in some hare-brained idea like buying an F1 team. But FI looks too much like a real F1 team to be money laundering affair. They're no Simtek. Not having any particular sympathy for the team (especially since they began beating Williams in the Championship), I found it hard to believe.

[JJMonty]

John DeLorean got done for drugs smuggling, and later found not guilty, in one of the more convoluted processes I've ever heard of. Have a look at the Wikipedia page, it's epic.

I thought the golden rule was to never quote from wikipedia?

Anyway, this started in 1982 - months before Chapman's death. The Delorean deal happened in 1978 - so I doubt drugs money was used, if it was - then Chapman was never charged for it.

To your other point, I would hope Force India are the real-deal and there isn't any shifty business going on. But then again, if a Champion Team like Lotus could do it for possibly 25 years, then there is nothing stopping them from doing it?

Business, politics etc... All very corupt and I hate it! Too many grey areas are produced because of it

[Salamander]

I thought the golden rule was to never quote from wikipedia?

Only if it's unsourced.

[CarlosFerreira]

To your other point, I would hope Force India are the real-deal and there isn't any shifty business going on. But then again, if a Champion Team like Lotus could do it for possibly 25 years, then there is nothing stopping them from doing it?

I don't want to come across as someone with rose tinted specs, but you have to remember that F1 in the 1970s and 1980s was, for all intents and purposes, a small distraction for a few people. It had none of the current media visibility, which is probably why we had so many rejectful, left-field projects in those years. These days if you mess up in F1, absolutely everyone will hear about it.

Apart from that, accountancy rules and corporate governance/transparency/accountability requirement are VERY different these days.

[mario]

To your other point, I would hope Force India are the real-deal and there isn't any shifty business going on. But then again, if a Champion Team like Lotus could do it for possibly 25 years, then there is nothing stopping them from doing it?

I don't want to come across as someone with rose tinted specs, but you have to remember that F1 in the 1970s and 1980s was, for all intents and purposes, a small distraction for a few people. It had none of the current media visibility, which is probably why we had so many rejectful, left-field projects in those years. These days if you mess up in F1, absolutely everyone will hear about it.

Apart from that, accountancy rules and corporate governance/transparency/accountability requirement are VERY different these days.

It'd be difficult under current UK accounting practises, although there have been some major accounting scandals in recent years involving creative accounting by UK based companies.

However, I also doubt that Force India is being used for anything illicit, although the financial situation of Force India is complicated by its relationship with United Breweries (it is true that United Breweries is said to be a major source of sponsorship income for the FI team, although it seems that the team is also borrowing fairly heavily from other parties too).

[JJMonty]

To your other point, I would hope Force India are the real-deal and there isn't any shifty business going on. But then again, if a Champion Team like Lotus could do it for possibly 25 years, then there is nothing stopping them from doing it?

I don't want to come across as someone with rose tinted specs, but you have to remember that F1 in the 1970s and 1980s was, for all intents and purposes, a small distraction for a few people. It had none of the current media visibility, which is probably why we had so many rejectful, left-field projects in those years. These days if you mess up in F1, absolutely everyone will hear about it.

Apart from that, accountancy rules and corporate governance/transparency/accountability requirement are VERY different these days.

It'd be difficult under current UK accounting practises, although there have been some major accounting scandals in recent years involving creative accounting by UK based companies.

However, I also doubt that Force India is being used for anything illicit, although the financial situation of Force India is complicated by its relationship with United Breweries (it is true that United Breweries is said to be a major source of sponsorship income for the FI team, although it seems that the team is also borrowing fairly heavily from other parties too).

@ Carlos - Oh I agree with you. F1 is completly different to back then, I wish I was alive to enjoy that era because I prefer it more. It was less politics and more about racing and innovation. My kinda style!

@ Mario - It doesn't matter how strict the rules become, there are always people who will try and get away with it and find ways of avoiding it. Agreed, much more difficult today, but not impossible. I'm from Jersey and I've heard plenty of fraud and "tax evading" stories whilst growing up, even though the law makes it more difficult to do nowadays, it still happens (UK residents should know all about Jimmy Carr and HSBC surely?). Not that I am saying Force India is one of them - but their ethics could be seen as questionable.

[DemocalypseNow]

GE huh?

Perhaps Caterham would be more successful if they installed Jack Donaghy as the team principal...

[WeirdKerr]

So only williams left now......

[TomWazzleshaw]

Wait, what? I've never heard such a thing. I've always taken Force India to have bona fide financiers. They are a UK company, based in Silverstone, and operate under strict EU accountancy rules. I don't think dodgy money would be easily feasible these days.

The stories are similar, but instead of VJ Mallya using government money, he is using money from his other businesses - businesses that are not profitable or making a lot of money at the moment such as Kingfisher. It is suggested that the company has either a) Hidden Losses b) Has not been paying correct tax rates due to any profits being "zeroed" by Kingfishers expenses i.e. sponsorship to Force India.

It is confusing because no one seems to know what is going on with his companies, some people think there is no money at and they are all about to go bust - which if that is the case, then how is VJ able to fund Force India?

Whereas other people (governments included) think the companies are making a profit, but this is being hidden through "expenses" i.e. sponsorship to Force India. This leaves you with an Airline company that isn't making a profit and so does not need to pay tax, whilst the "income" for Force India can also avoid being taxed as Sponsorship can also be classed as a form of Capital investment.

Again, that is how I understand the situation and this is why I think it is similar to Lotus because there is a lot of money being shifted from one place to another, but no one seems to know how the money is getting there, or where it came from.

Slight problem with your theory chap. During my time in India earlier this year, I discovered that Kingfisher are no more, owe somewhere to the tune of $2 billion to various institutions around the world, and there's no financial institution in the entire sub-continent that's willing to lend any money to Mallya to restart the airline (and very few willing to lend him money for anything else, presumably). That's how badly Mallya's world has gone in the last year.

[CarlosFerreira]

Slight problem with your theory chap. During my time in India earlier this year, I discovered that Kingfisher are no more, owe somewhere to the tune of $2 billion to various institutions around the world, and there's no financial institution in the entire sub-continent that's willing to lend any money to Mallya to restart the airline (and very few willing to lend him money for anything else, presumably). That's how badly Mallya's world has gone in the last year.

Really? Their website is online and allows you to book flights. How are they operating?

[JJMonty]

Wait, what? I've never heard such a thing. I've always taken Force India to have bona fide financiers. They are a UK company, based in Silverstone, and operate under strict EU accountancy rules. I don't think dodgy money would be easily feasible these days.

The stories are similar, but instead of VJ Mallya using government money, he is using money from his other businesses - businesses that are not profitable or making a lot of money at the moment such as Kingfisher. It is suggested that the company has either a) Hidden Losses b) Has not been paying correct tax rates due to any profits being "zeroed" by Kingfishers expenses i.e. sponsorship to Force India.

It is confusing because no one seems to know what is going on with his companies, some people think there is no money at and they are all about to go bust - which if that is the case, then how is VJ able to fund Force India?

Whereas other people (governments included) think the companies are making a profit, but this is being hidden through "expenses" i.e. sponsorship to Force India. This leaves you with an Airline company that isn't making a profit and so does not need to pay tax, whilst the "income" for Force India can also avoid being taxed as Sponsorship can also be classed as a form of Capital investment.

Again, that is how I understand the situation and this is why I think it is similar to Lotus because there is a lot of money being shifted from one place to another, but no one seems to know how the money is getting there, or where it came from.

Slight problem with your theory chap. During my time in India earlier this year, I discovered that Kingfisher are no more, owe somewhere to the tune of $2 billion to various institutions around the world, and there's no financial institution in the entire sub-continent that's willing to lend any money to Mallya to restart the airline (and very few willing to lend him money for anything else, presumably). That's how badly Mallya's world has gone in the last year.

Which means that theory "a" is the correct answer then! Hiding their losses and now in deep muck!

[nome66]

that Marussia looks pretty damn awesome. pleeeaaasseee make it into midfeld points by the end of this year.

[UncreativeUsername37]

that Marussia looks pretty damn awesome. pleeeaaasseee make it into midfeld points by the end of this year.

Midfield points? Yeah... no. They'll beat Caterham if they have better luck than them, just like what almost happened last year.

[Dan B]

Every time I see the new Caterham I just keep thinking it looks like one of these.


It's not even a John Deere-esque F1 car anymore; it's the knockoff of a John Deere.

[Cynon]

Caterham and Marussia cars are so beautiful in this year.

Marussia in particular. It reminds me a lot of a car Jeremy Clements ran in the NASCAR Nationwide series this year...



...which is fantastic, because, clearly, this means that reject F1 teams are getting livery ideas from reject second-tier NASCAR teams!

[TomWazzleshaw]

Slight problem with your theory chap. During my time in India earlier this year, I discovered that Kingfisher are no more, owe somewhere to the tune of $2 billion to various institutions around the world, and there's no financial institution in the entire sub-continent that's willing to lend any money to Mallya to restart the airline (and very few willing to lend him money for anything else, presumably). That's how badly Mallya's world has gone in the last year.

Really? Their website is online and allows you to book flights. How are they operating?

Beats me because the DAAC revoked their operating license last month if my memory is correct.

[CarlosFerreira]

Slight problem with your theory chap. During my time in India earlier this year, I discovered that Kingfisher are no more, owe somewhere to the tune of $2 billion to various institutions around the world, and there's no financial institution in the entire sub-continent that's willing to lend any money to Mallya to restart the airline (and very few willing to lend him money for anything else, presumably). That's how badly Mallya's world has gone in the last year.

Really? Their website is online and allows you to book flights. How are they operating?

Beats me because the DAAC revoked their operating license last month if my memory is correct.

The Internet says so. In any case, United Breweries is still going, as far as I am aware.

[Daxam_Stark]

Caterham and Marussia cars are so beautiful in this year.

Marussia in particular. It reminds me a lot of a car Jeremy Clements ran in the NASCAR Nationwide series this year...



...which is fantastic, because, clearly, this means that reject F1 teams are getting livery ideas from reject second-tier NASCAR teams!

I'd hardly call Clements's team a reject team.....

Anyway, is it just me, or is it that this year the cars get better looking the further down the grid you look?

[Phoenix]

The minnows might not be impressive at all, but their liveries are terrific, I'll give them that. Caterham in particular have done a very nice job with their metallic British Racing Green coupled with black wings. The fact they've removed that dopey yellow stripe running along the nosecone and uncluttered the livery also helps matters.