Max Mosley Was Very Right.........

Nin13 · Post by **Nin13** » 04 Nov 2009, 13:42

........ in trying to implement budget cap and cost reduction.
If I remember right before BMW and Toyota had pulled out, Dr.Mario and Howlett were just against budget cap. Plus rumors that Renault are pulling out next year. Just imagine if he had listened to them and had not done what he wanted to do. We would have had 8 teams for 2010 plus future of teams like Brawn GP, Toro Rosso in doubt due to high costs. Only Ferrari and Mclaren can spend $200-400 million every year on their car.

In next 2 years budget will come down to where Mosley wanted to be i.e. around $40 million.

Thanks to him we still have around 13 teams and now chance that Qadbak Sauber to replace outgoing Toyota and keep number of teams way above 10.
I think independent teams is the only way forward.

BTW I think reason why big manufacturers are pulling out is more to do with success in Formula 1 and to a small extent financial crisis.
Team like Force India are doing okay job with low budget than teams like Toyota, Honda and BMW can have much better budget.

I think we must appreciated Max Mosley for foreseeing the future and taking steps well in advance, and not listening to fool like Luca Di Montezemolo who was only thinking of his team when opposing budget cap.

I think, Toyota lost 2 win opportunities this year-
Bahrain- They put hard tires in 2nd stint instead of preferred soft tires. And were simply slow after that and overtaken by Button and Vettel during pits.
Spa- Car was good but at start Trulli lost his wing. He had more fuel and better pace than both Raikkonen and Fisichella.
Plus races like Brazil where they lost podium and possibly lost chance of taking 3rd in Constructor's title.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 04 Nov 2009, 13:50

Nin13 wrote:BTW I think teams like BMW, Toyota, Honda leaving is more to do with success in F1 rather than budget altogether.

Bingo. Budgets may have something to do with it but money does not buy success and THESE TEAMS DID NOT HAVE THE SUCCESS THAT THEY SOUGHT. Heck, look at Force India's budget this year and Minardi's budget in years past and see how close they got to success in relative lap times. (Belguim 2009, anyone?)

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 04 Nov 2009, 13:54

We also have him to thanlk for improving safety, he worked hard at that.

The thing is, his own stubbornness nearly eliminated his good work, when he didn't really do anything about Formula Elaborate Bluff. The bad press ANTSMSW5P brought can't have done much good to motorsports either (people in my year who wouldn't have heard of Heikki Kovalainen know all about that affair - not a good sign).

Overall, Todt is probably a more psychologically balanced creature, who we're better off with. Mosley was very perceptful about the manufacturers though, you've got to give him credit for that.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 04 Nov 2009, 19:21

I had always seen Mosley like I see all other politicians: a very clever and hard-working man who was rotten by the political power. Not in vain he was one of the founders of March.

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 04 Nov 2009, 21:02

The way I understood it, all the teams wanted cost-cutting too, they just disagreed with Max's methods and inflexibility.

lostpin · Post by **lostpin** » 04 Nov 2009, 23:42

He may be perverted, but he definitely understands his job...

LionZoo · Post by **LionZoo** » 04 Nov 2009, 23:46

fjackdaw wrote:The way I understood it, all the teams wanted cost-cutting too, they just disagreed with Max's methods and inflexibility.

And they disagreed with each other. I've defended Max quite a bit before and I'll say this: as much as it feels Max and the FIA are biased, they are certainly the most neutral and have the interest of the sport closest to their heart. All the teams are only interested in winning or being marketing exercises. If you don't trust Max (and these days Todt and the FIA), I don't see how you can trust the other teams more than him to act in the interest of the sport. I mean the FIA ultimately prospers if F1 prospers. They're not going to leave when there's a recession.

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 05 Nov 2009, 00:13

Can I be the one to point out that under Max's watch the manufacturers took F-1 by assault driving away and killing many traditional teams? F-1 by the mid 90s began to warmly welcome all of those manufacturers and in 2004 when Ford pulled the plug on Jaguar, it was made obvious to everyone that a manufacturers commitment to F-1 is fragile and very few actions were taken to effectively bring the costs down by then.

Worse, in 1992, if I am not mistaken, the top 3 teams (McLaren, Ferrari and Williams) had budgets near USD 100 MM, while midfield teams would have 1/3 of that. Nowadays, a budget of USD 100 MM will leave you at the back of the grid. So what did exactly Max do to stop that cost escalation? Did he try to shield the independent teams during that time?

It is my opinion that he failed to prevent the current situation despite his rhetoric.

Just to remember, these were the cars during the 1992 season:

McLaren-Honda
Tyrrell-Ford
Williams-Renault
Brabham-Judd
Footwork-Mugen Honda
Lotus-Ford
March-Ilmor
Jordan-Yamaha
Benetton-Ford
Dallara-Ferrari
Minardi-Lamborghini
Ligier-Renault
Ferrari
Venturi-Lamborghini
Fondmetal-Ford
Andrea Moda-Judd

How many of these constructors and engine manufacturers have folded during Max's reign?

thalion · Post by **thalion** » 05 Nov 2009, 00:30

Max basically gave F1 away to Bernie, who then decided that F1 was all about the manufacturers. How many times have we heard him basically dismiss privateer teams as irrelevant? So yes, kudos to Max for trying to fix one minor symptom of the huge, systemic problem that he created.

LionZoo · Post by **LionZoo** » 05 Nov 2009, 02:27

rffp wrote:Can I be the one to point out that under Max's watch the manufacturers took F-1 by assault driving away and killing many traditional teams? F-1 by the mid 90s began to warmly welcome all of those manufacturers and in 2004 when Ford pulled the plug on Jaguar, it was made obvious to everyone that a manufacturers commitment to F-1 is fragile and very few actions were taken to effectively bring the costs down by then.

I feel like that's an incorrect assessment. Max was trying to keep a privateer presence the entire time, but when you're back of the grid and a manufacturer shows up offering you tens of millions, you'd be hard pressed not to sell. Also, the FIA had many attempts at cost cutting and while some were jokes, quite a few were also shot down by the manufacturers. It was difficult to get cost cutting measures passed considering the hostility of the manufacturers towards them.

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 05 Nov 2009, 12:00

I remember Max used to have his own page in F1 Racing. I thought it was actually quite good. He would usually tackle controversial or popular issues too, and was really good at putting his point across.

Max and Bernie may have created the problem of high cots but at least they tried to react to it before it was too late. But Manufacturers being manufacturers, they were only thinking about short term gain. Its also why he seemed to be fighting more battles with them - manufacturers hate being told what they can and cant do

noisebox · Post by **noisebox** » 05 Nov 2009, 12:17

rffp wrote:Can I be the one to point out that under Max's watch the manufacturers took F-1 by assault driving away and killing many traditional teams? F-1 by the mid 90s began to warmly welcome all of those manufacturers and in 2004 when Ford pulled the plug on Jaguar, it was made obvious to everyone that a manufacturers commitment to F-1 is fragile and very few actions were taken to effectively bring the costs down by then.

Worse, in 1992, if I am not mistaken, the top 3 teams (McLaren, Ferrari and Williams) had budgets near USD 100 MM, while midfield teams would have 1/3 of that. Nowadays, a budget of USD 100 MM will leave you at the back of the grid. So what did exactly Max do to stop that cost escalation? Did he try to shield the independent teams during that time?

It is my opinion that he failed to prevent the current situation despite his rhetoric.

Just to remember, these were the cars during the 1992 season:

McLaren-Honda (still McLaren)
Tyrrell-Ford (now Brawn via BAR and Honda)
Williams-Renault (still Williams)
Brabham-Judd (extinct)
Footwork-Mugen Honda (extinct)
Lotus-Ford (extinct)
March-Ilmor (extinct)
Jordan-Yamaha (now Force India via Spyker and Midland)
Benetton-Ford (now Renault)
Dallara-Ferrari (extinct)
Minardi-Lamborghini (now Torro Rosso)
Ligier-Renault (extinct)
Ferrari (still Ferrari)
Venturi-Lamborghini (extinct)
Fondmetal-Ford (extinct)
Andrea Moda-Judd (extinct)

How many of these constructors and engine manufacturers have folded during Max's reign?

I think what's really happened since 1992 is that F1 has been effectively changed to a franchise sport with previously 10 and now 13 slots available to the highest bidders. That's why since 1992 only 3 new teams have survived until this year (Red Bull via Stewart and Jaguar, Toyota and BMW via Sauber). The remaining 7 2009 teams can trace routes back beyond 1992. So in the last 18 years only one independent team has entered and survived.

Most of the names thay have gone from above were not missed by Max or Bernie, and you have to say that the survival of the best teams from that lot has raised the quality of the grid and narrowed the performance gap from front to back. I don't think Max/Bernie really cared whether the 10 or 13 teams were manufacturers or privateers as long as they add to the show...

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 05 Nov 2009, 12:45

It's odd that Max has gone from being the most loathed man on the face of the planet (all right, I exaggerate slightly), to Mr Grudging-Respect (bordering on outright Mr Admiration) within a week of him not being around any more.

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 05 Nov 2009, 13:18

fjackdaw wrote:It's odd that Max has gone from being the most loathed man on the face of the planet (all right, I exaggerate slightly), to Mr Grudging-Respect (bordering on outright Mr Admiration) within a week of him not being around any more.

I actually kinda understand that, as its same that happened to me with schumacher. I despised him for nearly a decade, and then he retired and since then I've learned to respect his driving ability and accomplishments.

I think that it's because we can now judge Max a bit more neutrally as he aint in the midst of things no more.

noisebox · Post by **noisebox** » 05 Nov 2009, 13:39

fjackdaw wrote:It's odd that Max has gone from being the most loathed man on the face of the planet (all right, I exaggerate slightly), to Mr Grudging-Respect (bordering on outright Mr Admiration) within a week of him not being around any more.

I still can't stand him - he ruled by fear and intimidation, which is why ultimately he failed in getting through the measures F1 needs to survive long term.

Chewie · Post by **Chewie** » 05 Nov 2009, 14:42

fjackdaw wrote:It's odd that Max has gone from being the most loathed man on the face of the planet (all right, I exaggerate slightly), to Mr Grudging-Respect (bordering on outright Mr Admiration) within a week of him not being around any more.

speak for yourself!

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 05 Nov 2009, 16:23

Chewie wrote:
fjackdaw wrote:It's odd that Max has gone from being the most loathed man on the face of the planet (all right, I exaggerate slightly), to Mr Grudging-Respect (bordering on outright Mr Admiration) within a week of him not being around any more.

speak for yourself!

Haha - I'm not! I still feel the same way about him now as I did previously... but before this week, you wouldn't find a good thing said about him. Heck, next thing we know, there'll be people saying, "You know, Bernie actually had some pretty good ideas".

Tealy · Post by **Tealy** » 05 Nov 2009, 16:32

fjackdaw wrote:
Chewie wrote:
fjackdaw wrote:It's odd that Max has gone from being the most loathed man on the face of the planet (all right, I exaggerate slightly), to Mr Grudging-Respect (bordering on outright Mr Admiration) within a week of him not being around any more.

speak for yourself!

Haha - I'm not! I still feel the same way about him now as I did previously... but before this week, you wouldn't find a good thing said about him. Heck, next thing we know, there'll be people saying, "You know, Bernie actually had some pretty good ideas".

It's the rose tinted glasses effect. Its why I'm keeping neutral on the refuelling ban until I see it for myself. Lots of people are hailing it as a good thing but for all I know (I've never watched a season of F1 without refuelling) they may only remember the benefits and none of the drawbacks.

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 05 Nov 2009, 16:57

Tealy wrote:It's the rose tinted glasses effect. Its why I'm keeping neutral on the refuelling ban until I see it for myself. Lots of people are hailing it as a good thing but for all I know (I've never watched a season of F1 without refuelling) they may only remember the benefits and none of the drawbacks.

I started watching F-1 in 1983 when refuelling was permitted and Balestre (a guy that I will NEVER miss) banned for the next year.
Races in circuits like Imola and Montreal would be quite entertaining in the end since we had no idea who would actually see the chequered flag or who would be parking his car in the grass with no fuel. The 1985 San Marino GP was historical for the many cars that did not make it to the finish line in the dying laps.

Then in 1986 (or 87), Patrese in the Brabham would sometimes race like a bat out of hell just to stop 5 laps or more to the end without fuel.

Chewie · Post by **Chewie** » 05 Nov 2009, 17:19

fjackdaw wrote:Haha - I'm not! I still feel the same way about him now as I did previously... but before this week, you wouldn't find a good thing said about him. Heck, next thing we know, there'll be people saying, "You know, Bernie actually had some pretty good ideas".

I have to say that Bernie's idea to have testing on the Monday after a race makes perfect sense! His only good idea.

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 05 Nov 2009, 19:49

I actually think Bernie and Max do/did good and bad things in fairly equal measure. It doesn't happen on this forum so much, but I never liked the whole "poison dwarf" thing that a lot of "fans" have going. They complain on one hand that Bernie never listens to the fans, then lazily insult him with every breath in the next. It never quite clicked with fans that to be taken seriously they need not act like a vicious rabble, and that abusing and demonising someone gets them nowhere.

A similar thing with blaming Max and Bernie with everything bad that happened, including the sad death of Henry Surtees, as if somehow a guy off organising races in South Korea could have some bearing on a random tragic accident. It all ends up getting a bit hysterical and silly, and too much of an easy way out just to blame every little thing on the boss.

That said, Max and Bernie's arrogant attitude (especially that of Max) didn't do much to endear themselves or make their points being taken more seriously.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 05 Nov 2009, 19:53

rffp wrote:
Tealy wrote:It's the rose tinted glasses effect. Its why I'm keeping neutral on the refuelling ban until I see it for myself. Lots of people are hailing it as a good thing but for all I know (I've never watched a season of F1 without refuelling) they may only remember the benefits and none of the drawbacks.

I started watching F-1 in 1983 when refuelling was permitted and Balestre (a guy that I will NEVER miss) banned for the next year.
Races in circuits like Imola and Montreal would be quite entertaining in the end since we had no idea who would actually see the chequered flag or who would be parking his car in the grass with no fuel. The 1985 San Marino GP was historical for the many cars that did not make it to the finish line in the dying laps.

Then in 1986 (or 87), Patrese in the Brabham would sometimes race like a bat out of hell just to stop 5 laps or more to the end without fuel.

What I think is, this won't make too much of a positive difference. The drivers will be more careful as to avoid running out of fuel, and nothing else. It seems only a cost-cutting measure.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 05 Nov 2009, 19:54

fjackdaw wrote:I actually think Bernie and Max do/did good and bad things in fairly equal measure. It doesn't happen on this forum so much, but I never liked the whole "poison dwarf" thing that a lot of "fans" have going. They complain on one hand that Bernie never listens to the fans, then lazily insult him with every breath in the next. It never quite clicked with fans that to be taken seriously they need not act like a vicious rabble, and that abusing and demonising someone gets them nowhere.

A similar thing with blaming Max and Bernie with everything bad that happened, including the sad death of Henry Surtees, as if somehow a guy off organising races in South Korea could have some bearing on a random tragic accident. It all ends up getting a bit hysterical and silly, and too much of an easy way out just to blame every little thing on the boss.

That said, Max and Bernie's arrogant attitude (especially that of Max) didn't do much to endear themselves or make their points being taken more seriously.

Phew. Somebody talking sense at last...

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 06 Nov 2009, 10:08

noisebox wrote:McLaren-Honda (still McLaren)
Tyrrell-Ford (now Brawn via BAR and Honda)
Williams-Renault (still Williams)
Brabham-Judd (extinct)
Footwork-Mugen Honda (extinct)
Lotus-Ford (extinct)
March-Ilmor (extinct)
Jordan-Yamaha (now Force India via Spyker and Midland)
Benetton-Ford (now Renault)
Dallara-Ferrari (extinct)
Minardi-Lamborghini (now Torro Rosso)
Ligier-Renault (extinct)
Ferrari (still Ferrari)
Venturi-Lamborghini (extinct)
Fondmetal-Ford (extinct)
Andrea Moda-Judd (extinct)

Actually BMS Scuderia Italia, the entrant that used the Dallara chassis, and Ligier still exist! BMS SI competes in other categories, while Ligier is out of motorsports.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 06 Nov 2009, 14:21

rffp wrote:
noisebox wrote:McLaren-Honda (still McLaren)
Tyrrell-Ford (now Brawn via BAR and Honda)
Williams-Renault (still Williams)
Brabham-Judd (extinct)
Footwork-Mugen Honda (extinct)
Lotus-Ford (extinct)
March-Ilmor (extinct)
Jordan-Yamaha (now Force India via Spyker and Midland)
Benetton-Ford (now Renault)
Dallara-Ferrari (extinct)
Minardi-Lamborghini (now Torro Rosso)
Ligier-Renault (extinct)
Ferrari (still Ferrari)
Venturi-Lamborghini (extinct)
Fondmetal-Ford (extinct)
Andrea Moda-Judd (extinct)

Actually BMS Scuderia Italia, the entrant that used the Dallara chassis, and Ligier still exist! BMS SI competes in other categories, while Ligier is out of motorsports.

http://images.google.es/imgres?imgurl=h ... %26hl%3Des

Perhaps a not-so distant relative of their cars from 1987 to 1992 :lol:

midgrid · Post by **midgrid** » 06 Nov 2009, 14:43

rffp wrote:
noisebox wrote:McLaren-Honda (still McLaren)
Tyrrell-Ford (now Brawn via BAR and Honda)
Williams-Renault (still Williams)
Brabham-Judd (extinct)
Footwork-Mugen Honda (extinct)
Lotus-Ford (extinct)
March-Ilmor (extinct)
Jordan-Yamaha (now Force India via Spyker and Midland)
Benetton-Ford (now Renault)
Dallara-Ferrari (extinct)
Minardi-Lamborghini (now Torro Rosso)
Ligier-Renault (extinct)
Ferrari (still Ferrari)
Venturi-Lamborghini (extinct)
Fondmetal-Ford (extinct)
Andrea Moda-Judd (extinct)

Actually BMS Scuderia Italia, the entrant that used the Dallara chassis, and Ligier still exist! BMS SI competes in other categories, while Ligier is out of motorsports.

And Lotus, Dallara, Venturi, Fondmetal and Minardi still exist, in various different forms. Only Footwork and Andrea Moda are completely defunct in my opinion, as the naming rights for March and Brabham are still important.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 06 Nov 2009, 16:47

midgrid wrote:
noisebox wrote:McLaren-Honda (still McLaren)
Tyrrell-Ford (now Brawn via BAR and Honda)
Williams-Renault (still Williams)
Brabham-Judd (extinct)
Footwork-Mugen Honda (extinct)
Lotus-Ford (extinct)
March-Ilmor (extinct)
Jordan-Yamaha (now Force India via Spyker and Midland)
Benetton-Ford (now Renault)
Dallara-Ferrari (extinct)
Minardi-Lamborghini (now Torro Rosso)
Ligier-Renault (extinct)
Ferrari (still Ferrari)
Venturi-Lamborghini (extinct)
Fondmetal-Ford (extinct)
Andrea Moda-Judd (extinct)

And Lotus, Dallara, Venturi, Fondmetal and Minardi still exist, in various different forms. Only Footwork and Andrea Moda are completely defunct in my opinion, as the naming rights for March and Brabham are still important.

Add Venturi to that list. They only had a stake in Larrousse for that year and gave up at the end of the season. Adding to that the only thing connecting the Venturi Automobiles Ltd. of 1992 and 2009 is the brand name. Apart from that its now a completely different company. As far as I'm concerned, they are defunct too.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 06 Nov 2009, 18:38

midgrid wrote: Footwork completely defunct

It still exists: http://www.footwork-int.co.jp/

Valrys · Post by **Valrys** » 06 Nov 2009, 20:25

Phoenix wrote:
midgrid wrote: Footwork completely defunct

It still exists: http://www.footwork-int.co.jp/

I thought Footwork was a property company? That website doesn't look much like anything to do with property, but then again I may be confusing Footwork with Leyton House

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 06 Nov 2009, 21:17

Valrys wrote:
Phoenix wrote:
midgrid wrote: Footwork completely defunct

It still exists: http://www.footwork-int.co.jp/

I thought Footwork was a property company? That website doesn't look much like anything to do with property, but then again I may be confusing Footwork with Leyton House

No, this is indeed the same Footwork that bought into Arrows.

Valrys · Post by **Valrys** » 06 Nov 2009, 22:03

Hmm, in that case, seen as I'm wrong, and don't speka Japanese, what on earth is there website all about?

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 07 Nov 2009, 11:46

Valrys wrote:Hmm, in that case, seen as I'm wrong, and don't speka Japanese, what on earth is there website all about?

It's Footwork's website, I put it just to prove it still existed...

midgrid · Post by **midgrid** » 07 Nov 2009, 15:10

Phoenix wrote:
midgrid wrote: Footwork completely defunct

It still exists: http://www.footwork-int.co.jp/

Wow, you learn something new every day! Thanks.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 07 Nov 2009, 22:59

midgrid wrote:
Phoenix wrote:
midgrid wrote:Footwork completely defunct

It still exists: http://www.footwork-int.co.jp/

Wow, you learn something new every day! Thanks.

You're welcome

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 09 Nov 2009, 11:31

Even Günther Schmidt's ATS still exists, making wheels like they used to do before (and when) they bought into F1.
Edited to add: ATS, speaking of which, bought out Penske, which is still racing in IRL (even winning championships, if I'm not mistaken). This is actually quite interesting. I bet if you would research it, you would find almost all former F1 constructors/team owners still active as something or another.

watka · Post by **watka** » 09 Nov 2009, 13:19

Waris wrote:Even Günther Schmidt's ATS still exists, making wheels like they used to do before (and when) they bought into F1.
Edited to add: ATS, speaking of which, bought out Penske, which is still racing in IRL (even winning championships, if I'm not mistaken). This is actually quite interesting. I bet if you would research it, you would find almost all former F1 constructors/team owners still active as something or another.

I did some research on this a little while ago: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=413&p=9556&hilit=rial#p9556

ApexF1 · Post by **ApexF1** » 09 Nov 2009, 14:56

Did I just see somebody call Jean Todt "balanced"? I want to make sure I'm not either going crazy, blind, or both.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 09 Nov 2009, 18:33

ApexF1 wrote:Did I just see somebody call Jean Todt "balanced"? I want to make sure I'm not either going crazy, blind, or both.

Compare him to Max Mosley.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 09 Nov 2009, 20:13

ApexF1 wrote:Did I just see somebody call Jean Todt "balanced"? I want to make sure I'm not either going crazy, blind, or both.

The left and right sides of his body are equally disgusting.