2010 Engine Market

tristan1117 · Post by **tristan1117** » 24 Sep 2009, 19:21

With Red Bull, Williams and a lot of other teams looking for engines, I decided to start this thread.

So Far:
Brawn-Mercedes
Ferrari
Renault
Qadbak-Ferrari http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78822
and the 4 new teams using Cosworths (USF1, Campos, Manor, Lotus)
Force India-Mercedes?
Mclaren-Mercedes
Toyota
(confirmed)

Chewie · Post by **Chewie** » 24 Sep 2009, 19:47

I suspect that Lotus will get Toyota power, especially seeing as Toyota engines are in the Elise, Exige, Europa and Evora road cars.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 24 Sep 2009, 19:49

Chewie wrote:I suspect that Lotus will get Toyota power, especially seeing as Toyota engines are in the Elise, Exige, Europa and Evora road cars.

Remember that this Lotus has nothing to do with that Lotus.

Chewie · Post by **Chewie** » 24 Sep 2009, 19:50

shinji wrote:
Chewie wrote:I suspect that Lotus will get Toyota power, especially seeing as Toyota engines are in the Elise, Exige, Europa and Evora road cars.

Remember that this Lotus has nothing to do with that Lotus.

that could get confusing

Mister Fungus · Post by **Mister Fungus** » 24 Sep 2009, 20:23

shinji wrote:Remember that this Lotus has nothing to do with that Lotus.

Yes they do, Proton owns Lotus.

watka · Post by **watka** » 24 Sep 2009, 20:24

They'll use Cosworth like everyone else.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 24 Sep 2009, 20:28

They have to use Cosworth. Its in their contract with the FIA probably.
And its not a works Lotus team. Its not run out of their factory, its just loosely connected, becuase the parent company has a stake in it and has let the team have naming rights.

Chewie · Post by **Chewie** » 24 Sep 2009, 20:28

watka wrote:They'll use Cosworth like everyone else.

To start with, yes i'd agree. But that would be like Renault racing with Citroen engines; doesn't make sense for the parent company.

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 24 Sep 2009, 20:29

kostas22 wrote:And its not a works Lotus team. Its not run out of their factory

Surely there isn't a team in F1 that's run out of a road car factory anyway? Even the original Lotus was down the road at Ketteringham Hall.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 24 Sep 2009, 20:33

McLaren has its F1 and Automotive divisions in the same factory...

Ulfuls · Post by **Ulfuls** » 24 Sep 2009, 21:18

Well, with money disappearing from Renault F1 faster than Simon Gillett after next Saturday, I suddenly have a feeling that even if they manage to finish this season, they may not make it to Bahrain next March. So the question becomes, does Renault continue as an engine supplier? And if not...

Mercedes: Brawn, McLaren, Force India. If they do supply a fourth team it is unlikely to be Red Bull. Williams maybe?

Ferrari: Ferrari, Toro Rosso, Sauber. Perhaps _they_ could supply Red Bull as a fourth team?

Toyota: Toyota, possibly Williams -- presumably a Toyota would be better than a Cosworth. USF1 possibly, if the NASCAR good ol boys ever get their car together. Or maybe the Red Bulls end up here.

Which leaves

Cosworth: Manor, Campos and Lotus definitely, USF1 if (a) they can't extricate themselves, and (b) assuming they make it to next March. But I think Red Bull will end up being the losers here, and be running Cosworth power next season.

....of course, if Renault continues as an engine supplier then presumably Williams and Red Bull will end up there.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 24 Sep 2009, 21:39

Chewie wrote:But that would be like Renault racing with Citroen engines; doesn't make sense for the parent company.

Renault racing with Citroen engines would be like Ford racing with Chevrolet engines: never going to happen, because they hate each other.
I believe Renault are actually the parent company of Nissan, rather than just being a joint partnership. The PSA Group are made up of Citroen and Peugeot.

But yeah, if Renault were to continue in F1, they could concieveably switch to Nissan. Infact, as long as they beat Toyota, which shouldn't be that hard to do considering their reputation for complete and utter mediocrity, it could do them a lot of good for the road division. Remeber when Subaru's were only bought by farmers? If Nissan can kick the crap out of the biggest car manufacturer in the world, it would help their reputation no end.

Pacifics only fan · Post by **Pacifics only fan** » 24 Sep 2009, 21:49

Renault should just stay as an engine supplier, it's where they excel.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 24 Sep 2009, 22:43

Pacifics only fan wrote:Renault should just stay as an engine supplier, it's where they excel.

Tell that to Patrick Head, I'm sure he will tell you how delightful Supertec engines really are.
Ditto Christian Horner, etc etc.

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 24 Sep 2009, 23:22

Ulfuls wrote:Well, with money disappearing from Renault F1 faster than Simon Gillett after next Saturday, I suddenly have a feeling that even if they manage to finish this season, they may not make it to Bahrain next March. So the question becomes, does Renault continue as an engine supplier? And if not...

Mercedes: Brawn, McLaren, Force India. If they do supply a fourth team it is unlikely to be Red Bull. Williams maybe?

Ferrari: Ferrari, Toro Rosso, Sauber. Perhaps _they_ could supply Red Bull as a fourth team?

Toyota: Toyota, possibly Williams -- presumably a Toyota would be better than a Cosworth. USF1 possibly, if the NASCAR good ol boys ever get their car together. Or maybe the Red Bulls end up here.

Which leaves

Cosworth: Manor, Campos and Lotus definitely, USF1 if (a) they can't extricate themselves, and (b) assuming they make it to next March. But I think Red Bull will end up being the losers here, and be running Cosworth power next season.

....of course, if Renault continues as an engine supplier then presumably Williams and Red Bull will end up there.

Only three engine suppliers?! That's a very dark prospect!

kostas22 wrote:McLaren has its F1 and Automotive divisions in the same factory...

That doesn't count, because they were an F1 constructor before they became a car maker.

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 24 Sep 2009, 23:56

kostas22 wrote:
Pacifics only fan wrote:Renault should just stay as an engine supplier, it's where they excel.

Tell that to Patrick Head, I'm sure he will tell you how delightful Supertec engines really are.
Ditto Christian Horner, etc etc.

'99 Supertecs were updates of the '98 engines built by Mecachrome that were based on the '97 Renault unit. In the same period, Ferrari & Mercedes etc. etc. had two years of full factory development, don't think you can blame Renault for the Supertecs being a relatively weak.

Nitpicking for the win!!!!

jonnyeol · Post by **jonnyeol** » 25 Sep 2009, 07:07

Yep, Supertecs came close to winning Grand Prix in 1999, when they were effectively 2 years old, and were still good for middle-points scoring positions come 2000 in the backs of Benettons and Arrows. So it was a decent basic unit. Indeed, Renaults engine block in 2004 was derived from the 1999 Supertec after they dumped the wide-angle concept, so Renault were obviously doing something right all along.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 25 Sep 2009, 10:09

Summary:

Brawn - Mercedes
Red Bull - Mercedes
Ferrari (obviously)
McLaren - Mercedes
Williams - Cosworth or Renault
Renault (obviously)
Toyota (obviously too)
Force 1ndia - Mercedes
Scuderia Toro Rosso - Ferrari
USF1 - Cosworth
Campos / Dallara - Cosworth
Manor / Wirth - Cosworth
Lotus / Proton / Litespeed - Toyota or Cosworth
Qadbak / Sauber - Ferrari

That's a good field of starters, and most of all - a full field.

watka · Post by **watka** » 25 Sep 2009, 21:22

Chewie wrote:
watka wrote:They'll use Cosworth like everyone else.

To start with, yes i'd agree. But that would be like Renault racing with Citroen engines; doesn't make sense for the parent company.

You seem to be forgetting that the original Lotus team won 5 titles with the Cosworth engine.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 06 Oct 2009, 11:58

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/79301
Williams announcment imminent
Looks like Renault and Cosworth are the main choices unless some random manufacturer pops up out of nowhere

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 06 Oct 2009, 15:26

No one wanted any dealing with Renault until is was clear what the decision of the WMSC was going to be, and some time passed. That well seems to have dried up. It's going to be Kubica tomorrow, Williams soon.

Or Renault is preparing to walk out, and all hell will break loose.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 06 Oct 2009, 18:38

Here's one from the very far left of the field: McLaren-BMW. Or rather, just McLaren. Rumors have it they are interested in buying their engine-manufacturing arm, but have denied it completely.
So expect an announcement about it next week.

Ulfuls · Post by **Ulfuls** » 06 Oct 2009, 19:44

kostas22 wrote:Here's one from the very far left of the field: McLaren-BMW. Or rather, just McLaren. Rumors have it they are interested in buying their engine-manufacturing arm, but have denied it completely.
So expect an announcement about it next week.

Makes sense given McLaren's ambitions to be a Ferrari-esque global brand and manufacturer of its own engine for its own supercar (hence the rift with Mercedes). Funny though, that they'd be trading Mercedes engines from Brixworth for McLaren engines from Munich.

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 06 Oct 2009, 20:40

Ulfuls wrote:
kostas22 wrote:Here's one from the very far left of the field: McLaren-BMW. Or rather, just McLaren. Rumors have it they are interested in buying their engine-manufacturing arm, but have denied it completely.
So expect an announcement about it next week.

Makes sense given McLaren's ambitions to be a Ferrari-esque global brand and manufacturer of its own engine for its own supercar (hence the rift with Mercedes). Funny though, that they'd be trading Mercedes engines from Brixworth for McLaren engines from Munich.

The Mclaren F1 Supercar from the mid 90s has BMW power.....

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 06 Oct 2009, 20:50

WeirdKerr wrote:
Ulfuls wrote:
kostas22 wrote:Here's one from the very far left of the field: McLaren-BMW. Or rather, just McLaren. Rumors have it they are interested in buying their engine-manufacturing arm, but have denied it completely.
So expect an announcement about it next week.

Makes sense given McLaren's ambitions to be a Ferrari-esque global brand and manufacturer of its own engine for its own supercar (hence the rift with Mercedes). Funny though, that they'd be trading Mercedes engines from Brixworth for McLaren engines from Munich.

The Mclaren F1 Supercar from the mid 90s has BMW power.....

The new one has McPower. Let's not jump into conclusions, Mercedes still owns half of McLaren.

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 07 Oct 2009, 12:14

kostas22 wrote:Here's one from the very far left of the field: McLaren-BMW. Or rather, just McLaren. Rumors have it they are interested in buying their engine-manufacturing arm, but have denied it completely.
So expect an announcement about it next week.

It certainly does make sense, but the timing's wrong. I'm not sure McLaren are quite so keen to start burning bridges with Mercedes.

Yet.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 07 Oct 2009, 15:41

Jordan192 wrote:
kostas22 wrote:Here's one from the very far left of the field: McLaren-BMW. Or rather, just McLaren. Rumors have it they are interested in buying their engine-manufacturing arm, but have denied it completely.
So expect an announcement about it next week.

It certainly does make sense, but the timing's wrong. I'm not sure McLaren are quite so keen to start burning bridges with Mercedes.

Yet.

But the opposite may apply. There a bit agitated at McLaren for building the MP4-12C and releasing it at the same time as the SLS AMG. Buying shares in Brawn was clearly a sign of intent.

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 07 Oct 2009, 19:33

kostas22 wrote:But the opposite may apply. There a bit agitated at McLaren for building the MP4-12C and releasing it at the same time as the SLS AMG. Buying shares in Brawn was clearly a sign of intent.

The relationship's certainly strained, and I defintely that agree that McLaren would be making plans to bring engines in-house should the need arise (as opposed to finding another supplier). Right now, though, both sides have too much to lose - the main priority must surely be to keep their powder dry and not commit themsleves irreversibly down one particular path.

If McLaren buy an F1 engine programme right now, an almighty shitstorm would kick off. Equally, while Merc may not be happy over McLaren competing with them, Brawn still represent a substantial gamble if they're going to become the #1 works team.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 07 Oct 2009, 20:48

Jordan192 wrote:Equally, while Merc may not be happy over McLaren competing with them, Brawn still represent a substantial gamble if they're going to become the #1 works team.

McLaren were a gamble in 1995, they'd just come off one of the worst seasons they'd had since the early 80s with those Peugeot shitbox motors.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 10 Oct 2009, 18:09

Current rumours in the German language press are that RBR appear to not be getting the Mercedes engines they are craving for and that they are considering Cosworth as an alternative to Renault, because the Cosworth engine will be a re-homologated / updated one, whereas the Renault will be just the same.

Williams is in a similar situation regarding Renault and / or Cosworth. It surely would be very beneficial to Cosworth if they had their power plants running in the back of the cars of two established teams instead of just 4 rookie teams.

Python · Post by **Python** » 10 Oct 2009, 19:35

I was surprised that Williams went with Cosworths engines for next year, since the last time they had Cosworth engines Williams didn't do so well.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 10 Oct 2009, 21:12

I think they're gambling that the FIA is going to let the Cosworth be the best engine next year.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 10 Oct 2009, 21:18

I can't find a mention of any Williams-Cosworth deal on any veritable news sites (autosport).

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 11 Oct 2009, 12:17

From what I can tell, there only remaining options are Ferrari and Cosworth. Mercedes rejected them, talks with Renault appear to have come to and end with no success, and of course they are ditching Toyota, which leaves them most likely with Cosworth engines.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 11 Oct 2009, 12:21

kostas22 wrote:From what I can tell, there only remaining options are Ferrari and Cosworth. Mercedes rejected them, talks with Renault appear to have come to and end with no success, and of course they are ditching Toyota, which leaves them most likely with Cosworth engines.

Plus the fact that Williams would probably take a Life W12 over giving into Ferrari.

Nin13 · Post by **Nin13** » 11 Oct 2009, 14:04

Right now as it stands, following are confirmed
Mercedes engines- Mclaren, Force India, Brawn GP
Mercedes has made it clear they can supply 4 teams. So they will add 1 team to that list
Ferrari engines- Ferrari, Qadbak, Toro Rosso
Renault engines- Renault
Toyota engines- Toyota
Cosworth engines- Manor, Campos, USF1.

Red Bull are looking for Mercedes engines. But may end up with Renault, if deal does not take place.
Lotus- have kept all options open. So Ferrari, Renault, Toyota, Cosworth engines can all end up there.
Williams are looking to Mercedes and Renault. They dont want Toyota because they will either have to keep Nakajima or take Kobayashi with those engines.
Plus Williams want to run their flywheel KERS next year. So Renault or Mercedes may not accept that and may be left with Cosworth engines.

Cosworth V8 engines were designed for 2006 Williams, so they should be families. Earlier it was thought that their engines will be heavy less reliable compared to modern engines and will be less fuel efficient but its now believed that those engines can rev 20000- 22000 so when 18000, they may turn more reliable and more fuel efficient. But no one know till testing starts.

Chewie · Post by **Chewie** » 11 Oct 2009, 14:33

I still think that a Lotus/Toyota package will happen; just like the road going Lotus cars which all have Toyota engines.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 13 Oct 2009, 12:26

shinji wrote:I can't find a mention of any Williams-Cosworth deal on any veritable news sites (autosport).

Only the Brazilian television network, Globo is reporting it; the handful of other sources - a Dutch website, the Herald Sun and Sky Sports News - are basing their reports off the Globo one. The official annoucement that Barrichello is going to Williams - if he's going to Williams; one of his people is denying it - won't come until after the championship has been settled.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 15 Oct 2009, 00:41

And the rumour became fact:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/79418
So... Renault or Cosworth?

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 15 Oct 2009, 00:41

And the rumour became fact:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/79418
So... Renault or Cosworth?