Three-car teams

[IceG]

Vepe's idea in the customer car thread concerning scoring for constructors (only take the scores for the top two of a type) reminds me of an idea I had for three-car teams; only the top two drivers can score in a race for themselves and the team.

A team could then run two prime drivers (although obviously Ferrari wouldn't) and a rookie/second tier driver or three prime drivers, the "one star, two rookies" model doesn't pan out. Team orders would still be allowed. The three-driver teams would deliver maximum racing benefit (remember the fans) as the drivers vie with each other for the two available points positions. The teams with a two-tier system can use the rookie to block (with the rules). Teams running two drivers are not impacted as there are still ten points-paying positions. And we could have in-race testing of new parts, new drivers, etc. as the third car is not risking so much in terms of points for the team.

There is much more detail to be thought out, e.g. relative budget caps for two and three car teams (perhaps make them the same); are the scoring drivers decided by the result, nominated before quali, on the grid or after the finish (think about that!). But overall, we could see more drivers and closer racing for little increase in overall costs. The downside is the potential loss of smaller rejectable teams.

Thoughts?

[Enforcer]

I wouldn't have a problem with it personally.

But, there'd be lots of BAAWWWING about it being unfair that the top teams can run three cars and therefore still be able to have two scoring championship points if misfortune befalls one of them (or even if one of their drivers just had a bad race), whilst teams with smaller budgets who are punching above their weight and competing with the 3 car teams would only have 2 cars and if one of them explodes, tough. They'd most likely have to nominate their two points scoring cars at the start of the season and have a limited number of changes available during the season. That would, in my view, eliminate a fair amount of motivation for running the third car, unless they could bring a sponsor aboard to pay for the majority of the cost of running the car, and have it branded after the sponsor like in IndyCar.

Think customer cars would be a more attractive proposition for the top teams, since then they could recoup some of their development costs by selling earlier versions of their car rather than incurring costs by running a third car for minimal benefit.

[tommykl]

That seems good, but I'd like to add a point: why not simply exclude the third best car in the results per team and have thier eventual points redistributed, so that said car cannot be used for team orders?

[Cynon]

Three car teams inevitably lead to three-car-team orders. You would have 1 lead driver and two rolling roadblocks.

[DanielPT]

Three car teams inevitably lead to three-car-team orders. You would have 1 lead driver and two rolling roadblocks.

That is in the Ferrari case. In the McLaren case you have three cars taking off points from each other and in RBR case you have one car taking the other two out!

[IdeFan]

I think if we did have three car teams, the teams should have to nominate which of their two cars are eligible for constructors points. If Red Bull had a three car line up of Vettel, Webber and Ricciardo, with Vettel and Webber as nominated drivers, then in the event of a 1-2-3 with Riccard-Vettel-Webber the team would only score points for second and third, which reduces some of the advantage of the third car (though they have still gained advantage by preventing their rivals from scoring as many points).

- All drivers are eligible for drivers championship points, whether or not they are nominated for constructors points.

- For each Grand Prix, teams must declare their nominations before the start of Friday first practice.

- If a nominated driver pulls out before qualifying (similar to the situation with Perez in Canada this year) then his nomination may be reassigned to the replacement driver or the third driver.

- If a nominated driver pulls out during or after qualifying (similar to Glock in Japan 2009) then his nomination may not be reassigned, and the team races with only one points eligible car .

- Teams may only nominate four drivers over the course of the year, they may however use as many drivers as they like in the other car.

[DemocalypseNow]

The fact this idea has the Luca di Montezemelo seal of approval means we can expect a very long post denouncing this from the Captain within the next 24 Hours...

There is actually precedent which can be used to predict how three car teams may work out. They were a common sight from manufacturer teams in the WRC from the late 90s to early 00s. However only two cars were eligible to score points at the same round. For example Peugeot - they would have Marcus Grönholm (their de facto #1 driver), Harri Rovanperä would often be nominated for points at gravel and snow rallies, and Gilles Panizzi would be nominated for points at asphalt rallies (as a Frenchman he was obviously a sealed surface specialist).

Might F1 teams do the same? Obviously some drivers are better at some tracks than other...lets say hypothetically Renault expanded to 3 cars and had a Petrov / Grosjean / Senna lineup, perhaps Senna would replace Grosjean as points scorer at races like Korea & India as RG has no experience there.

[Klon]

The fact this idea has the Luca di Montezemelo seal of approval means we can expect a very long post denouncing this from the Captain within the next 24 Hours.

I will save us the time and already announce my agreement to whatever Captain Hammer will say if that prediction turns out true. Although the most important argument has already been made. There is just too much s*** that could be pulled off with three cars on the track.

[TomWazzleshaw]

The fact this idea has the Luca di Montezemelo seal of approval means we can expect a very long post denouncing this from the Captain within the next 24 Hours.

I will save us the time and already announce my agreement to whatever Captain Hammer will say if that prediction turns out true. Although the most important argument has already been made. There is just too much s*** that could be pulled off with three cars on the track.

Plus I would imagine there would be a considerable cost to some of the smaller teams if they decided to run the third car.

[DanielPT]

There is actually precedent which can be used to predict how three car teams may work out. They were a common sight from manufacturer teams in the WRC from the late 90s to early 00s. However only two cars were eligible to score points at the same round. For example Peugeot - they would have Marcus Grönholm (their de facto #1 driver), Harri Rovanperä would often be nominated for points at gravel and snow rallies, and Gilles Panizzi would be nominated for points at asphalt rallies (as a Frenchman he was obviously a sealed surface specialist).

Might F1 teams do the same? Obviously some drivers are better at some tracks than other...lets say hypothetically Renault expanded to 3 cars and had a Petrov / Grosjean / Senna lineup, perhaps Senna would replace Grosjean as points scorer at races like Korea & India as RG has no experience there.

Remembering that WRC three car teams makes me shiver... It may have taken a part in the car/manufacturer emptying that followed leaving WRC to be the incredible dull affair that it is today. Happily it may change in the couple two years with new rules and manufacturers. But, seriously, WRC today is pretty much a no show and only this year it became moderately exciting with Ogier refusing to follow team rules. FIA should be careful with this though. Fans might have a heart attack of too much excitement.

[Cynon]

Three car teams inevitably lead to three-car-team orders. You would have 1 lead driver and two rolling roadblocks.

That is in the Ferrari case. In the McLaren case you have three cars taking off points from each other and in RBR case you have one car taking the other two out!

McLaren's team orders are not obvious, since Button has outperformed their lead driver. Red Bull has pretty obvious team orders as well, even before Vettel locked up the title.

This is just asking for F1 to become much less interesting, unless you place bets on how many podium sweeps Red Bull will take...

[TomWazzleshaw]

This is just asking for F1 to become much less interesting, unless you place bets on how many podium sweeps Red Bull will take...

That just created a rather intriguing situation in my head:

It's 5 laps to go and Red Bull are running 1-2-3 in a race with Vettel skipping away up front. Until his engine fails. Now say that someone like Alguersuari is in the third car and has now inherited the lead but he isn't eligible for constructors points. Webber who is right behind him meanwhile, is eligible. If you were Christian Horner, what would you do?

[Shizuka]

It's 5 laps to go and Red Bull are running 1-2-3 in a race with Vettel skipping away up front. Until his engine fails. Now say that someone like Alguersuari is in the third car and has now inherited the lead but he isn't eligible for constructors points. Webber who is right behind him meanwhile, is eligible. If you were Christian Horner, what would you do?

"Let Webber pass for diii championshiip"

[DanielPT]

It's 5 laps to go and Red Bull are running 1-2-3 in a race with Vettel skipping away up front. Until his engine fails. Now say that someone like Alguersuari is in the third car and has now inherited the lead but he isn't eligible for constructors points. Webber who is right behind him meanwhile, is eligible. If you were Christian Horner, what would you do?

"Let Webber pass for diii championshiip"

That is the logical thing to do. But if I was Christian Horner I would let Mark catch The Saurus and make them fight in a free-for-all way until the inevitable collision, because, you know, it's way cooler.

[tommykl]

It's 5 laps to go and Red Bull are running 1-2-3 in a race with Vettel skipping away up front. Until his engine fails. Now say that someone like Alguersuari is in the third car and has now inherited the lead but he isn't eligible for constructors points. Webber who is right behind him meanwhile, is eligible. If you were Christian Horner, what would you do?

"Let Webber pass for diii championshiip"

That is the logical thing to do. But if I was Christian Horner I would let Mark catch The Saurus and make them fight in a free-for-all way until the inevitable collision, because, you know, it's way cooler.

I'd say he'd just egg Mark on to pass Alguersuari while shaking both his legs furiously, because, you know, there aren't any team orders at Red Bull

[mario]

This is just asking for F1 to become much less interesting, unless you place bets on how many podium sweeps Red Bull will take...

That just created a rather intriguing situation in my head:

It's 5 laps to go and Red Bull are running 1-2-3 in a race with Vettel skipping away up front. Until his engine fails. Now say that someone like Alguersuari is in the third car and has now inherited the lead but he isn't eligible for constructors points. Webber who is right behind him meanwhile, is eligible. If you were Christian Horner, what would you do?

Well, given that Red Bull have issued team orders in the past ("Mark, maintain the gap" in Silverstone, anybody?), I'd expect Horner would tell Alguersuari to move over for Mark - mainly because doing so would maximise Red Bull's chances of the Constructors title too.
Horner did, after all, justify his decision to issue team orders in Silverstone on the basis that a potential collision between his drivers would have gifted McLaren a fistful of points at a time when the Constructors title was by no means assured. If the title battle was relatively tight, as it was in 2010, then Red Bull would probably be as willing as many other teams to impose team orders, and probably be just as unsubtle about it...

[Jeroen Krautmeir]

See? This is why I support the notion of retaking the old WCC points system, whereby the best finishing car alone will score points. IMO, it'll probably avoid any team orders for the sake of the team, although the WDC is another matter.

[FullMetalJack]

I'd rather have one-car teams, but allow more teams in. So for example, if HRT is struggling for funds, they can scale down to one car.

[DemocalypseNow]

This is just asking for F1 to become much less interesting, unless you place bets on how many podium sweeps Red Bull will take...

That just created a rather intriguing situation in my head:

It's 5 laps to go and Red Bull are running 1-2-3 in a race with Vettel skipping away up front. Until his engine fails. Now say that someone like Alguersuari is in the third car and has now inherited the lead but he isn't eligible for constructors points. Webber who is right behind him meanwhile, is eligible. If you were Christian Horner, what would you do?

Doesn't this question contain its own answer?

The Saurus isn't eligible for points. Webber will score maximum WCC points then. If anything, you tell Webber to ease off a little to ensure points are scored. It will be 25 points for Red Bull whether Webber finishes 1st or 2nd.

[ADx_Wales]

Three car teams, but the Best and worst results should only count towards the constructors championship. For instance, if the theoretical Red Bull whitewash (or blue red and yellow wash) Vettel's 25 points and the Portuguese Maestro's 15 mean Red Bull will have 40 points. Webber still gets his 18 for the drivers championship, not that he'll need it.

[ADx_Wales]

I'd rather have one-car teams, but allow more teams in. So for example, if HRT is struggling for funds, they can scale down to one car.

Top 4 teams: MUST run 3 cars with at least 1 rookie (must not have completed an entire f1 season), best and worst results count towards constructors championship
5th-8th: Must run 2 cars
The rest: The option of running a second car at the start of the season (and only then), Single car team entries will have their constructor standing points DOUBLED if they finish in the top ten.

[Vepe]

I'd rather have one-car teams, but allow more teams in. So for example, if HRT is struggling for funds, they can scale down to one car.

Top 4 teams: MUST run 3 cars with at least 1 rookie (must not have completed an entire f1 season), best and worst results count towards constructors championship
5th-8th: Must run 2 cars
The rest: The option of running a second car at the start of the season (and only then), Single car team entries will have their constructor standing points DOUBLED if they finish in the top ten.

This sounds great. Although I´m not sure about doubleing the points, how about a factor of 1.5 ? This sounds even greater, if you allow single car teams to buy old cars.