2024 discussion thread
Posted: 01 Jan 2024, 20:46
It's going to take some getting used to, Sauber not being called Alfa Romeo but Strike, or Steak, or whatever it is now instead. Only to change to Audi in a few years anyway.
Grand Prix Rejects
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2024 discussion thread
Page 1 of 5
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 02 Jan 2024, 15:25
Great to see a thread on the 2024 season. I wonder why didn't you use their exact name "Stake" 
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 02 Jan 2024, 18:44
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 02 Jan 2024, 20:28
It's even more complex than that - the team name features Stake, but the chassis name is "Kick Sauber" (which is the streaming platform created by the investors behind Stake in response to Twitch having targeted Stake for running adverts that encouraged additions to gambling).
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 02 Jan 2024, 22:08
Yes, it's a bit of a mess, isn't it. Kick Strike Alfa Romeo BMW Sauber Ferrari powered by Ilmor...mario wrote: ↑02 Jan 2024, 20:28It's even more complex than that - the team name features Stake, but the chassis name is "Kick Sauber" (which is the streaming platform created by the investors behind Stake in response to Twitch having targeted Stake for running adverts that encouraged additions to gambling).
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 03 Jan 2024, 05:18
Broker Red Bull Kick Stake Alfa Romeo BMW Sauber Ferrari Petronas powered by Ilmor, concept by Mercedes-Benz, to be rebranded as Audi.
Anyway, there's 30 F1 races this season: 24 Grands Prix on Sunday and six sprints. The Chinese GP is back, a race that I lost hope of returning a while ago, but it's here. With such a packed calendar, oversaturation will be a ROTY contender yet again, but on the bright side Zhou Guanyu has a home race!
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 03 Jan 2024, 06:43
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 04 Jan 2024, 20:42
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 05 Jan 2024, 16:39
I'm curious how this saturation point works for everyone. Please tell me about it.takagi_for_the_win wrote: ↑04 Jan 2024, 20:42 Good to see that the FIA/F1 have simply decided that the concept of a saturation point simply doesn't apply to them.
For me, I can make room for about 1 sporting event per weekend, but with a few instances a year where I can squeeze in two. That works for me because the only sports I watch are F1 and the 4 golf majors. Given that, I still have many, many weekends with no sporting event that I want to watch. I'm nowhere near saturation at this point. My younger brother watches what I watch, plus premiere league and NFL football (and probably more besides). I have never heard him complain about saturation in any of the sports he follows, though he almost certainly doesn't watch every race/match/round/game.
I'm good with limiting the number of races for the mental health of the racing team employees, that's a good reason in my book. But saturation isn't the problem for me. I can watch more races, and probably will. To me a bigger problem isn't saturation in the number of races, but the dilution in the average quality of the tracks/racing.
So in a perfect world, if they could ease the burden on the employees and take us to the 24+ best tracks in the world, I'd watch every single race and be begging for more.
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 05 Jan 2024, 18:22
I try to watch all of F1 (quallys, petits prix, grands prix), plus the races only of FE, BTCC, IndyCar, and W Series/F1Academy. IndyCar currently doesn’t always fit into my schedule, and I often end up watching BTCC on catch up, skipping over most of the support races, leaving only F1 and FE that I watch live, or as close to live as I can manage.Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 16:39I'm curious how this saturation point works for everyone. Please tell me about it.takagi_for_the_win wrote: ↑04 Jan 2024, 20:42 Good to see that the FIA/F1 have simply decided that the concept of a saturation point simply doesn't apply to them.
For me, I can make room for about 1 sporting event per weekend, but with a few instances a year where I can squeeze in two. That works for me because the only sports I watch are F1 and the 4 golf majors. Given that, I still have many, many weekends with no sporting event that I want to watch. I'm nowhere near saturation at this point. My younger brother watches what I watch, plus premiere league and NFL football (and probably more besides). I have never heard him complain about saturation in any of the sports he follows, though he almost certainly doesn't watch every race/match/round/game.
I'm good with limiting the number of races for the mental health of the racing team employees, that's a good reason in my book. But saturation isn't the problem for me. I can watch more races, and probably will. To me a bigger problem isn't saturation in the number of races, but the dilution in the average quality of the tracks/racing.
So in a perfect world, if they could ease the burden on the employees and take us to the 24+ best tracks in the world, I'd watch every single race and be begging for more.
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 09 Jan 2024, 14:22
dr-baker wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 18:22I try to watch all of F1 (quallys, petits prix, grands prix), plus the races only of FE, BTCC, IndyCar, and W Series/F1Academy. IndyCar currently doesn’t always fit into my schedule, and I often end up watching BTCC on catch up, skipping over most of the support races, leaving only F1 and FE that I watch live, or as close to live as I can manage.Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑05 Jan 2024, 16:39I'm curious how this saturation point works for everyone. Please tell me about it.takagi_for_the_win wrote: ↑04 Jan 2024, 20:42 Good to see that the FIA/F1 have simply decided that the concept of a saturation point simply doesn't apply to them.
For me, I can make room for about 1 sporting event per weekend, but with a few instances a year where I can squeeze in two. That works for me because the only sports I watch are F1 and the 4 golf majors. Given that, I still have many, many weekends with no sporting event that I want to watch. I'm nowhere near saturation at this point. My younger brother watches what I watch, plus premiere league and NFL football (and probably more besides). I have never heard him complain about saturation in any of the sports he follows, though he almost certainly doesn't watch every race/match/round/game.
I'm good with limiting the number of races for the mental health of the racing team employees, that's a good reason in my book. But saturation isn't the problem for me. I can watch more races, and probably will. To me a bigger problem isn't saturation in the number of races, but the dilution in the average quality of the tracks/racing.
So in a perfect world, if they could ease the burden on the employees and take us to the 24+ best tracks in the world, I'd watch every single race and be begging for more.
I'm curious if you think of the added races as a bad thing or not. And also is there some limit to the number of races you will watch? I will say that I watch almost every qualifying and sprint race. I could do without the sprint races, but I'm fine with them, especially if it improves the experience for the fans (and doesn't exacerbate the unaffordability problem).
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 09 Jan 2024, 15:55
The whole "Kick Sauber Stake Romero" thing is mildly amusing to me. I don't watch any type of gaming streams, but my friends who do tell me that Kick is quite literally Twitch with blackjack and hookers (sports betting and nudity), so that's funny if nothing else.
Not sure how many others on here received the FOM survey that made the rounds mid-December. Since it was mostly F1TV-focused, I assume that's why I received it. Price seems assured to go up, but they claim new feeds are coming (pitwall, analytics-based, etc) 8k streaming (I just got a bloody 4k! tv!), and more graphics and data (I asked them why they didn't just bring back the old "triple box" layout). They did ask about more races. One question was whether or not I would watch a 30-race season. So they are at least discussing it.
Not sure how many others on here received the FOM survey that made the rounds mid-December. Since it was mostly F1TV-focused, I assume that's why I received it. Price seems assured to go up, but they claim new feeds are coming (pitwall, analytics-based, etc) 8k streaming (I just got a bloody 4k! tv!), and more graphics and data (I asked them why they didn't just bring back the old "triple box" layout). They did ask about more races. One question was whether or not I would watch a 30-race season. So they are at least discussing it.
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 10 Jan 2024, 06:48
It's too much. People have lives outside of their primary interest. At the moment, on a Sunday, I take a neighbour to church, we have lunch together, I take her home, I then pack and do my 75 mile weekly commute from home to Hounslow (around 2 hours once I also refill the car with petrol and do food shopping). Sunday is a busy day without any motorsport to watch. And with the amount of series that I want to keep on top of, it's hard. There is no way I want a NASCAR schedule.Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑09 Jan 2024, 14:22
I'm curious if you think of the added races as a bad thing or not. And also is there some limit to the number of races you will watch? I will say that I watch almost every qualifying and sprint race. I could do without the sprint races, but I'm fine with them, especially if it improves the experience for the fans (and doesn't exacerbate the unaffordability problem).
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 10 Jan 2024, 10:10
It's not surprising that there are so many adverts for gambling, as the reason that Kick was set up was that Twitch cracked down on gambling adverts that they felt were intentionally exploitative and directly targeted Stake as one of those guilty parties.Wallio wrote: ↑09 Jan 2024, 15:55 The whole "Kick Sauber Stake Romero" thing is mildly amusing to me. I don't watch any type of gaming streams, but my friends who do tell me that Kick is quite literally Twitch with blackjack and hookers (sports betting and nudity), so that's funny if nothing else.
Not sure how many others on here received the FOM survey that made the rounds mid-December. Since it was mostly F1TV-focused, I assume that's why I received it. Price seems assured to go up, but they claim new feeds are coming (pitwall, analytics-based, etc) 8k streaming (I just got a bloody 4k! tv!), and more graphics and data (I asked them why they didn't just bring back the old "triple box" layout). They did ask about more races. One question was whether or not I would watch a 30-race season. So they are at least discussing it.
It was set up by Stake to give them a platform to get around the bans on their adverts elsewhere - whilst other sites might aim to serve mixed content with adverts to support the service, that site exists as a platform for the adverts, with the other content existing to give a veneer of acceptability.
As for the survey, that seems to have gone under the radar, as it were, and it is interesting to hear some of those questions. The calendar length query is not surprising, since it's one of the biggest revenue streams for the sport - I expect that they might actually accept that they would only have a small percentage of people watch the full season in that case, and would instead want to see how much of the season people might want to dip into and out of to judge the average over the season.
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 10 Jan 2024, 15:50
I cannot believe that me, the board's resident grumpy old man is the one saying this, but the question now is:Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑09 Jan 2024, 14:22
And also is there some limit to the number of races you will watch?
"Is there some limit to the races you will watch live"?
I watch all of F1 practice, qualis, sprints, and races. I watch all Indycar races, most qualis, and a bit of practice. I watch as much WEC/IMSA as I can. But I can count on two hands how many I watch live. F1TV, Peacock, and Motortrend+ let me watch it whenever I have time. Now NASCAR, and NHRA both of which I can only watch live, I watch MUCH less of each year.
EDIT: It now also appears that both Simone Resta AND Guenther Steiner are out at Haas. Nothing confirmed yet, but they have been scrubbed from the team's website. Is Gene finally selling up?
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 10 Jan 2024, 17:47
With regards to Steiner, the statement from Haas is that he's been kicked out given that pretty much every single season has seen the car go backwards in competitiveness due to poor development:Wallio wrote: ↑10 Jan 2024, 15:50I cannot believe that me, the board's resident grumpy old man is the one saying this, but the question now is:Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑09 Jan 2024, 14:22
And also is there some limit to the number of races you will watch?
"Is there some limit to the races you will watch live"?
I watch all of F1 practice, qualis, sprints, and races. I watch all Indycar races, most qualis, and a bit of practice. I watch as much WEC/IMSA as I can. But I can count on two hands how many I watch live. F1TV, Peacock, and Motortrend+ let me watch it whenever I have time. Now NASCAR, and NHRA both of which I can only watch live, I watch MUCH less of each year.
EDIT: It now also appears that both Simone Resta AND Guenther Steiner are out at Haas. Nothing confirmed yet, but they have been scrubbed from the team's website. Is Gene finally selling up?
https://www.racefans.net/2024/01/10/ste ... principal/“Moving forward as an organisation it was clear we need to improve our on-track performances,” said Haas. “In appointing Ayao Komatsu as team principal we fundamentally have engineering at the heart of our management.”
Simone Resta also appears to have left the team abruptly, although the reason for that is more ambiguous. https://racingnews365.com/haas-suffer-b ... ts-f1-team
The Italian branch of the Motorsport Network have suggested that it was due to arguments over the design direction of the car between Simone and Gene Haas - the former apparently wanted a design philosophy more in line with Ferrari and the latter more in line with Red Bull - which in turn resulted in disputes over the allocation of funds for development. They suggest that Simone became fed up with those arguments, resulting in him walking out of the team.
However, there are a few other rumours kicking around - given Vasseur has been altering Ferrari's technical structure, some have wondered if Simone may be moving back to Ferrari to take up a role there (Simone was reportedly technically still a Ferrari employee and was on secondment to Haas, rather than being a Haas employee). Alternatively, some have suggested that he might be moving back to Sauber to take up a role there.
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 11 Jan 2024, 16:46
Wallio wrote: ↑10 Jan 2024, 15:50I cannot believe that me, the board's resident grumpy old man is the one saying this, but the question now is:Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑09 Jan 2024, 14:22
And also is there some limit to the number of races you will watch?
"Is there some limit to the races you will watch live"?
I watch all of F1 practice, qualis, sprints, and races. I watch all Indycar races, most qualis, and a bit of practice. I watch as much WEC/IMSA as I can. But I can count on two hands how many I watch live. F1TV, Peacock, and Motortrend+ let me watch it whenever I have time. Now NASCAR, and NHRA both of which I can only watch live, I watch MUCH less of each year.
EDIT: It now also appears that both Simone Resta AND Guenther Steiner are out at Haas. Nothing confirmed yet, but they have been scrubbed from the team's website. Is Gene finally selling up?
I kind of left the "live" question out until this point, but you're right, it's a big part of it. I've been confused by the resistance to the increase in number of the races. I get not wanting more bad races, but that's a different problem than the total number (to say nothing of overworking the trackside teams, which they need to address). The wrinkle of being able to watch on demand removes almost any problem I have with the total number of races. I can always watch. If Jim Clark were magically transported to now, I'd watch 52 races a year without complaint. (I say races, but I watch virtually every qualifying, most sprints, and many free practices too, not on your level Wallio, but quite a bit) Anyway, this is why I'm trying to understand the argument for limiting the races better. Doc gave a good explanation, I doubt I could keep up with his schedule or yours, but I'm still trying to figure out the reasoning. Thanks much!
RE Haas, Mark Hughes thinks it's likely a sale will happen. I'm hoping he's right. Give Andretti a chance I say. What do you think Andretti will be able to do with it, if they buy the Haas outfit?
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 12 Jan 2024, 10:13
For now, Gene Haas is insisting that he has no interest in selling - whether that is simply a negotiation tactic to push up the price or a genuine attitude, time will tell.Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑11 Jan 2024, 16:46 RE Haas, Mark Hughes thinks it's likely a sale will happen. I'm hoping he's right. Give Andretti a chance I say. What do you think Andretti will be able to do with it, if they buy the Haas outfit?
Haas does also present a few problems for Andretti if he wants to go down the route of building cars in house, given that Haas relies heavily on subcontractors (especially Dallara). He is probably of the mindset that, if he has to invest capital into a team, it might as well be his own effort from scratch instead of Haas's efforts.
It is possible that he would still buy them out for the entry rights, but I guess it's not his preferred course of action.
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 12 Jan 2024, 16:15
mario wrote: ↑12 Jan 2024, 10:13For now, Gene Haas is insisting that he has no interest in selling - whether that is simply a negotiation tactic to push up the price or a genuine attitude, time will tell.Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑11 Jan 2024, 16:46 RE Haas, Mark Hughes thinks it's likely a sale will happen. I'm hoping he's right. Give Andretti a chance I say. What do you think Andretti will be able to do with it, if they buy the Haas outfit?
Haas does also present a few problems for Andretti if he wants to go down the route of building cars in house, given that Haas relies heavily on subcontractors (especially Dallara). He is probably of the mindset that, if he has to invest capital into a team, it might as well be his own effort from scratch instead of Haas's efforts.
It is possible that he would still buy them out for the entry rights, but I guess it's not his preferred course of action.
I can understand why he'd want to do it from scratch, but I don't think he's going to get the chance. But, by buying Haas, he'd avoid the anti-dilution fee, he could run the team as-is for a couple seasons while building a new organization from the ground-up on a separate site. Honestly, it sounds so expensive that it scarcely seems worth doing that way, but I'd imagine it could be done.
But even just taking the existing operation and gradually forming it into what he wants would seem to be preferential to shouting from the sidelines.
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 13 Jan 2024, 22:01
Michael has claimed in the past that he did approach other teams about the possibility of buying them out, but most of them showed no interest in striking a deal with him. Sauber seems to have been the only team that did seriously entertain talks, but we know that his attempts to buy a majority stake in that team failed.Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑12 Jan 2024, 16:15I can understand why he'd want to do it from scratch, but I don't think he's going to get the chance. But, by buying Haas, he'd avoid the anti-dilution fee, he could run the team as-is for a couple seasons while building a new organization from the ground-up on a separate site. Honestly, it sounds so expensive that it scarcely seems worth doing that way, but I'd imagine it could be done.mario wrote: ↑12 Jan 2024, 10:13For now, Gene Haas is insisting that he has no interest in selling - whether that is simply a negotiation tactic to push up the price or a genuine attitude, time will tell.Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑11 Jan 2024, 16:46 RE Haas, Mark Hughes thinks it's likely a sale will happen. I'm hoping he's right. Give Andretti a chance I say. What do you think Andretti will be able to do with it, if they buy the Haas outfit?
Haas does also present a few problems for Andretti if he wants to go down the route of building cars in house, given that Haas relies heavily on subcontractors (especially Dallara). He is probably of the mindset that, if he has to invest capital into a team, it might as well be his own effort from scratch instead of Haas's efforts.
It is possible that he would still buy them out for the entry rights, but I guess it's not his preferred course of action.
But even just taking the existing operation and gradually forming it into what he wants would seem to be preferential to shouting from the sidelines.
You could view that in two ways - either the teams that he approached were demanding too much, or that there was something unattractive about Michael's offer. Either he has decided to stop pursuing that avenue, or that avenue has effectively been closed to him by the lack of interest from the teams.
Politically, there is also likely to have been pressure from the FIA for the Andretti's to set up their own team in the USA. Sulayem gave an interview recently where he made it clear that he has an ideological commitment to having "a full US team with one driver and a full China team with one driver", and the adjustments that Michael has made to his bid seem to have been designed to meet Sulayem's ideology (i.e. getting an American manufacturer on board and being more overtly nationalistic about his bid).
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 16 Jan 2024, 15:28
You've covered it Mario. I acknowledge my desires are purely what makes sense to me as a fan. I'd like a more competitive team in Haas' entry and they seem to be treading water at this point. Nobody believes they are maxing out their budget. As irrational as it might be, I'd love for FOM or the FIA, or the teams to take Gene aside and say: "this is the pinnacle of motorsport, either put in the effort or sell it to someone who will."
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 18 Jan 2024, 18:45
This is how McLaren's new Livery looks like. What do think about it?
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 18 Jan 2024, 19:59
I like it. Looks like a Wipeout colour scheme that was left to the cutting room floor.
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 18 Jan 2024, 21:34
Mind you, it could be said that this site provides many examples of teams that fell into that category too...Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑16 Jan 2024, 15:28 You've covered it Mario. I acknowledge my desires are purely what makes sense to me as a fan. I'd like a more competitive team in Haas' entry and they seem to be treading water at this point. Nobody believes they are maxing out their budget. As irrational as it might be, I'd love for FOM or the FIA, or the teams to take Gene aside and say: "this is the pinnacle of motorsport, either put in the effort or sell it to someone who will."
Maybe it's just me, but it kind of looks like the sort of livery you get when you tell Motorsport Manager to come up with a random livery.
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 19 Jan 2024, 14:07
I'll be honest, I have way more respect for the reject drivers in what obstacles they had to deal with and overcome than I have for the reject teams who provided those obstacles. I'm sure I'm not being totally fair, but there it is.
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 19 Jan 2024, 16:33
I don't think it's unfair in general but this is one of those instances where the team's bottleneck is purely management rather than regulations or funding - since they can't throw money at the problem anymore, the teams that are genuinely underperforming to their potential show up more. As you folks have said, Gene could invest in the team if he wanted to, and he clearly doesn't. So I think any frustration directed at them is more than fair.Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑19 Jan 2024, 14:07 I'll be honest, I have way more respect for the reject drivers in what obstacles they had to deal with and overcome than I have for the reject teams who provided those obstacles. I'm sure I'm not being totally fair, but there it is.
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 20 Jan 2024, 20:56
According to Bernie Ecclestone, Max would win even in a McLaren, Ferrari, or Mercedes. Do you agree with him?
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 20 Jan 2024, 23:34
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 21 Jan 2024, 09:13
I suppose it would depend on who took Max's Red Bull seat. If it were someone like Yuji Ide, then sure, Max would win. But put someone in the Red Bull like Fernando or Lewis in their prime in the Red Bull against Max in a Ferrari, McLaren or Mercedes, then Max would have a challenge.
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 21 Jan 2024, 09:19
It seems that he left it deliberately vague as to whether he thought that applied to just one race or the entire championship in those cars. That said, the interview as a whole seemed to be more about Bernie taking a dig at Mercedes, and Hamilton in particular (Bernie has developed something of a grudge against Hamilton in more recent years).Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑20 Jan 2024, 23:34If he means the odd race, maybe 1-3 races, sure, could be. If he means the championship, he’s delusional. (Caveat, this is talking about the 2023 season)
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 21 Jan 2024, 15:08
Fair point, it doesn't only depend on the car. It needs a good driver with a good car and a team of good pit crew members. At the moment, Red Bull seems to have a perfect combination which is why they have been dominating the F1 for the last few years.dr-baker wrote: ↑21 Jan 2024, 09:13I suppose it would depend on who took Max's Red Bull seat. If it were someone like Yuji Ide, then sure, Max would win. But put someone in the Red Bull like Fernando or Lewis in their prime in the Red Bull against Max in a Ferrari, McLaren or Mercedes, then Max would have a challenge.
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 21 Jan 2024, 16:23
So The Team Formerly Known As Minardi, Toro Rosso And Alpha Tauri (TTFKAMTRAAT) could have been known as Racing Bulls and is now likely to be Visa Cash App RB...
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/new-a ... /10567415/
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/new-a ... /10567415/
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 24 Jan 2024, 17:42
Guido van der God has thrown in his two cents:
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 24 Jan 2024, 18:57
Unfortunately this is the future of F1 now, I think. It’s Visa Cash App RB now and soon it’ll be the ‘YouBetchaBest NFTs Ever Grand Prix of UAE’
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 24 Jan 2024, 20:11
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 24 Jan 2024, 21:17
There is a danger of forgetting that teams could be rather unsubtle about advertising in the past either - after all, you had Yeoman Credit/Bowmaker from 1960 to 1962, which was set up for the purpose of advertising those financial service companies, or you had Lotus renaming their cars after the John Player Special tobacco company (the 76 through to 79 were officially the "John Player Special Mk. I" to "John Player Special Mk. IV" in the late 1970s).
Given you can go back to the 1970s and find organisations like Autosport criticising Lotus for being too sycophantic to JPS, perhaps it could be said that, ever since sponsorship began, so too did complaints that the commercialisation was excessive.
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 24 Jan 2024, 22:17
That's a good point Mario. The relative dumbness of the name isn't indicative of some slippery slope to oblivion, IMHO.mario wrote: ↑24 Jan 2024, 21:17There is a danger of forgetting that teams could be rather unsubtle about advertising in the past either - after all, you had Yeoman Credit/Bowmaker from 1960 to 1962, which was set up for the purpose of advertising those financial service companies, or you had Lotus renaming their cars after the John Player Special tobacco company (the 76 through to 79 were officially the "John Player Special Mk. I" to "John Player Special Mk. IV" in the late 1970s).
Given you can go back to the 1970s and find organisations like Autosport criticising Lotus for being too sycophantic to JPS, perhaps it could be said that, ever since sponsorship began, so too did complaints that the commercialisation was excessive.
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 25 Jan 2024, 07:56
I hope you’re both right but one things for sure; without even revealing the car it’s created headlines and thus advertising for the brand so it’s job done as far as that’s concerned.Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑24 Jan 2024, 22:17That's a good point Mario. The relative dumbness of the name isn't indicative of some slippery slope to oblivion, IMHO.mario wrote: ↑24 Jan 2024, 21:17There is a danger of forgetting that teams could be rather unsubtle about advertising in the past either - after all, you had Yeoman Credit/Bowmaker from 1960 to 1962, which was set up for the purpose of advertising those financial service companies, or you had Lotus renaming their cars after the John Player Special tobacco company (the 76 through to 79 were officially the "John Player Special Mk. I" to "John Player Special Mk. IV" in the late 1970s).
Given you can go back to the 1970s and find organisations like Autosport criticising Lotus for being too sycophantic to JPS, perhaps it could be said that, ever since sponsorship began, so too did complaints that the commercialisation was excessive.
Doesn’t exactly roll of the tongue though.
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 26 Jan 2024, 19:24
That hasn't stopped complaints bordering on near hysteria in some quarters though - the comments section of the Racefans website was that blend of amusing and seriously depressing about how worked up some posters got, for example.Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑24 Jan 2024, 22:17That's a good point Mario. The relative dumbness of the name isn't indicative of some slippery slope to oblivion, IMHO.mario wrote: ↑24 Jan 2024, 21:17There is a danger of forgetting that teams could be rather unsubtle about advertising in the past either - after all, you had Yeoman Credit/Bowmaker from 1960 to 1962, which was set up for the purpose of advertising those financial service companies, or you had Lotus renaming their cars after the John Player Special tobacco company (the 76 through to 79 were officially the "John Player Special Mk. I" to "John Player Special Mk. IV" in the late 1970s).
Given you can go back to the 1970s and find organisations like Autosport criticising Lotus for being too sycophantic to JPS, perhaps it could be said that, ever since sponsorship began, so too did complaints that the commercialisation was excessive.
On a more light hearted note, I've seen somebody point out something rather peculiar about the car launch dates this year - the teams are launching their cars is in almost perfect reverse championship order.
Re: 2024 discussion thread
Posted: 27 Jan 2024, 12:01
Is this worse or better than the Team Lotus/Lotus-Renault shambles from 2011?