Grand Prix Rejects

So far:

The Haas looks like a Haas

The Red Bull looks like a Red Bull

The Wiiliams looks like a Williams
So far, I don't think I'm going to have any difficulty whatsoever identifying which car belongs to which team. It's all very much familiar.

Yeah, nothing overly exciting yet. I do like how the cars look, but certainly nothing risky. I still like my Red Bull sour apple design. Keep the bull red and use shades of green reminiscent of the 1991 Jordan to fill in the rest, with some accent colors.

dr-baker wrote: ↑06 Feb 2023, 18:25So far, I don't think I'm going to have any difficulty whatsoever identifying which car belongs to which team. It's all very much familiar.

You can at least now add Williams and Sauber to the list, with Sauber's car at least looking a little different to last year.

That said, so far only Sauber have shown anything that approaches their actual 2023 car, with everyone else only carrying out a livery launch (and, in the case of Red Bull, announcing the intended tie up with Ford).

I really dislike this shedding colour to save weight. The Alfa looks like a Ferrari only half-covered with red!

Are they not allowed to paint the floors? Or are they just saving weight by not painting them (or maybe everyone just paints them black/dark gray)?

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑09 Feb 2023, 16:53 Are they not allowed to paint the floors? Or are they just saving weight by not painting them (or maybe everyone just paints them black/dark gray)?

From an examination of the regulations, I do not think there is anything which explicitly states that teams are not allowed to paint the floor of the car. There are a few regulations that do state that teams are not allowed to apply coatings which are designed to have certain textures that could create performance advantages, but otherwise there aren't a lot of regulations about how cars should be painted.

When Sauber/Alfa Romeo shook their car down last year, they did paint the floor of the car with the same temporary livery that was used on the rest of the car:


Whilst the final livery that the team used did not paint the floor, the team did put sponsor decals on the floor during the 2022 season - that's probably about as close as you might get:

I think that it's the case that teams could, if they so wanted to, paint the floor in a different colour - it's just that there often isn't really an incentive to do so. Leaving it unpainted, or painted with black paint, probably does have a minor weight advantage - additionally, painting the floor in a uniform dark colour may make it a little harder to pick out the profile of the floor.

Biggest change in livery from last year to this is the Alfa Romeo. But the only real changes are replacing white patches with dark blues/almost blacks. And Ferrari will remain predominantly red. Mercedes will likely remain predominantly silver. I imagine McLaren will go for papaya orange again. (Does McLaren keep mentioning the name of our Lord and Saviour HWNSNBM or something?)

Good strong brand identities I suppose, but it means nothing extraordinary with new liveries, nothing to get hyped up and excited about.

dr-baker wrote: ↑06 Feb 2023, 18:25 The Haas looks like a Haas

The Red Bull looks like a Red Bull

The Wiiliams looks like a Williams

The others look like the others

But... The Mercedes looks like an Andrea Moda!

tBone wrote: ↑15 Feb 2023, 10:07

dr-baker wrote: ↑06 Feb 2023, 18:25 The Haas looks like a Haas

The Red Bull looks like a Red Bull

The Wiiliams looks like a Williams

The others look like the others

But... The Mercedes looks like an Andrea Moda!

The Mercedes W14 looks like a Mercedes W11 or a Mercedes W12!

Ironic that in the inter-war period, Mercedes left the car unpainted to save weight and the car ended up silver. Now Mercedes has left the car unpainted and therefore isn't silver any more. It went from white to silver to save weight on paint, then went from silver to black for exactly the same reason.

I once read that tyres could be any colour as the rubber could have additives or dyes added to make them any colour; it is only convention that keeps them black. Is it potentially the same for carbon fibre? Could it be manufactured to be different colours? Or is it the old maxim originally ascribed to Henry Ford, "You can have any colour you like, so long as it's black"?

dr-baker wrote: ↑15 Feb 2023, 19:14

tBone wrote: ↑15 Feb 2023, 10:07

dr-baker wrote: ↑06 Feb 2023, 18:25 The Haas looks like a Haas

The Red Bull looks like a Red Bull

The Wiiliams looks like a Williams

The others look like the others

But... The Mercedes looks like an Andrea Moda!

The Mercedes W14 looks like a Mercedes W11 or a Mercedes W12!

Ironic that in the inter-war period, Mercedes left the car unpainted to save weight and the car ended up silver. Now Mercedes has left the car unpainted and therefore isn't silver any more. It went from white to silver to save weight on paint, then went from silver to black for exactly the same reason.

I once read that tyres could be any colour as the rubber could have additives or dyes added to make them any colour; it is only convention that keeps them black. Is it potentially the same for carbon fibre? Could it be manufactured to be different colours? Or is it the old maxim originally ascribed to Henry Ford, "You can have any colour you like, so long as it's black"?

I'm pretty sure that the carbon has to be black, but maybe the epoxy that binds and gives shape to the layers of carbon fiber could be dyed. I know epoxy can be dyed in woodworking applications. I'm not sure how that would work in this case. Anybody have any idea?

Is it wrong that it mildly annoys me that in this tweet, the Mercedes is facing the wrong way? Or is it just a possible autistic trait showing?

My top 3 liveries would be: McLaren, AlphaTauri and Williams.
McLaren for keeping some parts orange (best color imo) and the Google Chrome wheels.
AlphaTauri for those menacing looking 'blender knives' wheels.
Williams for the clean, sleek, french ocean blue-ish chassis color. Reminds me of the old Prost cars.

Interesting how all the model numbers added together comes to 777.

dr-baker wrote: ↑15 Feb 2023, 19:14 Ironic that in the inter-war period, Mercedes left the car unpainted to save weight and the car ended up silver. Now Mercedes has left the car unpainted and therefore isn't silver any more. It went from white to silver to save weight on paint, then went from silver to black for exactly the same reason.

I do have to pick you up on that point, because the whole "scraping paint off the car to save weight" story is strongly questioned, if not now considered to be probably untrue.

Stories of teams scraping paint off of their cars were, even in the inter-war period, quite old - there are stories going back at least as far as 1906 in the French and German press of a story about a French driver stripping paint off his car to meet the weight limit for a race in Auvergne that year.

There also appear to be photographs and contemporary reports from the Avusrennen, which was held on the 27th May - where Mercedes entered three cars, but then withdrew them from the race due to fuel pump issues - where the cars were described as being in a silver livery.

Contemporary reports from the Eifelrennen, which was on the 3rd June (i.e. after the Avusrennen) don't refer to paint being scraped off the cars - the earliest references to scraping paint from the Mercedes cars isn't until the 1950s, and the memoirs of individuals such as Neubauer is questionable (Neubauer's description of several races in that book are quite clearly wrong).

The motorsport historian Doug Nye has also seen photographs from Mercedes's archives which show the W25 as being painted in silver as early as January 1934. Furthermore, Nye also points out that he was shown a draft press release from Mercedes's archives from March 1934 where the term "silver arrow" was being used to describe the W25 - it would seem odd to call the cars that if they were still painted in white.

All in all, the more likely conclusion is that Mercedes made a conscious decision to switch the cars to a silver livery, and the paint scraping legend seems to have come about much later (possibly a consequence of Neubauer conflating an already famous story with his own racing career).

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑15 Feb 2023, 21:56 I'm pretty sure that the carbon has to be black, but maybe the epoxy that binds and gives shape to the layers of carbon fiber could be dyed. I know epoxy can be dyed in woodworking applications. I'm not sure how that would work in this case. Anybody have any idea?

Yes, it is possible to colour the epoxy to produce coloured carbon fibre - there is a company called Hypertex which does just that. https://www.hypetex.com/colours/

mario wrote: ↑19 Feb 2023, 11:07 Yes, it is possible to colour the epoxy to produce coloured carbon fibre - there is a company called Hypertex which does just that. https://www.hypetex.com/colours/

Those look very cool, the teams should be using that.

mario wrote: ↑19 Feb 2023, 11:07

dr-baker wrote: ↑15 Feb 2023, 19:14 Ironic that in the inter-war period, Mercedes left the car unpainted to save weight and the car ended up silver. Now Mercedes has left the car unpainted and therefore isn't silver any more. It went from white to silver to save weight on paint, then went from silver to black for exactly the same reason.

I do have to pick you up on that point, because the whole "scraping paint off the car to save weight" story is strongly questioned, if not now considered to be probably untrue.

Stories of teams scraping paint off of their cars were, even in the inter-war period, quite old - there are stories going back at least as far as 1906 in the French and German press of a story about a French driver stripping paint off his car to meet the weight limit for a race in Auvergne that year.

There also appear to be photographs and contemporary reports from the Avusrennen, which was held on the 27th May - where Mercedes entered three cars, but then withdrew them from the race due to fuel pump issues - where the cars were described as being in a silver livery.

Contemporary reports from the Eifelrennen, which was on the 3rd June (i.e. after the Avusrennen) don't refer to paint being scraped off the cars - the earliest references to scraping paint from the Mercedes cars isn't until the 1950s, and the memoirs of individuals such as Neubauer is questionable (Neubauer's description of several races in that book are quite clearly wrong).

The motorsport historian Doug Nye has also seen photographs from Mercedes's archives which show the W25 as being painted in silver as early as January 1934. Furthermore, Nye also points out that he was shown a draft press release from Mercedes's archives from March 1934 where the term "silver arrow" was being used to describe the W25 - it would seem odd to call the cars that if they were still painted in white.

All in all, the more likely conclusion is that Mercedes made a conscious decision to switch the cars to a silver livery, and the paint scraping legend seems to have come about much later (possibly a consequence of Neubauer conflating an already famous story with his own racing career).

Thanks Mario. I've learnt something new there, and gives me something to go away to do more reading more about. Always good to have historical assumptions challenged.

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑19 Feb 2023, 19:49

mario wrote: ↑19 Feb 2023, 11:07 Yes, it is possible to colour the epoxy to produce coloured carbon fibre - there is a company called Hypertex which does just that. https://www.hypetex.com/colours/

Those look very cool, the teams should be using that.

Agreed!
I like seeing all the cars from this angle. Gotta make up my mind which I prefer from this perspective. Which nose would you pick?

dr-baker wrote: ↑19 Feb 2023, 21:10

I like seeing all the cars from this angle. Gotta make up my mind which I prefer from this perspective. Which nose would you pick?

From that angle, Aston Martin's livery looks the most appealing to me.

dr-baker wrote: ↑19 Feb 2023, 21:10Thanks Mario. I've learnt something new there, and gives me something to go away to do more reading more about. Always good to have historical assumptions challenged.

It is perhaps a situation where the Italian phrase "se non è vero, è ben trovato" applies - it's one of those myths of motorsport which certainly makes for a good story.

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑19 Feb 2023, 19:49

mario wrote: ↑19 Feb 2023, 11:07 Yes, it is possible to colour the epoxy to produce coloured carbon fibre - there is a company called Hypertex which does just that. https://www.hypetex.com/colours/

Those look very cool, the teams should be using that.

I guess the issue would be if that same company has patented the process, which might then result in licencing fees that the teams are not necessarily happy to pay.

On a more significant note, Aston Martin has announced that Stroll is now going to miss the pre-season tests due to a cycling accident: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/64709945

Whilst they say that he has had "minor injuries", they haven't yet released any details of what exactly those injuries are. They've also mentioned undertaking daily monitoring of his injuries - given we're only two weeks away from the first race, it does suggest a bit of nervousness about whether he'd be fit in time.

It's therefore possible that either Vandoorne or Drugovich may be called up for testing duties - although you'd expect Alonso might take the majority of that work, not least given he'd recently complained about the lack of testing - and, if Stroll doesn't recover in time, maybe even the first race of the season.

I do find it interesting that in the midst of claiming that F1 does not need an American team, because they already have one, Haas has ditched the American Flag from its cars. It makes perfect sense, but the timing is odd.

Also, I do not get sites like Autosport and The Race sh***ing all over the Red Bull launch for not showing the actual car. Did they not realize the whole point of that event was to announce Ford? Like wtf?

I'm curious to see what Aston Martin does, because if Craig Scarborough is correct with his drawings, their sidepods bring new meaning to the word "radical".