2017 "Cathedral of Speed" Italian Grand Prix

Post by **Ataxia** » 31 Aug 2017, 19:02

I may or may not have forgotten that there's a race on this weekend. A summer break followed by a back-to-back run kinda threw me, so apologies! I know how much you adore this wildly inaccurate descriptions of countries.

But, I digress. It's the Italian Grand Prix this weekend, and the grandstands at Monza are historically bedecked in Rossa Corsa in deference to the Ferrari team - or in other words, more red than an elevator at the Overlook Hotel.

The grandstands at Monza, 2016.

Italy is a world-renowned boot-shaped country - in fact, the first high-heeled boots were invented when Professor S. Hughes stared at a globe and thought "this would look perfect on my wife's foot". The sport of football was also invented when Prof. Hughes returned to his globe-based musings and thought "yes, this would make for an entertaining past-time". God knows what he thought when he got to Sardinia.

Is this one of them satires? I'm not smart enough to know.

The home to many famous culinary exports, Italy is world-renowned for its pasta, pizza and gelato. However, if you ask for Dolmio they'll probably punch you in the face. Pesto was also invented in Italy, and it's the best thing ever so shut up it's amazing.

bae

In motorsport, Italy has a rich and varied history. Formula 1 played host to successful, luxurious marques such as Ferrari, Alfa Romeo and Maserati, and affluency-challenged teams such as Minardi, Forti, Osella, Coloni, Life, Scuderia Italia, Eurobrun and Fondmetal...there wasn't ever really a middle-ground team, was there?

And that's Lavaggi getting into the post there. The Minardi M195B was a beautiful piece of kit and I dare anyone else to tell me otherwise.

Currently, Italy fields no F1 drivers, although Antonio Giovinazzi took part in a pair of races at the start of the season when Pascal Wehrlein had a hairline...fracture. For the purposes of that joke, I hope it was that. God, that sounds awful. I'm horrible. Gio - as he's known to everyone who can't get over the fact that his name ends with "nazzi" - had a scintillating debut with Sauber, before dropping it in the same place at Shanghai, earning him the nickname "bull in a China shop".

Am I the only one who thinks Gio looks a little bit like Harry Kane?

However, Ferrari's the team that all the locals root for. After years of hating Sebastian Vettel, his move to Ferrari prompted the fans to make a bigger U-turn than Theresa May on...well, most parliamentary issues, really. (Again with the politics...)

Monza often produces the shortest races on the calendar and, in recent years at least, haven't really yielded anything interesting. I remember two Saubers battling once in 2015. That's genuinely about it.

So, there's your whistle-stop tour of Italia, not to be confused with Bella Italia or italics. Prego.

This Could Be You · Post by **This Could Be You** » 31 Aug 2017, 20:15

The post's all very good except for one thing: how did you forget Andrea Moda in the Italian team list!

I mean, they were more of an example of Murphy's Law than any kind of team in all honesty, but Life's on there too...

Post by **Ataxia** » 31 Aug 2017, 21:08

This Could Be You wrote:The post's all very good except for one thing: how did you forget Andrea Moda in the Italian team list!

I mean, they were more of an example of Murphy's Law than any kind of team in all honesty, but Life's on there too...

I tried to include them, but they got stuck in a French blockade and couldn't make it here in time.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 31 Aug 2017, 22:06

Ataxia wrote:
This Could Be You wrote:The post's all very good except for one thing: how did you forget Andrea Moda in the Italian team list!

I mean, they were more of an example of Murphy's Law than any kind of team in all honesty, but Life's on there too...

I tried to include them, but they got stuck in a French blockade and couldn't make it here in time.

You mean they failed to qualify in time to make your list? They didn't submit the right paperwork to the right people?

Post by **Nuppiz** » 31 Aug 2017, 22:15

dr-baker wrote:
Ataxia wrote:
This Could Be You wrote:The post's all very good except for one thing: how did you forget Andrea Moda in the Italian team list!

I mean, they were more of an example of Murphy's Law than any kind of team in all honesty, but Life's on there too...

I tried to include them, but they got stuck in a French blockade and couldn't make it here in time.

You mean they failed to qualify in time to make your list? They didn't submit the right paperwork to the right people?

Perhaps they failed to submit the entry money necessary for inclusion in this illustrous group of teams.

johnston21 · Post by **johnston21** » 01 Sep 2017, 02:11

You made me laugh out-loud.

Thank you,

...more red than an elevator at the Overlook Hotel.

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 01 Sep 2017, 05:26

I was at the circuit yesterday and it was quite amazing.

Before heading to Monza, I visited the Alfa Romeo Museum. They had lots of old racing cars there, including the 158 from 1950 and a Brabham from 1977.

At the circuit, I found the 1987 Lotus and the 1967 Honda on display.

The Pit Lane walk started at 4PM. It was pretty packed, but while waiting for the Pit Lane to open I got to see the 2014 Ferrari.

During the Pit Lane walk, I focused on the smaller Teams where it was easier to get close. Got autographs from Ericsson, Palmer and Vandoorne, caught a Sauber employee spying on Renault and got ignored by Sergio Perez twice.

Afterwards I wanted to see the old banked corners. It was a rather long walk, but definitely worth it.

I'll post some pictures once I'm back home.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 01 Sep 2017, 09:36

pi314159 wrote:I was at the circuit yesterday and it was quite amazing.

Before heading to Monza, I visited the Alfa Romeo Museum. They had lots of old racing cars there, including the 158 from 1950 and a Brabham from 1977.

At the circuit, I found the 1987 Lotus and the 1967 Honda on display.

The Pit Lane walk started at 4PM. It was pretty packed, but while waiting for the Pit Lane to open I got to see the 2014 Ferrari.

During the Pit Lane walk, I focused on the smaller Teams where it was easier to get close. Got autographs from Ericsson, Palmer and Vandoorne, caught a Sauber employee spying on Renault and got ignored by Sergio Perez twice.

Afterwards I wanted to see the old banked corners. It was a rather long walk, but definitely worth it.

I'll post some pictures once I'm back home.

I was at Monza in 2011. A great experience. Enjoy it!

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 01 Sep 2017, 13:36

Ataxia wrote:In motorsport, Italy has a rich and varied history. Formula 1 played host to successful, luxurious marques such as Ferrari, Alfa Romeo and Maserati, and affluency-challenged teams such as Minardi, Forti, Osella, Coloni, Life, Scuderia Italia, Eurobrun and Fondmetal...there wasn't ever really a middle-ground team, was there?

Scuderia Italia did at least score a couple of third places amongst the odd other points finish and some DN(P)Qs, and if there had been points all the way down to tenth or even just eighth back in those days, they'd most likely be judged as more successful than Toro Rosso, who could reasonably be called that missing middle-ground team. For instance, Scud's results in 1989 would yield 67 points under the points-to-tenth scheme, equal to Toro Rosso's best season in 2015 - and in 1992 they'd have a decent return of 49 points, a total surpassed by Toro Rosso only in 2015 and 2016. Hardly world-beating, but not too shabby either.

For the record, under the points-to-tenth system, Osella would have scored 71 points in 11 seasons, and Forti, Coloni, Life, EuroBrun, Fondmetal and Andrea Moda would only have managed 18 between them throughout their entire existence, 12 of them scored by Forti, 11 of those with the otherwise-hopeless FG01 (10 in 1995, 1 in 1996).

Also also under that system, Osella outscored the once-mighty Alfa Romeo in 1985.

Post by **mario** » 02 Sep 2017, 07:42

pi314159 wrote:I was at the circuit yesterday and it was quite amazing.

Before heading to Monza, I visited the Alfa Romeo Museum. They had lots of old racing cars there, including the 158 from 1950 and a Brabham from 1977.

At the circuit, I found the 1987 Lotus and the 1967 Honda on display.

The Pit Lane walk started at 4PM. It was pretty packed, but while waiting for the Pit Lane to open I got to see the 2014 Ferrari.

During the Pit Lane walk, I focused on the smaller Teams where it was easier to get close. Got autographs from Ericsson, Palmer and Vandoorne, caught a Sauber employee spying on Renault and got ignored by Sergio Perez twice.

Afterwards I wanted to see the old banked corners. It was a rather long walk, but definitely worth it.

I'll post some pictures once I'm back home.

Speaking of that Lotus, is it possible that it belongs to Zak Brown? I recall that he does own a Lotus race car, but I'm not sure if it is the 97T or the 98T which he owns.

Post by **Miguel98** » 02 Sep 2017, 10:44

Free Practice was run under wet conditions today. Fairly wet, to add. Only some cars turned laps, with the Williams topping the session. There is a chance that rain is slowing down today - GP3 FP3 was already cancelled and the Porsche Supercup event delayed - for qualifying, but there is a chance that we'll get either a wet qualifying or a fairly mixed conditions qualiying.

The Chicane · Post by **The Chicane** » 02 Sep 2017, 11:42

Their are rumours around the Monza paddock that Sauber might be ready to announce a deal with Alfa Romeo for next year.

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 02 Sep 2017, 12:12

It's on days like this when McLaren's continual grid penalties become so frustrating, because you think that on a level playing field Alonso could have a stellar day. But I suppose the rules are the same for everyone, and it's their own damn fault for throwing their lot in with Honda.

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 02 Sep 2017, 12:14

What is going on here? There's blazing hot sun in Nottingham that'd scorch my face off in a few minutes if I went outside, and it's battering down with rain in Monza. Surely it should be the other way round?

Worse still, I've got to sort the roof space out this weekend. It'll be like a sauna and I'll boil alive.

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 02 Sep 2017, 15:42

Nice to see a few random elements near the front. I'd rather have the wet weather tomorrow, though, which sadly isn't predicted.

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 02 Sep 2017, 16:00

It was wet, cold and miserable at Monza today, and I went home early during the Q1 delay. The only positive today was that I' now the proud owner of a Caterham umbrella.

Post by **mario** » 02 Sep 2017, 16:03

Paul Hayes wrote:Nice to see a few random elements near the front. I'd rather have the wet weather tomorrow, though, which sadly isn't predicted.

I tell you what, Stroll put in a pretty impressive performance given that is the first time that he has driven that car in wet conditions - and with the penalties for Red Bull, it means he'll be starting on the front row (which I think makes him the youngest front row starter).

The big surprise is how badly Ferrari performed in Q3, especially Vettel falling back to 8th on the grid - both him and Kimi were really struggling with braking instability, which is normally an area where Ferrari have been fairly solid. It's the last thing that Ferrari would have wanted, even if they will move up thanks to the Red Bull grid penalties - a poor performance in front of their home fans, not to mention have the inevitable risks that come with starting lower down in the pack, and the prospect of seeing Vettel lose the WDC lead at their home race.

Aislabie · Post by **Aislabie** » 02 Sep 2017, 16:15

So let's get this straight - the grid is as follows:

Code: Select all

Hamilton
            Stroll
Ocon
            Bottas
Raikkonen
            Vettel
Massa
            Vandoorne
Perez
            Kvyat
Magnussen
            Ericsson
Wehrlein
            Grosjean
Hulkenberg
            Sainz
Palmer
            Verstappen
Ricciardo
            Alonso

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 02 Sep 2017, 18:47

Falls under "Well... that happened."

With any luck Stroll will revert to his first season in European F3 and do a demolition job on Lewis into turn 1.

More likely though he'll have a nice mature drive into some very handy points. Ordinarily I'd say "yay", but well, I don't like Lewis very much.

Post by **mario** » 02 Sep 2017, 19:14

Enforcer wrote:Falls under "Well... that happened."

With any luck Stroll will revert to his first season in European F3 and do a demolition job on Lewis into turn 1.

More likely though he'll have a nice mature drive into some very handy points. Ordinarily I'd say "yay", but well, I don't like Lewis very much.

I'd rather that didn't happen - with the extremely tight battle that is taking place in the midfield pack, losing a sizeable number of extremely hard won points for the team could potentially result in them sliding several places down in the WCC by the end of the season.

That, in turn, could cost the team quite a sizeable chunk of money - in the order of $20 million - which would potentially significantly screw over the team: frankly, I don't want to see that happening to Williams.

Post by **Miguel98** » 02 Sep 2017, 20:08

So, apparently, Williams have no clue how their car had pace in the wet conditions aronud here. Considering past year experiences - where the Williams really strugged for mechanical grip, where even this year it was case, it was a really surprising performance. Anyone have a clue why would Williams find sudden mechanical grip?

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 02 Sep 2017, 20:38

Miguel98 wrote:So, apparently, Williams have no clue how their car had pace in the wet conditions aronud here. Considering past year experiences - where the Williams really strugged for mechanical grip, where even this year it was case, it was a really surprising performance. Anyone have a clue why would Williams find sudden mechanical grip?

ummmm the new tarmac?

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 02 Sep 2017, 20:55

Missed watching qualifying - I was flying out to Tenerife for a week's holiday with my sister. Looking forward to seeing it at some point. I would personally love to see the Lewis, Stroll and Ocon hold position to the chequered flag, as unlikely as that might be. Unless Bernd Maylander leads the whole race...

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 02 Sep 2017, 22:11

mario wrote:
pi314159 wrote:At the circuit, I found the 1987 Lotus and the 1967 Honda on display.

Speaking of that Lotus, is it possible that it belongs to Zak Brown? I recall that he does own a Lotus race car, but I'm not sure if it is the 97T or the 98T which he owns.

It was at Spa as well in the F1 village so it must be going round with everything else. Definitely a 97T, and in full Camel livery too. Looked lovely!

Post by **mario** » 03 Sep 2017, 08:00

Miguel98 wrote:So, apparently, Williams have no clue how their car had pace in the wet conditions aronud here. Considering past year experiences - where the Williams really strugged for mechanical grip, where even this year it was case, it was a really surprising performance. Anyone have a clue why would Williams find sudden mechanical grip?

It's hard to tell - perhaps, with some drivers struggling to bring their tyres up to temperature, Williams's suspension layout was such that it helped with the warm up of the tyres?

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 03 Sep 2017, 10:15

So I'm looking at the grid for the race on Forix, which always explains how many penalty places each penalised driver has been given, and why.

How is Rrrrrrmmmnnnn Grrrrrjjjjjjnnnn still at the back of the grid despite getting a legitimate time in Q1 before he crashed out, with no penalties (according to Forix at least)? Verstappen, Ricciardo, Vandoorne and Alonso all have an entire grid length's worth of penalties (or more); Hülkenberg (was 12th), Sainz (behind Hülk) and Palmer (dropped in Q1) all have at least 10 places to drop; why are these seven drivers not in the last seven slots on the grid?

Have I been missing something for however many years it is now?

Post by **Miguel98** » 03 Sep 2017, 10:19

dinizintheoven wrote:So I'm looking at the grid for the race on Forix, which always explains how many penalty places each penalised driver has been given, and why.

How is Rrrrrrmmmnnnn Grrrrrjjjjjjnnnn still at the back of the grid despite getting a legitimate time in Q1 before he crashed out, with no penalties (according to Forix at least)? Verstappen, Ricciardo, Vandoorne and Alonso all have an entire grid length's worth of penalties (or more); Hülkenberg (was 12th), Sainz (behind Hülk) and Palmer (dropped in Q1) all have at least 10 places to drop; why are these seven drivers not in the last seven slots on the grid?

Have I been missing something for however many years it is now?

Grosjean missed the 107% cut-off time, so he had to be allowed to start the race by the stewards. Therefore, he starts last.

WaffleCat · Post by **WaffleCat** » 03 Sep 2017, 10:21

Well, simply put, this grid penalty system is a joke now.

I don't think there should be a system to penalise those with technical gremlins, just whatever problems they already have is enough...

Post by **Londoner** » 03 Sep 2017, 10:33

Now Perez cops a 5-place penalty for a gearbox change, meaning almost 50% of the grid has a penalty of some sort this weekend. Yeah, I got nothing. :facepalm:

Wouldn't be surprised if the penalty system gets scrapped for 2018, I know Ross Brawn said it probably wouldn't be changed until 2021 but it's completely blown up in the FIA's face this weekend. :facepalm:

EDIT: 5 place penalty for Grosjean changing his gearbox, dropping him from 20th to, erm, 20th. This is a bathplug farce.

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 03 Sep 2017, 12:10

And Mercedes-Benz benefit event confirmed.

Coffee anyone?

Fetzie · Post by **Fetzie** » 03 Sep 2017, 13:39

Miguel98 wrote:
dinizintheoven wrote:So I'm looking at the grid for the race on Forix, which always explains how many penalty places each penalised driver has been given, and why.

How is Rrrrrrmmmnnnn Grrrrrjjjjjjnnnn still at the back of the grid despite getting a legitimate time in Q1 before he crashed out, with no penalties (according to Forix at least)? Verstappen, Ricciardo, Vandoorne and Alonso all have an entire grid length's worth of penalties (or more); Hülkenberg (was 12th), Sainz (behind Hülk) and Palmer (dropped in Q1) all have at least 10 places to drop; why are these seven drivers not in the last seven slots on the grid?

Have I been missing something for however many years it is now?

Grosjean missed the 107% cut-off time, so he had to be allowed to start the race by the stewards. Therefore, he starts last.

Have the stewards ever told a driver they can't race because they missed the 107% rule?

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 03 Sep 2017, 13:57

Fetzie wrote:
Miguel98 wrote:
dinizintheoven wrote:So I'm looking at the grid for the race on Forix, which always explains how many penalty places each penalised driver has been given, and why.

How is Rrrrrrmmmnnnn Grrrrrjjjjjjnnnn still at the back of the grid despite getting a legitimate time in Q1 before he crashed out, with no penalties (according to Forix at least)? Verstappen, Ricciardo, Vandoorne and Alonso all have an entire grid length's worth of penalties (or more); Hülkenberg (was 12th), Sainz (behind Hülk) and Palmer (dropped in Q1) all have at least 10 places to drop; why are these seven drivers not in the last seven slots on the grid?

Have I been missing something for however many years it is now?

Grosjean missed the 107% cut-off time, so he had to be allowed to start the race by the stewards. Therefore, he starts last.

Have the stewards ever told a driver they can't race because they missed the 107% rule?

The 107% rule exists to stop a totally uncompetitive car from competing and being a mobile chicane for the leaders, not to stop someone from competing because of mechanical problems or mistiming runs in changeable weather. So a car normally well within 107%, and was within 107% consistently through practice will always be let through if they have some sort of problem in qualy that prevents them from setting a representative time.

Last time someone DNQd for being outside 107% was Australia 2012.

Post by **mario** » 03 Sep 2017, 14:40

East Londoner wrote:Now Perez cops a 5-place penalty for a gearbox change, meaning almost 50% of the grid has a penalty of some sort this weekend. Yeah, I got nothing.

Wouldn't be surprised if the penalty system gets scrapped for 2018, I know Ross Brawn said it probably wouldn't be changed until 2021 but it's completely blown up in the FIA's face this weekend.

EDIT: 5 place penalty for Grosjean changing his gearbox, dropping him from 20th to, erm, 20th. This is a bathplug farce.

In the end, I believe that Hamilton was the only driver who stayed in the same place that he qualified in. Todt did hint before the race that they would be looking at it, but it has to be said that some of the suggestions that have been put forward, such as docking points from the team in the WCC, would have more of an impact on a smaller team than a larger one.

andrew · Post by **andrew** » 03 Sep 2017, 14:51

mario wrote:
East Londoner wrote:Now Perez cops a 5-place penalty for a gearbox change, meaning almost 50% of the grid has a penalty of some sort this weekend. Yeah, I got nothing.

Wouldn't be surprised if the penalty system gets scrapped for 2018, I know Ross Brawn said it probably wouldn't be changed until 2021 but it's completely blown up in the FIA's face this weekend.

EDIT: 5 place penalty for Grosjean changing his gearbox, dropping him from 20th to, erm, 20th. This is a bathplug farce.

In the end, I believe that Hamilton was the only driver who stayed in the same place that he qualified in. Todt did hint before the race that they would be looking at it, but it has to be said that some of the suggestions that have been put forward, such as docking points from the team in the WCC, would have more of an impact on a smaller team than a larger one.

I think Grosjean Sainz and Palmer also started where they qualified.

Post by **mario** » 03 Sep 2017, 14:55

andrew wrote:
mario wrote:
East Londoner wrote:Now Perez cops a 5-place penalty for a gearbox change, meaning almost 50% of the grid has a penalty of some sort this weekend. Yeah, I got nothing.

Wouldn't be surprised if the penalty system gets scrapped for 2018, I know Ross Brawn said it probably wouldn't be changed until 2021 but it's completely blown up in the FIA's face this weekend.

EDIT: 5 place penalty for Grosjean changing his gearbox, dropping him from 20th to, erm, 20th. This is a bathplug farce.

In the end, I believe that Hamilton was the only driver who stayed in the same place that he qualified in. Todt did hint before the race that they would be looking at it, but it has to be said that some of the suggestions that have been put forward, such as docking points from the team in the WCC, would have more of an impact on a smaller team than a larger one.

I think Grosjean Sainz and Palmer also started where they qualified.

True, I stand corrected (I misread the order in which the penalties had been applied, as initially it looked as if Sainz had moved up a place).

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 03 Sep 2017, 17:04

Was the Lamborghini "course car" at the back of the grid meant to have been there? I thought only the medical car started the first lap behind the grid.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 03 Sep 2017, 17:25

WeirdKerr wrote:Was the Lamborghini "course car" at the back of the grid meant to have been there? I thought only the medical car started the first lap behind the grid.

I was wondering about that myself.

Barbazza · Post by **Barbazza** » 03 Sep 2017, 18:41

WeirdKerr wrote:Was the Lamborghini "course car" at the back of the grid meant to have been there? I thought only the medical car started the first lap behind the grid.

Shame they didn't wheel the Lambo 291 out of the museum and park it at the back - would've thrilled me morwe than 95% of the race.

Post by **Miguel98** » 03 Sep 2017, 23:08

Does anyone have a clue why did Perez start ahead of the Sauber's?

Bleu · Post by **Bleu** » 05 Sep 2017, 19:46

Miguel98 wrote:Does anyone have a clue why did Perez start ahead of the Sauber's?

P11 (Perez's Q position) + 5-place penalty = "P16" - ahead of Saubers who were "P18" and "P19". To fill the empty spots everyone then moved forward.