The worst F1 car to win a Grand Prix

[sswishbone]

Just saw this on Autosport (been busy over Christmas) and it seems Garry Anderson believes the 2003 Jordan is the winner of this dubious award

http://www.autosport.com/premium/featur ... grand-prix

Thing is I am not sure I agree, surely the 1996 Ligier that won Monaco was worse? Or am I being harsh on Panis and co with this one?

[tommykl]

I'll throw the March 751 out there. Only very rarely scored points, and the Austrian Grand Prix victory was pretty damn flukey. Had Rolf Stommelen not had his accident, the Hill GH1 would certainly be the only answer.

[This Could Be You]

Off the top of my head there's a couple of Ferraris that come to mind for this award:

Ferrari 126CK (1981)
Ugly, heavy, ill-handling and severely lacking in downforce, Gilles Villeneuve somehow won two races with a car he described as a 'big red Cadillac'. Its only redeeming feature was its powerful turbo V6.

Ferrari F310 (1996)
An overcomplicated, unreliable and bloated-looking design by John Barnard which also managed to be late (it used a lot of parts from 1995's 412T2 until mid season), Schumacher dragged three wins out of the car against the dominant Williams.

[novitopoli]

I'll throw the Williams FW09 into contention. One single win in a high-attrition race at Dallas, following which a B-spec version was introduced at Brands Hatch...earning the team a tally of ZERO points.

[Alextrax52]

Id agree on the 03 Jordan considering Fisichella scored all his points in wet conditions (7th in the USA on top of that Brazil win) and the car only scored 1 point in the dry weather (Ralph Firman finishing 8th in Spain)

The 2004 Williams? Was pretty rubbish until they ditched the walrus nose. The 2005 Ferrari which won the farcical USA 05 race ranks in there nicely too

[Aislabie]

Wasn't there a Ferrari that won a race at Monza in the hands of Phil Hill only because no-one else dared risk their drivers dying on the infamous banking?

Speaking of Monza, what about the '08 Toro Rosso?

[WaffleCat]

Just…the 2012 Williams. How they won in Spain, I don't know. That would have been one of only three points finishes in the pre-2003 system. That was incredible.

And for Phil Hill's victory, the Dino 246, that was the car that Hawthorn/Collins/Musso used back in 1958 to great effect, but became absolutely useless with the advent of rear-engined cars.

[AustralianStig]

Just…the 2012 Williams. How they won in Spain, I don't know. That would have been one of only three points finishes in the pre-2003 system. That was incredible.

Let's all take a moment to remember the great driver behind the wheel on that wonderful day.

[mario]

Just saw this on Autosport (been busy over Christmas) and it seems Garry Anderson believes the 2003 Jordan is the winner of this dubious award

http://www.autosport.com/premium/featur ... grand-prix

Thing is I am not sure I agree, surely the 1996 Ligier that won Monaco was worse? Or am I being harsh on Panis and co with this one?

The JS43 was a fairly poor car, but they did manage a handful of other top six finishes (albeit mainly through attrition) and, at least in terms of relative position, the car tended to qualify slightly closer to the front than the Jordan did (Panis and Diniz tended to qualify around 11th-15th at most circuits).

Just…the 2012 Williams. How they won in Spain, I don't know. That would have been one of only three points finishes in the pre-2003 system. That was incredible.

And for Phil Hill's victory, the Dino 246, that was the car that Hawthorn/Collins/Musso used back in 1958 to great effect, but became absolutely useless with the advent of rear-engined cars.

To some extent, I think that the FW34 was a potentially better car than the final results would suggest - there were other races that season where Maldonado could have picked up a podium finish (the European GP or the Singapore GP), after all. The team did somewhat shoot themselves in the foot with the way that they handled Bruno Senna by taking away his practise time to bed Bottas into the team, having a detrimental impact on his performance in the races.

Wasn't there a Ferrari that won a race at Monza in the hands of Phil Hill only because no-one else dared risk their drivers dying on the infamous banking?

Speaking of Monza, what about the '08 Toro Rosso?

Yes, that would be the 1960 Italian GP when most of the British teams boycotted the race due to concerns over the potential fragility of their cars.

As for the Toro Rosso, actually, it has to be said that Vettel had been picking up a fair number of points in the latter part of the 2008 season (he'd have had the equivalent of six other points scoring finishes under the pre-2003 points system) - the late season upgrades had made that car reasonably competitive by then.

I'll throw the March 751 out there. Only very rarely scored points, and the Austrian Grand Prix victory was pretty damn flukey. Had Rolf Stommelen not had his accident, the Hill GH1 would certainly be the only answer.

Thinking about it, the March 751 is a fairly strong contender in that respect - as you say, most of their other points finishes were down to pure luck and, in normal circumstances, the car wasn't usually that competitive.

[ibsey]

Ferrari 126CK (1981)
Ugly, heavy, ill-handling and severely lacking in downforce, Gilles Villeneuve somehow won two races with a car he described as a 'big red Cadillac'. Its only redeeming feature was its powerful turbo V6.

Personally don’t think anything could beat this. Apparently the V6 turbo also suffered from severe turbo lag. Exactly the sort of thing you don’t need at places like Monaco & Jarama. How Gilles won those races still blows my mind to this day.

Been looking into the March 751. Aside from Brambilla winning the 1975 Austrian GP it’s only other point scoring results were a couple of 5th places. Also its successor, 761 is worth a shout. Aside from Peterson’s win, it managed another 5 points scoring positions at no higher than 4th position.

On a separate note I wonder how much untapped potential there was in the JS43?

IIRC Tom Walkinshaw withdrew his TWR support to Ligier around the 2nd race of 1996. And this pretty much left the team in limbo until Prost brought them in Feb 1997. Also Ligier didn’t have alot of money to be able to develop the JS43. Remember its predecessor the JS41 and its successor the JS45 were both mighty fine cars and were based on Benetton designs. Also Wiki states this about the JS45;

The problems of braking and pitch sensitivity with the previous year's Ligier JS43 had been largely solved and this, allied with Panis' skill and the durability of the Bridgestones, enabled the French driver to finish fifth in Australia, third in Brazil, fourth in Monaco and then second in Spain, just six seconds behind eventual World Champion Jacques Villeneuve. These results put him third in the Drivers' Championship, and after the Spanish Grand Prix Villeneuve said that he regarded Panis as one of his main threats for the rest of the season.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prost_JS45

Can’t help but wonder given the issues they faced in 1996 whether the JS43's full potential was unleashed?

Finally can we count the Theodore TR-1 which Rosberg won the 1978 International Trophy at Silverstone. It wasn't a F1 championship round, however IIRC the competition was strong, and Keke won on merit. Aside from that win the car qualified for only one GP in South Africa and was abandoned by mid-season.

[Ataxia]

Just…the 2012 Williams. How they won in Spain, I don't know. That would have been one of only three points finishes in the pre-2003 system. That was incredible.

Maldonado and Senna wasted that car. It was clearly very good, but Pastor threw away a lot of good results over the year (Valencia, Australia, Brazil, etc), and Senna spent his year being pretty useless. 8th in the WCC was such a poor return.

I'm with Big Gary on this; the Jordan EJ13 was battling Minardis every other week, so Fisichella grabbing that win at Brazil was just...magic.

[ibsey]

I'm with Big Gary on this; the Jordan EJ13 was battling Minardis every other week, so Fisichella grabbing that win at Brazil was just...magic.

It could be argued that the EJ13 was also battling a Minardi at Brazil 2003 (well at least in the 1st half of the race). As IIRC the Minardi of Jos Verstappen was ahead of Fisico and on the same fuel strategy when Jos binned it at around half distance. Would have been interesting to see how that particular battle might have panned out had Jos had the manners to stay on the black stuff.

BTW Ataxia - I completely agree with your thoughts on the 2012 Williams being wasted.

[girry]

Finally can we count the Theodore TR-1 which Rosberg won the 1978 International Trophy at Silverstone. It wasn't a F1 championship round, however IIRC the competition was strong, and Keke won on merit. Aside from that win the car qualified for only one GP in South Africa and was abandoned by mid-season.

Yeah this was what I was about to come mention The field may not have been totally WC calibre that day, but both Lotuses and Lauda's Brabham were there anyway, along with several private McLarens.

Surtees won the 1971 Gold Cup in his Surtees, which was a midpack car at best. Could as well nominate Gethin winning the 1973 Race of Champions in front of Hulme's works McLaren, if not for his Chevron-Chevy actually being an F2 car...

Then there was the slghtly off-topic oddball of the Pau Grand Prix in 1938. It wasn't a deep field by any means, especially with Alfa Romeo's pre race withdrawal, but I feel it fits the topic anyway: peculiar circumstances allowing a straight battle between Caracciola/Lang's all conquering Mercedes W154 (which were still competitive in 1951 against F1 Ferrari's...) and the Delahaye 145 of René Dreyfus. The Delahaye was a sportscar at heart which was lightyears off the Silver Arrows in any normal circumstances (i.e. 20 seconds on a 4 minute Tripoli lap, for example), but the ultra tight Pau circuit allowed Dreyfus to keep up with the W154 despite a great power deficit. As the fuel-thirsty supercharged Mercedes had to enter the pits for a splash, it surely dawned on the Mercedes team that Dreyfus had them in his pocket, since he was able to finish the race without pitting: the Germans surely couldn't have re-caught and passed the Jewish driver on such a narrow course - even without the sparkplug trouble rendering any of their efforts useless, leaving Dreyfus triumphant with a massive gap and the Mercedes team utterly embarrassed.

--
To return to WC events, Hawthorn's Ferrari 553 and Clark's Lotus-BRM 43 weren't that slow but both terribly unreliable, and both got their only points when they won the 1954 Spanish GP and the 1966 Belgian GP respectively. Then there was Jones' win in the 1977 Austrian GP in a Shadow DN8, if not in a car necessarily as slow as the Fisichella Jordan, should at least warrant a honourable mention in this topic. One of the most inconsistent seasons in the F1 history, yet a Shadow qualified in the top 6 only once all year...

[Dj_bereta]

Just…the 2012 Williams. How they won in Spain, I don't know. That would have been one of only three points finishes in the pre-2003 system. That was incredible.

Maldonado and Senna wasted that car. It was clearly very good, but Pastor threw away a lot of good results over the year (Valencia, Australia, Brazil, etc), and Senna spent his year being pretty useless. 8th in the WCC was such a poor return.

I'm with Big Gary on this; the Jordan EJ13 was battling Minardis every other week, so Fisichella grabbing that win at Brazil was just...magic.

I wouldn't entirely blame the duo for the Williams misfortunes during 2012 season. Some race strategies for Senna were "questionable" at the best, like staying for too long in the track with ruined tyres. Bottas running in FP1 wasn't good for Senna either. And I call what happened in Valencia as race incident since IMO, Hamilton tried to force Maldonado off the track in the braking zone and gave no room for him afterwards (and he lost precious points for the championship). And for finish, Maldonado had mechanical failures in three races while running in the points (Germany, Singapore (fighting for a podium) and Abu Dhabi).

For me, Button and Hamilton are better choices for the title "wasted a good car" in that season. Especially the former.

Also, I agree with Jordan being the "worst" car to win a Grand Prix. 2nd worst car of the field during all year.

[watka]

The Leyton House of 1990 would be up there had the car held out at Paul Ricard. Is that the only instance of a DNQ followed by a podium finish?

[girry]

Piquet won the '82 Canadian GP after a DNQ at Detroit.

[good_Ralf]

Yeah, I also disagree on the Williams FW34 being a bad car, I believe it was about the 5th best car that year, at least. What could've been if Bottas and Barrichello had been in the car instead. And the Ferrari F310 wasn't a great chassis, but in Irvine's hands, he usually qualified it around the bottom half of the top 10, that's not too bad (as for Irvine's form and the car's reliability, that's another story!)
Again, it's didn't win a race (so close!), but the Arrows A18 has to be up there.

[James1978]

The 2012 Mercedes could be up there given how its form dipped after Rosberg won in China - they were just about the worst team (save the new for-2010 trio) in the later part of the season!

[Ciaran]

Then there was the slghtly off-topic oddball of the Pau Grand Prix in 1938. It wasn't a deep field by any means, especially with Alfa Romeo's pre race withdrawal, but I feel it fits the topic anyway: peculiar circumstances allowing a straight battle between Caracciola/Lang's all conquering Mercedes W154 (which were still competitive in 1951 against F1 Ferrari's...) and the Delahaye 145 of René Dreyfus. The Delahaye was a sportscar at heart which was lightyears off the Silver Arrows in any normal circumstances (i.e. 20 seconds on a 4 minute Tripoli lap, for example), but the ultra tight Pau circuit allowed Dreyfus to keep up with the W154 despite a great power deficit. As the fuel-thirsty supercharged Mercedes had to enter the pits for a splash, it surely dawned on the Mercedes team that Dreyfus had them in his pocket, since he was able to finish the race without pitting: the Germans surely couldn't have re-caught and passed the Jewish driver on such a narrow course - even without the sparkplug trouble rendering any of their efforts useless, leaving Dreyfus triumphant with a massive gap and the Mercedes team utterly embarrassed.

Who needs Aldo Raine when there's some Nazi scalps to be had?

[Nuppiz]

The Leyton House of 1990 would be up there had the car held out at Paul Ricard. Is that the only instance of a DNQ followed by a podium finish?

Well, between those races the team went under major restructuring, including the sacking of one Adrian Newey, who - as a parting gift before heading off to greener pastures at Williams - introduced a large upgrade package to the car. So exactly how bad the CG901 still was in France is open to debate.

[ibsey]

So exactly how bad the CG901 still was in France is open to debate.

Apparently the aero for the all conquering Newey designed Williams from 1991 to 1994 were all based on the CG901 design. Newey states;

If you look at the 901 Leyton House alongside the FW14 they are very similar.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archi ... er-2014/38


I'd like to throw the Tyrrell 011 as used in 1983 out there. Aside from the win in Detriot it only ever scored a 5th in Monaco. Admittedly its lack of performance on non street circuits was largely down being powered by a DFV engine. Although having said that the DFV powered Mclaren & Williams occasional gave the turbo's a bloody nose?

[ibsey]

Again, it's didn't win a race (so close!), but the Arrows A18 has to be up there.

The A18 was on for a podium at Nurburgring until Damon stalled the engine. Also IIRC reliability issues cost it and Damon decent points at races like Jerez & Barcelona. The car wasn't great, but it did benefit from Bridgestone tyres which IMO were the ones to have at some races that year including Hungary.

[FullMetalJack]

The 2004 Williams? Was pretty rubbish until they ditched the walrus nose.

Admittedly the Williams in 2004 was a damn sight better than the McLaren. The A-Spec McLaren that year were struggling to even beat Sauber.

Also, Williams did show some pace early on such as Montoya in Malaysia. Ralf's pole and provisional 2nd place in Canada too, although that was the exception rather than the rule in Ralf's case.

[watka]

Piquet won the '82 Canadian GP after a DNQ at Detroit.

Looked up this tragic grand prix and noted that Piquet won in a Brabham-BMW and Patrese was second in a Brabham-Ford.

[Dj_bereta]

Speaking of Monza, what about the '08 Toro Rosso?

Toro Rosso car was damn good for those conditions. Bourdais started in 4th place and he is well known as bad driver in wet conditions. He almost scored the fastest lap of the GP. It's a shame he lost a lap, Toro Rosso could had been scored a double podium finish.

[WeirdKerr]

Speaking of Monza, what about the '08 Toro Rosso?

Toro Rosso car was damn good for those conditions. Bourdais started in 4th place and he is well known as bad driver in wet conditions. He almost scored the fastest lap of the GP. It's a shame he lost a lap, Toro Rosso could had been scored a double podium finish.

And Vettel..... would have 1 less win lol

[yannicksamlad]

I was thinking of Beltoise's victory in 72 at Monaco and the BRM , but actually it did pick up a few top 6 positions in the course of its existence..so I think the Jordan does seem relatively worse, comfortably.

[Wallio]

I'm with Big Gary on this; the Jordan EJ13 was battling Minardis every other week, so Fisichella grabbing that win at Brazil was just...magic.

It could be argued that the EJ13 was also battling a Minardi at Brazil 2003 (well at least in the 1st half of the race). As IIRC the Minardi of Jos Verstappen was ahead of Fisico and on the same fuel strategy when Jos binned it at around half distance. Would have been interesting to see how that particular battle might have panned out had Jos had the manners to stay on the black stuff.

BTW Ataxia - I completely agree with your thoughts on the 2012 Williams being wasted.

Paul Stoddart did an interview with F1 Racing a few years back where they asked him about this. According to him, all the teams knew it would be a monsoon and end early, so they filled Jos to the gills with fuel and sent him out on a NO stop strategy. He claims with how many laps were run under the safety car they would have made it and Jos would have won. He said the ECU got wet and and put th car in a high speed stall which spun Jos.

I tend to not believe anything PS says, but it makes you wonder.

[andrew]

It is by no means the worst car, but the 2012 Ferrari at least deserves a shout. (I'm mainly talking about the car that won Malaysia)

[mario]

I'm with Big Gary on this; the Jordan EJ13 was battling Minardis every other week, so Fisichella grabbing that win at Brazil was just...magic.

It could be argued that the EJ13 was also battling a Minardi at Brazil 2003 (well at least in the 1st half of the race). As IIRC the Minardi of Jos Verstappen was ahead of Fisico and on the same fuel strategy when Jos binned it at around half distance. Would have been interesting to see how that particular battle might have panned out had Jos had the manners to stay on the black stuff.

BTW Ataxia - I completely agree with your thoughts on the 2012 Williams being wasted.

Paul Stoddart did an interview with F1 Racing a few years back where they asked him about this. According to him, all the teams knew it would be a monsoon and end early, so they filled Jos to the gills with fuel and sent him out on a NO stop strategy. He claims with how many laps were run under the safety car they would have made it and Jos would have won. He said the ECU got wet and and put th car in a high speed stall which spun Jos.

I tend to not believe anything PS says, but it makes you wonder.

I'll agree that you have to take what is being said with a pinch of salt, but the idea of sending Jos out and trying to make it to the end on a single tank of fuel is certainly the sort of gamble that a small team might make in those circumstances when they've little else to lose and everything to gain from trying it. If I recall well, Spyker tried a similar strategy with Sutil all the way back in the 2007 Japanese GP (where Sutil had enough fuel to run to the end non stop if the race had gone the full distance under the safety car), so there are parallels to Jos's tactics.

Whether Jos could have won the race is something that cannot be answered with certainty, but it is true that Jos had been running ahead of Fisichella until he spun off. Had he been able to maintain his position, then it is possible that he could have come to the front of the field at just the right time to have profited from the race being stopped early.