The 2014 Spanish Grand Prix Thread

Post by **Ataxia** » 05 May 2014, 18:50

I thought I'd begin this thread with an interesting news article.

First of all, probably to the delight of many, I've found an article which tips Sauber tester and part-time deity Giedo "#vanderGod" van der Garde for a race drive with the team next season. It also suggests that Fabio Leimer was in the running for a seat, but apparently even $14m wasn't enough for him to get the drive.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 05 May 2014, 19:05

Ataxia wrote:It also suggests that Fabio Leimer was in the running for a seat, but apparently even $14m wasn't enough for him to get the drive.

I heard Leimer was sniffing around Gutierrez's seat a few months ago... makes sense that Sauber wouldn't hire him if he couldn't get more funding that Gutierrez though - it's not like he'd be much of an improvement if any at all in the driving department. Though given how miserable Sutil's season and Sauber's bank balance has been, maybe they should've gone for a Gutierrez/Leimer lineup and build towards the future.

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 05 May 2014, 19:30

Salamander wrote:Though given how miserable Sutil's season and Sauber's bank balance has been, maybe they should've gone for a Gutierrez/Leimer lineup and build towards the future.

Peter Windsor suggested in F1 Racing that at the end of 2012 Sauber should have kept Perez and Gutierrez and turned Sauber into a Mexican-themed constructor, with both the drivers loaded with Mexican money.

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 05 May 2014, 19:36

THE FUTURE

Max Chilton's view from his MR03 cockpit at the end of lap 66:

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 05 May 2014, 22:03

Imagine a van der Garde/De Silvestro lineup. That would be something.

watka · Post by **watka** » 05 May 2014, 22:15

Jocke, I think the only way that Chilton won't make the checkered flag is if Enoch does an article on him!

eytl · Post by **eytl** » 05 May 2014, 22:57

Waris wrote:Imagine a van der Garde/De Silvestro lineup. That would be something.

That would actually make me take notice of them! At the moment, Sauber is committing that heinous F1 Rejects crime of being so mediocre that they're actually anonymous.

watka wrote:Jocke, I think the only way that Chilton won't make the checkered flag is if Enoch does an article on him!

Oooh, now there's an idea ... !!! :lol:

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 05 May 2014, 23:58

eytl wrote:Sauber is committing that heinous F1 Rejects crime of being so mediocre that they're actually anonymous

Is that why AGS aren't profiled yet and other teams were? They weren't outlandishly bad like Coloni and Eurobrun, but never really done anything noteworthy like Onyx.

AustralianStig · Post by **AustralianStig** » 06 May 2014, 00:26

Not sure what thread to put this in, but Seb's decided to channel go_rubens in his latest whinge about the current state of F1:

Sebastian 'go_rubens' Vettel wrote:"I would prefer a V10 or V12 with 1000 horse power - lots of power."

http://www.planetf1.com/driver/18227/92 ... F1-changes

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 06 May 2014, 01:48

Sebastian 'roblomas52' Vettel wrote:I would prefer a V10 or V12 with 1000 horse power - lots of power.

AustralianStig · Post by **AustralianStig** » 06 May 2014, 02:05

Oh it was roblomas who always wants 1000BHP? I always get those two mixed up...

Post by **Londoner** » 06 May 2014, 07:11

As I said before, I guarantee Vettel wouldn't be saying this if he was, you know, dominating and winning races. Christ, he's moaning more than Jamie Whingecup. :roll:

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 06 May 2014, 07:36

The thing is, though, he says he'd prefer racing F1 cars to be like taming a dragon - these cars are far more dragon-like than in years past. They're much more powerful and quicker in a straight line, and the much-reduced amount of grip available means you really have to work a lot more than last year to get them through the corners. So, I really don't see Vettel's argument here at all. Hell, he even says he has a lack of confidence on the brakes - that's what taming a beast should be like! They're arbitrary, unpredictable things - of course you'd have a lack of confidence in them!

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 06 May 2014, 08:07

Salamander wrote: Hell, he even says he has a lack of confidence on the brakes - that's what taming a beast should be like! They're arbitrary, unpredictable things - of course you'd have a lack of confidence in them!

Maybe thats the wrong sort of taming :lol:

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 06 May 2014, 08:09

I've just learned the cars had 1000 horsepower last year.

Post by **mario** » 06 May 2014, 10:16

Salamander wrote:The thing is, though, he says he'd prefer racing F1 cars to be like taming a dragon - these cars are far more dragon-like than in years past. They're much more powerful and quicker in a straight line, and the much-reduced amount of grip available means you really have to work a lot more than last year to get them through the corners. So, I really don't see Vettel's argument here at all. Hell, he even says he has a lack of confidence on the brakes - that's what taming a beast should be like! They're arbitrary, unpredictable things - of course you'd have a lack of confidence in them!

I have to agree that Vettel's comments are contradictory - he asks for more power when it is generally agreed that the current powertrains are, around most of the lap, putting out more power than the V8 engines did (peak power is probably similar), so the power shouldn't be an issue. Furthermore, Brundle has said that the drivers he has spoken to have made it clear that the new cars are more challenging to drive, which has ramped up the spectacle in one sense.

Given the close bond between Vettel and Ecclestone, plus the difficulties he has faced in adapting to the current cars, I cannot help but feel that his comments are motivated by other incentives.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 06 May 2014, 10:20

Maybe it is my memory giving in but I sincerely struggle to remember of any other prominent driver that was so vocal against the Formula in which he drives. Yes, there were some cases where drivers weren't satisfied, like Mark Webber more recently, and they all ended up turning their back on the sport. Which is the right thing to do. Vettel is doing the wrong thing in my opinion. Which is moaning month in month out about the state of the sport after losing the the dominating power he had. And that is coming out as 'being a sore loser'. I think he has nothing to gain in being this vocal so early into the formula. I was all for the formula of DRS and KERS and degrading tyres with all focus on aero (a Formula which seemingly pleases Vettel) when it was first born. Sure, it took me about 2 years and a half to grew tired of the novelty and realise that it was too much artificial for my own tastes. I was seeing less and less races come 2013. Still I gave it time and opportunity to settle in and give us 2 or 3 seasons of racing. I then became critical of it. Vettel is jumping the gun as quickly as he can. Again, it is coming wrong... And as Salamander and mario pointed out, his argumentation is also poor.

I currently like this formula for three things:
1- The engine is a relevant thing now (only recently was different);
2- The racing and overtaking doesn't feel too artificial;
3- The cars are handful and thus more challenging to drive.

girry · Post by **girry** » 06 May 2014, 10:25

Last year both Kimi and Bottas were asked what they would change in F1 if they could, and both responded that the car could do with way more horsepower. So, Seb's not the only driver to voice that opinion...

go_Rubens · Post by **go_Rubens** » 06 May 2014, 10:50

AustralianStig wrote:Oh it was roblomas who always wants 1000BHP? I always get those two mixed up...

Well, all I want in an F1 car is tough to drive and somewhat fast. Well, at least this year's cars have not let me down!

Post by **mario** » 06 May 2014, 11:52

giraurd wrote:Last year both Kimi and Bottas were asked what they would change in F1 if they could, and both responded that the car could do with way more horsepower. So, Seb's not the only driver to voice that opinion...

A driver will almost always ask for more power if the car can take it (and sometimes even when it can't), so that in and of itself is not surprising.

However, to the best of my knowledge neither Bottas nor Kimi have made demands for more power this season (or at least Bottas seems happy enough - given that the Ferrari powertrain is not on the same level as Mercedes, perhaps Kimi might be wishing for more power).

On another note, it sounds as if Lotus are bringing a major upgrade package to the Spanish GP - they are talking about new rear bodywork and revised cooling systems, a modified rear wing and modifications to the engine software systems (it seems that Renault have already brought in a few updates to increase the power output and Lotus are also bringing in their own modifications too). Hopefully, if those upgrades work well, we might see the team from Enstone manage to repeat some of their recent Q3 performances again - it would certainly be a welcome sight to see them back in the top 10. http://www.f1technical.net/news/19318

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 06 May 2014, 13:08

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
Sebastian 'roblomas52' Vettel wrote:I would prefer a V10 or V12 with 1000 horse power - lots of power.

I could not help but read this in the voice of Jeremy Clarkson...

Alextrax52 · Post by **Alextrax52** » 06 May 2014, 14:03

For me these next 4-5 races will determine if Ricciardo is either a Fraction behind, A fraction ahead or dead level with Vettel. Bahrain and China are traditionally tracks where Dan has shone before and so on a track he never has gone well at will he be able to pull it off? Plus the only race where Seb seemingly hasn't had a problem was Malaysia and he was miles clear of Dan.

Post by **mario** » 06 May 2014, 18:54

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:For me these next 4-5 races will determine if Ricciardo is either a Fraction behind, A fraction ahead or dead level with Vettel. Bahrain and China are traditionally tracks where Dan has shone before and so on a track he never has gone well at will he be able to pull it off? Plus the only race where Seb seemingly hasn't had a problem was Malaysia and he was miles clear of Dan.

It has also been reported that Vettel will be given a new chassis for the Spanish GP after Marko stated that Vettel is not content with the way that the current chassis is behaving (it seems that he is reporting instances of inconsistent rear end behaviour). At the very least that change is likely to give Vettel a small psychological boost and, if there is indeed damage to the chassis (the team cannot confirm whether or not that is the case), that would lead to a potentially larger boost in Vettel's pace.

I agree that the next string of races might well start seeing the balance tip back in Vettel's favour - Monaco and Canada, with the low to medium speed complexes they have, should be more to Vettel's liking if Newey is to be believed (he has stated that he felt that Vettel was traditionally stronger in low to medium speed corners whilst Webber was slightly stronger in high speed corners), and the A1 Ring is another circuit which might favour him too.

Against that, it seems that Vettel is still struggling to adapt his driving style to the new engine package - whilst the old blown diffusers required a quite counter intuitive style of driving (very early throttle application to accelerate air through the diffuser using the exhaust plume) that worked very well with Vettel's driving style, the higher torque of the new engines and the wider torque band means that driving in that way would either spit you off the track this season or, at the very least, aggravates rear tyre wear (it's notable that Ricciardo has managed his tyre wear a bit better than Vettel in the past couple of races as well).

Overall, I expect that the two might partially cancel to some extent, such that it will probably be the case that the relative balance of performance between Ricciardo and Vettel will shift from race to race, but with Vettel not being as far behind in the races where Ricciardo has an advantage.

The other quite interesting team mate battle will be the Hamilton-Rosberg battle - Rosberg must be feeling that this race is, in some ways, make or break for him, because Hamilton has comprehensively outdriven him in all departments in the past three races. Barcelona might well be Rosberg's best chance of checking Hamilton's recent dominance - the Spanish GP hasn't been one of Hamilton's stronger or luckier tracks in recent years (he had his lowest finish there last season), whereas Rosberg's performance there last season was reasonably respectable.

eytl · Post by **eytl** » 06 May 2014, 23:23

Salamander wrote:The thing is, though, he says he'd prefer racing F1 cars to be like taming a dragon - these cars are far more dragon-like than in years past. They're much more powerful and quicker in a straight line, and the much-reduced amount of grip available means you really have to work a lot more than last year to get them through the corners. So, I really don't see Vettel's argument here at all. Hell, he even says he has a lack of confidence on the brakes - that's what taming a beast should be like! They're arbitrary, unpredictable things - of course you'd have a lack of confidence in them!

I'm thinking the same thing. He's having a hard enough time getting his head around the cars as they are. Why would he want more power which might make it even harder to control? In a season in which Seb could do a lot to prove his doubters wrong, up to this point he hasn't really achieved that and in fact rather vindicated them, I must say ...

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 07 May 2014, 05:47

To me, another reason to watch the GP is how McLaren will fare.
This race will be make or break for them - if they can actually put their foot into Q3 comfortably, then job well done, and we might see further improvement from Ron's squad.
...but if they still keep languishing in Q2, well... this race won't suit them well. Just like ten years ago.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 07 May 2014, 07:24

Does anybody else consider the Circuit De Catalunya a historic circuit yet or is 23 years not really long enough? I think it is.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 07 May 2014, 07:33

CoopsII wrote:Does anybody else consider the Circuit De Catalunya a historic circuit yet or is 23 years not really long enough? I think it is.

I think it is too... but there really haven't been many classic races. Except maybe Pastor's win.

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 07 May 2014, 07:52

Salamander wrote:
CoopsII wrote:Does anybody else consider the Circuit De Catalunya a historic circuit yet or is 23 years not really long enough? I think it is.

I think it is too... but there really haven't been many classic races. Except maybe Pastor's win.

1996 has to be up there.

Post by **mario** » 07 May 2014, 07:55

Shizuka wrote:To me, another reason to watch the GP is how McLaren will fare.
This race will be make or break for them - if they can actually put their foot into Q3 comfortably, then job well done, and we might see further improvement from Ron's squad.
...but if they still keep languishing in Q2, well... this race won't suit them well. Just like ten years ago.

Whilst I accept that I could well be wrong, I wouldn't expect a huge amount from McLaren as the indication is that they are not bringing a particularly large upgrade package for the Spanish GP (the only thing confirmed so far would seem to be slightly modified brake ducts).
It may be the case that they've intentionally downplayed expectations and have a larger upgrade package in the wings, but given that Mercedes, Lotus and Red Bull all seem to be making a large development push for this race, added to the fact that Renault have brought in an upgrade package for the engine which seems to have improved power output and driveability, and McLaren might find themselves under just as much pressure as before.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 07 May 2014, 08:16

mario wrote:It may be the case that they've intentionally downplayed expectations and have a larger upgrade package in the wings, but given that Mercedes, Lotus and Red Bull all seem to be making a large development push for this race, added to the fact that Renault have brought in an upgrade package for the engine which seems to have improved power output and driveability, and McLaren might find themselves under just as much pressure as before.

kevinbotz will not like this :oops:

They might really have to battle for 5th in the WDC - Mercedes, Red Bull and Ferrari are most likely to claim the first three positions respectively.
4th place on the other hand, this can be an interesting battle between two, or maybe even three teams in the long run - and it might very well start in Barcelona. Force India is one of these teams - however, to actually not be an outsider to be overlooked will require both drivers to constantly bring home points. Hülk does this, but Checo still seem to suffer from what I call "Podiumitis". He has one decent weekend followed by one disappointing GP, although in China, from 16th to 9th is no mean feat.
I wouldn't count out McLaren from this. There is still valuable money in them, but in order to not fall behind, they must perform better than what they did in Shanghai. (And if it wasn't for the Flag Guy, Enoch would have given them a run for the RotR award!) The traditional order usually starts to be visible in Barcelona, so we'll see where the Woking team is in the pecking order. At this point, I feel they are battling Toro Rosso for 6th. If this happens (especially because of the Renault upgrade you mentioned), they might look down at the bottom of the barrel with no points in Spain.
A possible outside contender later can be Lotus, who will also profit from the Renault tuning. Grosjean hasn't lost his end-13 spark, proven well by our IIDotR award for his performance running in points on merit. On the down side, this is another team where one driver goes beyond limits, and the other one lags behind. If they want to stand up from the zero position where they stand at, our reject king Pastor (as said in the podcast, if he keeps this up, a RotY isn't unlikely!) has to bring not only his PDVSA bags, but points to the table too.
...and it might be a little improbable, but Toro Rosso might take a sniff at 6th. If they don't ditch Vergne mid-season. Kvyat regularly plonks his car right around 10th position (in fact, his average finishing position is exactly 10th right now), profiting from McLaren's and Lotus' bad and terrible perfomances respectively. If JEV can stay out of trouble, he might follow the Russian youngster's footsteps.
We'll see - but at the moment, 5th is between Williams and McLaren.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 07 May 2014, 08:49

Salamander wrote:
CoopsII wrote:Does anybody else consider the Circuit De Catalunya a historic circuit yet or is 23 years not really long enough? I think it is.

I think it is too... but there really haven't been many classic races. Except maybe Pastor's win.

There's been a few seminal moments, Maldonado's win as you say, Senna and Mansell wheel to wheel in 1991, Schumacher in 1996, but I find it one of those races that I like regardless of on-track action. I never really had a problem with Magny Cours either despite that having a rep as a snore-a-thon. I think both circuits can showcase dominance which I know many fans seem to see as a negative for some reason, but I actually enjoy it.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 07 May 2014, 09:13

1997. If it wasn't for Irvine. :evil:

Panis could have won this with ease. Also, Herbert's last lap pass on DC!

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 07 May 2014, 09:14

CoopsII wrote:There's been a few seminal moments, Maldonado's win as you say, Senna and Mansell wheel to wheel in 1991, Schumacher in 1996, but I find it one of those races that I like regardless of on-track action. I never really had a problem with Magny Cours either despite that having a rep as a snore-a-thon. I think both circuits can showcase dominance which I know many fans seem to see as a negative for some reason, but I actually enjoy it.

The anti-WINSLOL inquisition should be knocking at your door right about now. Just to rough you up a bit, nothing special! :lol:

About the topic, I fear that, for me, to achieve classic status the track must throw some memorable races and to be fair the Spanish GP has not been doing this that often... If we think about it and compare it with some more recent tracks, the Malaysian GP is in my mind, I can think of some classic moments throw by the latter along its years of existence.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 07 May 2014, 09:41

DanielPT wrote:The anti-WINSLOL inquisition should be knocking at your door right about now. Just to rough you up a bit, nothing special!

Pah! Who cares what those weirdo's think

McJaggers · Post by **McJaggers** » 07 May 2014, 12:29

DanielPT wrote:About the topic, I fear that, for me, to achieve classic status the track must throw some memorable races and to be fair the Spanish GP has not been doing this that often... If we think about it and compare it with some more recent tracks, the Malaysian GP is in my mind, I can think of some classic moments throw by the latter along its years of existence.

Id say classic status and reverence are two things. Hungaroring is an awful circuit, but its been round for 28 years, and a classic circuit. Would I shed a tear if it left the calendar? Nope.

Especially if it was replaced by turkey, or Fuji. Which have been on the calendar for such a short time, but have had a lasting impact.

Imola is a perfect example of 'classic, but who cares?' Circuit.

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 07 May 2014, 16:30

Salamander wrote:
CoopsII wrote:Does anybody else consider the Circuit De Catalunya a historic circuit yet or is 23 years not really long enough? I think it is.

I think it is too... but there really haven't been many classic races. Except maybe Pastor's win.

1991 produced one of the symbolic images in all of F1 and if you don't know what I mean then... 1994 had Schumi stuck in 5th gear, gifting an emotional win to Damon Hill and Williams. 1997 was the race where Bridgestone nearly won in the form of Panis' Prost-Mugen, I'd call that a classic. 2003 was also good because Alonso nearly won his home race in an underpowered Renault, pressuring Schumi in the seemingly unbeatable new Ferrari. I agree with you Salamander on 2012, depressing thinking how it's been 2 years since the latest debut F1 winner already.

But yeah the races tend to have a reputation for being dull overall and I won't go into details about 1999.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 07 May 2014, 17:38

good_Ralf wrote:I won't go into details about 1999.

That had a demon-starting JV (something he did in 2000 as well for many races) at least

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 07 May 2014, 18:06

It's had some decent races but I wouldn't put it down as a classic. I would say Hungary is more of a classic track in my mind, but that's probably biased by Hill's second place there in the Arrows.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 07 May 2014, 18:10

AndreaModa wrote:It's had some decent races but I wouldn't put it down as a classic. I would say Hungary is more of a classic track in my mind, but that's probably biased by Hill's second place there in the Arrows.

And Alonso's dominant first victory. And the 2006 madness.

(okay, okay, I stop :oops:

)

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 07 May 2014, 20:15

I put some money down today on Grosjean or Maldonado to win on Sunday. The odds were just too good to pass up.
One place had Grosjean x500 money back, one had Maldonado x1001 money back. #praying