Grand Prix Rejects

dinizintheoven wrote: Aren't you all glad you know that now?

Yes. Yes, I am.

dinizintheoven wrote: Jean Alesi (went the other way, #22 Prost to #12 Jordan), and Jarno Trulli (moved from the #12 Jordan to #11 for reasons which have never been specified, why Alesi didn't just take the #11 car is beyond me).

Jarno Trulli is now driving Jordan's number 11 car, previously occupied by his old teammate Heinz-Harald Frentzen due to a confusing part of the FIA's seemingly endless rulebook. The regulations state that the car designated to be the 'number one' car is only allowed one driver change during the season, and as Frentzen's was that car and Zonta had already driven in the races in Canada and Germany this season, no other driver could be placed in the car.

However, teams can have as many as three other drivers in the second car, and Trulli, having started the season with the team, was allowed move from number 12 into the team's primary car, the number 11 machine, to enable Jean Alesi to become the team's third driver, now in the number 12 car.

...and we think of the recent "Bernie's gone senile" era of F1 as being the time most associated with the kind of potty rules that wouldn't look out of place in Red Dwarf's Space Corps Directives manual...

Would this also explain Alex Zanardi shuffling over from the #11 Lotus to #12 in 1993?

dinizintheoven wrote:...and we think of the recent "Bernie's gone senile" era of F1 as being the time most associated with the kind of potty rules that wouldn't look out of place in Red Dwarf's Space Corps Directives manual...

Would this also explain Alex Zanardi shuffling over from the #11 Lotus to #12 in 1993?

You're thinking of 1994.

...and I'd just made a list of the number changes in the 90s as well...

Right, pay close attention:

2000: Michael Schumacher wins his third world title.
1991: Ayrton Senna wins his third world title.
2012: Sebastian Vettel wins his third world title.
1973: Jackie Stewart...
1984: Niki Lauda...
1955: Juan Manuel Fangio...
1966: Jack Brabham...
1987: Nelson Piquet...
1989: Alain Prost...

Are the stars finally going to align for Fernando in 2018, or has Lewis completely ruined the sequence by winning for the third time in 2015?

dinizintheoven wrote:...and I'd just made a list of the number changes in the 90s as well...

We all make mistakes

1993DonningtonNo1Mk2 wrote:

dinizintheoven wrote:...and I'd just made a list of the number changes in the 90s as well...

We all make mistakes

Some mistakes only become glaringly obvious with the passage of time...

pasta_maldonado wrote:

1993DonningtonNo1Mk2 wrote:

dinizintheoven wrote:...and I'd just made a list of the number changes in the 90s as well...

We all make mistakes

Some mistakes only become glaringly obvious with the passage of time...

So true

Simtek wrote:Right, pay close attention:

2000: Michael Schumacher wins his third world title.
1991: Ayrton Senna wins his third world title.
2012: Sebastian Vettel wins his third world title.
1973: Jackie Stewart...
1984: Niki Lauda...
1955: Juan Manuel Fangio...
1966: Jack Brabham...
1987: Nelson Piquet...
1989: Alain Prost...

Are the stars finally going to align for Fernando in 2018, or has Lewis completely ruined the sequence by winning for the third time in 2015?

Or a surprise comeback for Hakkinen?

This wrote:

Simtek wrote:Right, pay close attention:

2000: Michael Schumacher wins his third world title.
1991: Ayrton Senna wins his third world title.
2012: Sebastian Vettel wins his third world title.
1973: Jackie Stewart...
1984: Niki Lauda...
1955: Juan Manuel Fangio...
1966: Jack Brabham...
1987: Nelson Piquet...
1989: Alain Prost...

Are the stars finally going to align for Fernando in 2018, or has Lewis completely ruined the sequence by winning for the third time in 2015?

Or a surprise comeback for Hakkinen?

Or an even more surprising one for Emerson Fittipaldi?

Tank wrote:

This wrote:

Simtek wrote:Right, pay close attention:

2000: Michael Schumacher wins his third world title.
1991: Ayrton Senna wins his third world title.
2012: Sebastian Vettel wins his third world title.
1973: Jackie Stewart...
1984: Niki Lauda...
1955: Juan Manuel Fangio...
1966: Jack Brabham...
1987: Nelson Piquet...
1989: Alain Prost...

Are the stars finally going to align for Fernando in 2018, or has Lewis completely ruined the sequence by winning for the third time in 2015?

Or a surprise comeback for Hakkinen?

Or an even more surprising one for Emerson Fittipaldi?

Graham Hill would be the most surprising. Especially if it happens in an Embassy Hill...

dr-baker wrote:Graham Hill would be the most surprising. Especially if it happens in an Embassy Hill...

Could be worse- it would be even weirder if the undead corpse of Alberto Ascari wins in 2018, though he may show more enthusiasm and drive at Ferrari than Raikkonen...

There was a bit of similar theme earlier: first ten Ferrari WDC's were each on years ending with different numbers

1961
1952
1953
1964
1975
1956
1977
1958
1979
2000

This Could Be You wrote:

dr-baker wrote:Graham Hill would be the most surprising. Especially if it happens in an Embassy Hill...

Could be worse- it would be even weirder if the undead corpse of Alberto Ascari wins in 2018, though he may show more enthusiasm and drive at Ferrari than Raikkonen...

Although to be pedantic, Ascari never won an F1 championship. 1952 and 1953 were run to F2 regulations.

Meatwad wrote:Although to be pedantic, Ascari never won an F1 championship. 1952 and 1953 were run to F2 regulations.

Well to be yet more pedantic, while the races were run to F2 regulations, the races were ran as the FIA Formula One World Championship, so he is an F1 champion (albeit in F2 equipment), as there was no F2 World Championship.

This Could Be You wrote:

Meatwad wrote:Although to be pedantic, Ascari never won an F1 championship. 1952 and 1953 were run to F2 regulations.

Well to be yet more pedantic, while the races were run to F2 regulations, the races were ran as the FIA Formula One World Championship, so he is an F1 champion (albeit in F2 equipment), as there was no F2 World Championship.

Going further down this rabbit hole, these races were not run as the FIA Formula One World Championship. Back then it was only called the World Championship of Drivers, which wasn't necessarily a championship for F1 drivers, it's just that running all (well, most thanks to the AAA sticking to their guns for Indianapolis) the big races to the same engine formula made a ton of sense.

But then that also means that everyone who won a championship before Nelson Piquet (except Lauda) is not an F1 champion.

Since Hamilton will most likely run 44 again next year, that makes what? Four straight years with no #1 on the grid? Surely that must be a record.

Wallio wrote:Since Hamilton will most likely run 44 again next year, that makes what? Four straight years with no #1 on the grid? Surely that must be a record.

think the record was 2 in 1993 and 1994

WeirdKerr wrote:

Wallio wrote:Since Hamilton will most likely run 44 again next year, that makes what? Four straight years with no #1 on the grid? Surely that must be a record.

think the record was 2 in 1993 and 1994

It's a bit cheap, but there was the even-numbered days of the 1950s....

With one race to go in 2017, we've had five extra drivers on the grid this year from the original 20. The last time this happened was 2009, with somewhere between one and four driver changes occurring each season in the interim. Before this, 2006 also had five extra drivers, but we have to go back 12 years to 2005 to find a season with more: seven!

...
2004: 5
2005: 7
2006: 5
2007: 4
2008: 0
2009: 5
2010: 3
2011: 4
2012: 1
2013: 1
2014: 2
2015: 2
2016: 2
2017: 5*
*season ongoing you numpty

Ocons retirement in brazil was the first time he retired from any race in 3 years.

Rob Dylan wrote:With one race to go in 2017, we've had five extra drivers on the grid this year from the original 20. The last time this happened was 2009, with somewhere between one and four driver changes occurring each season in the interim. Before this, 2006 also had five extra drivers, but we have to go back 12 years to 2005 to find a season with more: seven!

...
2004: 5
2005: 7
2006: 5
2007: 4
2008: 0
2009: 5
2010: 3
2011: 4
2012: 1
2013: 1
2014: 2
2015: 2
2016: 2
2017: 5*
*season ongoing you numpty

IIRC 2008 was the only season no driver changes took place during the season

In 2008 not only was no change of drivers mid season, for 2009 there was only one change: with the retirement of Coulthard, Red Bull promoted Vettel from Toro Rosso and replaced him with Buemi. Really a boring silly season!!

The V6T era may be the least competitive ever, as only three teams have won races since its introduction (4 seasons).

In the original turbo heyday, Brahbam, Mclaren, Ferrari, Williams and even Benetton won races.

In the "active cars" era Ferrari, Williams, Benetton and Mclaren all won

In the ground effects 70s we saw Ferrari, Mclaren, Lotus and Wolf win.

Even in the 50s we had Lancia, Ferrari, Alfa, and Mercedes all win.

Wallio wrote:Even in the 50s we had Lancia, Ferrari, Alfa, and Mercedes all win.

The way you're dividing up the eras, though, Alfa didn't win in the same formula as Lancia or Mercedes. The 4.5-litre formula was so uncompetitive by the end of 1951 (all World Championship F1 races won by Alfa and Ferrari with the former pulling out) that the national auto clubs had to downgrade their races to Formula 2 just to have a chance of someone other than Ferrari winning - and even that failed. Even going into the few pre-World Championship years of the 4.5-litre era, you had Maserati as the only threat to Alfa in the Grandes Épreuves, with the only other winners being Talbot-Lago - and the only reason they won races at all was because Alfa didn't bother showing up.

Simtek wrote:

Wallio wrote:Even in the 50s we had Lancia, Ferrari, Alfa, and Mercedes all win.

The way you're dividing up the eras, though, Alfa didn't win in the same formula as Lancia or Mercedes. The 4.5-litre formula was so uncompetitive by the end of 1951 (all World Championship F1 races won by Alfa and Ferrari with the former pulling out) that the national auto clubs had to downgrade their races to Formula 2 just to have a chance of someone other than Ferrari winning - and even that failed. Even going into the few pre-World Championship years of the 4.5-litre era, you had Maserati as the only threat to Alfa in the Grandes Épreuves, with the only other winners being Talbot-Lago - and the only reason they won races at all was because Alfa didn't bother showing up.

That's a fair point. When I read the sat on Drivetribe this morning I was thinking only in terms of decades (roughly). But yea, if you go by eras the F2 years would have to be the worst, and the 3.0L eras (both of them) the best.

I guess, if quantified, the winning constructors by technical regulation "era" would look something like this:

"Pre-War" Voiturette Era (1950-51): Alfa Romeo, Ferrari
F2 Era (1952-53): Ferrari, Maserati
2.5 N/A Era (1954-60): Ferrari, Maserati, Mercedes, Vanwall, Cooper, BRM, Lotus
1.5 N/A Era (1961-65): Ferrari, Lotus, BRM, Cooper, Porsche, Brabham, Honda
1st 3.0 N/A Era: (1966-85*): BRM, Ferrari, Brabham, Lotus, Cooper, Eagle, Honda, Mclaren, Matra, March, Tyrrell, Hesketh, Penske, Wolf, Ligier, Shadow, Williams
1.5 Turbo Era (1977-88*): Renault, Ferrari, Brabham, Mclaren, Williams, Lotus, Benetton,
3.5 N/A Era (1987-94*) : Ferrari, Mclaren, Williams, Benetton
2nd 3.0 N/A Era (1995-2006**): Benetton, Williams, Ferrari, Ligier, Mclaren, Jordan, Stewart, Renault,
2.4 V8 Era (2006-13**): Renault, Ferrari, Honda, BMW Sauber, Toro Rosso, Brawn, Red Bull, Mercedes, Williams, Lotus
1.6 V6T Hybrid Era (2014-20): Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull
*The introduction of Turbo engines overlaps with the preceding 3.0 era, and the succeeding 3.5 era. Only in 1986 were 1.5 turbos the exclusive form of engine.
**Technically, the second 3.0 era overlaps with the 2.4 V8 era thanks to Toro Rosso's V10 engine in 2006, though they didn't come close to winning that year

From this, it is possible to tell several things- the current engine formula is the least competitive since the 1952-53 F2 regulations, and is only rivaled in recent times by the surprisingly (considering it's often considered a golden age for F1) sparse 3.5 N/A era. It's also interesting how the longer-lived, cheaper standards such as both 3.0 eras and the 2.4 V8 era created the most winners, both suggesting that manufacturer involvement may not be what's best for F1 but also that changing the regulations may not help all that much- the short-lived standards are by far the least competitive, though that may be the cause of their quick demise in some cases.

This Could Be You wrote:I guess, if quantified, the winning constructors by technical regulation "era" would look something like this:

"Pre-War" Voiturette Era (1950-51): Alfa Romeo, Ferrari
F2 Era (1952-53): Ferrari, Maserati
2.5 N/A Era (1954-60): Ferrari, Maserati, Mercedes, Vanwall, Cooper, BRM, Lotus
1.5 N/A Era (1961-65): Ferrari, Lotus, BRM, Cooper, Porsche, Brabham, Honda
1st 3.0 N/A Era: (1966-85*): BRM, Ferrari, Brabham, Lotus, Cooper, Eagle, Honda, Mclaren, Matra, March, Tyrrell, Hesketh, Penske, Wolf, Ligier, Shadow, Williams
1.5 Turbo Era (1977-88*): Renault, Ferrari, Brabham, Mclaren, Williams, Lotus, Benetton,
3.5 N/A Era (1987-94*) : Ferrari, Mclaren, Williams, Benetton
2nd 3.0 N/A Era (1995-2006**): Benetton, Williams, Ferrari, Ligier, Mclaren, Jordan, Stewart, Renault,
2.4 V8 Era (2006-13**): Renault, Ferrari, Honda, BMW Sauber, Toro Rosso, Brawn, Red Bull, Mercedes, Williams, Lotus
1.6 V6T Hybrid Era (2014-20): Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull
*The introduction of Turbo engines overlaps with the preceding 3.0 era, and the succeeding 3.5 era. Only in 1986 were 1.5 turbos the exclusive form of engine.
**Technically, the second 3.0 era overlaps with the 2.4 V8 era thanks to Toro Rosso's V10 engine in 2006, though they didn't come close to winning that year

From this, it is possible to tell several things- the current engine formula is the least competitive since the 1952-53 F2 regulations, and is only rivaled in recent times by the surprisingly (considering it's often considered a golden age for F1) sparse 3.5 N/A era. It's also interesting how the longer-lived, cheaper standards such as both 3.0 eras and the 2.4 V8 era created the most winners, both suggesting that manufacturer involvement may not be what's best for F1 but also that changing the regulations may not help all that much- the short-lived standards are by far the least competitive, though that may be the cause of their quick demise in some cases.

Utterly incredible stats mate, thank you. Seems to average 7 winners an era, roughly.

I do find your points about manufacturer involvement true to an extent, but I think a stable rules sheet helps as well. Obviously the longer the rules remain stable the closer everyone becomes. This was particularly true in the 2.4L era. Yes, the engines were "frozen" but everyone still improved them. Whether for "reliability" (Ferrari) or just being allowed to (Renault). I read somewhere that the first and last Ferrari 2.4s were completely different, save for the block, displacement and rev limit (although even that was capped).

Ditto in the first 3.0L era. 8w has a fantastic story on the DFV. It evolved so much over the years it was incredible. Although a lot of the closeness of the 3L years was the more open chassis regs, letting any team shine for a bit.

When Jordan won the 1998 Belgian GP Autosport published a pie chart that showed winners in F1 in recent times (maybe since 1990 or something like that) and of course it was dominated by the big four, with Ligier and Jordan having their little slithers of 1 each.

Also, there's the point that we've only had 3 years of the V6T era and there could be additional winners in the next few years - possibly McLaren or Renault most likely?

AndreaModa wrote: Also, there's the point that we've only had 3 years of the V6T era and there could be additional winners in the next few years - possibly McLaren or Renault most likely?

Four years, but yes that's true. That being said, its gone on longer than the Pre-War and F2 eras, and next year will be just as long as the 1.5 N/A rules.

As for new winners, only really Mclaren has a chance IMO. Haas has become a joke, Renault is going nowhere, and Williams are in a weird holding pattern. Now whether only having a "big 3" is bad is a matter of taste. As pointed out, the 3.5L era only had 4 winners, but many (including myself) adore that era.

Sorry for changing subject but..
https://twitter.com/F1/status/931106937856512001?s=17

Is Lewis about to usurp Ukyo as the GOAT?

Wallio wrote:

AndreaModa wrote: Also, there's the point that we've only had 3 years of the V6T era and there could be additional winners in the next few years - possibly McLaren or Renault most likely?

Four years, but yes that's true. That being said, its gone on longer than the Pre-War and F2 eras, and next year will be just as long as the 1.5 N/A rules.

As for new winners, only really Mclaren has a chance IMO. Haas has become a joke, Renault is going nowhere, and Williams are in a weird holding pattern. Now whether only having a "big 3" is bad is a matter of taste. As pointed out, the 3.5L era only had 4 winners, but many (including myself) adore that era.

Not only has it been four years, but with the number of extra races nowadays compared to back then, it's around five seasons in old money. If a standard season had 16 races, that's an extra 15 races than they would have had back then by the time 2017 finishes.

This very same complaint was voiced back when they started shoving 19 races on the calendar in the first place: all it does is compound the domination of one time for even longer than before, and doens't really add anything other than more races where they dominate.

As far as I'm aware, 2017 equals the record from 2002 and 2011, of the lowest number of podium sitters in a season: seven. This season, Stroll was the only driver from outside the top three teams to score a podium.

Carlos Sainz has scored less points driving for Renault in 2017 than Jolyon Palmer.

Only 3 champions have scored points in every single race of a title-winning season: Fangio in 1954, Schumacher in 2002, and Hamilton in 2017.

takagi_for_the_win wrote:Only 3 champions have scored points in every single race of a title-winning season: Fangio in 1954, Schumacher in 2002, and Hamilton in 2017.

I assume Fangio did not actually score in the Indy 500 in 1954? Or do you mean scoring points in every race that they entered that year?

Esteban Occon is the only driver not have a grid penalty all season

WeirdKerr wrote:Esteban Occon is the only driver not have a grid penalty all season

Wow!

(Facepalm is for the rejectfulness of the penalty system...)

Marcus Ericsson became first driver in 24 years to have two consecutive full seasons without scoring a point while his team-mate scored point(s) on both years.

Aguri Suzuki did the same in 1992-93 while both Alboreto and Warwick scored, Ericsson 's team-mates Nasr and Wehrlein managed to score.

Ukyo Katayama was almost doing the same in 1995-96 but he missed one race in 1995 due to his Portuguese GP accident.