Grand Prix Rejects

March in 1989?

Gugelmin scored a podium at Rio with the 1988 car, after that, no points.

Shizuka wrote:March in 1989?

Gugelmin scored a podium at Rio with the 1988 car, after that, no points.

They had horrible reliability.

Monaco: Capelli 6th, retires just over lap to go due to electrial problem.
Mexico: Capelli qualifies 4th, is forced to take spare car for the restart and retires after one lap.
USA: Capelli 8th at the retirement moment (gearbox), ahead of eventual 2nd and 3rd placed drivers.
France: Capelli retires from 2nd place (engine)
UK: Capelli retires from 7th (differential, only quarter gone though), Gugelmin from 5th with less than 10 laps to go (gearbox).
Germany: Gugelmin retires from 5th (gearbox) with about two thirds gone.
Italy: Capelli retires halfway through from 8th, ahead of 5th placed Alesi (engine).

Yeah, I remember that in the 1989 review.

A journo said what is different, Capelli kept going on saying everything is different.

In hindsight they probably should of stayed with the 1988 car, but the 89 car was much more aero advanced.

That was Neweys second car he designed???

Bleu wrote:

Shizuka wrote:March in 1989?

Gugelmin scored a podium at Rio with the 1988 car, after that, no points.

They had horrible reliability.

Monaco: Capelli 6th, retires just over lap to go due to electrial problem.
Mexico: Capelli qualifies 4th, is forced to take spare car for the restart and retires after one lap.
USA: Capelli 8th at the retirement moment (gearbox), ahead of eventual 2nd and 3rd placed drivers.
France: Capelli retires from 2nd place (engine)
UK: Capelli retires from 7th (differential, only quarter gone though), Gugelmin from 5th with less than 10 laps to go (gearbox).
Germany: Gugelmin retires from 5th (gearbox) with about two thirds gone.
Italy: Capelli retires halfway through from 8th, ahead of 5th placed Alesi (engine).

That is truly awful luck for a team like them What's that amount to? About 20-30 points lost through mechanical problems I think. Shocking.

AdrianSutil wrote:

Bleu wrote:

Shizuka wrote:March in 1989?

Gugelmin scored a podium at Rio with the 1988 car, after that, no points.

They had horrible reliability.

Monaco: Capelli 6th, retires just over lap to go due to electrial problem.
Mexico: Capelli qualifies 4th, is forced to take spare car for the restart and retires after one lap.
USA: Capelli 8th at the retirement moment (gearbox), ahead of eventual 2nd and 3rd placed drivers.
France: Capelli retires from 2nd place (engine)
UK: Capelli retires from 7th (differential, only quarter gone though), Gugelmin from 5th with less than 10 laps to go (gearbox).
Germany: Gugelmin retires from 5th (gearbox) with about two thirds gone.
Italy: Capelli retires halfway through from 8th, ahead of 5th placed Alesi (engine).

That is truly awful luck for a team like them What's that amount to? About 20-30 points lost through mechanical problems I think. Shocking.

Luck? I say blame Adrian Newey

I didnt know March ever had a car that fast, I picked up on F1 in 90. Guess it was one of those fast but unreliable one. Very good positions to be retiring from...

Sublime_FA11C wrote:I didnt know March ever had a car that fast, I picked up on F1 in 90. Guess it was one of those fast but unreliable one. Very good positions to be retiring from...

Arguably, the 1988 March was the third-best car on the grid, behind Ferrari and that team from Woking who won virtually everthing that year...

The 1990 March (or Leyton House) went from being one of the worst cars on the grid, to being probably the best of the rest behind the Big 4.

East Londoner wrote:

Sublime_FA11C wrote:I didnt know March ever had a car that fast, I picked up on F1 in 90. Guess it was one of those fast but unreliable one. Very good positions to be retiring from...

Arguably, the 1988 March was the third-best car on the grid, behind Ferrari and that team from Woking who won virtually everthing that year...

The 1990 March (or Leyton House) went from being one of the worst cars on the grid, to being probably the best of the rest behind the Big 4.

March didn't run 1990, they were already Leyton House by then.

AdrianSutil wrote:

Bleu wrote:

Shizuka wrote:March in 1989?

Gugelmin scored a podium at Rio with the 1988 car, after that, no points.

They had horrible reliability.

Monaco: Capelli 6th, retires just over lap to go due to electrial problem.
Mexico: Capelli qualifies 4th, is forced to take spare car for the restart and retires after one lap.
USA: Capelli 8th at the retirement moment (gearbox), ahead of eventual 2nd and 3rd placed drivers.
France: Capelli retires from 2nd place (engine)
UK: Capelli retires from 7th (differential, only quarter gone though), Gugelmin from 5th with less than 10 laps to go (gearbox).
Germany: Gugelmin retires from 5th (gearbox) with about two thirds gone.
Italy: Capelli retires halfway through from 8th, ahead of 5th placed Alesi (engine).

That is truly awful luck for a team like them What's that amount to? About 20-30 points lost through mechanical problems I think. Shocking.

Wizzie wrote:Luck? I say blame Adrian Newey

You can certainly blame Newey for that - IIRC, Faustus mentioned that Newey was so obsessed with refining the aerodynamics of the car that it had a detrimental impact on the mechanical configuration of the car (which was relatively underdeveloped by comparison), as well as being uncomfortable to drive at full speed due to an awkward driver seating position.

midgrid wrote:BAR then racked up the reject points by basing the thoroughly mediocre 004 design for 2002 around this far-too-flexible chassis.

I dug out an old F1 Racing mag, which had a short interview with Geoff Willis, who arrived at BAR at the beginning of '02. He said that the car was lacking aerodynamically; he'd come straight out of a resurgent Williams which was far more advanced. Effectively, he denounced the car and probably canned the development quite early. I'd guess the 005 car was pretty much built from scratch under Willis' guidance, and we know how well BAR did with him.

eurobrun wrote:

East Londoner wrote:

Sublime_FA11C wrote:I didnt know March ever had a car that fast, I picked up on F1 in 90. Guess it was one of those fast but unreliable one. Very good positions to be retiring from...

Arguably, the 1988 March was the third-best car on the grid, behind Ferrari and that team from Woking who won virtually everthing that year...

The 1990 March (or Leyton House) went from being one of the worst cars on the grid, to being probably the best of the rest behind the Big 4.

March didn't run 1990, they were already Leyton House by then.

Still the same team, no? Anyway my memory is fuzzy on the early 90s. March/LeytonHouse i remember as a midfield team just making up the numbers. At least when Tyrell slumped the commentators could mention a bit of their succesfull history which, in my mind March never quite got. And i never realised they got so close.

F1 is unbeliveably tricky....

March changed to Leyton House in 1990. They were a sponsor from 1988, and then bought it out.

You can argue that all of its cars were very competitive, had money been put in the right areas.

Saying that, LH took an expensive punt to use Ilmor engines in 1991, an ambitious move for a midfield team to break into the 'big 4'. Ilmor had a great time in CART and Indy, and I guess naturally for a private British factory the next step was F1.

The Ilmor engine was powerful, light (compared to others) but not so reliable. The chassis had a big issue with the suspension, and it wasnt until Hungary that it was modified, hence Capelli finished 6th in that race, and was pretty competitive until the end of the season.

I guess the Ilmor engine didnt bear fruit until the 1992 season and beyond. Ilmor supplied Tyrrell and March (as it was known then as Akira Akagi, man behind L.House was sent to jail for fraud reasons) were competitive despite both teams having a year old chassis. Sauber were competetitive in 1993, Mercedes got involved in Ilmor, bought some of Ilmor out, and after a good season in 1994, Mercedes joined up with McLaren. The rest of history......

As for biggest drop-off over a single weekend, Pasta. Goes from pole and winning to starting last and retiring at the start.

darkapprentice77 wrote:As for biggest drop-off over a single weekend, Pasta. Goes from pole and winning to starting last and retiring at the start.

It wasn't entirely his fault that he started last, given the gearbox change.

Daniel Melrose - 2008

4 wins and second in the championship after Great Britain, scores a grand total of 17 points in the entire second half of the year.

i'm not sure about this but i think Williams performance in 2006 its a drop-off as well

aliefbielefeld wrote:i'm not sure about this but i think Williams performance in 2006 its a drop-off as well

Yep that seems right to me without having the chance to check their results in 2006.

I would also say Williams had a drop off in performance in 2005 also. Double podium finishers in Monaco & pole at the next race at Nurburgring. Then not much to shout about in the 2nd half of the season, after BMW annuoced they were leaving. No wonder why Webber got fed up with them.

Although it has to be said some credit for Williams poor performances in the 2nd half of 2005 must go to Pizzionia, subbing for Heidfeld (IIRC), who appeared to want to trash his car at any given opportunity.

Am I right in thinking Toyota & BAR also had a bit of a dropoff in performance in 2005?

I vividly remember at the start of 2005 BAR were hyping themselves up as serious title contenders with Button.

ibsey wrote:

aliefbielefeld wrote:i'm not sure about this but i think Williams performance in 2006 its a drop-off as well

Yep that seems right to me without having the chance to check their results in 2006.

I would also say Williams had a drop off in performance in 2005 also. Double podium finishers in Monaco & pole at the next race at Nurburgring. Then not much to shout about in the 2nd half of the season, after BMW annuoced they were leaving. No wonder why Webber got fed up with them.

Although it has to be said some credit for Williams poor performances in the 2nd half of 2005 must go to Pizzionia, subbing for Heidfeld (IIRC), who appeared to want to trash his car at any given opportunity.

Am I right in thinking Toyota & BAR also had a bit of a dropoff in performance in 2005?

I vividly remember at the start of 2005 BAR were hyping themselves up as serious title contenders with Button.

I think you will find BAR had the exact oppisite of a performance dropoff during 2005

eurobrun wrote:

ibsey wrote:

aliefbielefeld wrote:i'm not sure about this but i think Williams performance in 2006 its a drop-off as well

Yep that seems right to me without having the chance to check their results in 2006.

I would also say Williams had a drop off in performance in 2005 also. Double podium finishers in Monaco & pole at the next race at Nurburgring. Then not much to shout about in the 2nd half of the season, after BMW annuoced they were leaving. No wonder why Webber got fed up with them.

Although it has to be said some credit for Williams poor performances in the 2nd half of 2005 must go to Pizzionia, subbing for Heidfeld (IIRC), who appeared to want to trash his car at any given opportunity.

Am I right in thinking Toyota & BAR also had a bit of a dropoff in performance in 2005?

I vividly remember at the start of 2005 BAR were hyping themselves up as serious title contenders with Button.

I think you will find BAR had the exact oppisite of a performance dropoff during 2005

Oh yes...how could I forget Honda's 'Suzuka Special' engines. Thanks for reminding me.

darkapprentice77 wrote:As for biggest drop-off over a single weekend, Pasta. Goes from pole and winning to starting last and retiring at the start.

I won a race?

BAR seemed to hype themselves up as title challengers every year, when they inevitably disappointed no one was surprised.

What I did notice about BAR (and something that persists to this day) is they have a "mid season slump". They would start reasonably strong, fade away in the mid season and come back again at the end, they did it in 2004 (where Renault seemed to be #2 in the middle of the year), 2006 (Button scored some decent results early on, they were nowhere in the middle, then scored well at the end of the year) and probably most famously in 2009, where at one point mid season it looked like they had slipped behind Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari, Force India, Toyota, Alonso's Renault, yet by the end of the year they were pretty close with McLaren for second fastest.

It looks like something similar is happening this year, lots of promise and an early win, but right now they look like they're behind RBR, Hamilton, Alonso and Lotus and slipping back towards Sauber and Williams.

1989 was very interesting because it can be divided in two parts considering ups and downs with the smallest teams.

Not only Rial but also AGS and, to some extent, Coloni got the year off the ground in a much better shape than eventually end up it. Tarquini scored a point and Mexico and could have done it in Imola, Monaco and Phoenix. However, after Paul Ricard, the team couldn't qualify anymore (Poor Dalmas, he left Larrousse just before the team initiated a growing trend and moved to a AGS that went downhill right away...). Regarding of Coloni, the team seemed to have better chances in the first semester (except Portugal) even having the old yellow FC188 car. Maybe the fact they were abandoned into pre-qualifying could have made all the things way harder.

On the second semester, on the other hand, Onyx, Larrousse and mainly Minardi emerged from scratch and began to threat the big teams for the first positions. The podium of Johansson in Portugal, the good qualifying efforts of Alliot and specially the superb Pierluigi Martini really drove a bit of interest in that McLarenesque year.

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Another example for this topic is Sauber in 2001. Started the year fighting Jordan and even Williams for 4ths and 5ths and ended up settled in the mid-pack, barely scoring one point.

Verde wrote:Another example for this topic is Sauber in 2001. Started the year fighting Jordan and even Williams for 4ths and 5ths and ended up settled in the mid-pack, barely scoring one point.

They weren't really fighting Jordan in 2001, mostly because the hornets only made it about 10 laps before something broke or got taken out

Wizzie wrote:

Verde wrote:Another example for this topic is Sauber in 2001. Started the year fighting Jordan and even Williams for 4ths and 5ths and ended up settled in the mid-pack, barely scoring one point.

They weren't really fighting Jordan in 2001, mostly because the hornets only made it about 10 laps before something broke or got taken out

The "Buzzin Hornets" nose art stopped being used at the end of 2000, it was a shark in 2001

eurobrun wrote:

Wizzie wrote:

Verde wrote:Another example for this topic is Sauber in 2001. Started the year fighting Jordan and even Williams for 4ths and 5ths and ended up settled in the mid-pack, barely scoring one point.

They weren't really fighting Jordan in 2001, mostly because the hornets only made it about 10 laps before something broke or got taken out

The "Buzzin Hornets" nose art stopped being used at the end of 2000, it was a shark in 2001

"Bitten Heroes" in 2001 wasn't it? Used to love them nose art's.

AdrianSutil wrote:

eurobrun wrote:

Wizzie wrote:They weren't really fighting Jordan in 2001, mostly because the hornets only made it about 10 laps before something broke or got taken out

The "Buzzin Hornets" nose art stopped being used at the end of 2000, it was a shark in 2001

"Bitten Heroes" in 2001 wasn't it? Used to love them nose art's.

Yes, Bitten Heroes was from 2001. (On GP4 at least)

Verde wrote:Another example for this topic is Sauber in 2001. Started the year fighting Jordan and even Williams for 4ths and 5ths and ended up settled in the mid-pack, barely scoring one point.

Sauber indeed had this for years: being good in the midfield in the beginning, no upgrades on the car, not scoring much in the end - I remember 1999 and 2000 like that.
Or 2003? 8 points in the first races, then one mid-season, then 10, thanks to Indy and its weather conditions.

Tyrrell in 1990-1991.

Okay, I can forgive 1990.

But Tyrrell in 1991: Title sponsorship: Braun Electrical (shavers etc), Honda V-10 engines (okay 1990 V-10 spec, but those engines did the double in 1990), further sponsorship, a revolutionary design (concorde beak) and two handy drivers (Naka was okay, Modena was the next big thing)

I did a little research:

USA: Modena 4th, Nakajima 5th
San Marino: Both cars running in points, but both retire with gearbox. Modena would have easily podiumed if he kept going.
Monaco: Modena qualifies 2nd, and ran second until engine explodes in tunnell. Would have kept 2nd
Canada: Modena finishes 2nd, race best know for Mansells waving to the crowd and hitting ignition in process gate. Would have at least finished 3rd.

No further points until Japan, with 6th to Modena. 12 POINTS all up.

Saying that, the late Harvey Postlethwaite left after Mexico, to join a new team called Sauber, but returned I think a year later or so.

I vaugely recall an reading an interview years ago, where R Schumi explained that Jordan in 1997 had a bit of a drop off in performance. Ralf put this down to Fisico & himself, who were still rookies at that time, not being experienced enough to be able to develop the car correctly.

And yet, still Fisichella finished 2nd in Spa and 4th in Monza...

Shizuka wrote:And yet, still Fisichella finished 2nd in Spa and 4th in Monza...

Fisichella always did do well in Spa though.

Podium in 2001 with that crapbox Benetton
5th in 2004. Yes he finished behind Massa, although could have scored a podium had he not damaged the undertray iirc.
Pole and 2nd in 2009 for Force India.

redbulljack14 wrote:

Shizuka wrote:And yet, still Fisichella finished 2nd in Spa and 4th in Monza...

Fisichella always did do well in Spa though.

Podium in 2001 with that crapbox Benetton
5th in 2004. Yes he finished behind Massa, although could have scored a podium had he not damaged the undertray iirc.
Pole and 2nd in 2009 for Force India.

I might add that Spa 1997 race was held in mixed conditions where Fisco inhertied 2nd position due to a mechical problem with Jean Alesi Benetton, which caused Alesi to pit serveral times late in the race. Also we all know about JV's & Williams poor strategy that day. I think Qualifying (which IIRC was held in the dry) would be more representive of the pace of Fisco & Jordan, relative to the other cars & drivers. Off the top of my head I think Fisco qualified 5th??? (I tried checking Wiki but couldn't find the info)

Nevertheless, In addition to the very valid point about Fisco being especially good at Spa. Also remember that the Peugeot engine in the back of their Jordan's were considered amongst the most powerful engines around that time. Therefore you would expect them to push the Jordan chassis perhaps further up the grid on these power tracks like Spa & Monza, than they otherwise might have been. Also I would say from 1996 to 2002 the Jordan chassis had historically performed better at the power tracks like Spa, Monza, Hockenhiem & even Canada then they have at other more conventional tracks.

To support this point, just look at the last race of the 1997 season at Jerez (a circuit used extensively for testing therefore one might consider it more conventional than Spa or Monza). The Jordans qualified in 16th & 17th position.

Whislt on the point of 1997, do we think the Williams drop off in performance throughout that season. Particularly in the wake of the departure of Adrian Newey & Renualt leaving them at the end of 1997.

ibsey wrote:To support this point, just look at the last race of the 1997 season at Jerez (a circuit used extensively for testing therefore one might consider it more conventional than Spa or Monza). The Jordans qualified in 16th & 17th position.

One has to take into consideration though that all the Bridgestone teams did well that day with Damon hill an exceptional 4th on the grid and nearly took pole in the shitbox of an Arrows and Panis ended up 9th (after his career changing crash, mind you). This was a trend throughout 1997 that many of the midfield teams were at the mercy of how well the respective tyre brands held up on any given weekend.

Wizzie wrote:

ibsey wrote:To support this point, just look at the last race of the 1997 season at Jerez (a circuit used extensively for testing therefore one might consider it more conventional than Spa or Monza). The Jordans qualified in 16th & 17th position.

One has to take into consideration though that all the Bridgestone teams did well that day with Damon hill an exceptional 4th on the grid and nearly took pole in the shitbox of an Arrows and Panis ended up 9th (after his career changing crash, mind you). This was a trend throughout 1997 that many of the midfield teams were at the mercy of how well the respective tyre brands held up on any given weekend.

Good point well made. Therefore looking at the race before Jerez at Suzuka, where I don't recall Bridgestone teams having had such a massive advantage. In the race both Jordans finished behind Johnny Herbert in a Sauber. I think part of that may have been down to them trying a 3 stop compared to others on a 2 stop... I can't quite remember exactly. But even if they were, I'm pretty sure Benetton, who finshed well ahead of their respective Jordan rival, were on that same strategy as well & the Jordans had been fighthing pretty closely with Benetton up until that point.

Another performance drop off in a season I've just remember is Lotus in 1988. I guess when your lead driver seems to lose motivation as Nelson Piquet appear to do in 1988, then it is only inevitable the whole team will suffer as a result. Actually thinking about it now, I'm suprised all the other F1 teams in 1988 didn't just give up the prospect of trying to beat the combination of Senna, Prost, a Gordan Murray designed Mclaren Chassis & Honda turbo engines.

I think this is a very interesting topic so i will reignite it if you will

Force India look like doing it this year having scored a grand total of 3 points since the change in the construction of the Pirelli tires while Paul di Resta has fallen in Q1 in 5 of the last 8 races too.

In 2010 Force India fell off again. Sutil had a run of 6 races in the points between Spain and GB and they had 47 points after that race. However apart from Belgium they never made Q3 again and were even struggling to get out of Q1 at times. Discounting Sutil's 5th in Belgium and Liuzzi's 6th in Korea Force India scored only 4 points after GB and went from an easy 6th in the teams championship to being beaten by Williams who finished Strongly.

Mercedes last year deserves a mention as well. They had Rosberg win in China and come 2nd in Monaco and Schumi was on the podium in Valencia but after Germany Mercedes scored a mere 37 points 14 of these coming from a 6-7 finish at Monza and another 10 coming from Rosberg's 5th in Singapore. Nico would not score again after that race and Schumi only had a 7th in Brazil to show in the last 6 races too

Sauber in 2011. In the first 9 races, they scored 33 but in the next 10 races they scored 11.

One of my favourites is Red Bull in 2008 when as soon as J+E said that their was no sign that they would fall back, they did! Up to and including France they scored 24 points but then in the last 10 events they scored just 5, many of which being by default. Of course RBR slipped from 4th to 7th and were beaten by none other than STR.

I'm sure this has been mentioned before but Benetton had bad drop offs in 1998-2000.

1998

First 9 races - 32
Next 7 races - 1

1999

First 9 races - 16
Last 7 races - 0

2000

First 8 races - 18
Next 9 races - 2

Arrows appeared to have no development in 1999, with their only point being in the first race. I think Jordan also slumped at the end of 1999. The moment Frentzen stopped at the Nurburgring from 1st place appeared to kick-start their 5-year downhill slide.

Sergio Perez in 2012, failed to score a single point after being confirmed as switching to McLaren for 2013, Kamui Kobayashi ended up just 6 points behind him in the end and Sauber lost out on a chance to leapfrog Mercedes in the Constructor's Championship.

Having said that, Mercedes' 2012 Season tailed off at the same time as Perez's, except they managed to secure a solitary 7th place in that time.

Alfa Romeo this year are worthy of a mention. 51 points in the first 9 races but only 4 points in the last 12 with team leader Valterri Bottas going 11 in a row without a point. They’ve gone from potentially beating Alpine and McLaren for 4th to barely holding off Aston Martin for 6th.

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote: ↑16 Nov 2022, 20:06 Alfa Romeo this year are worthy of a mention. 51 points in the first 9 races but only 4 points in the last 12 with team leader Valterri Bottas going 11 in a row without a point. They’ve gone from potentially beating Alpine and McLaren for 4th to barely holding off Aston Martin for 6th.

I was just thinking of Alfa Romeo this year myself.

Arrows, or rather Ricardo Patrese, in 1981. First pole, two podiums and a near-miss at points in the first 4 races, then nothing better than a 10th place thereafter.