Grand Prix Rejects

I was looking at the results of the 1998 F1 season, and one thing that struck me was the Benetton team. Up to the Austrian GP, they were undoubtably best of the rest behind McLaren and Ferrari, with a string of consistant 4th and 5th places from Alex Wurz, a pair of podiums from Fisichella and that amazing pole position in Austria. After that race though, the team only scored one more point for the rest of the season. I wonder what happened there for such a drop off in performance?

Which got me thinking, what other teams/drivers have started a season like a greyhound, only to finish it like a snail, and why? This thread doesn't have to be confined to F1, any race series can be discussed...

Lotus last year comes to mind ; two 3rd places at the start of they year, followed by fighting the Toro Rossos by Monza.

East Londoner wrote:I was looking at the results of the 1998 F1 season, and one thing that struck me was the Benetton team. Up to the Austrian GP, they were undoubtably best of the rest behind McLaren and Ferrari, with a string of consistant 4th and 5th places from Alex Wurz, a pair of podiums from Fisichella and that amazing pole position in Austria. After that race though, the team only scored one more point for the rest of the season. I wonder what happened there for such a drop off in performance?

They swapped with Jordan.

Benetton also suffered from a similar drop in 1999 and 2000. Another example would be Williams in 2005: they were doing alright up until Indianapolis. Then it went downhill.

Ligier started 1986 ahead of Ferrari but they waned badly towards the end of the year.

Lotus in 1979 is another very clear example. Reutemann was scoring podiums and points up until France; then, the only result of note was Andretti's 5th place at Italy, behind Niki Lauda, who himself wasn't having a brilliant year. And more often than not both cars would retire. It was all because of the failure the 80 model was and the fact they had to keep the 79, but still...

If I'm not wrong Toyota had a podium with Ralf Schumacher in Australian GP 2006, which was third race, and two fourth places with Trulli and Ralf in mid-season, and no other notable results in the following races.

Brawn! Ridiculously dominant in the first half of the season, midfielders by the end.

kostas22 wrote:Brawn! Ridiculously dominant in the first half of the season, midfielders by the end.

Not exactly midfielders, since Barrichello and Button ran usually in or at near the front.

BMW in 2008. As good as McLaren and Ferrari up until they won in Canada, then were at the same level as Renault, Toyota and even Toro Rosso.

redbulljack14 wrote:BMW in 2008. As good as McLaren and Ferrari up until they won in Canada, then dropped behind Renault, Toyota and even Toro Rosso.

Not quite. They may have dropped behind Renault, but they were better than Toro Rosso and, for sure, Toyota. And they weren't as good as Ferrari and McLaren to begin with.

Phoenix wrote:

redbulljack14 wrote:BMW in 2008. As good as McLaren and Ferrari up until they won in Canada, then dropped behind Renault, Toyota and even Toro Rosso.

Not quite. They may have dropped behind Renault, but they were better than Toro Rosso and, for sure, Toyota. And they weren't as good as Ferrari and McLaren to begin with.

Due mostly in part to them switching focus to 2009 wasn't it? Scuppered Kubica's title aspirations and when the 2009 car turned out to be a complete dog, the writing was on the wall.

AndreaModa wrote:

Phoenix wrote:

redbulljack14 wrote:BMW in 2008. As good as McLaren and Ferrari up until they won in Canada, then dropped behind Renault, Toyota and even Toro Rosso.

Not quite. They may have dropped behind Renault, but they were better than Toro Rosso and, for sure, Toyota. And they weren't as good as Ferrari and McLaren to begin with.

Due mostly in part to them switching focus to 2009 wasn't it? Scuppered Kubica's title aspirations and when the 2009 car turned out to be a complete dog, the writing was on the wall.

It definitely was because of that. Kubica would have definitely finished ahead of Kimi, even Quick Nick may have won a race.

Phoenix wrote:Benetton also suffered from a similar drop in 1999 and 2000. Another example would be Williams in 2005: they were doing alright up until Indianapolis. Then it went downhill.

Ligier started 1986 ahead of Ferrari but they waned badly towards the end of the year.

Lotus in 1979 is another very clear example. Reutemann was scoring podiums and points up until France; then, the only result of note was Andretti's 5th place at Italy, behind Niki Lauda, who himself wasn't having a brilliant year. And more often than not both cars would retire. It was all because of the failure the 80 model was and the fact they had to keep the 79, but still...

Ligier also slid back somewhat in 1979, although that was due to a wide range of problems (a chronic lack of funding, an ill judged change in wind tunnel which cost them development time due to recalibration and Guy Ligier making several poor management decisions).

As for Lotus, it is interesting to consider what might have happened if they had pushed on with development of the 79 instead of banking everything on the 80, given that the 79 remained reasonably competitive at the beginning of 1979. Reutemann was 5th in the WDC come Monaco - the last podium that Lotus had with the 79 - with the 20 points that were allowed to count towards his points total, with Scheckter leading on 30 (if Reutemann has been allowed to keep all of the points he had scored, he'd have actually been 2nd in the WDC with 25 points).

Speaking of performance slumps in the 1970's, another one could be Ferrari in the 1971 season - they started that season with two wins in four races and were leading the WCC after the Dutch GP, whilst Ickx took a win and two podiums in that time frame to be 2nd, five points behind Stewart, in the WDC. After that, Ickx only made it to the finish once in the next seven races (and that was in a distant 8th place), whilst Ferrari slipped behind BRM in the WCC and only beat March on count back (being tied with the team on 33 points).

East Londoner wrote:I was looking at the results of the 1998 F1 season, and one thing that struck me was the Benetton team. Up to the Austrian GP, they were undoubtably best of the rest behind McLaren and Ferrari, with a string of consistant 4th and 5th places from Alex Wurz, a pair of podiums from Fisichella and that amazing pole position in Austria. After that race though, the team only scored one more point for the rest of the season. I wonder what happened there for such a drop off in performance?

At the time, David Richards blamed Bridgestone for (justifiably in my opinion) concentrating on McLaren in the latter half of the season in the hope of securing its first championship, and thus bringing tyres that didn't suit the B198 as well as had been the case earlier on. I believe that, irrespective of Bridgestone's focus, Goodyear improved its own tyres, allowing Jordan and Williams to leapfrog Benetton in the race behind the McLarens and Ferraris. Additionally, Jordan outdeveloped everyone else during the course of the year.

I would nominate Shadow in 1975 - a stunning opening two meetings from Jean-Pierre Jarier, who nevertheless failed to deliver on that initial promise for the remainder of the season; and Sauber in 2002 - fighting with Renault and McLaren in the first part of the season, before falling catastrophically off the pace at Spa and then struggling to emerge from the midfield thereafter.

Minardi in 2002: 5th at the first race, nowhere the rest of the season.

Ferrim wrote:Minardi in 2002: 5th at the first race, nowhere the rest of the season.

Even Alex Yoong finished 7th in the first race. Any year after 2002, that would have resulted in points.

Jenson Button in 2009. Won the WDC, but no wins after Turkey.

Rial in 1989, Danner sometimes qualified the car early on in the season and finished every race he started, even scoring 3 points. After Canada, the team couldn't start a single race.

Looking at Wikipedia, they seemed to have the slowest car in the second half of the season. Considering there were teams like Eurobrun, Coloni and Zakspeed, that's embarrassing.

Williams in 1983 but that's becuase it took them until the last race to get a turbo.

Ferrari in 1985 - leading the championship mid-season, qualifying midfield and blowing up by the end of the European season.

Jordan in 2003 - I know the Brazil win was lucky but they were in the top 10 on merit - by the end of the year they struggled to beat any other team apart from Minardi.

darkapprentice77 wrote:Jenson Button in 2009. Won the WDC, but no wins after Turkey.

He didnt't even lead a lap after Turkey, IIRC. And his only podiums after then were at Monza and Abu Dhabi. Still, he was continually racking up the points, so it wasn't that big of a drop-off.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

darkapprentice77 wrote:Jenson Button in 2009. Won the WDC, but no wins after Turkey.

He didnt't even lead a lap after Turkey, IIRC. And his only podiums after then were at Monza and Abu Dhabi. Still, he was continually racking up the points, so it wasn't that big of a drop-off.

He only won the title due to winning 6 of the first 7 races mind. But still deserved it (I mean, the DDD deserved it )

What about Super Aguri 2007? They had a not so bad start in the beginning part of the season, with Sato scoring team's first point in Spain and fighting with Alonso's McLaren and catching sixth position in Canada. After that, I don't remember any good result from them.

Sunshine_Baby_[IT] reminded me of something over in the Longest Career Without Doing Anything thread. Jacques Villeneuve should be dominated for biggest drop-off in performance over a career. He went from being a championship contender two years running to the driver that nobody wanted.

pasta_maldonado wrote:Sunshine_Baby_[IT] reminded me of something over in the Longest Career Without Doing Anything thread. Jacques Villeneuve should be dominated for biggest drop-off in performance over a career. He went from being a championship contender two years running to the driver that nobody wanted.

And 'musician' that no-one wanted

His music-career can still drop-off even more, though. Be prepared!

Sunshine_Baby_[IT] wrote:What about Super Aguri 2007? They had a not so bad start in the beginning part of the season, with Sato scoring team's first point in Spain and fighting with Alonso's McLaren and catching sixth position in Canada. After that, I don't remember any good result from them.

Only because they pretty much hit the ceiling development wise on how they could get anything more out of that hand-me-down Honda. Not that it mattered much as they spent virtually the entire season bashing their bigger brother's ugly face in

Wizzie wrote:

Sunshine_Baby_[IT] wrote:What about Super Aguri 2007? They had a not so bad start in the beginning part of the season, with Sato scoring team's first point in Spain and fighting with Alonso's McLaren and catching sixth position in Canada. After that, I don't remember any good result from them.

Only because they pretty much hit the ceiling development wise on how they could get anything more out of that hand-me-down Honda. Not that it mattered much as they spent virtually the entire season bashing their bigger brother's ugly face in

And considering their first season was spent making a four year old Arrows chassis reasonably competitive showed they weren't fools. And how a loved seeing them beat Honda nearly every weekend in 2007

First thing that came to mind when I read this topic was:::



JARNO TRULLI in 2004.

Had some great results early in 2004, a few podiums, a win in Monaco, then came a error in France, loosing 3rd place in France on last corner, than (correct if im wrong, I get lost sometimes!) had a suspension failure in Britain which saw him crash heavily.

But from that French race, didnt score a point on memory, Briatoire was a little against him, and was dropped by China replaced by Villeneuve.

BTW, I remember my mate, a big fan of JV and remember him saying that he would be mighty dissapointed if the Canadian didnt score a point or two in the Renault...

Well, wasnt he wrong!

David AGS wrote:JARNO TRULLI in 2004.

Had some great results early in 2004, a few podiums, a win in Monaco, then came a error in France, loosing 3rd place in France on last corner, than (correct if im wrong, I get lost sometimes!) had a suspension failure in Britain which saw him crash heavily.

But from that French race, didnt score a point on memory, Briatoire was a little against him, and was dropped by China replaced by Villeneuve.

Flavio and Trulli fell out badly after France and he became a persona non grata after that point

Tyrrell 1996?

Points very on early in the season, at Monaco had 5 points up, didnt trouble scorers for another year!

Arguably the start of their demise.

But similar but different topic, biggest drop offs between race by race.

Arrows A21 2000. On a low downforce, that car used to fly, but at Monaco, Hungary and other slower tracks was no where.

I know the stats will show they scored only 7 points, but could have had at least 15+ with a reliable gearbox

David AGS wrote:But similar but different topic, biggest drop offs between race by race.

Arrows A21 2000. On a low downforce, that car used to fly, but at Monaco, Hungary and other slower tracks was no where.

I know the stats will show they scored only 7 points, but could have had at least 15+ with a reliable gearbox

Eghbal Hamidy designed the chassis with all that in mind. It was usually the fastest in a straight line but suffered fromoverall downforce due to it being a 'slippery' chassis. I remember De La Rosa could have and should have had a podium at Austria until the aforementioned gearbox failed.

David AGS wrote:First thing that came to mind when I read this topic was:::



JARNO TRULLI in 2004.

Had some great results early in 2004, a few podiums, a win in Monaco, then came a error in France, loosing 3rd place in France on last corner, than (correct if im wrong, I get lost sometimes!) had a suspension failure in Britain which saw him crash heavily.

But from that French race, didnt score a point on memory, Briatoire was a little against him, and was dropped by China replaced by Villeneuve.

YES! How could we have all forgot this. Barrichello passing him for 3rd at the very end pretty much screwed him over.

How about Jordan in 2001?

They started the year with a reasonably competitive car. IIRC they outqualified DC's Mclaren at Melbourne & had good showings at Imola & Brazil. Then of course there was the big fall out between Frentzen & EJ, after which Jordan progressive fell further down the midfield pecking order.

Also to a lesser extent Jaguar in 2000. Irvine had a promising race in 5th place at Brazil, before crashing out. I vaugaley remember Irv rather lame excuse for his crash was something along the lines of... "he wasn't used to the front runners pulling away from his like that, so pushed the car too hard". If my memory serves me correctly I don't think Jaguar looked as competitive towards the end of the year.

Finally Sauber tend to be reknown for the starting a season with a compeitive car before fading, as the development war with other teams gets going.

redbulljack14 wrote:

David AGS wrote:First thing that came to mind when I read this topic was:::



JARNO TRULLI in 2004.

Had some great results early in 2004, a few podiums, a win in Monaco, then came a error in France, loosing 3rd place in France on last corner, than (correct if im wrong, I get lost sometimes!) had a suspension failure in Britain which saw him crash heavily.

But from that French race, didnt score a point on memory, Briatoire was a little against him, and was dropped by China replaced by Villeneuve.

YES! How could we have all forgot this. Barrichello passing him for 3rd at the very end pretty much screwed him over.

It didn't help that the F2004 was the fastest car by a long way, and that Schumacher had Barrichello as a pet monkey to help him out. Why were the 2004 cars so fast? Unless I'm very much mistaken they hold the lap record on all the tracks that were the same in 2004

Onyx's 1989? From the profile:

In the Onyx's profile, Jamie/Enoch wrote:Onyx had promise upon entering F1: decent drivers, a good designer and ready cashflow. But a turbulent two years saw results like a podium 3rd place forgotten amidst backroom squabbles, personality clashes and absurd team management.

Sums everything nicely.

FMecha wrote:Onyx's 1989? From the profile:

In the Onyx's profile, Jamie/Enoch wrote:Onyx had promise upon entering F1: decent drivers, a good designer and ready cashflow. But a turbulent two years saw results like a podium 3rd place forgotten amidst backroom squabbles, personality clashes and absurd team management.

Sums everything nicely.

No, they actually improved in performance in 1989, from being rooted in pre-qualifying hell for the first half of the season, to easily qualifying both cars regularily, finishing races and that PODIUM in Portugal.

1990, they went from starting races regularily to being the worst team on the grid, bar the lifeless Life team...

East Londoner wrote:

FMecha wrote:Onyx's 1989? From the profile:

In the Onyx's profile, Jamie/Enoch wrote:Onyx had promise upon entering F1: decent drivers, a good designer and ready cashflow. But a turbulent two years saw results like a podium 3rd place forgotten amidst backroom squabbles, personality clashes and absurd team management.

Sums everything nicely.

No, they actually improved in performance in 1989, from being rooted in pre-qualifying hell for the first half of the season, to easily qualifying both cars regularily, finishing races and that PODIUM in Portugal.

1990, they went from starting races regularily to being the worst team on the grid, bar the lifeless Life team...

Gah! Should have specified 1990... REJECT OF THE THREAD.

East Londoner wrote:No, they actually improved in performance in 1989, from being rooted in pre-qualifying hell for the first half of the season, to easily qualifying both cars regularily, finishing races and that PODIUM in Portugal.

Somewhat the opposite of Rial that year, except Rial weren't in pre-qualifying in the second half of the year, but they should have been there, they probably had the worst car on the grid towards the end of the year.

pasta_maldonado wrote:It didn't help that the F2004 was the fastest car by a long way, and that Schumacher had Barrichello as a pet monkey to help him out. Why were the 2004 cars so fast? Unless I'm very much mistaken they hold the lap record on all the tracks that were the same in 2004

The only exception to that is Suzuka, where Kimi currently holds the lap record (set during the 2005 season), although there have been a few circuits where the drivers were slightly quicker in qualifying than the 2004 cars were in race trim (Suzuka is again the classic example, as Massa's pole time of 1m29.6s in 2006 is the quickest lap anybody has done around Suzuka, although technically it does not count as the fastest ever lap because it was set in qualifying rather than the race).

As to why the 2004 cars were so fast, well, part of that is simply down to raw power - those cars were almost at the very end of the 3.0L V10 engine cycle in F1, so the cars were some of the most powerful normally aspirated cars to ever hit the track (the front running engines were putting out in excess of 900bhp in that era, whereas the V8's that came afterwards are probably putting out closer to 760bhp). In fact, it could be argued that the cars from around 2004-2005 were some of the most powerful ever in race trim - only some of the turbocharged cars from around 1986-87 might have matched them in race trim (in qualifying trim, the turbocharged cars might have been more powerful, but in race trim most of the cars produced closer to 900bhp). Additionally, the FIA had only just started introducing the "long life" components at around that time - the 2004 engines had to last one race weekend - so the engineers could push closer to the limit in their search for additional power and performance.

Next, you have to bear in mind that the rule book was somewhat looser compared to today - there was no mandated minimum weight for the engines and the minimum weight of the cars was slightly lower (605kg for the start of qualifying, 600kg minimum in race trim after allowing for component wear). The teams were also permitted to use a greater number of aerodynamic flip ups and aero appendages - a greater number of rear wing elements, greater flexibility over the placement of bare boards, being able to run the front wings closer to the ground (yielding more front downforce) etc. - which would mean that they produced a considerable amount of downforce (plus, since they had additional power, they could afford to run with slightly more aggressive wings than they could in the V8 era).
Added to that, although there have been considerable improvements in CFD modelling and computational power since 2004, against that you could do much more wind tunnel and trackside testing compared to now, plus other aspects (like telemetry systems) were not as tightly regulated as now (e.g. two way telemetry systems, where the teams could not just record but send data back to the car (say, to change an engine map), were still permitted at the time).

On top of that, you had the benefit of bespoke tyres for the top teams and a full blown tyre war pushing both sides to produce ever better tyres, so although they were still using grooved tyres at the time compared to slicks in other eras, mechanical grip would have still been quite good. All in all, therefore, the 2004 cars were so fast because they were close to the peaks in downforce, power and mechanical grip.

ibsey wrote:How about Jordan in 2001?

They started the year with a reasonably competitive car. IIRC they outqualified DC's Mclaren at Melbourne & had good showings at Imola & Brazil. Then of course there was the big fall out between Frentzen & EJ, after which Jordan progressive fell further down the midfield pecking order.

I'd say that this was overshadowed by BAR's even more noticeable drop down the field, from points-scorers at the beginning of the season to frequently being embarrassed by Alonso's Minardi by the end (and Benetton doing the same thing in reverse). This was caused by the chassis not being rigid enough and flexing under load, rendering set-up changes and development rather less useless than on an acceptably stiff car. It's basically the same problem that Jaguar had in 2002, but not quite as severe.

BAR then racked up the reject points by basing the thoroughly mediocre 004 design for 2002 around this far-too-flexible chassis.

mario wrote:

pasta_maldonado wrote:It didn't help that the F2004 was the fastest car by a long way, and that Schumacher had Barrichello as a pet monkey to help him out. Why were the 2004 cars so fast? Unless I'm very much mistaken they hold the lap record on all the tracks that were the same in 2004

The only exception to that is Suzuka, where Kimi currently holds the lap record (set during the 2005 season), although there have been a few circuits where the drivers were slightly quicker in qualifying than the 2004 cars were in race trim (Suzuka is again the classic example, as Massa's pole time of 1m29.6s in 2006 is the quickest lap anybody has done around Suzuka, although technically it does not count as the fastest ever lap because it was set in qualifying rather than the race).

Raikkonen also holds the fastest lap ever around Monaco with his Q2 lap in 2006.