The Formula 1 Rejects Teams Association (F1RTA) Thread

SuperAguri · Post by **SuperAguri** » 12 Mar 2014, 19:06

F1RTA MEMBER: SuperAguri
F1RWRS TEAM: Kamaha Racing Team

Do you wish to see the Formula 1 Rejects World Race Series renamed?
[ ] Yes, change to Reject World Series (X) [RWSx]
[ ] Yes, change to a name to be defined later (not RWSx)
[x] No, leave it as it is
[ ] Abstain

If a name change goes ahead, should the series' history be retconned (rewritten) to reflect the new name?
[ ] Yes, retcon every season from 2010 onwards with the new name
[x] No, any name change shoud commence from 2017, and everything 2016 and earlier left as it is
[ ] Abstain

Post by **tommykl** » 12 Mar 2014, 19:21

F1RTA MEMBER: tommykl
F1RWRS TEAM: Gillet-Ecurie Nationale Belge

Do you wish to see the Formula 1 Rejects World Race Series renamed?
[x] Yes, change to Reject World Series (X) [RWSx]
[ ] Yes, change to a name to be defined later (not RWSx)
[ ] No, leave it as it is
[ ] Abstain

If a name change goes ahead, should the series' history be retconned (rewritten) to reflect the new name?
[ ] Yes, retcon every season from 2010 onwards with the new name
[x] No, any name change shoud commence from 2017, and everything 2016 and earlier left as it is
[ ] Abstain

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 12 Mar 2014, 20:41

TMLW
Holden Racing Team

Do you wish to see the Formula 1 Rejects World Race Series renamed?
[x] Yes, change to Reject World Series (X) [RWSx]
[ ] Yes, change to a name to be defined later (not RWSx)
[ ] No, leave it as it is
[ ] Abstain

If a name change goes ahead, should the series' history be retconned (rewritten) to reflect the new name?
[ ] Yes, retcon every season from 2010 onwards with the new name
[x] No, any name change shoud commence from 2017, and everything 2016 and earlier left as it is
[ ] Abstain

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 13 Mar 2014, 10:32

DanielPT
Sunshine Daihatsu

Do you wish to see the Formula 1 Rejects World Race Series renamed?
[ ] Yes, change to Reject World Series (X) [RWSx]
[ ] Yes, change to a name to be defined later (not RWSx)
[X] No, leave it as it is
[ ] Abstain

If a name change goes ahead, should the series' history be retconned (rewritten) to reflect the new name?
[ ] Yes, retcon every season from 2010 onwards with the new name
[X] No, any name change shoud commence from 2017, and everything 2016 and earlier left as it is
[ ] Abstain

Post by **Nuppiz** » 13 Mar 2014, 10:46

Nuppiz
Nurminen Grand Prix Engineering

Do you wish to see the Formula 1 Rejects World Race Series renamed?
[x] Yes, change to Reject World Series (X) [RWSx]
[ ] Yes, change to a name to be defined later (not RWSx)
[ ] No, leave it as it is
[ ] Abstain

If a name change goes ahead, should the series' history be retconned (rewritten) to reflect the new name?
[ ] Yes, retcon every season from 2010 onwards with the new name
[x] No, any name change shoud commence from 2017, and everything 2016 and earlier left as it is
[ ] Abstain

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 14 Mar 2014, 06:25

F1RTA MEMBER: Shizuka
F1RWRS TEAM: Revolution Engineering

Do you wish to see the Formula 1 Rejects World Race Series renamed?
[ ] Yes, change to Reject World Series (X) [RWSx]
[ ] Yes, change to a name to be defined later (not RWSx)
[x] No, leave it as it is
[ ] Abstain

If a name change goes ahead, should the series' history be retconned (rewritten) to reflect the new name?
[ ] Yes, retcon every season from 2010 onwards with the new name
[x] No, any name change shoud commence from 2017, and everything 2016 and earlier left as it is
[ ] Abstain

pasta_maldonado · Post by **pasta_maldonado** » 14 Mar 2014, 07:21

F1RTA MEMBER: Pasta
F1RWRS TEAM: Plus One Kingfisher Racing

Do you wish to see the Formula 1 Rejects World Race Series renamed?
[X] Yes, change to Reject World Series (X) [RWSx]
[ ] Yes, change to a name to be defined later (not RWSx)
[ ] No, leave it as it is
[ ] Abstain

If a name change goes ahead, should the series' history be retconned (rewritten) to reflect the new name?
[ ] Yes, retcon every season from 2010 onwards with the new name
[x] No, any name change shoud commence from 2017, and everything 2016 and earlier left as it is
[ ] Abstain

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 14 Mar 2014, 12:13

F1RTA MEMBER: Wizzie
F1RWRS TEAM: Melrose Racing Team

Do you wish to see the Formula 1 Rejects World Race Series renamed?
[X] Yes, change to Reject World Series (X) [RWSx]
[ ] Yes, change to a name to be defined later (not RWSx)
[ ] No, leave it as it is
[ ] Abstain

If a name change goes ahead, should the series' history be retconned (rewritten) to reflect the new name?
[ ] Yes, retcon every season from 2010 onwards with the new name
[x] No, any name change shoud commence from 2017, and everything 2016 and earlier left as it is
[ ] Abstain

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 14 Mar 2014, 17:44

PHOENIX
AERORACING ENGINEERING
Do you wish to see the Formula 1 Rejects World Race Series renamed?
[ ] Yes, change to Reject World Series (X) [RWSx]
[ ] Yes, change to a name to be defined later (not RWSx)
[X] No, leave it as it is
[ ] Abstain

If a name change goes ahead, should the series' history be retconned (rewritten) to reflect the new name?
[ ] Yes, retcon every season from 2010 onwards with the new name
[X] No, any name change shoud commence from 2017, and everything 2016 and earlier left as it is
[ ] Abstain
*Note: that answer applies if the decision to change the series' name goes ahead.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 14 Mar 2014, 17:58

After Phoenix corrected his noobness (overwriting my post with vote count with his vote only), I'm calling this one. Only one of the sixteen confirmed F1RTA members has yet to vote, and said member's vote isn't enough to constitute a majority for the yes camp.

Therefore, F1RWRS will remain named as such for the forseeable future. I mandate this issue isn't brought up again until the start of the 2019 season at the earliest.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 22 Mar 2014, 05:12

OK, so there was a lot of discussion (and some arguing, mostly caused by me) about Driver Entitlement Contract quotas. After all of it, we eventually came up with a reasonable solution, that allows people to run a reasonable amount of drivers, while still limiting the number of drivers any one person can have.

When the original DEC rule was formulated, we had just come off the back of a season where only four canon series were in existence. The canon has exploded since. Therefore, a new rule is proposed, and this rule will apply to the following series;

F1RWRS, F2RWRS, F3RWRS, AutoReject 3.5, AutoReject 2.0, F1R Indy Championship Series, ACO Le Mans Cup, GT-R World Championship, Porsche Reject Cup, Reject Touring Car Championship, F1R Super Touring Cup, AutoReject GTi, RejecTrucks Super Series, Reject Rallycross Championship, Alternative Formula One (2010+).

The new rule that will be in force across all canon series is being proposed is as follows;
a. A DEC holder may not enter a quantity of thier own drivers to any single series, where that quantity exceeds 10% of said series' number of full-time entries.
b. a "full-time entry" constitutes a vehicle entered into all (or majority) of rounds of the championship.
c. The number of full-time entries under this critera is multiplied by two for GTRWC, and three for ACO LMC, when calculating the total number of entries for said series.
d Standard mathematical rounding will be used to determine the amount of drivers permitted e.g. a championship has 26 entries, therefore 10% is 2.6%, this is rounded to 3 drivers per DEC holder; another championship has 24 entries, therefore 10% is 2.4%, this is rounded down to 2 drivers per DEC holder
e. Test and reserve drivers are not included in the DEC limit, unless they are employed in a race driver position in another canon series

On the other hand, you can also elect to retain the current set of Driver Entitlement Contract rules, which are as follows;

1.2.1 In accordance with the limit imposed on the F2RWRS and F3RWRS for driver limits, the F1RWRS participates in the 5 drivers per member limit. Each member can run a maximum of five (5) drivers total across all three series.
1.2.3 Test and reserve drivers are not included in the limit, unless they have a race drive elsewhere in the RWRS.

The vote will close either when a majority decision has been made, or the bill will automatically lapse on Saturday 12 April at 1200 GMT. Due to the crtitical nature of this possible rule change and its far reaching ramifications, abstention will not be an option for this poll. For this vote, as it impacts not just F1RWRS but other canon series as well, I am opening the voting up to the following non-F1RWRS team owners only;

Aerond (F1RWRS), Ataxia (AR 2.0), Ferrarist (F1RICS), pi3141 (ACO LMC), RealRacingRoots (GTRWC), Rated (AutoReject GTi), Cynon (RTSS), Dark77 (RRC), Klon (Alt F1).

Under normal circumstances, Hound55 would have been eligible, however since his last date of login was 5 weeks ago, he will not be added to the list, to ensure there is a fair chance a majority decision in either direction can be achieved.

__________________________________________________________________
EXAMPLE BALLOT

How do you think Driver Entitlement Contract quotas should be enforced in canon?
[ ] The new 10% rule covering all series should be implemented
[ ] The old 5 DECs rule covering only F1RWRS-F3RWRS should be retained
___________________________________________________________________
Votes required for majority victory: 13

Current votes;
DRIVER ENTITLEMENT CONTRACTS QUOTA
13 for 10% canon rule (Biscione, Klon, SuperAguri, Dark77, tommykl, TMLW, MinardiFan, FMecha, Salamander, Pasta, dr-baker, RealRacingRoots, Shizuka)
0 for 5 DEC RWRS rule

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 22 Mar 2014, 05:18

How do you think Driver Entitlement Contract quotas should be enforced in canon?
[X] The new 10% rule covering all series should be implemented
[ ] The old 5 DECs rule covering only F1RWRS-F3RWRS should be retained

SuperAguri · Post by **SuperAguri** » 22 Mar 2014, 05:27

How do you think Driver Entitlement Contract quotas should be enforced in canon?
[X] The new 10% rule covering all series should be implemented
[ ] The old 5 DECs rule covering only F1RWRS-F3RWRS should be retained

Gerudo Dragon · Post by **Gerudo Dragon** » 22 Mar 2014, 05:28

[X] The new 10% rule covering all series should be implemented
[ ] The old 5 DECs rule covering only F1RWRS-F3RWRS should be retained

Post by **tommykl** » 22 Mar 2014, 05:39

[X] The new 10% rule covering all series should be implemented
[ ] The old 5 DECs rule covering only F1RWRS-F3RWRS should be retained

However, regarding the way that the 10% is determined, shouldn't it be that, for example, with 26 entries, a maximum of two entries from the same user, as 3 entries would be over the 10% limit?

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 22 Mar 2014, 06:42

How do you think Driver Entitlement Contract quotas should be enforced in canon?
[x] The new 10% rule covering all series should be implemented
[ ] The old 5 DECs rule covering only F1RWRS-F3RWRS should be retained

MinardiFan95 · Post by **MinardiFan95** » 22 Mar 2014, 07:16

How do you think Driver Entitlement Contract quotas should be enforced in canon?
[X] The new 10% rule covering all series should be implemented
[ ] The old 5 DECs rule covering only F1RWRS-F3RWRS should be retained

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 22 Mar 2014, 08:18

I have a major issue with this vote. Many people who are affected by its result don't have the option to vote. For example, V8Fan12, FantometteBR, kevinbotz, HawkAussie, This, takagi_for_the_win, go_Rubens, AxelP800, SeedStriker, AustralianStig, onxy_wrecked, peteroli34 and Hermann95 all can't vote on this. That's the majority of the users involved in ACO Le Mans Cup. As the manager of LMC, I won't implement a rule change based on a vote which excludes more than half of the involved users.

pasta_maldonado · Post by **pasta_maldonado** » 22 Mar 2014, 09:29

I appeal for the Le Mans Cup to be exampt from the 10% rule, at least for the first couple of seasons. The amount of dricers has not yet increased to match the seat demands of LMC.

FMecha · Post by **FMecha** » 22 Mar 2014, 10:14

How do you think Driver Entitlement Contract quotas should be enforced in canon?
[X] The new 10% rule covering all series should be implemented
[ ] The old 5 DECs rule covering only F1RWRS-F3RWRS should be retained

However, we do view that pi314159 and pasta_maldonado have valid points.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 22 Mar 2014, 11:59

How do you think Driver Entitlement Contract quotas should be enforced in canon?
[X] The new 10% rule covering all series should be implemented
[ ] The old 5 DECs rule covering only F1RWRS-F3RWRS should be retained

I would request that the wording of clause b be rewritten slightly - seeing as LMC and GTRWC has multiple drivers to a single vehicle, it would be much less restrictive on those series to simply to say that a full-time entry constitutes a driver being entered into all (or majority) rounds of the championship.

pasta_maldonado · Post by **pasta_maldonado** » 22 Mar 2014, 12:01

How do you think Driver Entitlement Contract quotas should be enforced in canon?
[X] The new 10% rule covering all series should be implemented
[ ] The old 5 DECs rule covering only F1RWRS-F3RWRS should be retained

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 22 Mar 2014, 14:54

c. The number of full-time entries under this critera is multiplied by two for GTRWC, and three for ACO LMC, when calculating the total number of entries for said series.

There we go. Clause inserted. Problem solved. I don't believe there are any other series which have full-season shared cockpits. Any series that usually has a sprint format but decides to have a seat-sharing enduro race won't be affected anyway, as it's a part-time thing.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 22 Mar 2014, 16:43

How do you think Driver Entitlement Contract quotas should be enforced in canon?
[X] The new 10% rule covering all series should be implemented
[ ] The old 5 DECs rule covering only F1RWRS-F3RWRS should be retained

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 22 Mar 2014, 23:34

I'm not satisfied with the new rule which is almost certainly going to be passed. The primary reason for this has been pointed out by Pi, many of the members he has listed have a high volume of drivers in series that aren't currently affected by the five driver limit. These members have no say at all in these new rules and that is grossly unfair, particularly if their plans for 2017 are impacted by the new rule.

But entirely aside from that, we're trying to enforce a 10% limit on championships that have yet to get close to filling their entry lists and we have all agreed that even with the increase in member participation in recent months there remains a shortage of available drivers.

I don't think its the right solution, its too much, too extreme

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 23 Mar 2014, 02:29

AndreaModa wrote:I'm not satisfied with the new rule which is almost certainly going to be passed. The primary reason for this has been pointed out by Pi, many of the members he has listed have a high volume of drivers in series that aren't currently affected by the five driver limit. These members have no say at all in these new rules and that is grossly unfair, particularly if their plans for 2017 are impacted by the new rule.

But entirely aside from that, we're trying to enforce a 10% limit on championships that have yet to get close to filling their entry lists and we have all agreed that even with the increase in member participation in recent months there remains a shortage of available drivers.

If you do the maths, 10% is actually extremely generous for the example you used.

There are 42 full-time entries (i.e. cars registered to do 7 or more rounds) in ACO LMC 2017. This gives us a value of 12.6, rounded up to 13. A full-time two car team only needs six drivers to fill its seats entirely - they have enough to fill all their own seats and all the seats of another two-car full-time entry, and have another driver somewhere else too! That's plenty.

Anyone whose plans are affected by this change were massively flooding a series with drivers anyway. I was riding along the edge of/breaking the DEC limit the entire time it existed, and now with this alteration of the rules, I'm not even hitting the limit in a single series. You have to be really doing something wrong to come a cropper without warning with this set of rules.

RealRacingRoots · Post by **RealRacingRoots** » 23 Mar 2014, 02:42

How do you think Driver Entitlement Contract quotas should be enforced in canon?
[X] The new 10% rule covering all series should be implemented
[ ] The old 5 DECs rule covering only F1RWRS-F3RWRS should be retained

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 23 Mar 2014, 07:40

How do you think Driver Entitlement Contract quotas should be enforced in canon?
[X] The new 10% rule covering all series should be implemented
[ ] The old 5 DECs rule covering only F1RWRS-F3RWRS should be retained

This is one vote with no opposition whatsoever.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 23 Mar 2014, 10:23

[

AndreaModa wrote:I'm not satisfied with the new rule which is almost certainly going to be passed. The primary reason for this has been pointed out by Pi, many of the members he has listed have a high volume of drivers in series that aren't currently affected by the five driver limit. These members have no say at all in these new rules and that is grossly unfair, particularly if their plans for 2017 are impacted by the new rule.

But entirely aside from that, we're trying to enforce a 10% limit on championships that have yet to get close to filling their entry lists and we have all agreed that even with the increase in member participation in recent months there remains a shortage of available drivers.

In addition to what Biscione has already said, one thing you also weren't taking into account about LMC is real-life drivers - since obviously nobody owns them, they don't count towards the DEC limit.

FMecha · Post by **FMecha** » 23 Mar 2014, 15:48

Salamander wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:I'm not satisfied with the new rule which is almost certainly going to be passed. The primary reason for this has been pointed out by Pi, many of the members he has listed have a high volume of drivers in series that aren't currently affected by the five driver limit. These members have no say at all in these new rules and that is grossly unfair, particularly if their plans for 2017 are impacted by the new rule.

But entirely aside from that, we're trying to enforce a 10% limit on championships that have yet to get close to filling their entry lists and we have all agreed that even with the increase in member participation in recent months there remains a shortage of available drivers.

In addition to what Biscione has already said, one thing you also weren't taking into account about LMC is real-life drivers - since obviously nobody owns them, they don't count towards the DEC limit.

You also have to add F1RICS and AltF1 2010+ to the consideration, since these two series also allow real-life drivers. :ugeek:

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 23 Mar 2014, 16:43

FMecha wrote:You also have to add F1RICS and AltF1 2010+ to the consideration, since these two series also allow real-life drivers.

Well, Alt-F1 takes at most 26 real-life drivers - odds are, the further we go down the road, the less the number of actual RL drivers in Alt-F1 will become. F1RICS does allow RL drivers but they are hardly being used (I only know of Ralf Schumacher and Sage Karam who will be around for sure next season). In the end, there are a lot more RL drivers than my and Ferrarist's series use.

Although to be honest, I see pi's and AndreaModa's point, so I wouldn't complain if the vote is opened to every user owning drivers in the ASMF.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 23 Mar 2014, 19:19

Fair enough, I'm happy with the maths, so I concede that.

I still however believe this should be opened up to the other members. They need to be included in this.

Post by **Nuppiz** » 23 Mar 2014, 20:07

How do you think Driver Entitlement Contract quotas should be enforced in canon?
[X] The new 10% rule covering all series should be implemented
[ ] The old 5 DECs rule covering only F1RWRS-F3RWRS should be retained

As for users possibly having their plans screwed by this rule change, well... it's not like the 2017 season is starting tomorrow. There's weeks, maybe even months for everyone to still change plans should this rule change somehow affect them. And as the maths above show the limits aren't all that easy to reach anyway.

Also, since I can finally propose stuff officially, I'd also like to start a discussion (no vote needed yet) on another matter that also brushes with the ongoing debate. Namely, people running their own drivers and teams in their own series. As you may know I've been a rather vocal opponent of this practice for quite some time now. While I don't believe anyone's using it to cheat (and it would be impossible to prove it anyway), there's no arguing against that it's still taking away team and driver slots from other users.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 23 Mar 2014, 20:26

It's not about having plans ruined for 2017, it's about not being able to vote on matters that clearly impact them. It's a no-brainer, this isn't an issue for just F1RWRS team owners it's an issue for everyone who participates in any of the canon series.

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 23 Mar 2014, 20:32

AndreaModa wrote:It's not about having plans ruined for 2017, it's about not being able to vote on matters that clearly impact them. It's a no-brainer, this isn't an issue for just F1RWRS team owners it's an issue for everyone who participates in any of the canon series.

I completely agree with that. Formula 1's strategy group doesn't make the Formula E or WEC rules either. This rule change affects all series, so there's no reason why the decision should be up to only F1RTA members and series owners.

Also, I agree with Nuppiz that series owners shouldn't enter their own drivers or teams (unless they are rejectful on purpose, like Steve Smith in Pasta's alternate F1). But again, that is concerning all series, and not just F1RWRS. This is why I would propose a general PMMF canon series rules discussion thread.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 23 Mar 2014, 21:21

AndreaModa wrote:It's not about having plans ruined for 2017, it's about not being able to vote on matters that clearly impact them. It's a no-brainer, this isn't an issue for just F1RWRS team owners it's an issue for everyone who participates in any of the canon series.

I would consider this an issue, if anyone that wasn't currently an eligible voter came along and voiced concerns. But they haven't. There's nobody on the outside crying out for their say. Nothing is stopping them from doing so. If they wish to make a stand against the new rule, so be it. But nobody is. I can't help those who choose to be silent. So I'm not changing my stance on who can and cannot vote, unless suddenly there is a surge of non-eligible voters coming along protesting against the change.

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 23 Mar 2014, 21:39

Biscione wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:It's not about having plans ruined for 2017, it's about not being able to vote on matters that clearly impact them. It's a no-brainer, this isn't an issue for just F1RWRS team owners it's an issue for everyone who participates in any of the canon series.

I would consider this an issue, if anyone that wasn't currently an eligible voter came along and voiced concerns. But they haven't. There's nobody on the outside crying out for their say. Nothing is stopping them from doing so. If they wish to make a stand against the new rule, so be it. But nobody is. I can't help those who choose to be silent. So I'm not changing my stance on who can and cannot vote, unless suddenly there is a surge of non-eligible voters coming along protesting against the change.

Admittedly though there is a slight problem with this. I mean, guys who don't have stocks in any of the series covered by F1RTA won't check this thread because it simply does not concern them in most cases. Maybe we should have a stickied post when we have topics on the table that affect the entire ASMF.

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 23 Mar 2014, 21:48

Biscione wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:It's not about having plans ruined for 2017, it's about not being able to vote on matters that clearly impact them. It's a no-brainer, this isn't an issue for just F1RWRS team owners it's an issue for everyone who participates in any of the canon series.

I would consider this an issue, if anyone that wasn't currently an eligible voter came along and voiced concerns. But they haven't. There's nobody on the outside crying out for their say. Nothing is stopping them from doing so. If they wish to make a stand against the new rule, so be it. But nobody is. I can't help those who choose to be silent. So I'm not changing my stance on who can and cannot vote, unless suddenly there is a surge of non-eligible voters coming along protesting against the change.

Rob Lomas Racing participate in a number of ASMF Series and I am against the change

Hermann95 · Post by **Hermann95** » 23 Mar 2014, 22:17

I just searched through this post because i was bored and i have to say that i'm not against this new rule but i'm against the way it is(will be) decided. Why are only F1RWRS team owners and a few series owners allowed to vote? In my opinion there should be a own thread in which votes like this take place and everyone who is involved in the ASMF should be able to vote.

go_Rubens · Post by **go_Rubens** » 23 Mar 2014, 22:24

This is the F1RTA. This is for F1RWRS team owners. Why not a seperate thread for everyone involved to vote? Because I'm not against the new rule, I'm against how the vote is being decided. pi314159 said everything I would have said and then some. Please, start a new thread for every series and then restart the vote. Because this is not the place to vote upon a rule across all series in the ASMF, nor the way to vote upon it.