2011 Korean Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Post by **mario** » 12 Oct 2011, 17:37

Well, it's been a while since I started a thread like this, so perhaps this is as good a time as any to start a new topic, and first off is the question of Pirelli's tyre choices for Korea.

Now, given that the fight for the WDC is formally over, and the WCC is almost over, it seems that quite a few participants, especially Pirelli, are concerned that the viewing figures will drop sharply in the final races (Joe Saward is reporting that the number of journalists who will now be deployed to the Indian GP has dropped sharply as the mainstream media switch to covering other sporting competitions, such as the Rugby World Cup, where there is still competition for the title).
To counter this, Pirelli has announced that it is now going for the most aggressive combination of tyres possible - soft and super soft - it can bring for Korea in an attempt to inject more variability and excitement into the race, with Pirelli expecting that some teams might have to go for four stop strategies. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95287

Looking at it, though, does anybody get the feeling that more and more drivers are simply going to not set a time in Q3? If Pirelli continues to be so aggressive with their tyre strategies, and bring tyres that fall apart extremely quickly, then the teams and drivers are going to be desperate to save sets of tyres. Besides, unless you are driving for Red Bull, McLaren or Ferrari, the midfield is so far behind that they are unrealistically going to beat them anyway.

Sorry for the rant - the other news is that the drivers representative on the stewarding panel will be Martin Donnelly, which will mark his first appearance on the stewarding panel. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95277

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 12 Oct 2011, 17:48

mario wrote:Looking at it, though, does anybody get the feeling that more and more drivers are simply going to not set a time in Q3? If Pirelli continues to be so aggressive with their tyre strategies, and bring tyres that fall apart extremely quickly, then the teams and drivers are going to be desperate to save sets of tyres. Besides, unless you are driving for Red Bull, McLaren or Ferrari, the midfield is so far behind that they are unrealistically going to beat them anyway.

Sorry for the rant

Its ok, dont be. I think most of us agree with you for exactly that reason (Its why I nominated it for ROTR for the last 2 races) and if they dont sort it for next year then its only going to get worse... (deliberately slowing on Q2? 11th the new pole position?)

As for the tyres, I wonder if the teams will prey for rain? Would be better than 4 stops! Though wouldnt surprise me if Sauber gain, seeing as (at least, before) they were very easy on the tyres...

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 12 Oct 2011, 22:31

Any news on the DRS zone(s)?

This is a favourite track of mine, so really looking forward to it again. Hopefully a bit of rain again too.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 12 Oct 2011, 23:05

Collieafc wrote:Its ok, dont be. I think most of us agree with you for exactly that reason (Its why I nominated it for ROTR for the last 2 races) and if they dont sort it for next year then its only going to get worse... (deliberately slowing on Q2? 11th the new pole position?)

I still don't see how seeing the Merecedes' and Renault's/Force India's/Sauber's/maybe Toro Rosso or Williams if they get lucky would spice up qualifying. As I've said previously, I would much rather have a lacklustre qualifying session than a lacklustre race. Yes, it would be nice to see all the cars on track, but this way we have a few cars perhaps starting outside their comfort zone and seeing a few more overtakes in the race. Plus, deliberately slowing in Q2 would never happen - at worst, nobody would go out in Q3. The best solution would simply be to scrap the 'Q3 starts on their qualifying tyres' rule, which is obsolete now anyway. I'm surprised nobody in F1 has seen that this might be the problem.

Post by **mario** » 13 Oct 2011, 12:29

Collieafc wrote:
mario wrote:Looking at it, though, does anybody get the feeling that more and more drivers are simply going to not set a time in Q3? If Pirelli continues to be so aggressive with their tyre strategies, and bring tyres that fall apart extremely quickly, then the teams and drivers are going to be desperate to save sets of tyres. Besides, unless you are driving for Red Bull, McLaren or Ferrari, the midfield is so far behind that they are unrealistically going to beat them anyway.

Sorry for the rant

Its ok, dont be. I think most of us agree with you for exactly that reason (Its why I nominated it for ROTR for the last 2 races) and if they dont sort it for next year then its only going to get worse... (deliberately slowing on Q2? 11th the new pole position?)

As for the tyres, I wonder if the teams will prey for rain? Would be better than 4 stops! Though wouldnt surprise me if Sauber gain, seeing as (at least, before) they were very easy on the tyres...

The indication so far is that there will be rain on Friday but the remainder of the event should be dry (at least in theory). And yes, I expect that Sauber might well be in a position to gain from Pirelli bringing the softer tyres, though another outfit that is likely to gain will be Ferrari (Alonso was quite competitive in race trim at Suzuka), whilst Red Bull might be pegged back a little given that they have started to suffer a little with tyre wear and overheating in recent races. However, I suspect that Sauber might not be quite so happy if rain was in the offing, given that their performance in wet conditions has been a bit more variable.

On another note, it looks like Toro Rosso are trying to bridge the gap to Sauber with a revised exhaust design - they tried it out in Suzuka during the first practise sessions, but the exhausts were overheating and cracking, forcing the team to revert to an older specification. However, given that the races are so close together, it looks like the team are still uncertain whether or not they can solve the problems they had in Japan. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95312

I've also seen a few indications of small changes to the circuit around around the final turn following Petrov's heavy accident there last year. The organisers have moved the walls back a few metres to try to give the drivers a little more run off space, and it looks like the organisers might have also resurfaced the track to remove a large bump in the track that a number of drivers were complaining about last year (and partially behind Petrov's crash).

IdeFan · Post by **IdeFan** » 13 Oct 2011, 17:37

I never quite saw the point of the racing on qualifying tyres rule, it seemed to be some way of retaining the race on qualifying fuel rule, which also didn't have much of a point.

This year, Pirelli have said that:

a) They would like to bring back qualifying tyres in some form.

b) Waste fewer tyres (teams usually waste at least one set of hard tyres every weekend).

This is an opportunity to accomplish both (and fix the Q3 issue): Qualifying tyres for Q3. Teams get one less set of dry tyres per weekend (96 tyres saved) leaving them 3 soft and 3 hard tyres on which to do Q1, Q2 and the race.

Cars which reach Q3 are giving two sets of qualifying tyres (80 tyres total), of the old school good for only one lap variety, which must be returned after Q3, they are then free to start the race on whichever one of their 6 sets they wish.

So we have Qualifying tyres back, Pirelli need to make 16 fewer tyres per race, and less of them go to waste (since there's no reason not to do two runs in Q3), we get rid of cars not running in Q3 plus get to seem some low fuel-sticky tyres-balls out qualifying runs (with the new turbo engines that will be low fuel-sticky tyres-maximum boost-balls out!).

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 13 Oct 2011, 19:58

I don't get why so many people seem to hate the Singapore circuit. And I don't get why so many people seem to love the Korea circuit. When I looked at it last year I thought "this one is going to be boring". There are two long straights, yes, but neither of the two lead to the classical hairpins where overtaking is usually done these days. And the rest of the track is just a long succesion of corners that may be fun to drive, but won't lead to any overtaking (it wouldn't last year, for sure). Of course, there was rain last year and that probably saved the day, and this year with these tyres we will have action anyway.

Now I'm looking at it and I actually see three straights, only one of them long enough. I still think the first and the third one wouldn't bring too much overtaking under the old regime (the first corner is not too slow, and the fourth corner follows a potentially too short straight).

About the tyres, I think Pirelli are really overdoing it right now. It's fun to have short-lasting tyres, but I don't want to see cars crawling around the track to save tyres all the time. It's okay if one day the tyres last long enough so that only a few teams risk pitting twice and most people do a Pérez -it's actually better, because it adds variety between races and rewards different kind of driving styles, and it makes it more unpredictable. I'd rather have them pitting four times a race than one (and only because the rules force them to pit), but I prefer not to know beforehand that they will have to pit a lot because the tyres don't last.

You know, if I was a certain Felipe Massa I would wait until everyone had gone out on Q3 and then I'd go out on the "hard" compound for a single attempt. If he does that he will more than likely qualify 6th anyway. Then I would plan my race to pit one time less than everyone else in front -if they are looking to four pitstops, I would try to pit only three times for two stints on the softer tyres. It might backfire, but even if he does he will finish 6th anyway so I think it's worth a try.

johnston21 · Post by **johnston21** » 13 Oct 2011, 19:59

IdeFan wrote:So we have Qualifying tyres back, Pirelli need to make 16 fewer tyres per race, and less of them go to waste (since there's no reason not to do two runs in Q3), we get rid of cars not running in Q3 plus get to seem some low fuel-sticky tyres-balls out qualifying runs (with the new turbo engines that will be low fuel-sticky tyres-maximum boost-balls out!).

I'm sold, now only if I had Jean's job...

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 14 Oct 2011, 00:56

Under 5 minutes to FP1 and the track is absolutely soaked. I'm not expecting too much from it.

Dj_bereta · Post by **Dj_bereta** » 14 Oct 2011, 04:15

Chandhok

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 14 Oct 2011, 05:46

Wizzie wrote:Under 5 minutes to FP1 and the track is absolutely soaked. I'm not expecting too much from it.

And I predicted rain during one FP...

Too bad it won't rain during Saturday and Sunday...

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 14 Oct 2011, 11:16

What did everyone think of Robert "y'know" Wickens on the red button? personally he was the catalyst for sending me back to bed :lol:

tristan1117 · Post by **tristan1117** » 15 Oct 2011, 02:17

Well, after a quick glance at the live timing screens, it looks like FP3 is on. And Bruno Senna has already spun and broken his front wing.

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 15 Oct 2011, 04:28

Thought it was a bit harsh for Vettel to shake his fists at Alguersuari near the end. Does he expect the slower cars to just jump out the way because he's on a fast lap? The midfield have their own race to do aswell. World Championship going to his head?

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 15 Oct 2011, 04:45

well up early for the race, interesting to hear the one move rule is going to be codified formally, I am guessing that Schumacher's aggressive defense in Monza has triggered a proper review

Oddly only Bruno Senna out so far, are teams that concerned about tyres?

Also massive respect to five live, their main sound cut out, so they have gone retro and brought back a 1980's style commentary radio feed! :lol:

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 15 Oct 2011, 05:07

Both Red Bulls out there on Supersofts :shock:

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 15 Oct 2011, 05:08

And lapping very very slowly! awesome stuff!

Due to the lack of Free practice Crofty has interestingly just added "we don't know what fuel teams are running' could Red Bull be running a very high fuel load to qualify and get final data?

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 15 Oct 2011, 05:11

This is depressing. If this was on One, I wouldn't be watching ads right now.

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 15 Oct 2011, 05:13

Anthony Davidson on five live stating he doesn't understand why Williams are not out there at the moment, he says that as a driver he would want to be running around and getting familiar with the track due to it being so green

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 15 Oct 2011, 05:14

Ah crap. Was HRT trying to fix something on Ricciardo's car?

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 15 Oct 2011, 05:16

Wow, Petrov goes 1:38 on super softs, that Mclaren looks absolutely on it here in Korea, as they haven't gone to super softs yet

Mclaren radio message states that they think Red Bull believe the harder compound is quicker than the option! That'd be interesting, but the fact Petrov gained a second suggests otherwise

Ricciardo no time set, possible no race but I reckon the stewards will allow it due to Free practice disruption

Intriguingly Webber is replacing his front wing now., have Red Bull pushed the panic button I wonder?

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 15 Oct 2011, 05:39

Rubens, Pastor is faster than you. Go home! :lol:

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 15 Oct 2011, 05:42

Michael Schumacher goes outta!"

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 15 Oct 2011, 05:44

the Masked Lapwing wrote:Rubens, Pastor is faster than you. Go home!

For about the millionth time this year too :lol:

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 15 Oct 2011, 05:50

Alot of leaves offline, could be fun in the race

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 15 Oct 2011, 05:53

$20 says Petrov & the Force Indias don't set a time.

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 15 Oct 2011, 05:55

You owe us all $20, petrov 8th

Tight at the front, surprised Button is 4/10ths off Hamilton though

Mclaren 1st and 3rd, that could have a big bearing on the race tomorrow

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 15 Oct 2011, 06:04

2/3 ain't bad :lol:

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 15 Oct 2011, 06:05

I was surprised Petrov bothered to set a lap actually, to be honest I was expecting Rosberg not to either, still 8 out of 10 set a time, better than Japan

Post by **mario** » 15 Oct 2011, 09:48

sswishbone wrote:I was surprised Petrov bothered to set a lap actually, to be honest I was expecting Rosberg not to either, still 8 out of 10 set a time, better than Japan

I think that part of the reason why he set a time is because most of the midfield teams have been trying to save sets of the harder tyre, not the softer tyre, since there is a smaller difference in time between the super soft and soft tyre and the soft tyre is much more durable (it's why Red Bull were happy to use their super soft tyres up - it might be that their plan is to drive most of the race on the soft tyre instead of the super soft).

If it is the case that most of the teams are planning to spend more time on the soft rather than the super soft, it doesn't matter so much if you're using the super soft tyres up in qualifying - you might as well go for it and have a go at improving your grid slot, and thereby possibly increase your chances of points tomorrow, or at least reduce your chances of getting caught up in a first corner midfield pile up.

Incidentally, it looks like Alonso has been given a new front wing - which some think might be a hint of what the 2012 front wing might look like - for this race whilst Massa is having to make do with a slightly more conventional design.

This is the front wing that Alonso has been using (which seems to be blending design elements from Red Bull in the cascade elements with the endplate design from Williams (the Williams endplates are integrated into the front wing elements instead of being free standing structures).

and this is the front wing that Massa appears to be using

Also, over at Red Bull Webber was slightly lucky during qualifying as he was caught speeding in the pit lane (he was clocked at 106.9kph) - however, the stewards have decided to only impose a fine of €1,400, which is a relatively lenient penalty.

In addition, Autosport are reporting that Vettel is being formally investigated for cutting the track at Turn 5 when returning to the pits instead of sticking to the race track (which is technically a breach of the regulations since the drivers are not supposed to intentionally cross the white lines that mark the edges of the track) - though to be honest I'd be surprised if anything more than a token fine is levied. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95405

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 15 Oct 2011, 10:20

Having watched a full session under dry conditions I must say that the track looks very nice to drive. There is a good flow in the second half of the track, where there are no really slow corners, and I enjoyed watching the onboards.

I'm also happy that Lewis Carl Hamilton is back. He's always had the upper hand on Button, some days by a tenth, other days by three... but recently he's been completely out of his depth. And there's still the race; I wouldn't be surprised if Jenson outsmarted him again, so it will be interesting to watch.

Post by **mario** » 15 Oct 2011, 11:04

Ferrim wrote:Having watched a full session under dry conditions I must say that the track looks very nice to drive. There is a good flow in the second half of the track, where there are no really slow corners, and I enjoyed watching the onboards.

I'm also happy that Lewis Carl Hamilton is back. He's always had the upper hand on Button, some days by a tenth, other days by three... but recently he's been completely out of his depth. And there's still the race; I wouldn't be surprised if Jenson outsmarted him again, so it will be interesting to watch.

He did look much more revitalised compared to his recent lacklustre form, and surprisingly calm after qualifying (perhaps he is finally beginning to relax and enjoy the races in the final part of the season now that the media are taking a slightly less harsh line with him).

Also, as a further update the stewards have decided to take no further action on Vettel cutting the track on his in lap during Q3 after judging that Vettel did not gain any advantage in doing so (i.e. that Vettel could have started his final flying lap anyway if he had stuck to the normal racing line). However, it looks like the stewards are going to remind all of the drivers that they should not be using that link road during the race, presumably on the grounds that they do not want drivers potentially returning to the track at Turn 6 at high speed and an oblique angle to the normal racing line through that corner (perhaps mindful of Rosberg's free practise accident). http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95410

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 15 Oct 2011, 11:41

I am quite disappointed with Hamilton's pole. Not because I dislike him or anything, it's just ... a Red Bull pole sweep would have been something historic and this pole by Hamilton is nothing and will join the endless list of forgotten pole positions. A tragedy, really.

Pedestrian · Post by **Pedestrian** » 15 Oct 2011, 12:05

What do you people think about the fact that Red Bull expect to run out of tires throughout the race and finish it on intermediates? They even did a run on those tires in Q3. How do you think the final laps will look like?

Post by **mario** » 15 Oct 2011, 13:15

Klon wrote:I am quite disappointed with Hamilton's pole. Not because I dislike him or anything, it's just ... a Red Bull pole sweep would have been something historic and this pole by Hamilton is nothing and will join the endless list of forgotten pole positions. A tragedy, really.

Yes and no - in 1952 Ferrari took every pole position in the championship races that ran to Formula 1 rules (i.e. for every event save the Indy 500 - though, given that Ferrari did enter the event, albeit retiring with a collapsed wheel, it wasn't for a lack of effort), and as such are the only team to have taken every pole position in a season (and to win every race that season to boot).

As it so happens, Red Bull would only require one more pole position this season to take the record for the most pole positions in a season, though you'd have to say that would also be in part because the season has simply kept growing to the point where records like that are almost inevitable. After all, last year they took 15 poles in 19 races, which, although impressive, percentage wise it is a long way behind what Williams managed in the 1990's (15 out of 16 in 1992 and 1993) or McLaren in 1989 and 1990 (also 15 out of 16). By the same token, Ferrari utterly dominated the races in the 2004 season, and yet by comparison the number of poles they took - 12 in 18 races - is perhaps surprisingly low.

Pedestrian wrote:What do you people think about the fact that Red Bull expect to run out of tires throughout the race and finish it on intermediates? They even did a run on those tires in Q3. How do you think the final laps will look like?

I would be surprised if that was the case - whilst some teams were talking of four or five stops before this race began, that now seems to have dropped as the track has evolved and now the consensus seems to be that a three stop race is much more likely, even for those teams with high tyre wear like Mercedes. And I'm pretty sure that they didn't do a run on those tyres in Q3 - what you might have seen is the team wheeling the car back into the garage on a set of set up tyres, which do look like a set of intermediates but are only used in the pit lane.
[The idea being that the team can wheel the car around - say, to the weigh bridge - if needed, which means that the teams do not have to risk damaging a pair of slick tyres that might be needed in the race.]

Pedestrian · Post by **Pedestrian** » 15 Oct 2011, 14:07

mario wrote:And I'm pretty sure that they didn't do a run on those tyres in Q3 - what you might have seen is the team wheeling the car back into the garage on a set of set up tyres, which do look like a set of intermediates but are only used in the pit lane.

Sorry, I meant Q1. And I did not actually notice them doing running on intermediates, but the commentary claimed that both Red Bull cars had done a timed lap on intermediates in Q1 and that Vettel has declared that he expects to finish the race on these tires.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 15 Oct 2011, 14:21

Pedestrian wrote:
mario wrote:And I'm pretty sure that they didn't do a run on those tyres in Q3 - what you might have seen is the team wheeling the car back into the garage on a set of set up tyres, which do look like a set of intermediates but are only used in the pit lane.

Sorry, I meant Q1. And I did not actually notice them doing running on intermediates, but the commentary claimed that both Red Bull cars had done a timed lap on intermediates in Q1 and that Vettel has declared that he expects to finish the race on these tires.

With "intermediates", I'm taking you mean soft tyres, right?

Pedestrian · Post by **Pedestrian** » 15 Oct 2011, 14:30

No I mean intermediates as in "not quite wet" tyres. Apparently, Vettel fully expects to run out of dry weather tires!
Or he just expects to run out of soft tyres and planned to do a final run on intermediates instead of bothering with multiple short runs with the super softs.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 15 Oct 2011, 14:52

Pedestrian wrote:No I mean intermediates as in "not quite wet" tyres. Apparently, Vettel fully expects to run out of dry weather tires!
Or he just expects to run out of soft tyres and planned to do a final run on intermediates instead of bothering with multiple short runs with the super softs.

But how will he run on intermediates if the track is dry, I wonder?

Pedestrian · Post by **Pedestrian** » 15 Oct 2011, 15:10

Phoenix wrote:
Pedestrian wrote:No I mean intermediates as in "not quite wet" tyres. Apparently, Vettel fully expects to run out of dry weather tires!
Or he just expects to run out of soft tyres and planned to do a final run on intermediates instead of bothering with multiple short runs with the super softs.

But how will he run on intermediates if the track is dry, I wonder?

Solwer?...