2011 German Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Post by **Londoner** » 21 Jul 2011, 22:21

Think it's time to open this thread. From what I've read from several sources, there's a chance of rain on all three days. Rerun of 2007 anyone, with Chandhok leading the race!

As with Silverstone, there's only one DRS zone, placed on the run-up to the Veedol chicane. As far as I'm concerned, this looks like a good place for it to work.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 21 Jul 2011, 22:25

I honestly thought that the better place for the DRS would have been the start/finish straight.

I also heard that all teams but HRT, Lotus and Virgin are illegal this weekend. Why?

Driver overalls.

Post by **Londoner** » 21 Jul 2011, 22:35

Peter wrote:I honestly thought that the better place for the DRS would have been the start/finish straight.

I also heard that all teams but HRT, Lotus and Virgin are illegal this weekend. Why?

Driver overalls.

Oh dear, here we go again. Bathplug the FIA! But also praise them, for a chance of unrejectification for the new teams. But then we lose a potential profile on this site for HRT!

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 21 Jul 2011, 22:45

East Londoner wrote:
Peter wrote:I honestly thought that the better place for the DRS would have been the start/finish straight.

I also heard that all teams but HRT, Lotus and Virgin are illegal this weekend. Why?

Driver overalls.

Oh dear, here we go again. Bathplug the FIA! But also praise them, for a chance of unrejectification for the new teams. But then we lose a potential profile on this site for HRT!

But that's a good thing!

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 21 Jul 2011, 23:22

Peter wrote:I honestly thought that the better place for the DRS would have been the start/finish straight.

I also heard that all teams but HRT, Lotus and Virgin are illegal this weekend. Why?

Driver overalls.

Please explain :lol:

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 22 Jul 2011, 00:34

Apparently the driver overalls are incorrect. I've heard they need to have an FIA logo embroidered on them, but only Virgin, Hispania and Fernandes have it in the right place/at all.

But the FIA isn't going to go penalising everyone over it ...

GwilymJJames · Post by **GwilymJJames** » 22 Jul 2011, 09:34

Missing the 107% time in FP1: Karthikeyan (guesting for Liuzzi) (+0.08), Chandhok (+0.34), Ricciardo (+0.85), Glock (+1.69) and D'Ambrosio (+2.01)

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 22 Jul 2011, 09:53

GwilymJJames wrote:Missing the 107% time in FP1: Karthikeyan (guesting for Liuzzi) (+0.08), Chandhok (+0.34), Ricciardo (+0.85), Glock (+1.69) and D'Ambrosio (+2.01)

Karthikeyan .77 faster than Ricciardo... Karthikeyan to partner Vettel next year? :lol:

S951 · Post by **S951** » 22 Jul 2011, 10:06

Guys and Gals I got to say that was interesting in the lower half! Kova in 17th ahead of a sauber and williams (unsure if they had problems) plus both the HRTs and Karun ahead of both MVRs but a fair bit to! Kova doesn't seem to far off moving up a good few more to

GwilymJJames · Post by **GwilymJJames** » 22 Jul 2011, 12:11

Ricciardo engine failure in FP2.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 22 Jul 2011, 12:24

Daniels got a failure. According to Steve Matchett on SPEED, it was probably a transmission failure.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 22 Jul 2011, 14:08

It seems Ferrari is on par with Red Bull, based upon the two FP results. McLaren is third, but then it might be a Mercedes-Force India scrap. Although I think Di Resta will have another front wing loss... Renault and STR are not far behind. Is Renault dropping back the field? Is FI finally bringing themselves together?

Post by **mario** » 22 Jul 2011, 18:59

Shizuka wrote:It seems Ferrari is on par with Red Bull, based upon the two FP results. McLaren is third, but then it might be a Mercedes-Force India scrap. Although I think Di Resta will have another front wing loss... Renault and STR are not far behind. Is Renault dropping back the field? Is FI finally bringing themselves together?

Renault are struggling to develop their car by their own admission - they've been working on a potential replacement for their front exiting exhaust, since it seems that the Red Bull style rearward exiting exhaust is much more effective.
However, making such a radical change has had a pretty drastic effect - they've had to produce a new chassis for the new exhaust packaging requirements - on the behaviour of the car, and it seems that it is not without problems (Heidfeld, who tried the new car out in the first session, hit problems when the floor of his car started overheating). Heidfeld seems to think that the new exhausts are an improvement, but are not without problems, so it seems that Renault will wait until tomorrow to make their final decision.

On another note, Pirelli's new soft tyre compound is proving to be surprisingly durable - Pirelli had reckoned that they'd last around 20 laps, but the reports from the teams suggest that they might last as much as 30 laps, due to the much lower than expected ambient temperatures and the non abrasive nature of the track surface. The medium tyres, meanwhile, are though to last significantly longer - tyre wear is so low that Pirelli reckon they could last for as many as 100 laps - but are around 1.5s a lap slower than the soft tyres.
So, Pirelli reckon that, in this case, we will probably see most of the drivers doing two fairly long stints on their tyres, before switching to the harder compound as late as they can to maximise their strategy. Admittedly, they do also reckon that a one stop strategy with a long stint on the medium tyres is possible, but I doubt that many will try it - the time difference is probably too large to make it worthwhile.

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 22 Jul 2011, 21:04

Let's hope for some rain to spice up the show, then. It seems tyres won't do it this time.

Post by **mario** » 23 Jul 2011, 09:13

Confirmation from the 5Live team that Renault have reverted to their forward exiting exhausts for the race - it seems that Renault are waiting until the next race before they try using their new exhaust. Meanwhile, Heikki might not have much track time for this final practise session - it seems that he's got a hydraulics problem, and it might take at least a third of the session to repair.

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 23 Jul 2011, 09:54

mario wrote:Renault are struggling to develop their car by their own admission - they've been working on a potential replacement for their front exiting exhaust, since it seems that the Red Bull style rearward exiting exhaust is much more effective.

Renault is losing people left, right and centre. Two more design engineers and 1 aero guy left and are starting with Williams soon and at least 6 more guys to leave by the end of the month. Rumour has it that more and more people are being poached by Ferrari.

Post by **mario** » 23 Jul 2011, 10:25

Faustus wrote:
mario wrote:Renault are struggling to develop their car by their own admission - they've been working on a potential replacement for their front exiting exhaust, since it seems that the Red Bull style rearward exiting exhaust is much more effective.

Renault is losing people left, right and centre. Two more design engineers and 1 aero guy left and are starting with Williams soon and at least 6 more guys to leave by the end of the month. Rumour has it that more and more people are being poached by Ferrari.

I'd heard about the designers and aero guy leaving, but I didn't know that another half dozen were about to leave too - though, given how Renault have been struggling, I kind of suspected that there would be a steady trickle of designers leaving. I'd not be surprised if Mercedes will be poaching a few of the senior engineers either (after all, Bell, now he is at Mercedes, could probably tempt a few senior Renault engineers across with his personal contacts).

I wonder, is it just the case that Ferrari can out pay the Renault team, and effectively buy out Renault's engineers, or is it the case that there are greater problems within the team? Boullier did admit last year that they'd gone over budget, so I wouldn't be surprised if Renault are paying for it this year with a budgetary cut back - and the legal wrangles with Team Lotus might be an unwelcome distraction too.

Anyway, back to the last practise session - it seems that Alonso is giving the Red Bull team plenty to think about, suggesting that their upturn in pace in Silverstone was not a one off event. Alonso was competitive on both tyre compounds, and probably still has a little in hand (he only went for one timed lap, whereas Massa, Vettel and Webber set their best times on the second timed lap) - Red Bull might still have a slight advantage in qualifying trim, but the gap is probably smaller, and Ferrari might well now have the stronger race package.

Further back down the grid, though, it is not looking good for Chandhok - he is really struggling with the brakes, although to be fair to him it sounded as if he was struggling from a lack of pressure, or possibly air, within the brake system (he reported that he was having to pump the brakes in order to get them to work effectively).

S951 · Post by **S951** » 23 Jul 2011, 10:36

liuzzi not far off glock and kova well ahead of all of them still over a second from the next person

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 23 Jul 2011, 11:57

I can see Liuzzi qualifying in the top 20 today.

S951 · Post by **S951** » 23 Jul 2011, 11:58

shame he has a 5 place pen for box change, so guys as usual do we think we will see some rain?

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 23 Jul 2011, 11:59

S951 wrote:shame he has a 5 place pen for box change, so guys as usual do we think we will see some rain?

Maybe in Q3 or Q2 at a push. It should stay dry for Q1.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 23 Jul 2011, 12:05

Lol, Brundle brought up the Coulthard-Alonso incident... but it WASN'T in 2004.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 23 Jul 2011, 12:20

KOBAYASHI KAMUI GOESA OUTTA!

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 23 Jul 2011, 12:27

redbulljack14 wrote:KOBAYASHI KAMUI GOESA OUTTA!

I think he did that on purpose to do an Alguersuari.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 23 Jul 2011, 12:53

Shizuka wrote:
redbulljack14 wrote:KOBAYASHI KAMUI GOESA OUTTA!

I think he did that on purpose to do an Alguersuari.

Surely Kobayashi's quick enough to make Q2 on hards, he could then settle for about 13th by not using softs, and have them for the race.

pablo_h · Post by **pablo_h** » 23 Jul 2011, 13:02

Hamilton from nowhere in qual.
I really expected webber, alonso, vettel, not webber hamilton, vettel.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 23 Jul 2011, 13:07

I wonder if Vettel has a high downforce setup on his car in case it rains?

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 23 Jul 2011, 14:18

I know the track improves a bit and all that, but the last five drivers on the grid haven't made 107% of Q3 time. This didn't happen a lot last year, when the track usually improved more because of the Bridgestones.

pablo_h · Post by **pablo_h** » 23 Jul 2011, 16:35

Cynon wrote:I wonder if Vettel has a high downforce setup on his car in case it rains?

Nah, there's probably 'cracks' in the chassis and they swap it with webber's next race.
I think webber just took a while to get used to the tyres. They both had to get used to them, and the DRS and KERS, and vettel was the quicker learner. But webber has never been a slack qualifier and struggled more with the new stuff. He got pole last race remember, this is not just Vettel having a higher downforce.

Though webbers starts suck and RBR normally throw his strategy away under the bus to help/protect vettel, so I'm not expecting anything from this. But poles and fastest laps are nice and that's the best a webber fan can expect these days...

Benetton · Post by **Benetton** » 23 Jul 2011, 17:17

Interesting race coming tomorrow if it rains!!

RAK · Post by **RAK** » 23 Jul 2011, 17:34

redbulljack14 wrote:
Shizuka wrote:
redbulljack14 wrote:KOBAYASHI KAMUI GOESA OUTTA!

I think he did that on purpose to do an Alguersuari.

Surely Kobayashi's quick enough to make Q2 on hards, he could then settle for about 13th by not using softs, and have them for the race.

I reckon that the Sauber team have struggled with the blown diffuser rules. They don't have the same sophistication of off-throttle blowing that the Renault runners do, do they?

Rocks with Salt · Post by **Rocks with Salt** » 23 Jul 2011, 17:59

A few things:

1. Did anybody else notice the Star of David on the top of Barrichello's helmet?

2. Regarding Kobayashi's tire strategy: As I discussed in the British GP Discussion Thread, why don't more midfielder teams go out in Q1 to save tires?! The field is much more experienced than years past; there has not been a single turn 1 pileup at all this year, and there have been 8 DNFs due to collisions compared to 13 last year at this point. Besides, if it rains, wouldn't it be more of an advantage for Kobayashi to have those extra tires compared to the rest of the field? As Will Buxton explained when interviewing Kobayashi, Alguersuari has scored in the points every time he has been knocked out in Q1, so you'd think it would be a viable strategy instead of a suicidal one (Though the Flying Scotsman always seems to show his rookie experience whenever someone tries to attempt such a strategy).

3. Who's better off one-stopping, and who's better off two-stopping?

Post by **mario** » 23 Jul 2011, 18:02

pablo_h wrote:
Cynon wrote:I wonder if Vettel has a high downforce setup on his car in case it rains?

Nah, there's probably 'cracks' in the chassis and they swap it with webber's next race.
I think webber just took a while to get used to the tyres. They both had to get used to them, and the DRS and KERS, and vettel was the quicker learner. But webber has never been a slack qualifier and struggled more with the new stuff. He got pole last race remember, this is not just Vettel having a higher downforce.

Though webbers starts suck and RBR normally throw his strategy away under the bus to help/protect vettel, so I'm not expecting anything from this. But poles and fastest laps are nice and that's the best a webber fan can expect these days...

Red Bull are fairly sluggish in a straight line, that is true (it's about the only area where Red Bull really are far behind everybody else), although the Red Bull cars, right from the RB5 onwards, have tended to be sluggish in a straight line. Red Bull do have a healthy downforce advantage, but that does come at a price, and that price is higher drag - so the fact that Red Bull are slow on the main straights is not necessarily an indication they are running with more wing.

As for Webber's upturn in pace, that seems to be down to the changes that Pirelli have been making to the rubber compound that they've used for the tyres. Before this race began, Brundle mentioned to Webber that the tyres seem to be much more durable this weekend, to which Webber replied "They are - and it's playing right into my hands". That said, it'll be another thing entirely if Webber can turn this pole position into a win - the last four times Webber has had pole (last week in Silverstone, the Spanish GP this year, and the 2010 Belgian and Turkish GPs), he has failed to convert them into victories, and he is still to lead even a single lap this season.

And, so far, it does seem to be the case that Webber, along with Alonso and Hamilton, are enjoying the new tyre characteristics, which has nullified some of the advantage that Vettel had in the earlier part of the season. By contrast, it looks like Vettel is a little ill at ease this weekend - possibly in part due to media pressure (it's his home race, and he has been pestered by people asking him about team orders in Silverstone etc.).
It's also highly likely that Vettel might be a little more uncomfortable for the rest of the season - Pirelli have confirmed that the new tyre specification will remain for the rest of the year, as they are now switching development to their 2012 specification tyres.

Back to this race - I have to say that Hamilton really is the big surprise in qualifying, as, to be honest, I thought that he would have been around 5th, maybe 6th, based on the practise times, not 2nd and splitting the Red Bull drivers. Credit where it is due, he was driving the wheels off that thing, and with limited tyre degradation reducing your options on strategy, coupled to a decent straight line advantage for Hamilton (about 6kph), he won't be easy to pass, and we saw in Silverstone that Vettel struggled to pass Hamilton.

RAK wrote:I reckon that the Sauber team have struggled with the blown diffuser rules. They don't have the same sophistication of off-throttle blowing that the Renault runners do, do they?

That is true - Ferrari are probably the least aggressive when it comes to blowing their diffuser, either hot or cold blowing, mainly because Ferrari have been relatively conservative on their engine maps. Still, they've not exactly been uncompetitive elsewhere - perhaps, given that they've generally not worked their tyres very hand, Sauber have been more adversely hit by the unusually low ambient temperatures? It's only been 12ºC today (19ºC track temp) with a pretty stiff breeze, and the tyres have been pretty slow to warm up this weekend.

tc3j3r · Post by **tc3j3r** » 23 Jul 2011, 18:10

Buemi excluded from qualifying due to fuel irregularity http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93301

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 23 Jul 2011, 18:22

Rocks with Salt wrote:1. Did anybody else notice the Star of David on the top of Barrichello's helmet?

That's been there a while, at least this season.

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 23 Jul 2011, 18:28

Barrichello has raced with a Star of David on his helmet for years and years - as far as I know, he's always worn it.

Post by **mario** » 23 Jul 2011, 20:54

Recent development here - Buemi has had his times erased after a post qualifying fuel sample check came back with a higher than permitted amount of a trace hydrocarbon, although the transgression is not serious enough for him to be disqualified from the event. Therefore, Buemi will still be permitted to race, although he will have to start from the back of the grid if he wishes to take part in the race. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93301

Toro Rosso, for the record, believe that Buemi's fuel might have been contaminated from chemicals present within the new fuel pump that Toro Rosso fitted to Buemi's car following fuel pressure problems in FP1 and FP2.

tc3j3r · Post by **tc3j3r** » 24 Jul 2011, 09:21

mario wrote:Recent development here - Buemi has had his times erased after a post qualifying fuel sample check came back with a higher than permitted amount of a trace hydrocarbon, although the transgression is not serious enough for him to be disqualified from the event. Therefore, Buemi will still be permitted to race, although he will have to start from the back of the grid if he wishes to take part in the race. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93301

Toro Rosso, for the record, believe that Buemi's fuel might have been contaminated from chemicals present within the new fuel pump that Toro Rosso fitted to Buemi's car following fuel pressure problems in FP1 and FP2.

My post wasn't good enough? :cry:

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 24 Jul 2011, 09:36

tc3j3r wrote:
mario wrote:Recent development here - Buemi has had his times erased after a post qualifying fuel sample check came back with a higher than permitted amount of a trace hydrocarbon, although the transgression is not serious enough for him to be disqualified from the event. Therefore, Buemi will still be permitted to race, although he will have to start from the back of the grid if he wishes to take part in the race. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93301

Toro Rosso, for the record, believe that Buemi's fuel might have been contaminated from chemicals present within the new fuel pump that Toro Rosso fitted to Buemi's car following fuel pressure problems in FP1 and FP2.

My post wasn't good enough?

There there tc3j3r. Have a hug.

S951 · Post by **S951** » 24 Jul 2011, 10:23

H_Kovalainen Heikki Kovalainen
It's been raining this morning and showers expected all day so should be an interesting race!

Kova tweeted that a hour ago