Renault to become Group Lotus-Renault

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 08 Dec 2010, 09:08

The rumours have been proven true

Discuss.

Ed24 · Post by **Ed24** » 08 Dec 2010, 09:15

I can't think of many positives out of this, unfortunately.

Its disappointing that the Lotuses couldn't sort it out and link up Team Lotus and Group Lotus again... Now it looks like there will be further legal disputes.

Also, its disappointing that we've seen the last of the Renault yellow/black livery - probably my favourite in F1 for quite a few years. With the Lotus Racing green/gold livery gone as well, we've probably lost two of the best liveries.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 08 Dec 2010, 09:17

Gordon Bennett. (i.e.

). Right, they need Senna as a second driver.

What Tony Fernandes needs to do now is get his Lotuses in gold, red and white and sign Josh Hill onto a Driver Development Programme to eventually get him into that car.

And those red wing endplates just look wrong.

Shadaza · Post by **Shadaza** » 08 Dec 2010, 09:24

From Autosport.com

"The announcement of Group Lotus' plans for 2011 comes despite Tony Fernandes pushing on with his plans to race as Team Lotus next year - with his outfit now also having Renault engines and set to run in black and gold colours."

Wait what? I didn't actually think it could get more confusing, but it has.

in case of confusion break glass,

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 08 Dec 2010, 09:25

This is bathplug ridiculous. something has to give or we will have four gold and black liveried lotus renault lotuses or whatever on the grid.
Reject of the off-season: all forms of Lotus

eytl · Post by **eytl** » 08 Dec 2010, 09:38

Ed24 wrote:Its disappointing that the Lotuses couldn't sort it out and link up Team Lotus and Group Lotus again

+1

Ed24 wrote:Also, its disappointing that we've seen the last of the Renault yellow/black livery - probably my favourite in F1 for quite a few years.

+1 (and one of the most photogenic too, especially under lights)

dr-baker wrote:And those red wing endplates just look wrong.

+1

patrick wrote:This is bathplug ridiculous. something has to give or we will have four gold and black liveried lotus renault lotuses or whatever on the grid.

+1

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 08 Dec 2010, 09:42

At this rate you'll be able to outsource all your F1 Rejects work to us Enoch :lol:

Back on topic and I totally agree with everything that's been said so far. But it does raise the question of a possible works Proton effort in the future... that should be interesting.

Post by **Nuppiz** » 08 Dec 2010, 09:46

I can only imagine next year's TV broadcasts when one of these cars retires from a race:

"Is it Kubica? Trulli? Kovalainen? (insert second Renault driver here)?"

Not to mention the problems with commenting the teams in general, be it F1 broadcasts, the news, or internet forums. Or the GPM2 2011 Mod!

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 08 Dec 2010, 09:46

Facepalm, facepalm, facepalm. It seems that the only way we'll be able to tell them apart is one of them will be fighting Toro Rossos and the other fighting Mercedes(you'd hope, anyway). Although, to be honest, I actually quite like that livery...

Ed24 · Post by **Ed24** » 08 Dec 2010, 09:53

Also, I'm surprised that HP isn't on the car - maybe Sutil is bringing Medion to the team?

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 08 Dec 2010, 10:01

This is a shame for the Renault team as well - without Briatore, they emerged this year as a great team and got on with the job - and now GenII gets them caught up in this mess. How do we know GL/Proton won't start meddling?

The lack of certain sponsors on the picture may have little or no bearing on driver pairings next year - it may simply be they are yet to re-sign some sponsors, or even try and squeeze more money out of the Russians.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 08 Dec 2010, 10:17

Is it worth having the image itself here on this thread?

EDIT: Lotus plans receive Proton support. Well, d'uh.

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 08 Dec 2010, 10:27

Tony Fernandes wrote:Dany bahr has done us a favour. Never felt better about our future and Team Lotus. Looks like the trying to hijak our black and gold idea.

http://twitter.com/tonyfernandes/status ... 5762968577

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 08 Dec 2010, 10:53

I want to ask: are we all on Tony Fernandes's side here? I just happen to be biased towards him and he and I had been to the same boarding school, and in the same boarding house (albeit 14 years apart).

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 08 Dec 2010, 10:55

They must have reached some sort of deal with Fernandez's outfit, surely? We can't have two Lotus teams running about!

Glennerz · Post by **Glennerz** » 08 Dec 2010, 10:56

Tony Fernandes wrote:Dany bahr has done us a favour. Never felt better about our future and Team Lotus. Looks like the trying to hijak our black and gold idea.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but would the official Group Lotus not have more of a right to the black/gold livery (and indeed the Lotus name itself) than a team who dodgily and unconvincingly claim ownership solely through a Proton investment?

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 08 Dec 2010, 11:04

Glennerz wrote:
Tony Fernandes wrote:Dany bahr has done us a favour. Never felt better about our future and Team Lotus. Looks like the trying to hijak our black and gold idea.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but would the official Group Lotus not have more of a right to the black/gold livery (and indeed the Lotus name itself) than a team who dodgily and unconvincingly claim ownership solely through a Proton investment?

From what I understand, Group Lotus never owned Team Lotus, which was sold to David Hunt when the team went under. Since Fernandes bought it from Hunt, he has the right to use the name in F1 if he so pleases, as well as any livery he sees fit. Group Lotus and Proton are just trying to say "bathplug off", make a big fuss about it, and making the off season slightly more interesting.

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 08 Dec 2010, 11:09

Aside from the controversy, and aside from the livery it replaces, I think it's a gorgeous-looking thing.

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 08 Dec 2010, 11:14

Glennerz wrote:
Tony Fernandes wrote:Dany bahr has done us a favour. Never felt better about our future and Team Lotus. Looks like the trying to hijak our black and gold idea.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but would the official Group Lotus not have more of a right to the black/gold livery (and indeed the Lotus name itself) than a team who dodgily and unconvincingly claim ownership solely through a Proton investment?

To be frank, both claims are as dodgy as the legal ground it stands on. There also seems to be a lot of Malaysian politics involved.
Neither side is really Chapman's Lotus anymore - Group Lotus is a bloated, ridiculous shadow of its former self and it's plans will probably just bankrupt it further.
Team Lotus/Fernandes also have little claim to the Lotus name, but they have approached this year in a very good manner, and they won the fans hearts and a lot of the paddock.

Nobody likes seeing a great name dragged around like this, and I don't think either of them should use it. But I'd rather Fernandes and his team use it. I do not think Bahar and GL should.

Post by **mario** » 08 Dec 2010, 11:15

dr-baker wrote:I want to ask: are we all on Tony Fernandes's side here? I just happen to be biased towards him and he and I had been to the same boarding school, and in the same boarding house (albeit 14 years apart).

So far, it looks like it - as far as I see it, Fernandes has the legal right to use the Team Lotus name after acquiring them from David Hunt, has already notified the FIA about his intention to use the Team Lotus name, and had already announced his intention to use the black and gold livery that Group Lotus have suddenly decided to replicate.

Paul Hayes wrote:They must have reached some sort of deal with Fernandez's outfit, surely? We can't have two Lotus teams running about!

Evidently not - where it gets more confusing is that what has been signed is a title sponsorship agreement, whereby Renault have sold their stake in the team to concentrate on just supplying engines (though why you'd want to sell your stake in the team at a time when it is on the up is another matter). So, we have the strange situation whereby the team name includes the Group Lotus name, but in the constructors championship, they are still listed as just Renault F1 (because to change the constructors name would require either the other teams permission, or risk forfeiting Renault's allocated revenue from FOM).

The thing is, I can't imagine that Bernie is looking on at all of these antics favourably - yes, it is keeping the sport in the headlines during the off season, but not in a good way, and I can't see how it will help him attract sponsorship. If anything, it might cost him sponsorship, because I can't imagine that sponsors will be rushing to either team when there is a lot of confusion about what is going on, and the risk that you might end up backing the losing side in this dispute. I'm sure that behind the scenes, he must be trying to thrash a deal out between the two sides, if only for the stability of the sport (and therefore his revenue).

Glennerz · Post by **Glennerz** » 08 Dec 2010, 11:20

the Masked Lapwing wrote:From what I understand, Group Lotus never owned Team Lotus, which was sold to David Hunt when the team went under. Since Fernandes bought it from Hunt, he has the right to use the name in F1 if he so pleases, as well as any livery he sees fit. Group Lotus and Proton are just trying to say "bathplug off", make a big fuss about it, and making the off season slightly more interesting.

I see. Then I guess we will indeed see a battle of the black/gold liveries, and Lotus Renault Grand Prix (nope, I'm not calling them that all year - we need abbreviations, now) have already put themselves on the back foot with the Total red wing plates/ mirrors - hideous, worse than the 2010 Ferrari's white Santander wings!

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 08 Dec 2010, 11:29

Let's not forget the real winners here: JPS and Imperial Tobacco. They must be laughing all the way to the bank

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 08 Dec 2010, 11:56

@rf1paddockpass wrote:As promised, a world exclusive for you: the first real photo of the 2011 livery. Can’t wait to see it in action: http://yfrog.com/gyg50j

I thought they might do this. Things are getting dirty!

Glennerz · Post by **Glennerz** » 08 Dec 2010, 12:13

I haven't decided yet whether I love the livery as a whole, or hate it with a passion that burns with the fury of a thousand suns.

Your move, Fernandes.

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 08 Dec 2010, 12:17

Glennerz wrote:I haven't decided yet whether I love the livery as a whole, or hate it with a passion that burns with the fury of a thousand suns.

Your move, Fernandes.

I don't like it. It just doesn't fit with modern F1 cars - they aren't as angular and boxy as the ones that previously held this livery.
But indeed, I don't think Fernandes was quite expecting this.

madcat · Post by **madcat** » 08 Dec 2010, 12:20

I'm just dreading Leggard's comments/explanations/waffling everytime a team comes near the other.

From Lotus, from Lotus, from Lotus, from Lotus...but, but, they are not the same team! And they he'll explain it again...

"The long, cold winter nights will just fly by..."

JeanDenisAlcatraz · Post by **JeanDenisAlcatraz** » 08 Dec 2010, 12:39

*vomits*

What a ghastly livery. Colin Chapman must be spinning in his grave - it's all an affront to Lotus' legacy.

BigG80 · Post by **BigG80** » 08 Dec 2010, 12:54

If TheTeamFormerlyKnownAsToleman no longer wish to be known as Renault then I feel we have to splice the two team owner names together.

Therefore Proton +Genii = Protogenii which mutates to Progeny.

The definition of Progeny is a genetic descendant or offspring or an academic progeny.

I don't think that fits.

I'm still going to call the 1Malaysia F1 team Lotus.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 08 Dec 2010, 15:19

Renault - Name it Lotus Renault GP, black-gold? Okay, but then...
Lotus - Name it PROTON Lotus, and make it light blue and white!
--->

What do you guys think of this?

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 08 Dec 2010, 15:30

Shizuka wrote:Renault - Name it Lotus Renault GP, black-gold? Okay, but then...
Lotus - Name it PROTON Lotus, and make it light blue and white!
--->

What do you guys think of this?

Looks better than the monstrosity they presented today.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » 08 Dec 2010, 15:39

This is stupid, Group Lotus have never competed in F1, only Team Lotus have. Both always were two separate entities and as far as I can see, both current teams have the legal right to use the Lotus name, this can only end badly.

Post by **mario** » 08 Dec 2010, 16:03

Well, it seems that the reaction to the decision by Group Lotus/Proton has been pretty much universally condemned, with complaints about bullying tactics and a money grabbing attitude. And to be honest, Bahar isn't handling the situation brilliantly - I am listening to his interview with Radio Norfolk, where he went on about the Lotus brand and the commercial benefits of motorsport for Group Lotus, before then going on about how Group Lotus are planning on moving construction of Lotus road cars away from Hethel, and probably to South East Asia, again solely for commercial reasons.

So, for now, it looks as if we are going to have a real mess on our hands until we hear the results of the litigation between Group Lotus/Proton, and Fernandes, as it goes through the UK legal system. Bahar must be pretty desperate to win, because if he fails to do so, this could cost the company quite dearly - not only in terms of damages and potential further legal action (as some have suggested that Fernandes could then sue Group Lotus for "passing off", where one company pretends that they, or their products, are made by another company), but in terms of adverse publicity. I can only hope that either the court case is resolved very quickly (which, based on precedence, you would expect Group Lotus to come off the worst), or somebody like Bernie can get the heads of both organisations together and thrash out an agreement.

On another note, there is an interesting aside - can somebody confirm if the rights that David Hunt has to the Team Lotus name were international, or only for a company registered and operating from the UK? The reason that I'm asking is because a commentator on Joe Saward's blog has provided a very useful link to the United States Patent and Trademark Office. It seems that Group Lotus were not just trying to lodge an application with the United Kingdom Intellectual Property Office, where both Lotus Racing and Group Lotus have filed claims to the Team Lotus name.

A quick search shows that Group Lotus have made two applications in the US - the first, on April 27th 2010, was a claim to the Team Lotus name, and requesting the right to use the name for, amongst other things, clothing, assorted memorabilia and merchandising, and, more importantly, vehicles and vehicle equipment. The second application was on October 27th, and that was for the Team Lotus logo (the famous CABC symbol), again for sundry merchandising and vehicular application. Although I cannot link to the documents directly, you can access the electronic trademark search facility through here http://tess2.uspto.gov/ (look for the link marked TESS on the left hand side).

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 08 Dec 2010, 16:04

If this were nothing to do with the Lotus history, would people still think it was a ghastly livery and be vomiting, or are people projecting their opinions of the controversy onto their appreciation of the aesthetic? At worst, it's just a black and gold racing car; personally I think it looks lovely.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 08 Dec 2010, 16:09

Go home, Proton. You're not a bunch of plucky, hard-trying guys trying to revive a famous name, you're just a bunch of greedy faceless suits looking to get rich off of said famous name. You also ruined the best livery in Formula 1. Go home, Proton.

And I think the livery is alright, but knowing what it has replaced and what it stands for makes me very, very angry.

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 08 Dec 2010, 16:32

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Go home, Proton. You're not a bunch of plucky, hard-trying guys trying to revive a famous name, you're just a bunch of greedy faceless suits looking to get rich off of said famous name. You also ruined the best livery in Formula 1. Go home, Proton.

And I think the livery is alright, but knowing what it has replaced and what it stands for makes me very, very angry.

I don't want to just pad the thread with "+1" and so on, but I agree with this statement SO HARD.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 08 Dec 2010, 16:43

The UK court case as to whether David Hunt had the right to sell the Team Lotus name to Fernandes has still to be resolved with, as I understand it, no date yet set down. "Next year" is all that has been said. With the Xmas recess it will run very close to the 1st race I fear, if not exceed that date.
After that it becomes a matter for the Malaysian courts to decide who owns what. (Depending on the outcome). Fernandes is, I believe, a popular figure in Malaysia & the behaviour of Group/Proton may not be considered that of a reasonable party.
On another front, Proton are currently struggling & where they're going throwing money into F1 is not really clear.
I have seen mentioned the possibility of a merger with Perodua who cannot produce enough of their cars at present & Proton have spare capacity.
This will be sorted before the season start. BCE will see to that. The situation as it stands is unacceptable.
Personally. I will side with Fernandes. I hope he continues as Team Lotus, preferably in Green & Yellow. Never a fan of the JPS livery (except when Elio & Ayrton were teammates).

Can't do a post without being facetious so get Ted Toleman back from retirement in the Phillipines to run Toleman-Perodua-Renault.....put Bruno in the car....

Glennerz · Post by **Glennerz** » 08 Dec 2010, 17:22

Yes please. Lord knows we need some variety and originality in livery designs, seeing the overpowering mass of silver/white/blue on the modern grid bores me even before the race starts. That's why last year's Renault was such a breath of fresh air, and colour schemes of its ilk in terms of creativity are few and far between these days. I will not be fully satisfied until we see a bright green car, a pink car (go for it McLaren, silver belongs to Mercedes now) and a rainbow tie-dye/glitter/mirrorball beast on the line-up!!!

Shadaza · Post by **Shadaza** » 08 Dec 2010, 17:47

The whole affair reminds me of a Mitchell and Webb sketch like so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otOE25ew ... re=related

I mean even they couldn't screw it up right?

All though rather then it ending in a hilarious misunderstanding I can only sense the doom of the lotus name for both sides.

mediocre · Post by **mediocre** » 08 Dec 2010, 18:01

Glennerz wrote:

What's that? Proton entering WTCC?

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 08 Dec 2010, 18:03

mediocre wrote:
Glennerz wrote:

What's that? Proton entering WTCC?

It's an old BTCC pic from 2002.