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Jules Bianchi car number alt. championship
Posted: 12 Nov 2010, 19:24
by dr-baker
Renamed in honour of Jules Bianchi, who was the first driver to have a permanent car number retired by the FIA.
So the concept of this alternative championship is this: the less good the team, the more impressive each point that they score is. So each point that Minardi scores is worth more to Minardi than the same number of points is to Ferrari. How to reward this? Well, since 1996, car numbers have been allocated based on the previous year's Constructors' Championship. So multiply the points by the allocated car number and you may get a more representative points total based on how hard they were to score. Or maybe not. Let's see.
From 1950 to 1973, car numbers changed from race to race, so I calculated the tables race-by-race, which led to an odd result in 1958, where the championship winner only entered one race, with a 2nd place, and a car number in the hundreds (as was possible at the time). 1974 to 1995 saw the Driver's Champion take the number 1 to whichever team he drove for the following year, with that team's numbers going to the previous team to run 1 and 2. 1996 to 2013 saw car numbers reflect the performance of each team from the previous season. The current system (from 2014 onwards) sees drivers enter with career-long car numbers.
Overall Championship Table with car numbers and drivers' teams
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year Winner car no. Points Originally Driver's Team
1950 Juan-Manuel Fangio n/a 458 2nd Alfa Romeo
1951 Juan-Manuel Fangio n/a 979 1st Alfa Romeo
1952 Alberto Ascari n/a 1218 1st Ferrari
1953 Juan-Manuel Fangio n/a 762 2nd Maserati
1954 Juan-Manuel Fangio n/a 686 1st Maserati, Mercedes
1955 Maurice Trintignant n/a 389 ? 4th Ferrari
1956 Stirling Moss n/a 699 2nd Maserati
1957 Stirling Moss n/a 502 2nd Maserati, Vanwall
1958 George Amick n/a 594 15th Epperly
1959 Phil Hill n/a 544 4th Ferrari
Code: Select all
1960 Olivier Gendebien n/a 400 6th Cooper
1961 Giancarlo Baghetti n/a 450 9th Ferrari
1962 Bruce McLaren n/a 452 3rd Cooper
1963 Jim Clark n/a 428 1st Lotus
1964 Jim Clark n/a 416 3rd Lotus
1965 Jackie Stewart n/a 504 3rd BRM
1966 Jack Brabham n/a 354 1st Brabham
1967 Dan Gurney n/a 364 8th Eagle
1968 Jacky Ickx n/a 439 4th Ferrari
1969 Jackie Stewart n/a 438 1st Matra
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1970 Jacky Ickx n/a 466 2nd Ferrari
1971 Ronnie Peterson n/a 640 2nd March
1972 Emerson Fittipaldi n/a 824 1st Lotus
1973 James Hunt n/a 378 8th March
1974 Clay Regazzoni 11 572 2nd Ferrari
1975 James Hunt 24 792 4th Hesketh
1976 James Hunt 11 759 1st McLaren
1977 Jody Scheckter 20 1100 2nd Wolf
1978 Carlos Reutemann 11 528 3rd Ferrari
1979 Alan Jones 27 1080 3rd Williams
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1980 Alan Jones 27 1809 1st Williams
1981 Jacques Laffite 26 1144 4th Ligier
1982 Didier Pironi 28 1092 2nd Ferrari
1983 Rene Arnoux 28 1372 3rd Ferrari
1984 Michele Alboreto 27 823 ½ 4th Ferrari
1985 Michele Alboreto 27 1431 2nd Ferrari
1986 Ayrton Senna 12 660 4th Lotus
1987 Gerhard Berger 28 1008 5th Ferrari
1988 Gerhard Berger 28 1148 3rd Ferrari
1989 Nigel Mansell 27 1026 4th Ferrari
Code: Select all
1990 Ayrton Senna 27 2106 1st McLaren
1991 Alain Prost 27 918 5th Ferrari
1992 Michael Schumacher 19 1007 3rd Benetton
1993 Ayrton Senna 8 584 2nd McLaren
1994 Gerhard Berger 28 1148 3rd Ferrari
1995 Jean Alesi 27 1134 5th Ferrari
1996 Damon Hill 5 485 1st Williams
1997 David Coulthard 10 360 3rd= McLaren
1998 Mika Hakkinen 8 800 1st McLaren
1999 Heinz-Harald Frentzen 8 432 3rd Jordan
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2000 Jacques Villeneuve 22 374 7th BAR
2001 David Coulthard 4 260 2nd McLaren
2002 Juan-Pablo Montoya 6 300 3rd Williams
2003 Kimi Raikkonen 6 546 2nd McLaren
2004 Jenson Button 9 765 3rd BAR
2005 Kimi Raikkonen 9 1008 2nd McLaren
2006 Jenson Button 12 672 6th Honda
2007 Kimi Raikkonen 6 660 1st Ferrari
2008 Lewis Hamilton 22 2156 1st McLaren
2009 Jenson Button 22 2090 1st Brawn
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2010 Fernando Alonso 8 2016 2nd Ferrari
2011 Fernando Alonso 5 1285 4th Ferrari
2012 Kimi Raikkonen 9 1863 3rd Lotus (Enstone)
2013 Lewis Hamilton 10 1890 4th Mercedes
2014 Lewis Hamilton 44 16896 1st Mercedes
2015 Lewis Hamilton 44 16764 1st Mercedes
2016 Lewis Hamilton 44 16720 2nd Mercedes
2017 Valtteri Bottas 77 23485 3rd Mercedes
2018 Valterri Bottas 77 19019 5th Mercedes
2019 Valterri Bottas 77 25102 2nd Mercedes
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2020 Valterri Bottas 77 17171 2nd Mercedes
2021 Valterri Bottas 77 17402 3rd Mercedes
2022 George Russell 63 17325 4th Mercedes
Champions by number of titles won
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Lewis Hamilton 2008 2013 2014 2015 2016
Valterri Bottas 2017 2018 2019 2020 2021
Juan-Manuel Fangio 1950 1951 1953 1954
Kimi Raikkonen 2003 2005 2007 2012
James Hunt 1973 1975 1976
Ayrton Senna 1986 1990 1993
Gerhard Berger 1987 1988 1994
Jenson Button 2004 2006 2009
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Stirling Moss 1956 1957
Jim Clark 1963 1964
Jackie Stewart 1965 1969
Jacky Ickx 1968 1970
Alan Jones 1979 1980
Michele Alboreto 1984 1985
David Coulthard 1997 2001
Fernando Alonso 2010 2011
Code: Select all
Alberto Ascari 1952
Maurice Trintignant 1955
George Amick 1958
Phil Hill 1959
Olivier Gendebien 1960
Giancarlo Baghetti 1961
Bruce McLaren 1962
Jack Brabham 1966
Dan Gurney 1967
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Ronnie Peterson 1971
Emerson Fittipaldi 1972
Clay Reggazzoni 1974
Jody Scheckter 1977
Carlos Reutemann 1978
Jacques Laffite 1981
Didier Pironi 1982
Rene Arnoux 1983
Nigel Mansell 1989
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Alain Prost 1991
Michael Schumacher 1992
Jean Alesi 1995
Damon Hill 1996
Mika Hakkinen 1998
Heinz-Harald Frentzen 1999
Jacques Villeneuve 2000
Juan-Pablo Montoya 2002
George Russell 2022
1996
The first year to be calculated, as it was the first year to have car numbers based on performance in the previous year's championship, meaning smaller teams get a larger car number. The larger the car number, the larger the points multiplier! (Hence why Ferrari do well in the 1980s and early 1990s...)
Code: Select all
position Driver Team car number points total revised total original position
1st Damon Hill Williams 5 97 485 1st
2nd Jacques Villeneuve Williams 6 78 468 2nd
3rd Mika Hakkinen McLaren 7 31 217 5th
4th Rubens Barrichello Jordan 11 14 154 8th
5th David Coulthard McLaren 8 18 144 7th
6th Jean Alesi Benetton 3 47 141 4th
7th Olivier Panis Ligier 9 13 117 9th
8th Heinz-Harald Frentzen Sauber 15 7 105 12th
9th Martin Brundle Jordan 12 8 96 11th
10th Mika Salo Tyrrell 19 5 95 13th
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11th Gerhard Berger Benetton 4 21 84 6th
12th Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1 59 59 3rd
13th Johnny Herbert Sauber 14 4 56 14th
14th Eddie Irvine Ferrari 2 11 22 10th
15th Pedro Diniz Ligier 10 2 20 15th
16th Jos Verstappen Footwork 17 1 17 16th
Biggest loser, happily, is Schumacher, and hopefully will be in the early 21st century. Ferrari loose out majorly in the Constructors' with McLaren and Jordan the big gainers.
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1st Williams 485 + 468 953
2nd McLaren 217 + 144 361
3rd Jordan 154 + 96 250
4th Benetton 141 + 84 225
5th Sauber 105 + 56 161
6th Ligier 117 + 20 137
7th Tyrrell 95 95
8th Ferrari 59 + 22 81
9th Footwork 17 17
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 12 Nov 2010, 19:44
by James1978
Fantastic!!!!
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 12 Nov 2010, 19:44
by Bleu
Good points coming for Hamilton and Button in last two seasons...
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 12 Nov 2010, 20:19
by dr-baker
1997 almost but not quite complete (will post tomorrow) but one intersting thing to note:
Original results: 2 drivers tie for 3rd, 2 tie for 5th in the overall championship
Altered results: 2 drivers tie for 3rd, 2 tie for 5th in the overall championship, but obviously, different drivers in each case...
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 12 Nov 2010, 20:34
by James1978
I feel a bit sorry for Arrows in 1997..............
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 13 Nov 2010, 07:16
by tommykl
Should I eventually do this from 1950 to 1995 after I finish the medals (if it gets enough votes, of course)?
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 13 Nov 2010, 07:24
by TomWazzleshaw
tommykl wrote:Should I eventually do this from 1950 to 1995 after I finish the medals (if it gets enough votes, of course)?
There's no point in doing this before 1996 because of the different car numbering system before that point.
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 13 Nov 2010, 09:10
by James1978
If you can work out what teams would have had what numbers in the 80s and early/mid 90s, should be good i think!
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 13 Nov 2010, 10:35
by Salamander
Wizzie wrote:tommykl wrote:Should I eventually do this from 1950 to 1995 after I finish the medals (if it gets enough votes, of course)?
There's no point in doing this before 1996 because of the different car numbering system before that point.
Plus, it means Ferrari will pretty much dominate the 80's and 90's unopposed.
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 13 Nov 2010, 11:57
by tommykl
Maybe, but then, Alboreto and maybe Johansson would be champions. Also, Ligier.
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 13 Nov 2010, 16:25
by dr-baker
tommykl wrote:Should I eventually do this from 1950 to 1995 after I finish the medals (if it gets enough votes, of course)?
Go ahead. I like that idea. By the way, how will you work out which cars deserve which numbers in 1950? The 1950 championship positions will naturally carry forward to 1951's car numbers. An estimation from some selected 1949 races perhaps?
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 13 Nov 2010, 16:41
by dr-baker
James1978 wrote:I feel a bit sorry for Arrows in 1997..............
Indeed. But because they did score, they were ahead of Minardi, yet to score in this alternative universe, because they did not score in our real universe.
But looking forward to when they do eventually score!
Anyway,:
1997Code: Select all
position Driver Team car number points total revised total original position
1st David Coulthard McLaren 10 36 360 3rd=
2nd Jean Alesi Benetton 7 36 252 3rd=
3rd= Jacques Villeneuve Williams 3 81 243 1st
3rd= Mika Hakkinen McLaren 9 27 243 5th=
5th= Giancarlo Fisichella Jordan 12 20 240 8th
5th= Johnny Herbert Sauber 16 15 240 10th
7th Olivier Panis Prost 14 16 224 9th
8th Gerhard Berger Benetton 8 27 216 5th=
9th Heinz-Harald Frentzen Williams 4 42 168 2nd
10th Eddie Irvine Ferrari 6 24 144 7th
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11th Ralf Schumacher Jordan 11 13 143 11th
12th Rubens Barrichello Stewart 22 6 132 13th
13th Jarno Trulli Prost 14 3 42 15th
14th Mika Salo Tyrrell 19 2 38 16th=
15th Alex Wurz Benetton 8 4 32 14th
16th Shinji Nakano Prost 15 2 30 16th=
17th Nicola Larini Sauber 17 1 17 19th
18th Damon Hill Arrows 1 7 7 12th
19th Pedro Diniz Arrows 2 2 4 16th=
DSQ Michael Schumacher Ferrari 5 78 390 DSQ
Frentzen really looses out under this. And under this points system, Schumi would have had no need to take anybody out in Jerez as he would have won the championship anyway (DNF'ed and in the gravel trap). Biggest gainers seem to be Fisichella and Herbert.
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1st McLaren 360 + 243 603 4th
2nd Ferrari 390 + 144 534 2nd
3rd Benetton 252 + 216 + 32 500 3rd
4th Williams 243 + 168 411 1st
5th Jordan 240 + 143 383 5th
6th Prost 224 + 42 + 30 296 6th
7th Sauber 240 + 17 257 7th
8th Stewart 132 132 9th
9th Tyrrell 38 38 10th
10th Arrows 7 + 4 11 8th
McLaren are the significant gainers at Williams' expense. Otherwise Arrows merely loose out to Stewart and Tyrrell.
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 14 Nov 2010, 08:14
by tommykl
dr-baker wrote:tommykl wrote:Should I eventually do this from 1950 to 1995 after I finish the medals (if it gets enough votes, of course)?
Go ahead. I like that idea. By the way, how will you work out which cars deserve which numbers in 1950? The 1950 championship positions will naturally carry forward to 1951's car numbers. An estimation from some selected 1949 races perhaps?
I already explained that befoer 1974, numbers were awarded by order of entry, with usually the best entering early. Coincidentally, the German, Italian, French and Monaco GP all used different nubering systems, so it will reward points scorers in these GPs. The goal of this Championship is to get different winners every year, not to be fair.
Gilles Villeneuve would probably in this one!
Remember, the privateer and works teams could enter how many cars they liked...
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 14 Nov 2010, 10:20
by James1978
Predictions for champions from 1998 to date:
1998 Hakkinen
1999 Frentzen
2000 Villeneuve (car 22 remember)
2001 Heidfeld maybe?
2002 Button?
2003 Alonso?
2004 Button
2005 Ralf Schumacher (car 17!!)
2006 Button
2007 Heidfeld
2008 Hamilton
2009 Button
2010 Alonso (his total will be over 2000 as long as he comes 8th or better today......)
Button and Heidfeld seem to do very well out of this!
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 14 Nov 2010, 23:25
by Benetton
In 1999 Barrichello will take it, being in car #16..
Good alternative championship. But wouldn't it be more reliable if you took the constructors championship results and then re-assigned the numbers for that year. Then the relative car strength / driver ability would be more reliable and interesting, and actually useful.
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 15 Nov 2010, 20:10
by dr-baker
Benetton wrote:In 1999 Barrichello will take it, being in car #16..
Good alternative championship. But wouldn't it be more reliable if you took the constructors championship results and then re-assigned the numbers for that year. Then the relative car strength / driver ability would be more reliable and interesting, and actually useful.
That's in the planning. I'll do this version first and either I or somebody else can do the relative reallocation...
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 18 Nov 2010, 19:50
by dr-baker
Just bumping this to remind myself to continue with this tomorrow... Hopefully.
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 19 Nov 2010, 11:59
by dr-baker
1998Code: Select all
position Driver Team car number points total revised total original position
1st Mika Hakkinen McLaren 8 100 800 1st
2nd David Coulthard McLaren 7 56 392 3rd
3rd Michael Schumacher Ferrari 3 86 258 2nd
4th Eddie Irvine Ferrari 4 47 188 4th
5th Damon Hill Jordan 9 20 180 6th
6th Ralf Schumacher Jordan 10 14 140 10th
7th Jean Alesi Sauber 14 9 126 11th
8th Alex Wurz Benetton 6 17 102 7th=
9th Giancarlo Fisichella Benetton 5 16 80 9th
10th Rubens Barrichello Stewart 18 4 72 12th
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11th Mika Salo Arrows 17 3 51 13th=
12th Pedro Diniz Arrows 16 3 48 13th=
13th Heinz-Harald Frentzen Williams 2 17 34 7th=
14th Jacques Villeneuve Williams 1 21 21 5th
15th Jan Magnussen Stewart 19 1 19 15th=
16th Johnny Herbert Sauber 15 1 15 15th=
17th Jarno Trulli Prost 12 1 12 15th=
Mika Hakkinen has a massive winning advantage here, scoring more than twice as many points as his teammate in second. Williams have a disaster while R. Schuamcher and Jean Alesi are the biggest gainers of positions. Johnny Herbert has a shocker compared to his teammate, costing Sauber a position in the Constructor's. Also a bit of a Noah's Ark effect in the Drivers' Championship, as this type of championship might have been considered to produce, if each driver in each team is reasonably evenly matched. The Arrows, Williams, McLaren, Ferrari, Jordan and Benetton drivers are all next to each other here. Didn't happen so dramatically in '96 or '97. Will it happen again?
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1st McLaren 800 + 392 1192
2nd Ferrari 258 + 188 446
3rd Jordan 180 + 140 320
4th Benetton 102 + 80 182
5th Sauber 126 + 15 141
6th Arrows 51 + 48 99
7th Stewart 72 + 19 91
8th Williams 34 + 21 55
9th Prost 12 12
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 19 Nov 2010, 12:05
by dr-baker
Before I move onto 1999, I am imagining that this system will hinder Mika for 1999, and Michael Schumacher from 2001 to 2005, while they carry the real-life no. 1. After I complete this, it would be facinating to reallocate the numbers based on this alternative Constructors positions. Although that might allow Michael to regain some of his lost championships that he will loose from 2001 onwards... Maybe.
tommykl wrote:I already explained that befoer 1974, numbers were awarded by order of entry, with usually the best entering early. Coincidentally, the German, Italian, French and Monaco GP all used different nubering systems, so it will reward points scorers in these GPs. The goal of this Championship is to get different winners every year, not to be fair. Gilles Villeneuve would probably in this one!
Remember, the privateer and works teams could enter how many cars they liked...
Actually, the idea IS to be fair - fair to those less able to score points consistantly by rewarding them fairer. At least, with my system, hense why I began in 1996.
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 19 Nov 2010, 13:07
by dr-baker
1999Code: Select all
position Driver Team car number points total revised total original position
1st Heinz-Harald Frentzen Jordan 8 54 432 3rd
2nd Rubens Barrichello Stewart 16 21 336 7th
3rd Eddie Irvine Ferrari 4 74 296 2nd
4th Johnny Herbert Stewart 17 15 255 8th
5th Ralf Schumacher Williams 6 35 210 6th
6th Jarno Trulli Prost 19 7 133 11th=
7th Michael Schumacher Ferrari 3 44 132 5th
8th Giancarlo Fisichella Benetton 9 13 117 9th
9th David Coulthard McLaren 2 48 96 4th
10th Mika Hakkinen McLaren 1 76 76 1st
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11th Damon Hill Jordan 7 7 49 11th=
12th= Pedro Diniz Sauber 12 3 36 13th=
12th= Olivier Panis Prost 18 2 36 15th=
14th= Mika Salo Ferrari 3 10 30 10th
14th= Alex Wurz Benetton 10 3 30 13th=
16th Jean Alesi Sauber 11 2 22 15th=
17th Marc Gene Minardi 21 1 21 17th=
18th Pedro de la Rosa Arrows 14 1 14 17th=
We finally get one team gain significantly from this - Stewart! Although Frentzen gets the Driver's title (has he won any in any other alternatives?). And the two McLarens really loose out here. This season has provided the biggest and most significant changes so far, I think.
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1st Stewart 336 + 255 591
2nd Jordan 432 + 49 481
3rd Ferrari 296 + 132 + 30 458
4th Williams 210 210
5th McLaren 96 + 76 172
6th Prost 133 + 36 169
7th Benetton 117 + 30 147
8th Sauber 36 + 22 58
9th Minardi 21 21
10th Arrows 14 14
Thought 2010 was the first time Red Bull had won the constructors' title? They already had done so in this version of reality (in their former guise of Stewart)! And Minardi beat Arrows!
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 19 Nov 2010, 18:28
by dr-baker
James1978 wrote:Predictions for champions from 1998 to date:
1998 Hakkinen
1999 Frentzen
2000 Villeneuve (car 22 remember)
As you will see below as well, 3/3 so far... I wasn't sure Villeneuve was going to have scored enough points for the car number multiplier to be sufficient, but it was. Just one or two points finishes less (out of 7 total) and he would have failed...
Benetton wrote:In 1999 Barrichello will take it, being in car #16..
Barrichello in 1999? Almost, but Frentzen's car number was exactly half that of Rubens, but had scored more than twice as many real points so retains the position ahead.
Anyway, onto the 21st century!
2000Code: Select all
position Driver Team car number points total revised total original position
1st Jacques Villeneuve BAR 22 17 374 7th
2nd Michael Schumacher Ferrari 3 108 324 1st
3rd Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 4 62 248 4th
4th Ralf Schumacher Williams 9 24 216 5th
5th Giancarlo Fisichella Benetton 11 18 198 6th
6th David Coulthard McLaren 2 73 146 3rd
7th Jenson Button Williams 10 12 120 8th
8th Mika Salo Sauber 17 6 102 10th=
9th Jos Verstappen Arrows 19 5 95 12th
10th Mika Hakkinen McLaren 1 89 89 2nd
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11th Ricardo Zonta BAR 23 3 69 14th
12th Heinz-Harald Frentzen Jordan 5 11 55 9th
13th= Jarno Trulli Jordan 6 6 36 10th=
13th= Pedro de la Rosa Arrows 18 2 36 15th=
15th Eddie Irvine Jaguar 7 4 28 13th
16th Alex Wurz Benetton 12 2 24 15th=
Jacques Villeneuve scores the championship he didn't win in 1997, thanks to BAR being so rubbish in their debut season! And he wins this title with no podiums whatsoever! And DC looses out thanks to his lowly car number.
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1st Ferrari 324 + 248 572
2nd BAR 374 + 69 443
3rd Williams 216 + 120 336
4th McLaren 146 + 89 - 10 225
5th Benetton 198 + 24 222
6th Arrows 95 + 36 131
7th Sauber 102 102
8th Jordan 55 + 36 91
9th Jaguar 28 28
Ferrari win this, thanks to a better, significantly better-scoring no. 2 driver! And Sauber could have overtaken Arrows if only Pedro Diniz could have scored points just once or twice...
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 20 Nov 2010, 11:20
by tommykl
dr-baker wrote:Before I move onto 1999, I am imagining that this system will hinder Mika for 1999, and Michael Schumacher from 2001 to 2005, while they carry the real-life no. 1. After I complete this, it would be facinating to reallocate the numbers based on this alternative Constructors positions. Although that might allow Michael to regain some of his lost championships that he will loose from 2001 onwards... Maybe.
tommykl wrote:I already explained that befoer 1974, numbers were awarded by order of entry, with usually the best entering early. Coincidentally, the German, Italian, French and Monaco GP all used different nubering systems, so it will reward points scorers in these GPs. The goal of this Championship is to get different winners every year, not to be fair. Gilles Villeneuve would probably in this one!
Remember, the privateer and works teams could enter how many cars they liked...
Actually, the idea IS to be fair - fair to those less able to score points consistantly by rewarding them fairer. At least, with my system, hense why I began in 1996.
I'll try to find a system based on that year's championship, but I'll have to use an entrants' championship instead of a contructors' championship. I was thinking of looking at the maximum number of entrants the team had that year in a single race, and award numbers based on that. Example: in 1950, let's say Alfa Romeo (who finished first) entered between 2 and 5 cars. Their cars will wear numbers 1-5, with the higher numbers not used if there aren't enough cars.
Let's say, in the same year, that the factory Maserati team finished 2nd in the entrants' championship, entering between 1 and 4 cars every race, they will be awarded numbers 6-9...
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 20 Nov 2010, 12:42
by dr-baker
tommykl wrote:Actually, the idea IS to be fair - fair to those less able to score points consistantly by rewarding them fairer. At least, with my system, hense why I began in 1996.
I'll try to find a system based on that year's championship, but I'll have to use an entrants' championship instead of a contructors' championship. I was thinking of looking at the maximum number of entrants the team had that year in a single race, and award numbers based on that. Example: in 1950, let's say Alfa Romeo (who finished first) entered between 2 and 5 cars. Their cars will wear numbers 1-5, with the higher numbers not used if there aren't enough cars.
Let's say, in the same year, that the factory Maserati team finished 2nd in the entrants' championship, entering between 1 and 4 cars every race, they will be awarded numbers 6-9...[/quote]
Sounds an interesting idea.
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 20 Nov 2010, 15:32
by tommykl
That'll be the next thing I start then. The "Disqualify every driver from their home GP" thing will start at the end of the mediocrity awards.
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 20 Nov 2010, 17:29
by dr-baker
tommykl wrote: The "Disqualify every driver from their home GP" thing will start at the end of the mediocrity awards.
That'll suit the Finns and Rubens! And the Indy 500 should pretty much automatically delete itself from that shouldn't it?
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 20 Nov 2010, 18:09
by dr-baker
Forgot to mention that for the 2000 Constructors' Championship, the McLaren team were docked 10 points for Hakkinen's win due to a missing seal from the black box. So I deducted 10 x 1 = 10 points. So McLaren were fortunate to only finish 3 points ahead of Benetton.
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 20 Nov 2010, 18:17
by tommykl
dr-baker wrote:tommykl wrote: The "Disqualify every driver from their home GP" thing will start at the end of the mediocrity awards.
That'll suit the Finns and Rubens! And the Indy 500 should pretty much automatically delete itself from that shouldn't it?
It probably will. About the Indy 500, I think the only driver to ever be eligible when it was an F1 race was Ascari in 1952, who retired...
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 21 Nov 2010, 16:50
by dr-baker
James1978 wrote:Predictions for champions from 1998 to date:
2001 Heidfeld maybe?
2002 Button?
Third places in both cases! Once I had compiled the car numbers alongside the points, these two both looked likely, but ended up not being enough. Will post these two years as seperate posts.
2001Code: Select all
position Driver Team car number points total revised total original position
1st David Coulthard McLaren 4 65 260 2nd
2nd Ralf Schumacher Williams 5 49 245 4th
3rd Nick Heidfeld Sauber 16 12 192 7th=
4th Juan-Pablo Montoya Williams 6 31 186 6th
5th Kimi Raikkonen Sauber 17 9 153 10th
6th Jarno Trulli Jordan 12 12 144 7th=
7th Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1 123 123 1st
8th Jacques Villeneuve BAR 10 12 120 7th=
9th Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 2 56 112 3rd
10th Mika Hakkinen McLaren 3 37 111 5th
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11th Eddie Irvine Jaguar 18 6 108 12th=
12th Jean Alesi 5 90 (66 + 24) 14th=
(Prost 22 3 66)
(Jordan 12 2 24)
13th Heinz-Harald Frentzen Jordan 11 6 66 12th=
14th Pedro de la Rosa Jaguar 19 3 57 16th
15th Giancarlo Fisichella Benetton 7 8 56 11th
16th Olivier Panis BAR 9 5 45 14th=
17th Jenson Button Benetton 8 2 16 17th
18th Jos Verstappen Arrows 14 1 14 18th
So we have our first driver scoring points for two different teams in the same year, so not all Alesi's points are worth the same! The two Sauber drivers are the two biggest gainers, while the two Ferrari drivers loose out, as they will every year until 2005 inclusive!
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1st Williams 245 + 186 431
2nd McLaren 260 + 111 371
3rd Sauber 192 + 153 345
4th Ferrari 123 + 11 235
5th Jordan 144 + 24 + 66 234
6th= BAR 120 + 45 165
6th= Jaguar 108 + 57 165
8th Benetton 56 + 16 72
9th Prost 66 66
10th Arrows 14 14
Despite Sauber's big gains in the driver's championship, the team finish only third here.
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 21 Nov 2010, 16:55
by dr-baker
2002Code: Select all
position Driver Team car number points total revised total original position
1st Juan-Pablo Montoya Williams 6 50 300 3rd
2nd= Ralf Schumacher Williams 5 42 210 4th
2nd= Jenson Button Renault 15 14 210 7th
4th Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 2 77 154 2nd
5th Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1 144 144 1st
6th Eddie Irvine Jaguar 16 8 128 9th
7th Jarno Trulli Renault 14 9 126 8th
8th David Coulthard McLaren 3 41 123 5th
9th Kimi Raikkonen McLaren 4 24 96 6th
10th Giancarlo Fisichella Jordan 9 7 63 10th=
Code: Select all
11th Nick Heidfeld Sauber 7 7 49 10th=
12th Mika Salo Toyota 24 2 48 15th=
13th Mark Webber Minardi 23 2 46 15th=
14th Jacques Villeneuve BAR 11 4 44 12th=
15th Heinz-Harald Frentzen Arrows 20 2 40 15th=
16th Olivier Panis BAR 12 3 36 14th
17th Felipe Massa Sauber 8 4 32 12th=
18th Takuma Sato Jordan 10 2 20 15th=
Button is 2nd=, and placed third on wins (or lack of them!). And this would be Minardi's best placing in the driver's championship for a long time, if ever.
Code: Select all
1st Williams 300 + 210 510
2nd Renault 210 + 126 336
3rd Ferrari 154 + 144 298
4th McLaren 123 + 96 219
5th Jaguar 128 128
6th Jordan 63 + 20 83
7th Sauber 49 + 32 81
8th BAR 44 + 36 80
9th Toyota 48 48
10th Minardi 46 46
11th Arrows 40 40
Minardi only beat one other point-scoring team. Not what I was hoping for.
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 21 Nov 2010, 16:59
by dr-baker
From another thread:
Super Aguri wrote:Sorting it out.
Once you have this, I tend to copy the sorted columns, go to Notepad (or a basic text editor program) and delete the tabs and replacing them with spaces so they line up. Then use the Code button in the forum editor screen and paste in the results.
I will do this once I have posted all the results. Does look a bit messy at the moment!
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 21 Nov 2010, 17:49
by dr-baker
James1978 wrote:2003 Alonso?
No. 2nd. By some margin, it seems.
Code: Select all
position Driver Team car number points total revised total original position
1st Kimi Raikkonen McLaren 6 91 546 2nd
2nd Fernando Alonso Renault 8 55 440 6th
3rd Jenson Button BAR 17 17 289 9th=
4th David Coulthard McLaren 5 51 255 7th
5th Juan-Pablo Montoya Williams 3 82 246 3rd
6th Mark Webber Jaguar 14 17 238 9th=
7th Ralf Schumacher Williams 4 58 232 5th
8th Jarno Trulli Renault 7 33 231 8th
9th Cristiano da Matta Toyota 21 10 210 13th
10th Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 2 65 135 4th
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11th Giancarlo Fisichella Jordan 11 12 132 12th
12th Heinz-Harald Frentzen Sauber 10 13 130 11th
13th Olivier Panis Toyota 20 6 120 14th=
14th Jacques Villeneuve BAR 16 6 96 14th=
15th Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1 93 93 1st
16th Nick Heidfeld Sauber 9 6 54 14th=
17th Takuma Sato BAR 16 3 48 18th
18th Marc Gene Williams 4 4 16 17th
19th Justin Wilson Jaguar 15 1 15 19th=
20th Ralph Firman Jordan 12 1 12 19th=
Jenson is a big winner and (I love saying this!) Michael Schumacher is a big loser! Just goes to show how competitive the smaller teams did in 2003, with both, or all 3, drivers scoring.
Code: Select all
1st McLaren 546 + 255 801
2nd Renault 440 + 231 671
3rd Williams 246 + 232 + 16 494
4th BAR 289 + 96 + 48 433
5th Toyota 210 + 120 330
6th Jaguar 238 + 15 253
7th Ferrari 135 + 93 228
8th Sauber 130 + 54 184
9th Jordan 132 + 12 144
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 21 Nov 2010, 19:46
by dr-baker
James1978 wrote:2004 Button
2005 Ralf Schumacher (car 17!!)
Yes and no. Ralfie just couldn't do it. Thankfully. He lost to the quiet one, the Coke and Magnum one.
2004Code: Select all
position Driver Team car number points total revised total original position
1st Jenson Button BAR 9 85 765 3rd
2nd Fernando Alonso Renault 8 59 472 4th
3rd Takuma Sato BAR 10 34 340 8th
4th Jarno Trulli Renault 7 46 322 6th
5th Kimi Raikkonen McLaren 6 45 270 7th
6th Giancarlo Fisichella Sauber 11 22 242 11th
7th Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 2 114 228 2nd
8th Felipe Massa Sauber 16 12 192 12th
9th Juan-Pablo Montoya Williams 3 58 174 5th
10th Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1 148 148 1st
Code: Select all
11th David Coulthard McLaren 5 24 120 9th=
12th Olivier Panis Toyota 17 6 102 14th=
13th Mark Webber Jaguar 14 7 98 13th
14th Ralf Schumacher Williams 4 24 96 9th=
15th Nick Heidfeld Jordan 18 3 54 16th=
16th Cristiano da Matta Toyota 16 3 48 16th=
17th Christian Klien Jaguar 15 3 45 16th=
18th Timo Glock Jordan 19 2 38 19th
19th Antonio Pizzonia Williams 4 6 24 14th=
20th Zsolt 'HWNSNBM' Baumgartner Minardi 21 1 21 20th
Despite carrying car number 21, the holy and unmentionable one is still last of the points scorers. The last shall be first and the first shall be last, etc. Considering his string of podiums in this year and his car number, the title here was inevitable and pleases the compiler of this championship. Michael Schumacher does not do well again but not as bad as he will next year!
Code: Select all
1st BAR 765 + 340 1105
2nd Renault 472 + 322 794
3rd Sauber 242 + 192 434
4th McLaren 270 + 120 390
5th Ferrari 228 + 148 376
6th Williams 174 + 96 + 24 294
7th Toyota 102 + 48 150
8th Jaguar 98 + 45 143
9th Jordan 54 + 38 92
10th Minardi 21 21
A nice big total for the fag packet on wheels. And Sauber impresses in 3rd.
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 21 Nov 2010, 19:52
by dr-baker
2005Code: Select all
position Driver Team car number points total revised total original position
1st Kimi Raikkonen McLaren 9 112 1008 2nd
2nd Ralf Schumacher Toyota 17 45 765 6th
3rd Jarno Trulli Toyota 16 43 688 7th
4th Fernando Alonso Renault 5 133 665 1st
5th Juan-Pablo Montoya McLaren 10 60 600 4th
6th Giancarlo Fisichella Renault 6 58 348 5th
7th David Coulthard Red Bull 14 24 336 12th
8th Mark Webber Williams 7 36 252 10th
9th Nick Heidfeld Williams 8 28 224 11th
10th Christian Klien Red Bull 15 9 135 14th=
Code: Select all
11th Felipe Massa Sauber 12 11 132 13th
12th Tiago Monteiro Jordan 18 7 126 16th
13th Jenson Button BAR 3 37 111 9th
14th Jacques Villeneuve Sauber 11 9 99 14th=
15th Narain Karthikeyan Jordan 19 5 95 18th
16th Christian Albers Minardi 21 4 84 19th=
17th Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 2 38 76 8th
18th Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1 62 62 3rd
19th= Alex Wurz McLaren 10 6 60 17th
19th= Patrick Friesacher Minardi 20 3 60 21st
Code: Select all
21st Pedro de la Rosa McLaren 10 4 40 19th=
22nd Antonio Pizzonia Williams 8 2 16 22nd
23rd Vintantonio Liuzzi Red Bull 15 1 15 23rd=
24th Takuma Sato BAR 4 1 4 23rd=
The most impressive year yet. The championship-winning driver scores over 1000 points and, thanks to the US GP, each and every team scores over 100 points each, and the team carrying numbers 1 and 2 finish almost dead last, behind even Minardi. YES, MINARDI BEAT FERRARI (and BAR too)!!!!!!!
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1st McLaren 1008 + 600 + 60 + 40 1708
2nd Toyota 765 + 688 1453
3rd Renault 665 + 348 1013
4th Williams 252 + 224 + 16 492
5th Red Bull 336 + 135 + 15 486
6th Sauber 132 + 99 231
7th Jordan 126 + 95 221
8th Minardi 84 + 60 144
9th Ferrari 76 + 62 138
10th BAR 111 + 4 115
This must go down as the most epic alternative championship ever? (Barring any involving HWNSNBM dominating, of course)
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 21 Nov 2010, 20:56
by TomWazzleshaw
Ferrari, Minardi is faster than you. Do you understand?
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 21 Nov 2010, 21:15
by Ferrim
2008: Lewis Hamilton scores like... 98 * 22. Over 2000 points I reckon.
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 21 Nov 2010, 21:20
by dr-baker
Ferrim wrote:2008: Lewis Hamilton scores like... 98 * 22. Over 2000 points I reckon.
It'll be similar in 2009 as well of course, but with Button.
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 21 Nov 2010, 21:52
by James1978
Shame a front-running team couldn't have had high car numbers this year, does 23 times Kobayashi's points total come anywhere near the front-runners? Probably not.
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 24 Nov 2010, 11:48
by dr-baker
Almost seems a shame to continue after that epic 2005 season, helped hugely by the farcical US GP that year. But here we go, nonetheless. (Am attepting to complete this today...)
James1978 wrote:2006 Button
2007 Heidfeld
Yes, and not quite!
(Posting these two years first, because there's a point I want to make about 2007 that is interesting and I don't want to forget making it!)
2006Code: Select all
position Driver Team car number points total revised total original position
1st Jenson Button Honda 12 56 672 6th
2nd Michael Schumacher Ferrari 5 121 605 2nd
3rd Felipe Massa Ferrari 6 80 480 3rd
4th Nick Heidfeld BMW Sauber 16 23 368 9th
5th Rubens Barrichello Honda 11 30 330 7th
6th David Coulthard Red Bull 14 14 196 13th
7th Kimi Raikkonen McLaren 3 65 195 5th
8th Giancarlo Fisichella Renault 2 72 144 4th
9th Ralf Schumacher Toyota 7 20 140 10th
10th Fernando Alonso Renault 1 134 134 1st
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11th Jarno Trulli Toyota 8 15 120 12th
12th Jacques Villeneuve BMW Sauber 17 7 119 14th=
13th Juan Pablo Montoya McLaren 4 26 104 8th
14th Robert Kubica BMW Sauber 17 6 102 16th
15th Pedro de la Rosa McLaren 4 19 76 11th
16th Mark Webber Williams 9 7 63 14th=
17th Nico Rosberg Williams 10 4 40 17th
18th Christian Klien Red Bull 15 2 30 18th
19th Vintantonio Liuzzi Toro Rosso 20 1 20 19th
David Coulthard and Nick Heidfeld both gain well from this as does Jenson of course. And Fernando, as defending champion, naturally loses out.
Code: Select all
1st Ferrari 605 + 480 1085
2nd Honda 672 + 330 1002
3rd BMW Sauber 368 + 119 + 102 589
4th McLaren 195 + 104 + 76 375
5th Renault 134 + 144 278
6th Toyota 140 + 120 260
7th Red Bull 196 + 30 226
8th Williams 63 + 40 103
9th Toro Rosso 20 20
Honda and BMW Sauber have a decent season, and Renault lose out.
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 24 Nov 2010, 11:56
by dr-baker
2007Code: Select all
position Driver Team car number points total revised total original position
1st Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari 6 110 660 1st
2nd Nick Heidfeld BMW Sauber 9 61 549 5th
3rd Felipe Massa Ferrari 5 94 470 4th
4th Robert Kubica BMW Sauber 10 39 390 6th
5th Nico Rosberg Williams 16 20 320 9th
6th Alex Wurz Williams 17 13 221 11th
7th Lewis Hamilton McLaren 2 109 218 2nd=
8th David Coulthard Red Bull 14 14 196 10th
9th Mark Webber Red Bull 15 10 150 12th
10th Heikki Kovalainen Renault 4 30 120 7th
Code: Select all
11th Fernando Alonso McLaren 1 109 109 2nd=
12th Sebastian Vettel 6 105 14th=
(BMW Sauber 10 1 10)
(Toro Rosso 19 5 95)
13th Jarno Trulli Toyota 12 8 96 13th
14th Takuma Sato Super Aguri 22 4 88 17th
15th Giancarlo Fisichella Renault 3 21 63 8th
16th Ralf Schumacher Toyota 11 5 55 16th
17th Vintantonio Liuzzi Toro Rosso 18 3 54 18th
18th Jenson Button Honda 7 6 42 14th=
19th Adrian Sutil Spyker 20 1 20 19th
Sebastian Vettel becomes only the second driver since 1996 to score points for two differnt teams. The interesting point to make from this? Remember this year that Schumacher and Rosberg swapped car numbers before the start of the season? Had Ferrari done this, the top three would then be:
Code: Select all
1st Felipe Massa Ferrari 6 94 564 4th
2nd Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari 5 110 550 1st
3rd Nick Heidfeld BMW Sauber 9 61 549 5th
But it didn't turn out like that. And it's only the third time that the world champion in this alternate reality matches the real champion, following on from 1996 and 1998. And imagine how well Lewis could have done in this, his debut season, if only he had not been teammate to the reigning world champion...
Code: Select all
1st Ferrari 660 + 470 1130
2nd BMW Sauber 549 + 390 + 10 949
3rd Williams 320 + 221 541
4th Red Bull 196 + 150 346
5th McLaren 218 + 109 327
6th Renault 120 + 63 183
7th Toyota 96 + 55 151
8th Toro Rosso 95 + 54 149
9th Super Aguri 88 88
10th Honda 42 42
11th Spyker 20 20
Inevitable? I think so. Well, apart from the brilliance of Super Aguri beating Honda by more than a factor of 2!
Re: Car numbers alternative championship
Posted: 24 Nov 2010, 13:25
by dr-baker
And now for the most recent 3 years!
James1978 wrote:Predictions for champions from 1998 to date:
1998 Hakkinen
1999 Frentzen
2000 Villeneuve (car 22 remember)
2001 Heidfeld maybe?
2002 Button?
2003 Alonso?
2004 Button
2005 Ralf Schumacher (car 17!!)
2006 Button
2007 Heidfeld
2008 Hamilton
2009 Button
2010 Alonso (his total will be over 2000 as long as he comes 8th or better today......)
Button and Heidfeld seem to do very well out of this!
Last three correct. But the facinating thing, considering this year's new points system, is that Fernando wins 2010 with fewer points than Lewis or Jenson did in 2008/9 (thanks to their no. 22!)! And Heidfeld has not won any as it turns out... 8 out of 13 isn't bad though!
Anyway,:
2008Code: Select all
position Driver Team car number points total revised total original position
1st Lewis Hamilton McLaren 22 98 2156 1st
2nd Heikki Kovalainen McLaren 23 53 1219 7th
3rd Sebastian Vettel Toro Rosso 15 35 525 8th
4th Jarno Trulli Toyota 11 31 341 9th
5th Fernando Alonso Renault 5 61 305 5th
6th= Robert Kubica BMW Sauber 4 75 300 3rd=
6th= Timo Glock Toyota 12 25 300 10th
8th Mark Webber Red Bull 10 21 210 11th
9th Felipe Massa Ferrari 2 97 194 2nd
10th Rubens Barrichello Honda 17 11 187 14th
Code: Select all
11th Nick Heidfeld BMW Sauber 3 60 180 6th
12th Nico Rosberg Williams 7 17 119 13th
13th Nelson Piquet Renault 6 19 114 12th
14th Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari 1 75 75 3rd=
15th= Kazuki Nakajima Williams 8 9 72 15th
15th= David Coulthard Red Bull 9 8 72 16th
17th Sebastien Boudais Toro Rosso 14 4 56 17th
18th Jenson Button Honda 16 3 48 18th
Kovalainen, Vettel and Trulli really do gain a lot from this system! And poor old Kimi - champion to 14th! And McLaren really dominated this year, thanks to the spy scandal and subsequant DSQ and large car numbers - it would have been a shock if they
could not dominate.
Code: Select all
1st McLaren 2156 + 1219 3375
2nd Toyota 341 + 300 641
3rd Toro Rosso 525 + 56 581
4th BMW Sauber 300 + 180 480
5th Renault 305 + 114 419
6th Red Bull 210 + 72 282
7th Ferrari 194 + 75 269
8th Honda 187 + 48 235
9th Williams 119 + 72 191
Mike Couglan did McLaren a favour here, getting them involved in the spy scandal. I'm sure this must be the most dominant performance to date...
Toro Rosso could have got 2nd in the championship if only Bourdais had done better... The Monza startline problem, given a different set of circumstances, may have swayed this?