Haven't done any yet, but what I was thinking of doing for an alternative championship would be to only have one representative from every team per year, and in all cases it would be the "number 2" driver (particularly with lots of discussion going around about team orders, only having one driver per team solves that completely!). Sounds quite easy on paper, but what I'm thinking is in some cases how do you define who the number 2 was?
For instance, I'm thinking of Red Bull and McLaren this year, then also other cases like Prost and Senna at McLaren. Plus it'll be really difficult to do the old days when drivers shared cars, and lots of teams ran more than two cars in the 60s and 70s too, so probably could only do it from the 80s onwards.
But I'm wondering if anyone would want to see the results of this?
The Number 2s Alternative championship
The Number 2s Alternative championship
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". 
(Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)
Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
Why don't you define the number 2 driver as whoever finished behind their teammate in the championship standings (i.e. scored fewer points)? (I think officially that makes Alonso no. 2 to Hamilton in 2007 despite being equal in points?)
watka wrote:I find it amusing that whilst you're one of the more openly Christian guys here, you are still first and foremost associated with an eye for the ladies!
MCard LOLAdinizintheoven wrote:GOOD CHRISTIANS do not go to jail. EVERYONE ON FORMULA ONE REJECTS should be in jail.
Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
dr-baker wrote:Why don't you define the number 2 driver as whoever finished behind their teammate in the championship standings (i.e. scored fewer points)? (I think officially that makes Alonso no. 2 to Hamilton in 2007 despite being equal in points?)
I was thinking along those lines, if one driver on a team is a former champion at the start of the year, the number 2 would automatically be the one who isn't . (i.e. Senna would be for 1988, Hamilton for 2007, Massa for 2008 even though they all out-performed their teammates). Sounds simple until I think of Hill/Frentzen in 1999, and Villeneuve/Button in 2003, or even Schumacher/Rosberg this year - heck it's complicated!!
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)-
Salamander
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Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
James1978 wrote:dr-baker wrote:Why don't you define the number 2 driver as whoever finished behind their teammate in the championship standings (i.e. scored fewer points)? (I think officially that makes Alonso no. 2 to Hamilton in 2007 despite being equal in points?)
I was thinking along those lines, if one driver on a team is a former champion at the start of the year, the number 2 would automatically be the one who isn't . (i.e. Senna would be for 1988, Hamilton for 2007, Massa for 2008 even though they all out-performed their teammates). Sounds simple until I think of Hill/Frentzen in 1999, and Villeneuve/Button in 2003, or even Schumacher/Rosberg this year - heck it's complicated!!
You could just work out a percentage the former champion has to stay within in order to qualify for the championship - say, 80% or so of their teammate's points?
Everything's great.Sebastian Vettel wrote:If I was good at losing I wouldn't be in Formula 1.
I'm not surprised about anything.
Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
Good idea, I like that!
What I'll probably do is do complete one year, then before I start the next one, have a vote/opinion on any teams I can't decide on for the following year, and go from there.
I think for instance, this year the line-up would have to be:
Hamilton (as long as he doesn't win it for real, I'm extremely reluctant to call Button as a defending champ a #2)
Schumacher (well he was away for 3 years)
Webber (for no reason other than he said so himself
)
Massa
Hulkenberg
Petrov
Liuzzi
Algersuari (little to choose between him and Buemi expect Buemi scored points last year and Alguersuari didn't)
De La Rosa/Heidfeld
Trulli
Di Grassi
No idea at all about HRT.
What I'll probably do is do complete one year, then before I start the next one, have a vote/opinion on any teams I can't decide on for the following year, and go from there.
I think for instance, this year the line-up would have to be:
Hamilton (as long as he doesn't win it for real, I'm extremely reluctant to call Button as a defending champ a #2)
Schumacher (well he was away for 3 years)
Webber (for no reason other than he said so himself
)Massa
Hulkenberg
Petrov
Liuzzi
Algersuari (little to choose between him and Buemi expect Buemi scored points last year and Alguersuari didn't)
De La Rosa/Heidfeld
Trulli
Di Grassi
No idea at all about HRT.
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
James1978 wrote:No idea at all about HRT.
Colin Kolles, I think most people on here would agree, is most definately a number two.
watka wrote:I find it amusing that whilst you're one of the more openly Christian guys here, you are still first and foremost associated with an eye for the ladies!
MCard LOLAdinizintheoven wrote:GOOD CHRISTIANS do not go to jail. EVERYONE ON FORMULA ONE REJECTS should be in jail.
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QuickYoda41
- Posts: 1087
- Joined: 16 Sep 2010, 20:22
Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
James1978 wrote:dr-baker wrote:Why don't you define the number 2 driver as whoever finished behind their teammate in the championship standings (i.e. scored fewer points)? (I think officially that makes Alonso no. 2 to Hamilton in 2007 despite being equal in points?)
I was thinking along those lines, if one driver on a team is a former champion at the start of the year, the number 2 would automatically be the one who isn't . (i.e. Senna would be for 1988, Hamilton for 2007, Massa for 2008 even though they all out-performed their teammates). Sounds simple until I think of Hill/Frentzen in 1999, and Villeneuve/Button in 2003, or even Schumacher/Rosberg this year - heck it's complicated!!
Maybe you could see the previous year's results and not counting "ancient" titles. That still leaves Frentzen in a nr. 2 position, but I guess at the beginning of the season he was meant to be.
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P_Friesacher
- Posts: 1005
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Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
dr-baker wrote:Colin Kolles, I think most people on here would agree, is most definately a number two.
Except, of course, on the list of people most desperately wanted to go home.
Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
OK, I'll probably start this later from 1981 onwards (may do earlier at another stage if people are interested, I had a look at 1980 and there's too many third cars, privateers etc for me to decide on what is clear).
I've taken the decision to make it that all real champions are excluded for that year, to make the championship as "alternative" as possible so their teammate is automatically the number 2. (So at McLaren for the Senna/Prost years it will be Prost I include in 1988 and Senna in 1989).
For 1981, I'd like nominations on who to include as the number 2 from the following teams:
Osella and Toleman.
Osella ran loads of different drivers, and Toleman barely qualified for a race!
I've decided on Reutemann for Williams, as only 3 points separated him and Jones at the end of the year and he was supposed to let Jones past in Brazil as the perceived number 2 but didn't - ha, imagine Massa doing that in Germany this year).
I've taken the decision to make it that all real champions are excluded for that year, to make the championship as "alternative" as possible so their teammate is automatically the number 2. (So at McLaren for the Senna/Prost years it will be Prost I include in 1988 and Senna in 1989).
For 1981, I'd like nominations on who to include as the number 2 from the following teams:
Osella and Toleman.
Osella ran loads of different drivers, and Toleman barely qualified for a race!
I've decided on Reutemann for Williams, as only 3 points separated him and Jones at the end of the year and he was supposed to let Jones past in Brazil as the perceived number 2 but didn't - ha, imagine Massa doing that in Germany this year).
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)
Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
I would go for whoever finished behind at the season's ending in all cases.
Go home, Bernie Ecclestone!
"There will be no other victory this year, I can tell you, more welcomed than this one" Bob Varsha, 1995 Canadian GP
F1 Rejects Forums – going off-topic since 2009!
"There will be no other victory this year, I can tell you, more welcomed than this one" Bob Varsha, 1995 Canadian GP
F1 Rejects Forums – going off-topic since 2009!
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QuickYoda41
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Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
For Toleman it should be Warwick, because he was a rookie in that year and Henton wasn't.
Osella is more difficult. Well, as Gabbiani took part in all the races, I'd go with the other driver from each race.
Osella is more difficult. Well, as Gabbiani took part in all the races, I'd go with the other driver from each race.
Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
OK, the rules I've decided on are (having taken on comments here):
I will ALWAYS disqualify a world champion in their successful year(s).
The vast majority of the time, I will let the number 2 be the driver who scored less points. I will make an exception where it's very close between a champion/non-champion (I will use 80% as a guideline as suggested). But I agree it's probably right than Raikkonen was the number 2 Ferrari driver in 2008.
For instance, it was really close between Jones and Reutemann in 1981, but since they were only 3 points apart I'll choose the non-champ Reutemann. Same goes for Patrese being 1 point ahead of Piquet in 1982 (that had a lot to do with better reliability for Patrese as he had the Cosworth car for much of the season). Plus Piquet would have been infront but for his Brazil DQ!
Other exceptions will be if one driver is a qualified reject, and the other not, I will make the reject the number 2 (I'm thinking Badoer was generally quicker than Alboreto in '93 as an example). I might make other exceptions where it's close and the driver who's generally faster suffers from poor reliability (I'm thinking of Trulli and Ralf in '05 as an example of that).
If both drivers are qualified rejects, then I'll choose the one who has the bigger following on here (I want HWNSNBM for Minardi in 2004 rather than Bruni for example).
I will include one car in full, so one or more drivers may be the number 2 through a year (i.e. Piquet Jr and Grosjean at Renault in '09).
Also if a team only runs one car, I will include it anyway (it's usually a tail-end team anyway), and if they run a second car for a few races ineligible for points like Larrousse in 1987, I'll just include the one who is eligible.
I think that's everything covered!
OK, for 1981, my line up will be:
Williams: Reutemann
Tyrrell: Zunino/Alboreto
Brabham: Rebaque
McLaren: De Cesaris
ATS: Borgudd (they ran only him for most of the year anyway)
Lotus: Mansell
Ensign only ran one car
Renault: Arnoux
March: Daly (as Salazar only did a few races)
Fittipaldi: Serra
Alfa Romeo: Giacomelli
Ligier: Jarier/Jabouille/Tambay
Ferrari: Pironi
Arrows: Stohr/Jacques Villenueve Senior
Osella: everyone except Gabbiani
Toleman: Warwick.
Should make a start on it tomorrow!
I will ALWAYS disqualify a world champion in their successful year(s).
The vast majority of the time, I will let the number 2 be the driver who scored less points. I will make an exception where it's very close between a champion/non-champion (I will use 80% as a guideline as suggested). But I agree it's probably right than Raikkonen was the number 2 Ferrari driver in 2008.
For instance, it was really close between Jones and Reutemann in 1981, but since they were only 3 points apart I'll choose the non-champ Reutemann. Same goes for Patrese being 1 point ahead of Piquet in 1982 (that had a lot to do with better reliability for Patrese as he had the Cosworth car for much of the season). Plus Piquet would have been infront but for his Brazil DQ!
Other exceptions will be if one driver is a qualified reject, and the other not, I will make the reject the number 2 (I'm thinking Badoer was generally quicker than Alboreto in '93 as an example). I might make other exceptions where it's close and the driver who's generally faster suffers from poor reliability (I'm thinking of Trulli and Ralf in '05 as an example of that).
If both drivers are qualified rejects, then I'll choose the one who has the bigger following on here (I want HWNSNBM for Minardi in 2004 rather than Bruni for example).
I will include one car in full, so one or more drivers may be the number 2 through a year (i.e. Piquet Jr and Grosjean at Renault in '09).
Also if a team only runs one car, I will include it anyway (it's usually a tail-end team anyway), and if they run a second car for a few races ineligible for points like Larrousse in 1987, I'll just include the one who is eligible.
I think that's everything covered!
OK, for 1981, my line up will be:
Williams: Reutemann
Tyrrell: Zunino/Alboreto
Brabham: Rebaque
McLaren: De Cesaris
ATS: Borgudd (they ran only him for most of the year anyway)
Lotus: Mansell
Ensign only ran one car
Renault: Arnoux
March: Daly (as Salazar only did a few races)
Fittipaldi: Serra
Alfa Romeo: Giacomelli
Ligier: Jarier/Jabouille/Tambay
Ferrari: Pironi
Arrows: Stohr/Jacques Villenueve Senior
Osella: everyone except Gabbiani
Toleman: Warwick.
Should make a start on it tomorrow!
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)
Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
dr-baker wrote:James1978 wrote:No idea at all about HRT.
Colin Kolles, I think most people on here would agree, is most definately a number two.
#0
(and i don't mean like damon hill's # 0 of course)
I don't know what i want and i want it now!
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madmark1974
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Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
This wrote:dr-baker wrote:James1978 wrote:No idea at all about HRT.
Colin Kolles, I think most people on here would agree, is most definately a number two.
#0
(and i don't mean like damon hill's # 0 of course)
P_Friesacher wrote:dr-baker wrote:Colin Kolles, I think most people on here would agree, is most definately a number two.
Except, of course, on the list of people most desperately wanted to go home.
Just to explain it for you two guys, a 'number two' is Enlgish slang for something toilet-related ... I'll let you look into it more if you really want to know!
Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
Ha ha, good one.
Anyway here's my first attempt:
1981
Carlos Reutemann 87 (8 wins)
Rene Arnoux 37 (2 wins)
Didier Pironi 35 (1 win)
Hector Rebaque 33 (2 wins)
Bruno Giacomelli 31(2 wins)
Nigel Mansell 24 (3 2nd)
Marc Surer 24 (2 2nd) (15 for Ensign, 9 for Theodore - both teams only have one car anyway!)
Jean-Pierre Jarier 16 (1 2nd) (4 for Ligier, the rest including the 2nd place for Osella!!!)
Andrea De Cesaris 16 (2 3rd)
Patrick Tambay 14 (1 2nd)
Siegfried Stohr 12 (3 3rd)
Derek Daly 10 (1 2nd)
Eliseo Salazar 6 (1 2nd)
Chico Serra 6 (1 3rd)
Michele Alboreto 6 (2 5th)
Slim Borgudd 5 (1 3rd)
Ricardo Zunino 1 (1 6th)
Jan Lammers 1 (1 6th)
Er......maybe I should have had Jones the Williams representative instead......
For 1982 I think Watson has enough points lead over Lauda to make Lauda the McLaren representative, and Ferrari was really complicated due to only running one car for a few races after Villeneuve and Pironi had their accidents - but the #27 combo of Villeneuve/Tambay scores less points than the #28 of Pironi and Andretti so it's the ~27 drivers I include in this!
Anyway here's my first attempt:
1981
Carlos Reutemann 87 (8 wins)
Rene Arnoux 37 (2 wins)
Didier Pironi 35 (1 win)
Hector Rebaque 33 (2 wins)
Bruno Giacomelli 31(2 wins)
Nigel Mansell 24 (3 2nd)
Marc Surer 24 (2 2nd) (15 for Ensign, 9 for Theodore - both teams only have one car anyway!)
Jean-Pierre Jarier 16 (1 2nd) (4 for Ligier, the rest including the 2nd place for Osella!!!)
Andrea De Cesaris 16 (2 3rd)
Patrick Tambay 14 (1 2nd)
Siegfried Stohr 12 (3 3rd)
Derek Daly 10 (1 2nd)
Eliseo Salazar 6 (1 2nd)
Chico Serra 6 (1 3rd)
Michele Alboreto 6 (2 5th)
Slim Borgudd 5 (1 3rd)
Ricardo Zunino 1 (1 6th)
Jan Lammers 1 (1 6th)
Er......maybe I should have had Jones the Williams representative instead......
For 1982 I think Watson has enough points lead over Lauda to make Lauda the McLaren representative, and Ferrari was really complicated due to only running one car for a few races after Villeneuve and Pironi had their accidents - but the #27 combo of Villeneuve/Tambay scores less points than the #28 of Pironi and Andretti so it's the ~27 drivers I include in this!
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)-
QuickYoda41
- Posts: 1087
- Joined: 16 Sep 2010, 20:22
Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
I guess Jones would have won it then just as easily. At least this way we have a non-champion winner in this alternative reality.
Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
1982
Niki Lauda 47 (4 wins)
Derek Daly 46 (2 wins - includes 1 point for Theodore in South Africa)
Patrick Tambay 36 (1 win)
Rene Arnoux 33 (2 wins)
Riccardo Patrese 30 (2 wins)
Nigel Mansell 28 (1 win)
Brian Henton 21 (1 2nd)
Jacques Laffite 19 (1 win)
Mauro Baldi 18 (2 3rd, 3 4th)
Bruno Giacomelli 18 (2 3rd, 1 4th)
Chico Serra 15 (1 win) (!!!!)
Raul Boesel 11 (1 2nd)
Eliseo Salazar 11 (1 3rd)
Jean-Pierre Jarier 10 (1 2nd)
Carlos Reutemann 9 (1 win)
Gilles Villeneuve 9 (1 win)
Slim Borgudd 8 (1 2nd)
Roberto Guerrero 2 (1 5th)
Very disjointed season. Seems silly for Lauda to win this, but Watson was McLaren's main contender that year. Interestinlgy, Reutemann's win but Daly's other 45 points actually beat Lauda, and therefore Williams and not McLaren are constructors champions. Tambay and Villeneuve's points for Ferrari fall just short of Lauda.
Niki Lauda 47 (4 wins)
Derek Daly 46 (2 wins - includes 1 point for Theodore in South Africa)
Patrick Tambay 36 (1 win)
Rene Arnoux 33 (2 wins)
Riccardo Patrese 30 (2 wins)
Nigel Mansell 28 (1 win)
Brian Henton 21 (1 2nd)
Jacques Laffite 19 (1 win)
Mauro Baldi 18 (2 3rd, 3 4th)
Bruno Giacomelli 18 (2 3rd, 1 4th)
Chico Serra 15 (1 win) (!!!!)
Raul Boesel 11 (1 2nd)
Eliseo Salazar 11 (1 3rd)
Jean-Pierre Jarier 10 (1 2nd)
Carlos Reutemann 9 (1 win)
Gilles Villeneuve 9 (1 win)
Slim Borgudd 8 (1 2nd)
Roberto Guerrero 2 (1 5th)
Very disjointed season. Seems silly for Lauda to win this, but Watson was McLaren's main contender that year. Interestinlgy, Reutemann's win but Daly's other 45 points actually beat Lauda, and therefore Williams and not McLaren are constructors champions. Tambay and Villeneuve's points for Ferrari fall just short of Lauda.
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
BTW, which Osella driver (Corrado Fabi or Ghinzani) should I choose for 1983, since they're both qualified rejects?
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)-
P_Friesacher
- Posts: 1005
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Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
madmark1974 wrote:I'll let you look into it more if you really want to know!
Urban dictionary says: Thanks, but definitely no.
I say: Sorry!
Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
1983
Patrick Tambay 67 (5 wins)
Eddie Cheever 52 (4 wins)
Jacques Laffite 44 (1 win)
Niki Lauda 32 (2 wins)
Riccardo Patrese 29 (2 wins)
Bruno Giacomelli 22 (1 win)
Thierry Boutsen 22 (1 2nd)
Danny Sullivan 21 (1 2nd)
Mauro Baldi 20 (1 2nd)
Raul Boesel 12 (1 3rd)
Chico Serra 10 (1 3rd)
Manfred Winkelhock 8 (1 3rd)
Stefan Johansson 7 (1 3rd)
Elio De Angelis 6 (1 3rd)
Piercarlo Ghinzani 4 (1 3rd)
Roberto Guerrero 4 (1 5th)
Eliseo salazar 1 (1 6th)
Kenny Acheson 1 (1 6th)
Serra and Boutsen combined for the 2nd Arrows give them the same total as Lauda!
And for 1984 my chosen line-up will be:
Brabham: Fabis and Winkelhock
No Tyrrells as they were DQ'd
Williams: Laffite
McLaren: Prost (one of only two years he'll be eligible for I think)
RAM: Alliot
Lotus: Mansell
ATS: Winkelhock and Berger, but Winkelohck for the races they had 2 cars as Berger was ineligible for points
Renault: Tambay
Arrows: Surer
Toleman: Anyone who wasn't Senna!
Spirit: only one car shared by Baldi/Rothengatter
Alfa: Cheever
Osella: Ghinzani, as Gartner was ineligible for points
Ligier: Hesnault
Ferrari: Arnoux
Patrick Tambay 67 (5 wins)
Eddie Cheever 52 (4 wins)
Jacques Laffite 44 (1 win)
Niki Lauda 32 (2 wins)
Riccardo Patrese 29 (2 wins)
Bruno Giacomelli 22 (1 win)
Thierry Boutsen 22 (1 2nd)
Danny Sullivan 21 (1 2nd)
Mauro Baldi 20 (1 2nd)
Raul Boesel 12 (1 3rd)
Chico Serra 10 (1 3rd)
Manfred Winkelhock 8 (1 3rd)
Stefan Johansson 7 (1 3rd)
Elio De Angelis 6 (1 3rd)
Piercarlo Ghinzani 4 (1 3rd)
Roberto Guerrero 4 (1 5th)
Eliseo salazar 1 (1 6th)
Kenny Acheson 1 (1 6th)
Serra and Boutsen combined for the 2nd Arrows give them the same total as Lauda!
And for 1984 my chosen line-up will be:
Brabham: Fabis and Winkelhock
No Tyrrells as they were DQ'd
Williams: Laffite
McLaren: Prost (one of only two years he'll be eligible for I think)
RAM: Alliot
Lotus: Mansell
ATS: Winkelhock and Berger, but Winkelohck for the races they had 2 cars as Berger was ineligible for points
Renault: Tambay
Arrows: Surer
Toleman: Anyone who wasn't Senna!
Spirit: only one car shared by Baldi/Rothengatter
Alfa: Cheever
Osella: Ghinzani, as Gartner was ineligible for points
Ligier: Hesnault
Ferrari: Arnoux
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
1984
Alain Prost 85.5 (9 wins*)
Rene Arnoux 63 (3 wins)
Patrick Tambay 38 (1 win)
Nigel Mansell 25 (3 2nd)
Teo Fabi 22 (2 wins)
Marc Surer 20 (1 2nd)
Piercarlo Ghinzani 16 (1 2nd)
Eddie Cheever 14 (1 2nd)
Jacques Laffite 13.5 (1 2nd)
Mauro Baldi 13 (1 2nd)
Francois Hesnault 13 (3 4th)
Stefan Johansson 11 (1 win)
Manfred Winkelhock 7 (2 4th)
Huub Rothengatter 5 (1 3rd)
Corrado Fabi 3 (1 5th)
Phillipe Alliot 3 (1 5th)
Johnny Cecotto 2 (1 5th)
Gerhard Berger 1 (1 6th)
This was actaully a lot closer than I thought it would be. Prost didn't have it sealed until Nurburgring. Half points for Monaco of course.
OK, my line up for 1985 will be:
McLaren: Lauda/Watson
Tyrrell: Brundle
Williams: Mansell (He was only up with Rosberg towards end of season to put it fair)
Brabham: Hesnault/Surer
RAM: Alliot
Lotus: De Angelis
Renault: Warwick
Arrows: Berger
Toleman: Ghinzani (Fabi didn't do that many races on his own before he joined)
Alfa Romeo: Cheever
Osella: one car for Ghinzani/Rothengatter
Ligier: De Cesaris/Streiff
Ferrari: Arnoux/Johansson
Zakspeed: one car so both Palmer and Danner
Lola: only one car for Jones./
Alain Prost 85.5 (9 wins*)
Rene Arnoux 63 (3 wins)
Patrick Tambay 38 (1 win)
Nigel Mansell 25 (3 2nd)
Teo Fabi 22 (2 wins)
Marc Surer 20 (1 2nd)
Piercarlo Ghinzani 16 (1 2nd)
Eddie Cheever 14 (1 2nd)
Jacques Laffite 13.5 (1 2nd)
Mauro Baldi 13 (1 2nd)
Francois Hesnault 13 (3 4th)
Stefan Johansson 11 (1 win)
Manfred Winkelhock 7 (2 4th)
Huub Rothengatter 5 (1 3rd)
Corrado Fabi 3 (1 5th)
Phillipe Alliot 3 (1 5th)
Johnny Cecotto 2 (1 5th)
Gerhard Berger 1 (1 6th)
This was actaully a lot closer than I thought it would be. Prost didn't have it sealed until Nurburgring. Half points for Monaco of course.
OK, my line up for 1985 will be:
McLaren: Lauda/Watson
Tyrrell: Brundle
Williams: Mansell (He was only up with Rosberg towards end of season to put it fair)
Brabham: Hesnault/Surer
RAM: Alliot
Lotus: De Angelis
Renault: Warwick
Arrows: Berger
Toleman: Ghinzani (Fabi didn't do that many races on his own before he joined)
Alfa Romeo: Cheever
Osella: one car for Ghinzani/Rothengatter
Ligier: De Cesaris/Streiff
Ferrari: Arnoux/Johansson
Zakspeed: one car so both Palmer and Danner
Lola: only one car for Jones./
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
1985
Elio De Angelis 76 (4 wins)
Stefan Johansson 63 (4 wins)
Nigel Mansell 55 (3 wins)
Derek Warwick 30 (1 win, 1 2nd, 3 3rd)
Marc Surer 30 (1 win, 1 2nd, 2 3rd)
Gerhard Berger 26 (4 3rd)
Martin Brundle 26 (2 3rd)
Niki Lauda 24 (2 wins)
Phillipe Streiff 16 (1 win)
Andrea De Cesaris 9 (1 2nd)
Rene Arnoux 6 (1 2nd)
Huub Rothengatter 6 (2 4ths)
Eddie Cheever 6 (1 4th)
John Watson 4 (1 3rd)
Piercarlo Ghinzani 4 (1 5th)
Pierluigi Martini 4 (1 5th)
Philippe Alliot 3 (1 4th)
Jonathan Palmer 1 (1 6th)
Tp be honest before I did this I thought Johansson would win rather than De Angelis. Mansell's late-season charge came too late. De Angelis' 4 wins were the first four races but he had lots of podiums after that. Lauda really suffered with reliability, he was behind Brundle who didn't even have a turbo for half the year!
My chosen line-up for 1986 will be:
McLaren: Rosberg
Tyrrell: Streiff
Williams: Piquet (decided to give him and Mansell one season each in the years they were together, and I have to disqualify him in 1987 as he was real champion)
Brabham: De Angelis/Warwick
Lotus: Dumfries (really? )
Zakspeed: Rothengatter
Lola: Tambay/Cheever
Arrows: Boutsen (becuase Danner scored their only point that year)
Benetton: Fabi
Osella: Danner/Berg
Minardi: Nannini
Ligier: Arnoux (he only tied on points with Laffite who didn't complete the year)
Ferrari: Alboreto
Elio De Angelis 76 (4 wins)
Stefan Johansson 63 (4 wins)
Nigel Mansell 55 (3 wins)
Derek Warwick 30 (1 win, 1 2nd, 3 3rd)
Marc Surer 30 (1 win, 1 2nd, 2 3rd)
Gerhard Berger 26 (4 3rd)
Martin Brundle 26 (2 3rd)
Niki Lauda 24 (2 wins)
Phillipe Streiff 16 (1 win)
Andrea De Cesaris 9 (1 2nd)
Rene Arnoux 6 (1 2nd)
Huub Rothengatter 6 (2 4ths)
Eddie Cheever 6 (1 4th)
John Watson 4 (1 3rd)
Piercarlo Ghinzani 4 (1 5th)
Pierluigi Martini 4 (1 5th)
Philippe Alliot 3 (1 4th)
Jonathan Palmer 1 (1 6th)
Tp be honest before I did this I thought Johansson would win rather than De Angelis. Mansell's late-season charge came too late. De Angelis' 4 wins were the first four races but he had lots of podiums after that. Lauda really suffered with reliability, he was behind Brundle who didn't even have a turbo for half the year!
My chosen line-up for 1986 will be:
McLaren: Rosberg
Tyrrell: Streiff
Williams: Piquet (decided to give him and Mansell one season each in the years they were together, and I have to disqualify him in 1987 as he was real champion)
Brabham: De Angelis/Warwick
Lotus: Dumfries (really?
)Zakspeed: Rothengatter
Lola: Tambay/Cheever
Arrows: Boutsen (becuase Danner scored their only point that year)
Benetton: Fabi
Osella: Danner/Berg
Minardi: Nannini
Ligier: Arnoux (he only tied on points with Laffite who didn't complete the year)
Ferrari: Alboreto
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
1986
Nelson Piquet 99 (103) (11 wins - a perfect score with only 11 best results counting, he dropped a 3rd in Monaco)
Keke Rosberg 49 (2 wins)
Rene Arnoux 44 (4 2nd)
Michele Alboreto 42 (3 wins)
Philippe Streiff 32 (1 2nd)
Johnny Dumfries 23 (2 2nd)
Thierry Boutsen 22 (1 2nd)
Teo Fabi 18 (2 2nd)
Patrick Tambay 15 (1 2nd)
Derek Warwick 10 (2 4th)
Huub Rothengatter 5 (1 3rd)
Alessandro Nannini 4 (1 3rd)
Elio De Angelis 3 (1 4th)
Allen Berg 3 (1 5th)
I like the podium for Rothengatter, it was in Austria.
Line-up for 1987:
McLaren: Johansson
Tyrrell: Streiff
Williams: Mansell/Patrese in Australia
Brabham: De Cesaris
Zakspeed: Danner (simply becuase Brundle scored their only points)
Lotus: Nakajima
AGS: only one car
March: same
Arrows: Warwick
Benetton: Fabi
Osella: Caffi (he was the only car for most of the year)
Minardi: Campos
Ligier: Ghinzani
Ferrari: Alboreto
Lola: Alliot (again, his was the only car for most of the year)
Coloni: only one car for 2 races.
Nelson Piquet 99 (103) (11 wins - a perfect score with only 11 best results counting, he dropped a 3rd in Monaco)
Keke Rosberg 49 (2 wins)
Rene Arnoux 44 (4 2nd)
Michele Alboreto 42 (3 wins)
Philippe Streiff 32 (1 2nd)
Johnny Dumfries 23 (2 2nd)
Thierry Boutsen 22 (1 2nd)
Teo Fabi 18 (2 2nd)
Patrick Tambay 15 (1 2nd)
Derek Warwick 10 (2 4th)
Huub Rothengatter 5 (1 3rd)
Alessandro Nannini 4 (1 3rd)
Elio De Angelis 3 (1 4th)
Allen Berg 3 (1 5th)
I like the podium for Rothengatter, it was in Austria.
Line-up for 1987:
McLaren: Johansson
Tyrrell: Streiff
Williams: Mansell/Patrese in Australia
Brabham: De Cesaris
Zakspeed: Danner (simply becuase Brundle scored their only points)
Lotus: Nakajima
AGS: only one car
March: same
Arrows: Warwick
Benetton: Fabi
Osella: Caffi (he was the only car for most of the year)
Minardi: Campos
Ligier: Ghinzani
Ferrari: Alboreto
Lola: Alliot (again, his was the only car for most of the year)
Coloni: only one car for 2 races.
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
1987
Nigel Mansell 79 (8 wins)
Stefan Johansson 71 (4 wins)
Teo Fabi 38 (1 win)
Michele Alboreto 33 (2 wins)
Satoru Nakajima 31 (1 2nd)
Philippe Streiff 29 (2 2nd)
Derek Warwick 18 (1 win)
Christian Danner 16 (2 3rd)
Piercarlo Ghinzani 15 (4 4th)
Ivan Capelli 14 (1 2nd)
Philippe Alliot 14 (3 3rd)
Pascal Fabre 10 (1 4th) (!!!!!)
Andrea DE Cesaris 9 (1 2nd)
Roberto Moreno 6 (1 2nd)
Riccardo Patrese 2 (1 5th) - in Australia as Mansell's replacement, as I chose De Cesaris for Brabham due to his lask of finishes!
That was much closer than I thought it would be, in actual fact with Mansell's absence, if Johansson had won in Australia, he'd have been the champion, but he retired.
I'll choose by 1988 line up later, the definite one is Prost for McLaren!
Nigel Mansell 79 (8 wins)
Stefan Johansson 71 (4 wins)
Teo Fabi 38 (1 win)
Michele Alboreto 33 (2 wins)
Satoru Nakajima 31 (1 2nd)
Philippe Streiff 29 (2 2nd)
Derek Warwick 18 (1 win)
Christian Danner 16 (2 3rd)
Piercarlo Ghinzani 15 (4 4th)
Ivan Capelli 14 (1 2nd)
Philippe Alliot 14 (3 3rd)
Pascal Fabre 10 (1 4th) (!!!!!)
Andrea DE Cesaris 9 (1 2nd)
Roberto Moreno 6 (1 2nd)
Riccardo Patrese 2 (1 5th) - in Australia as Mansell's replacement, as I chose De Cesaris for Brabham due to his lask of finishes!
That was much closer than I thought it would be, in actual fact with Mansell's absence, if Johansson had won in Australia, he'd have been the champion, but he retired.
I'll choose by 1988 line up later, the definite one is Prost for McLaren!
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
Line-up for 1988:
Lotus: Nakajima
Tyrrell: Bailey
Williams: Patrese
Zakspeed: Ghinzani (him and Schneider both rejects, but Schneider recorded a higher finish)
McLaren: Prost
AGS: Streiff (only one car)
March: Gugelmin
Arrows: Cheever
Benetton: Nannini
Osella: Larini (one car)
Rial: De Cesaris (one car)
Minardi: Perez-Sala
Ligier: Arnoux (Johansson recorded a high finish than him)
Ferrari: Alboreto
Lola: Dalmas (he's a qualified reject while Alliot escaped)
Coloni: Tarquini (one car)
EuroBrun: Larrauri (qualified reject)
Dallara: Caffi (one car)
Lotus: Nakajima
Tyrrell: Bailey
Williams: Patrese
Zakspeed: Ghinzani (him and Schneider both rejects, but Schneider recorded a higher finish)
McLaren: Prost
AGS: Streiff (only one car)
March: Gugelmin
Arrows: Cheever
Benetton: Nannini
Osella: Larini (one car)
Rial: De Cesaris (one car)
Minardi: Perez-Sala
Ligier: Arnoux (Johansson recorded a high finish than him)
Ferrari: Alboreto
Lola: Dalmas (he's a qualified reject while Alliot escaped)
Coloni: Tarquini (one car)
EuroBrun: Larrauri (qualified reject)
Dallara: Caffi (one car)
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
1988
Alain Prost 99 (126) (14 wins but had to drop three of them!!!!)
Michele Alboreto 45 (1 win, 6 2nd)
Alessandro Nannini 36 (1 win, 3 2nd)
Eddie Cheever 29 (2 2nd)
Riccardo Patrese 29 (1 2nd)
Mauricio Gugelmin 25 (2 2nd)
Satoru Nakajima 24 (1 3rd, 6 4th)
Andrea De Cesaris 16 (1 2nd, 2 3rd)
Alex Caffi 14 (2 3rd)
Yannick Dalmas 12 (1 3rd)
Philippe Streiff 12 (2 4th)
Luis Perez-Sala 8 (1 4th)
Gabriele Tarquini 6 (1 2nd)
Julian Bailey 3 (1 5th)
Nicola Larini 2 (1 5th)
Piercarlo Ghinzani 1
Rene Arnoux 1
That was so dominant it was ridiculous. Prost only failed to win races he retired from. Even if you had Senna in instead it made very little difference. My favourite thing there are the podiums for Dalmas and Tarquini!
1989 could be complicated due to loads of driver changes, and lots of rejects but this is what I'll go with:
McLaren: Senna (the only time he'll be in this I reckon)
Tyrrell: Palmer (since both Alboreto and Alesi outscored him)
Williams: Boutsen
Brabham: Brundle (since Modena got a podium and he didn't even though they tied on points)
Arrows: Cheever
Lotus: Nakajima
March: Capelli
Osella: Ghinzani
Benetoon: Herbert/Pirro
Dallara: Caffi (same reason as Brundle when they were tied on points)
Minardi: Perez-Sala/Barilla
Ligier: Grouillard
Ferrari: Berger
Lola: Dalmas/Bernard/Alboreto
Onyx: Gachot/Lehto
Basically the number 2 drivers from Coloni, Zakspeed, Rial, AGS and the sole EuroBrun never register a finish or even qualify for a race, so I don;t include them anyway!
Alain Prost 99 (126) (14 wins but had to drop three of them!!!!)
Michele Alboreto 45 (1 win, 6 2nd)
Alessandro Nannini 36 (1 win, 3 2nd)
Eddie Cheever 29 (2 2nd)
Riccardo Patrese 29 (1 2nd)
Mauricio Gugelmin 25 (2 2nd)
Satoru Nakajima 24 (1 3rd, 6 4th)
Andrea De Cesaris 16 (1 2nd, 2 3rd)
Alex Caffi 14 (2 3rd)
Yannick Dalmas 12 (1 3rd)
Philippe Streiff 12 (2 4th)
Luis Perez-Sala 8 (1 4th)
Gabriele Tarquini 6 (1 2nd)
Julian Bailey 3 (1 5th)
Nicola Larini 2 (1 5th)
Piercarlo Ghinzani 1
Rene Arnoux 1
That was so dominant it was ridiculous. Prost only failed to win races he retired from. Even if you had Senna in instead it made very little difference. My favourite thing there are the podiums for Dalmas and Tarquini!
1989 could be complicated due to loads of driver changes, and lots of rejects but this is what I'll go with:
McLaren: Senna (the only time he'll be in this I reckon)
Tyrrell: Palmer (since both Alboreto and Alesi outscored him)
Williams: Boutsen
Brabham: Brundle (since Modena got a podium and he didn't even though they tied on points)
Arrows: Cheever
Lotus: Nakajima
March: Capelli
Osella: Ghinzani
Benetoon: Herbert/Pirro
Dallara: Caffi (same reason as Brundle when they were tied on points)
Minardi: Perez-Sala/Barilla
Ligier: Grouillard
Ferrari: Berger
Lola: Dalmas/Bernard/Alboreto
Onyx: Gachot/Lehto
Basically the number 2 drivers from Coloni, Zakspeed, Rial, AGS and the sole EuroBrun never register a finish or even qualify for a race, so I don;t include them anyway!
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
1989
Ayrton Senna 69 (7 wins)
Thierry Boutsen 59 (3 wins, 4 2nd)
Eddie Cheever 38 (1 win, 2 2nd)
Jonathan Palmer 29 (2 2nd)
Martin Brundle 27 (2 2nd)
Gerhard Berger 24 (2 wins)
Olivier Grouillard 24 (1 win, 1 2nd) (!!!!!)
Alex Caffi 24 (2 2nd)
Satoru Nakajima 20 (1 2nd)
Johnny Herbert 17 (1 win, 1 2nd)
Emanuele Pirro 16 (3 3rd)
Luis Perez-Sala 13 (1 win)
Ivan Capelli 3 (1 4th)
Michele Alboreto 2 (1 5th) - only his scores for Larrouuse are counted, since he was the lead Tyrrell driver when he was there.
Eric Bernard 2 (1 5th)
Bertrand Gachot 2 (2 6th).
It looks close between Senna and Boutsen but wasn't really, as Boutsen won the last 2 races with Senna not scoring. Herbert and Pirro's combined score takes Benetton up to 33, where you'd expect them to be in terms of competitiveness. Best thing is more obscure winners when Senna, Boutsen and Berger all hit trouble - Herbert, Cheever, Grouillard and Perez-Sala, yes two rejects win races!
Line-up for 1990 will be:
Ferrari: Mansell
Tyrrell: Nakajima
Williams: Patrese
Brabham: Foitek/D Brabham
Arrows: Alboreto (since Caffi scored their only points)
Lotus: Donnelly/Herbert
Osella: Grouillard (only one car)
Leyton-House: Gugelmin
AGS: Dalmas (the featured reject)
Benetton: Nannini/Moreno
Dallara: De Cesaris
Minardi: Barilla/Morbidelli
Ligier: Alliot (becuase Larini did so well in the other alternative championship I did for this year!)
McLaren: Berger
Larrousse: Bernard (since Suzuki got their podium)
Onyx: JOhansson/Foitek
Not even mentioning Life.
Ayrton Senna 69 (7 wins)
Thierry Boutsen 59 (3 wins, 4 2nd)
Eddie Cheever 38 (1 win, 2 2nd)
Jonathan Palmer 29 (2 2nd)
Martin Brundle 27 (2 2nd)
Gerhard Berger 24 (2 wins)
Olivier Grouillard 24 (1 win, 1 2nd) (!!!!!)
Alex Caffi 24 (2 2nd)
Satoru Nakajima 20 (1 2nd)
Johnny Herbert 17 (1 win, 1 2nd)
Emanuele Pirro 16 (3 3rd)
Luis Perez-Sala 13 (1 win)
Ivan Capelli 3 (1 4th)
Michele Alboreto 2 (1 5th) - only his scores for Larrouuse are counted, since he was the lead Tyrrell driver when he was there.
Eric Bernard 2 (1 5th)
Bertrand Gachot 2 (2 6th).
It looks close between Senna and Boutsen but wasn't really, as Boutsen won the last 2 races with Senna not scoring. Herbert and Pirro's combined score takes Benetton up to 33, where you'd expect them to be in terms of competitiveness. Best thing is more obscure winners when Senna, Boutsen and Berger all hit trouble - Herbert, Cheever, Grouillard and Perez-Sala, yes two rejects win races!
Line-up for 1990 will be:
Ferrari: Mansell
Tyrrell: Nakajima
Williams: Patrese
Brabham: Foitek/D Brabham
Arrows: Alboreto (since Caffi scored their only points)
Lotus: Donnelly/Herbert
Osella: Grouillard (only one car)
Leyton-House: Gugelmin
AGS: Dalmas (the featured reject)
Benetton: Nannini/Moreno
Dallara: De Cesaris
Minardi: Barilla/Morbidelli
Ligier: Alliot (becuase Larini did so well in the other alternative championship I did for this year!)
McLaren: Berger
Larrousse: Bernard (since Suzuki got their podium)
Onyx: JOhansson/Foitek
Not even mentioning Life.
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
1990
Gerhard Berger 81 (84) (5 wins, 6 2nd - he had to drop a 4th)
Nigel Mansell 57 (5 wins, 2 2nd)
Riccardo Patrese 55 (56) (2 wins, 2 2nd)
Eric Bernard 39 (1 win, 3 2nd)
Alessandro Nannini 36 (1 win, 2 2nd)
Satoru Nakajima 23 (1 win, 2 3rd)
Philippe Alliot 18 (1 3rd)
Martin Donnelly 14 (2 3rd)
Robero Moreno 12 (1 win)
Mauricio Gugelmin 12 (1 3rd)
Michele Alboreto 11 (1 4th)
Paolo Barilla 8 (1 2nd)
Gregor Foitek 4 (1 3rd)
Olivier Grouillard 3 (1 5th)
Yannick Dalmas 1 (1 5th)
Andrea De Cesaris 2 (2 6th)
Only two obscure winners (Bernard and Nakajima), but the British GP had one of the best podiums ever - Bernard, Barilla and Alliot. Foitek also gets a podium at Monaco!
1991 line-up will be:
McLaren: Berger
Tyrrell: Nakajima
Williams: Patrese
Brabham: Blundell
Footwork: Alboreto (as Caffi recorded a higher finish)
Lotus: Bailey/Herbert/Bartels
Fondmetal: one car only for Grouillard/Tarquini
Leyton House: Gugelmin
AGS: Barbazza, though he never qualified
Benetton: Moreno/Schumacher (the only time Schumacher will feature until 2010 I think!)
Dallara: Pirro
Minardi: Morbidelli/Moreno
Ligier: Comas
Ferrari: Alesi
Larrousse: Suzuki (a toss-up since they got 1 point each, but I gave Bernard 1990 so am evening it out)
Coloni never qualified so irrelevant
Jordan: the various #32 drivers
Lambo: Van De Poele
Last year of one-car teams too!
Gerhard Berger 81 (84) (5 wins, 6 2nd - he had to drop a 4th)
Nigel Mansell 57 (5 wins, 2 2nd)
Riccardo Patrese 55 (56) (2 wins, 2 2nd)
Eric Bernard 39 (1 win, 3 2nd)
Alessandro Nannini 36 (1 win, 2 2nd)
Satoru Nakajima 23 (1 win, 2 3rd)
Philippe Alliot 18 (1 3rd)
Martin Donnelly 14 (2 3rd)
Robero Moreno 12 (1 win)
Mauricio Gugelmin 12 (1 3rd)
Michele Alboreto 11 (1 4th)
Paolo Barilla 8 (1 2nd)
Gregor Foitek 4 (1 3rd)
Olivier Grouillard 3 (1 5th)
Yannick Dalmas 1 (1 5th)
Andrea De Cesaris 2 (2 6th)
Only two obscure winners (Bernard and Nakajima), but the British GP had one of the best podiums ever - Bernard, Barilla and Alliot. Foitek also gets a podium at Monaco!
1991 line-up will be:
McLaren: Berger
Tyrrell: Nakajima
Williams: Patrese
Brabham: Blundell
Footwork: Alboreto (as Caffi recorded a higher finish)
Lotus: Bailey/Herbert/Bartels
Fondmetal: one car only for Grouillard/Tarquini
Leyton House: Gugelmin
AGS: Barbazza, though he never qualified
Benetton: Moreno/Schumacher (the only time Schumacher will feature until 2010 I think!)
Dallara: Pirro
Minardi: Morbidelli/Moreno
Ligier: Comas
Ferrari: Alesi
Larrousse: Suzuki (a toss-up since they got 1 point each, but I gave Bernard 1990 so am evening it out)
Coloni never qualified so irrelevant
Jordan: the various #32 drivers
Lambo: Van De Poele
Last year of one-car teams too!
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
1991
Riccardo Patrese 89 (7 wins)
Gerhard Berger 71 (6 wins*)
Jean Alesi 46 (2 wins)
Roberto Moreno 27 (3 2nd) - includes 1 for Jordan
Bertrand Gachot 24 (2 2nd)
Satoru Nakajima 18 (1 win)
Emanuele Pirro 18 (2 3rd*)
Mauricio Gugelmin 15 (2 3rd)
Michael Schumacher 14 (1 2nd)
Gianni Morbidelli 14 (2 3rd) - Minardi points only since Alesi was Ferrari's #2
Erik Comas 13 (1 3rd)
Johnny Herbert 10 (2 4th)
Mark Blundell 8 (1 3rd)
Aguri Suzuki 6 (1 2nd)
Julian Bailey 6 (1 2nd)
Gabriele Tarquini 4 (1 4th)
Alessandro Zanardi 3.5 (1 4th*)
Eric Van De Poele 3 (1 4th)
Michele Alboreto 0.5 (1 6th*)
*Half points for Australia of course. This rather closely resembles the "No Real Champions" Championship with the top 4 teams all having a champion as their lead driver, and a non-champion as the number 2! (Apart from Benetton having 2 champions driving at the end of the year....)
Sadly only one obscure winner too (Nakajima in USA for the 2nd year running).
1992 line-up will be:
McLaren: Berger
Tyrrell: Grouillard
Williams: Patrese
Brabham: Van De Poele (as the #2 to Damon Hill, not to Giovanna Amati)
Footwork: Suzuki
Lotus: Herbert
Fondmetal: Chiesa/Van De Poele
March: Belmondo/Naspetti
Benetton: Brundle
Dallara: Lehto
Minardi: Morbidelli
Ligier: Boutsen
Ferrari: Capelli/Larini
Larrousse: Katayama
Jordan: Gugelmin
Riccardo Patrese 89 (7 wins)
Gerhard Berger 71 (6 wins*)
Jean Alesi 46 (2 wins)
Roberto Moreno 27 (3 2nd) - includes 1 for Jordan
Bertrand Gachot 24 (2 2nd)
Satoru Nakajima 18 (1 win)
Emanuele Pirro 18 (2 3rd*)
Mauricio Gugelmin 15 (2 3rd)
Michael Schumacher 14 (1 2nd)
Gianni Morbidelli 14 (2 3rd) - Minardi points only since Alesi was Ferrari's #2
Erik Comas 13 (1 3rd)
Johnny Herbert 10 (2 4th)
Mark Blundell 8 (1 3rd)
Aguri Suzuki 6 (1 2nd)
Julian Bailey 6 (1 2nd)
Gabriele Tarquini 4 (1 4th)
Alessandro Zanardi 3.5 (1 4th*)
Eric Van De Poele 3 (1 4th)
Michele Alboreto 0.5 (1 6th*)
*Half points for Australia of course. This rather closely resembles the "No Real Champions" Championship with the top 4 teams all having a champion as their lead driver, and a non-champion as the number 2! (Apart from Benetton having 2 champions driving at the end of the year....)
Sadly only one obscure winner too (Nakajima in USA for the 2nd year running).
1992 line-up will be:
McLaren: Berger
Tyrrell: Grouillard
Williams: Patrese
Brabham: Van De Poele (as the #2 to Damon Hill, not to Giovanna Amati)
Footwork: Suzuki
Lotus: Herbert
Fondmetal: Chiesa/Van De Poele
March: Belmondo/Naspetti
Benetton: Brundle
Dallara: Lehto
Minardi: Morbidelli
Ligier: Boutsen
Ferrari: Capelli/Larini
Larrousse: Katayama
Jordan: Gugelmin
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)
Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
Schumacher may be in for 1999, or am I wrong?
Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
Klon wrote:Schumacher may be in for 1999, or am I wrong?
Haven't thought that far ahead yet, but probably, since I think his and Salo's points were altogether less than Irvine's!
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
1992
Riccardo Patrese 98 (9 wins)
Gerhard Berger 78 (5 wins, 4 2nd)
Martin Brundle 72 (2 wins, 8 2nd)
JJ Lehto 30 (1 2nd)
Aguri Suzuki 26 (1 2nd, 6 4th)
Thierry Boutsen 24 (1 2nd)
Ivan Capelli 17 (1 2nd)
Gianni Morbidelli 15 (1 3rd)
Johnny Herbert 12 (3 3rd)
Mauricio Gugelmin 8 (1 3rd)
Paul Belmondo 8 (2 4th)
Ukyo Katayama 8 (1 4th)
Olivier Grouillard 7 (1 4th)
Emanuele Naspetti 3 (1 5th)
Eric Van De Poele 2 (1 5th)
Nicola Larini 1 (1 6th)
Total domination by the top 3 teams, and the wins shared between them. JJ Lehto surprises by coming best of the rest, in the real championship, he didn't even score a point! Van De Poele's points finish was for Fondmetal.
Chosen line-up for 1993:
Williams: Hill
Tyrrell: Katayama
Benetton: Patrese
McLaren: Andretti/Hakkinen
Footwork: Suzuki
Lotus: Zanardi/Lamy
Jordan: all the various drivers of #15
Larrousse: Comas
Lola: Badoer (remember what I said about a reject against a non-reject when they both struggle!)
Minardi: Barbazza/Martini
Ligier: Blundell
Ferrari: Berger
Sauber: Lehto
Riccardo Patrese 98 (9 wins)
Gerhard Berger 78 (5 wins, 4 2nd)
Martin Brundle 72 (2 wins, 8 2nd)
JJ Lehto 30 (1 2nd)
Aguri Suzuki 26 (1 2nd, 6 4th)
Thierry Boutsen 24 (1 2nd)
Ivan Capelli 17 (1 2nd)
Gianni Morbidelli 15 (1 3rd)
Johnny Herbert 12 (3 3rd)
Mauricio Gugelmin 8 (1 3rd)
Paul Belmondo 8 (2 4th)
Ukyo Katayama 8 (1 4th)
Olivier Grouillard 7 (1 4th)
Emanuele Naspetti 3 (1 5th)
Eric Van De Poele 2 (1 5th)
Nicola Larini 1 (1 6th)
Total domination by the top 3 teams, and the wins shared between them. JJ Lehto surprises by coming best of the rest, in the real championship, he didn't even score a point! Van De Poele's points finish was for Fondmetal.
Chosen line-up for 1993:
Williams: Hill
Tyrrell: Katayama
Benetton: Patrese
McLaren: Andretti/Hakkinen
Footwork: Suzuki
Lotus: Zanardi/Lamy
Jordan: all the various drivers of #15
Larrousse: Comas
Lola: Badoer (remember what I said about a reject against a non-reject when they both struggle!)
Minardi: Barbazza/Martini
Ligier: Blundell
Ferrari: Berger
Sauber: Lehto
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
1993
Damon Hill 107 (10 wins)
Riccardo Patrese 56 (2 wins, 4 2nd)
Mark Blundell 44 (2 wins, 2 2nd)
JJ Lehto 35 (1 win, 2 2nd)
Gerhard Berger 33 (2 2nd, 4 3rd)
Michael Andretti 26 (3 2nd, 2 3rd)
Erik Comas 17 (4 4th)
Alessandro Zanardi 15 (1 2nd, 1 3rd)
Fabrizio Barbazza 13 (1 2nd, 1 3rd)
Mika Hakkinen 10 (1 win)
Aguri Suzuki 10 (1 3rd, 1 4th, 1 5th, 1 6th)
Luca Badoer 9 (1 3rd)
Pierluigi Martini 9 (1 3rd)
Thierry Boutsen 9 (2 4th)
Eddie Irvine 4 (1 3rd)
Ukyo Katayama 4 (1 4th).
The champion was pretty inevitable, but gotta love the podiums for Barbazza and Badoer!! Also Ligier beats McLaren's total!!
OK 1994 is probably going to be difficult due to all the replacements during the year, but this is probably what I'll go for:
Williams: Coulthard/Mansell
Tyrrell: Katayama (he scored less points than Blundell and has more following on here!)
Benetton: the drivers of #6 (so will be Verstappen for the races that Schumacher was banned)
McLaren: Brundle
Footwork: Morbidelli
Lotus: Lamy/Zanardi/Adams (totally forgot about him!)
Jordan: Irvine/Suzuki/De Cesaris
Larrousse: the #19 car as Comas only missed one race at the end of the year (sorry, no Deletraz)
Minardi: Alboreto
Ligier: Bernard/Herbert/Lagorce
Ferrari: Alesi/Larini
Sauber: Wendlinger/De Cesaris/Lehto
Simtek: Brabham (so I don't have to include any fatalities)
Pacific: Belmondo
I'll do a constructors championship too to try and simplify it.
If anyone totally disagrees I've made a wrong choice, I may consider changing it if anyone says so in the next 24 hours or so.
Damon Hill 107 (10 wins)
Riccardo Patrese 56 (2 wins, 4 2nd)
Mark Blundell 44 (2 wins, 2 2nd)
JJ Lehto 35 (1 win, 2 2nd)
Gerhard Berger 33 (2 2nd, 4 3rd)
Michael Andretti 26 (3 2nd, 2 3rd)
Erik Comas 17 (4 4th)
Alessandro Zanardi 15 (1 2nd, 1 3rd)
Fabrizio Barbazza 13 (1 2nd, 1 3rd)
Mika Hakkinen 10 (1 win)
Aguri Suzuki 10 (1 3rd, 1 4th, 1 5th, 1 6th)
Luca Badoer 9 (1 3rd)
Pierluigi Martini 9 (1 3rd)
Thierry Boutsen 9 (2 4th)
Eddie Irvine 4 (1 3rd)
Ukyo Katayama 4 (1 4th).
The champion was pretty inevitable, but gotta love the podiums for Barbazza and Badoer!! Also Ligier beats McLaren's total!!
OK 1994 is probably going to be difficult due to all the replacements during the year, but this is probably what I'll go for:
Williams: Coulthard/Mansell
Tyrrell: Katayama (he scored less points than Blundell and has more following on here!)
Benetton: the drivers of #6 (so will be Verstappen for the races that Schumacher was banned)
McLaren: Brundle
Footwork: Morbidelli
Lotus: Lamy/Zanardi/Adams (totally forgot about him!)
Jordan: Irvine/Suzuki/De Cesaris
Larrousse: the #19 car as Comas only missed one race at the end of the year (sorry, no Deletraz)
Minardi: Alboreto
Ligier: Bernard/Herbert/Lagorce
Ferrari: Alesi/Larini
Sauber: Wendlinger/De Cesaris/Lehto
Simtek: Brabham (so I don't have to include any fatalities)
Pacific: Belmondo
I'll do a constructors championship too to try and simplify it.
If anyone totally disagrees I've made a wrong choice, I may consider changing it if anyone says so in the next 24 hours or so.
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
1994
Drivers:
Jean Alesi 61 (5 wins)
Martin Brundle 40 (2 wins)
Eric Bernard 35 (1 win, 1 2nd)
David Coulthard 34 (1 win, 4 2nd)
Jos Verstappen 29 (2 wins, 1 2nd)
Eddie Irvine 24 (1 win, 1 2nd, 1 3rd)
Ukyo Katayama 20 (2 2nd, 2 3rd)
Andrea De Cesaris 16 (1 win for Sauber, 1 2nd for Jordan)
Nigel Mansell 16 (1 win, 1 2nd)
Gianni Morbidelli 14 (1 2nd, 1 3rd)
Michele Alboreto 14 (1 3rd, 3 4th)
Pedro Lamy 13 (1 win, 1 4th)
Nicola Larini 10 (1 win)
Karl Wendlinger 10 (1 2nd, 1 3rd)
JJ Lehto 9 (1 3rd, 1 4th, 1 5th) (6 for Benetton, 3 for Sauber)
Olivier Beretta 9 (1 3rd, 1 4th, 2 6th)
David Brabham 9 (1 4th)
Alex Zanardi 5 (1 4th)
Johnny Herbert 4 (1 3rd - this was for Ligier at Jerez)
Franck Lagorce 2 (1 5th)
Constructors:
Ferrari 71
Williams 50
Ligier 41
McLaren 40
Benetton 35
Jordan 30
Sauber 23
Tyrrell 20
Lotus 18
Footwork 14 (had 1 2nd place)
Minardi 14 (best result 3rd)
Larrousse 9 (best result 3rd)
Simtek 9 (best result 4th)
Holy crap, that was complicated, I guess the constructors gives a better picture than the drivers!
There was two really weird races: At Aida, only Lamy and Bernard finished! And at Magny-Cours, the only finisher was De Cesaris (the last driver you'd expect to do that!!)
Drivers:
Jean Alesi 61 (5 wins)
Martin Brundle 40 (2 wins)
Eric Bernard 35 (1 win, 1 2nd)
David Coulthard 34 (1 win, 4 2nd)
Jos Verstappen 29 (2 wins, 1 2nd)
Eddie Irvine 24 (1 win, 1 2nd, 1 3rd)
Ukyo Katayama 20 (2 2nd, 2 3rd)
Andrea De Cesaris 16 (1 win for Sauber, 1 2nd for Jordan)
Nigel Mansell 16 (1 win, 1 2nd)
Gianni Morbidelli 14 (1 2nd, 1 3rd)
Michele Alboreto 14 (1 3rd, 3 4th)
Pedro Lamy 13 (1 win, 1 4th)
Nicola Larini 10 (1 win)
Karl Wendlinger 10 (1 2nd, 1 3rd)
JJ Lehto 9 (1 3rd, 1 4th, 1 5th) (6 for Benetton, 3 for Sauber)
Olivier Beretta 9 (1 3rd, 1 4th, 2 6th)
David Brabham 9 (1 4th)
Alex Zanardi 5 (1 4th)
Johnny Herbert 4 (1 3rd - this was for Ligier at Jerez)
Franck Lagorce 2 (1 5th)
Constructors:
Ferrari 71
Williams 50
Ligier 41
McLaren 40
Benetton 35
Jordan 30
Sauber 23
Tyrrell 20
Lotus 18
Footwork 14 (had 1 2nd place)
Minardi 14 (best result 3rd)
Larrousse 9 (best result 3rd)
Simtek 9 (best result 4th)
Holy crap, that was complicated, I guess the constructors gives a better picture than the drivers!
There was two really weird races: At Aida, only Lamy and Bernard finished! And at Magny-Cours, the only finisher was De Cesaris (the last driver you'd expect to do that!!)
Last edited by James1978 on 06 Nov 2010, 14:03, edited 1 time in total.
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
Line-up for 1995 will be:
Benetton: Herbert
Tyrrell: Katayama/Tarquini
Williams: Coulthard
McLaren: Blundelll/Mansell
Footwork: Inoue
Simtek: Schiattarella
Jordan: Barrichello (I wanted to give him a year pre-Ferrari and I always got the impression Irvine was the lead driver but suffered worse reliability)
Pacific: Montermini (Gachot who is a non-reject was his teammate for most of the year)
Forti: Diniz
Minardi: Badoer
Ligier: Brundle/Suzuki
Ferrari: Berger
Sauber: Wendlinger/Boullion
Benetton: Herbert
Tyrrell: Katayama/Tarquini
Williams: Coulthard
McLaren: Blundelll/Mansell
Footwork: Inoue
Simtek: Schiattarella
Jordan: Barrichello (I wanted to give him a year pre-Ferrari and I always got the impression Irvine was the lead driver but suffered worse reliability)
Pacific: Montermini (Gachot who is a non-reject was his teammate for most of the year)
Forti: Diniz
Minardi: Badoer
Ligier: Brundle/Suzuki
Ferrari: Berger
Sauber: Wendlinger/Boullion
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
1995
Johnny Herbert 83 (5 wins, 1 2nd, 6 3rd)
David Coulthard 82 (7 wins, 2 2nd)
Gerhard Berger 66 (2 wins, 7 2nd)
Mark Blundell 48 (1 win, 3 2nd)
Rubens Barrichello 33 (1 win, 1 2nd, 3 3rd)
Martin Brundle 28 (1 win, 1 2nd, 4 4th)
Luca Badoer 19 (1 2nd, 1 3rd)
Jean-Christophe Boullion 16 (1 3rd)
Pedro Diniz 12 (1 2nd)
Taki Inoue 10 (1 3rd, 1 4th, 1 5th, 1 6th)
Ukyo Katayama 8 (1 3rd)
Aguri Suzuki 7 (1 4th)
Karl Wendlinger 5 (1 4th)
Domenico Schiattarella 4 (1 4th)
Nigel Mansell 3 (1 4th)
Andrea Montermini 2 (1 5th)
Very close 3-way battle for most of the year Berger actually led for much of the first two-thirds of the year, but only finishing 2 of the last 7 races put paid to his chances. Herbert overtook DC in Japan and then both retired in Australia, so THAT pitlane crash did cost him this time. Ligier did come 5th with Suzuki's points overtaking Jordan. The weirdest race was Australia, only Blundell and Diniz finished the race!
BTW - anyone cursing me not including Lavaggi or Deletraz, it doesn't matter as neither of them would have scored even picking the other Pacific.
For 1996 I think most choices are obvious, the only ones I'm not sure on are Minardi and Forti - for Minardi I was going to go with Lamy (as his most regular teammate was Fisichella who's a non-reject, including Lamy would give the qualified reject the full year), and for Forti I was going to include Badoer due to him being much more popular on here than Montermini!
Johnny Herbert 83 (5 wins, 1 2nd, 6 3rd)
David Coulthard 82 (7 wins, 2 2nd)
Gerhard Berger 66 (2 wins, 7 2nd)
Mark Blundell 48 (1 win, 3 2nd)
Rubens Barrichello 33 (1 win, 1 2nd, 3 3rd)
Martin Brundle 28 (1 win, 1 2nd, 4 4th)
Luca Badoer 19 (1 2nd, 1 3rd)
Jean-Christophe Boullion 16 (1 3rd)
Pedro Diniz 12 (1 2nd)
Taki Inoue 10 (1 3rd, 1 4th, 1 5th, 1 6th)
Ukyo Katayama 8 (1 3rd)
Aguri Suzuki 7 (1 4th)
Karl Wendlinger 5 (1 4th)
Domenico Schiattarella 4 (1 4th)
Nigel Mansell 3 (1 4th)
Andrea Montermini 2 (1 5th)
Very close 3-way battle for most of the year Berger actually led for much of the first two-thirds of the year, but only finishing 2 of the last 7 races put paid to his chances. Herbert overtook DC in Japan and then both retired in Australia, so THAT pitlane crash did cost him this time. Ligier did come 5th with Suzuki's points overtaking Jordan. The weirdest race was Australia, only Blundell and Diniz finished the race!
BTW - anyone cursing me not including Lavaggi or Deletraz, it doesn't matter as neither of them would have scored even picking the other Pacific.
For 1996 I think most choices are obvious, the only ones I'm not sure on are Minardi and Forti - for Minardi I was going to go with Lamy (as his most regular teammate was Fisichella who's a non-reject, including Lamy would give the qualified reject the full year), and for Forti I was going to include Badoer due to him being much more popular on here than Montermini!
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)
Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
On my medals system, Herbert scored 1 more point than Coulthard, but 3 less wins, so the chamionship went to Coulthard...
kevinbotz wrote:Cantonese is a completely nonsensical f*cking alien language masquerading as some grossly bastardised form of Chinese
Gonzo wrote:Wasn't there some sort of communisim in the East part of Germany?
Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
1996
Jacques Villeneuve 115 (11 wins)
Gerhard Berger 49 (2 wins, 3 2nd)
David Coulthard 44 (1 win, 3 2nd)
Eddie Irvine 38 (1 win, 4 2nd)
Martin Brundle 37 (1 win, 1 2nd, 3 3rd)
Johnny Herbert 26 (1 2nd, 6 4th)
Pedro Diniz 25 (3 2nd, 1 3rd)
Ukyo Katayama 18 (1 2nd, 2 3rd)
Ricardo Rosset 16 (1 3rd, 3 4th)
Pedro Lamy 13 (2 4th)
Luca Badoer 4 (2 5th)
More or less what you would expect, total domination for Villeneuve - he had a run of 7 consecutive wins from Spain to Belgium!
BTW - If I'd included the other Minardi car, Lavaggi would have unrejectified himself with one 4th place.
Jacques Villeneuve 115 (11 wins)
Gerhard Berger 49 (2 wins, 3 2nd)
David Coulthard 44 (1 win, 3 2nd)
Eddie Irvine 38 (1 win, 4 2nd)
Martin Brundle 37 (1 win, 1 2nd, 3 3rd)
Johnny Herbert 26 (1 2nd, 6 4th)
Pedro Diniz 25 (3 2nd, 1 3rd)
Ukyo Katayama 18 (1 2nd, 2 3rd)
Ricardo Rosset 16 (1 3rd, 3 4th)
Pedro Lamy 13 (2 4th)
Luca Badoer 4 (2 5th)
More or less what you would expect, total domination for Villeneuve - he had a run of 7 consecutive wins from Spain to Belgium!
BTW - If I'd included the other Minardi car, Lavaggi would have unrejectified himself with one 4th place.
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
For 1997 I will include:
Arrows: Diniz
Williams: Frentzen
Ferrari: Irvine
Benetton: Alesi (as Berger scored their win, and the difference between them would have been very small if Berger had completed the year)
McLaren: Hakkinen (his first appearance in this for a full season, he'll only get one more in 2001)
Jordan: Ralf Schumacher
Prost: Nakano
Sauber: Larini/Morbidelli/Fontana
Tyrrell: Verstappen
Minardi: Trulli/Marques
Stewart: Magnussen
Arrows: Diniz
Williams: Frentzen
Ferrari: Irvine
Benetton: Alesi (as Berger scored their win, and the difference between them would have been very small if Berger had completed the year)
McLaren: Hakkinen (his first appearance in this for a full season, he'll only get one more in 2001)
Jordan: Ralf Schumacher
Prost: Nakano
Sauber: Larini/Morbidelli/Fontana
Tyrrell: Verstappen
Minardi: Trulli/Marques
Stewart: Magnussen
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)Re: The Number 2s Alternative championship
1997
Heinz-Harald Frentzen 83 (5 wins)
Jean Alesi 82 (5 wins)
Mika Hakkinen 60 (4 wins)
Eddie Irvine 56 (2 wins, 4 2nd)
Ralf Schumacher 39 (1 win, 4 2nd)
Shinji Nakano 24 (1 2nd, 2 3rd)
Pedro Diniz 17 (1 2nd, 1 3rd)
Gianni Morbidelli 13 (1 3rd, 2 4th)
Jan Magnussen 12 (1 2nd)
Jos Verstappen 12 (1 3rd)
Nicola Larini 11 (1 2nd)
Norberto Fontana 6 (1 3rd)
Jarno Trulli 6 (3 5th) - he features for Minardi only here
Tarso Marques 5 (1 4th)
Ironically, if Hakkinen hadn't been disqualified at Spa, Alesi would have beaten Frentzen (since Frentzen gained 4 points and Alesi just 1)!!! Also sadly for Shinji, if Fisichella had been Jordan's number 2 rather than Ralf, then Nakano would have won in Hungary........
Sauber managed to the 6th in the Constructors, with a combined total of Larini, Morbidelli and Fontana!
Line up for 1998:
Williams: Frentzen
Ferrari: Irvine
Benetton: Fisichella (Wurz was actually 1 point ahead of him that year!)
McLaren: Coulthard
Jordan: Ralf Schumacher
Prost: Panis
Sauber: Herbert
Arrows: Diniz
Stewart: Magnussen/Verstappen
Tyrrell: Rosset
Minardi: Nakano (becuase of his superior following on this site compared to Tuero!!!)
Heinz-Harald Frentzen 83 (5 wins)
Jean Alesi 82 (5 wins)
Mika Hakkinen 60 (4 wins)
Eddie Irvine 56 (2 wins, 4 2nd)
Ralf Schumacher 39 (1 win, 4 2nd)
Shinji Nakano 24 (1 2nd, 2 3rd)
Pedro Diniz 17 (1 2nd, 1 3rd)
Gianni Morbidelli 13 (1 3rd, 2 4th)
Jan Magnussen 12 (1 2nd)
Jos Verstappen 12 (1 3rd)
Nicola Larini 11 (1 2nd)
Norberto Fontana 6 (1 3rd)
Jarno Trulli 6 (3 5th) - he features for Minardi only here
Tarso Marques 5 (1 4th)
Ironically, if Hakkinen hadn't been disqualified at Spa, Alesi would have beaten Frentzen (since Frentzen gained 4 points and Alesi just 1)!!! Also sadly for Shinji, if Fisichella had been Jordan's number 2 rather than Ralf, then Nakano would have won in Hungary........
Sauber managed to the 6th in the Constructors, with a combined total of Larini, Morbidelli and Fontana!
Line up for 1998:
Williams: Frentzen
Ferrari: Irvine
Benetton: Fisichella (Wurz was actually 1 point ahead of him that year!)
McLaren: Coulthard
Jordan: Ralf Schumacher
Prost: Panis
Sauber: Herbert
Arrows: Diniz
Stewart: Magnussen/Verstappen
Tyrrell: Rosset
Minardi: Nakano (becuase of his superior following on this site compared to Tuero!!!)
"Poor old Warwick takes it from behind all throughout this season". (Tony Jardine, 1988)
(Tony Jardine, 1988)