Likely tracks for breakaway series

TimmyB · Post by **TimmyB** » 19 Jun 2009, 09:46

Ok, so lets assume for a second that the breakaway series does actually happen...

The question is, which tracks could they realistically use? That is, which tracks that are up to F1 standard are not currently on the F1 calendar?

This is not a circuit 'wish list', but more a case of us giving FOTA a helping hand as (I'm sure) they begin organising their 2010 season...

I'll start it off with 2 obvious ones: Silverstone and Portimao...

PS. The only benefit I see in a breakaway series is it's something to watch on the Sunday nights that F1 isn't on.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 19 Jun 2009, 10:15

Not Laguna Seca. No facilities, no grandstands and the Corkscrew is too dangerous.

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 19 Jun 2009, 10:20

I think Ferrari own Mugello, and obviously Toyota own Fuji.

other than that, one somewhere in North America, then 10 rounds at silverstone.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 19 Jun 2009, 10:20

I suppose they might try to grab something in the US. Indianapolis seems reasonable, it doesn't have any agreement with FOM and doesn't really depend on the FIA for anything.

noisebox · Post by **noisebox** » 19 Jun 2009, 10:57

There's a few...

Jerez, Valencia (the test track, not the street circuit), Estoril, Imola, Magny Cours, Montreal, Nurburgring just off the top of my head.

If it happens I'd like it to be based around tracks where people might actually turn up to the races. I don't think it will though, the teams hold all the cards here and I think this is the beginning of the end for Max.

tristan1117 · Post by **tristan1117** » 19 Jun 2009, 11:05

Zandvoort, and Brands Hatch are available so I hear. Also I suggest a race at either Road America or Long Beach in the US. On a less serious note, Caesar's Palace is always open.

Pedro_Diniz · Post by **Pedro_Diniz** » 19 Jun 2009, 11:21

Yay, reject circuits!

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 19 Jun 2009, 11:29

tristan1117 wrote:Zandvoort, and Brands Hatch are available so I hear. Also I suggest a race at either Road America or Long Beach in the US. On a less serious note, Caesar's Palace is always open.

Actually, I believed the built over the car park to make way for more room in the casino.

Gumby · Post by **Gumby** » 19 Jun 2009, 11:30

The old Adelaide street circuit is still in use once each year for the V8's... Wouldn't take too much work to get it back to F1 standard. Also, how about Phillip Island(maybe as the support for the Moto GP) !! But how about this one - The Top Gear test track :lol:

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 19 Jun 2009, 12:29

Here is a suggestion. I think I may have written something like this before somewhere on the web:

01 Kyalami - South African GP
02 Dubai - Gulf GP
03 Portimao - Portuguese GP
04 Imola - Italian GP
05 Montreal - Canadian GP
06 Indianapolis - USA East GP
07 Magny-Cours - French GP
08 Silverstone - British GP
09 Nürburgring (not on Bernie's calendar in 2010) - German GP
10 either Zandvoort (is it safe?), Brno (is it safe?) or the proposed Romanian track or a race in Russia, depending on in which series Vitaly Petrov, the current GP2 points leader finds a ride
11 Helsinki Thunder - Finnish GP
12 Circuito Ricardo Tormo (for the summit of the 2 series in Valencia) - Spanish GP
13 Las Vegas - USA West GP
14 Mexico City (is it safe?) - Mexican GP
15 Portrero de los Funes - Argentinian GP (would they be able to lure this one away from the FIA-GT?)
16 Fuji - Japanese GP
17 Surfers Paradise - Australian GP (that would be included in picking up the A1GP package)

VS

01 Sakhir - Bahrain GP
02 Sepang - Malaysian GP
03 Shanghai - Chinese GP
04 South Korean GP
05 Barcelona - Spanish GP
06 Monte Carlo - Monaco GP
07 Kurtkoy - Turkish GP
08 Le Castellet - French GP
09 Donington - British GP
10 Hockenheim - German GP
11 Hungaroring - Hungarian GP
12 Valencia Marina - European GP (the summit of the 2 series in the same town)
13 Spa - Belgian GP
14 Monza - Italian GP
15 Singapore GP
16 Suzuka - Japanese GP
17 Interlagos - Brazilian GP
18 Yas Island - Abu Dhabi GP (which seems questionable, depending on the involvement of Ferrari in this event)

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 19 Jun 2009, 12:38

Manufacturers will be interested in places where people buy bucketloads of cars, right? Take China or India...

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 19 Jun 2009, 12:42

Yannick wrote:17 Surfers Paradise - Australian GP (that would be included in picking up the A1GP package)

No way. Far too narrow and little more than chicane after chicane. If Homebush Bay proves to be an successful addition to the V8 calendar, an extended and heavily modified version could be used. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Olympic_Park]Syndey Olympic Park[/ur] would be a pretty good location for a street circuit.

Kuwashima · Post by **Kuwashima** » 19 Jun 2009, 12:57

If Homebush Bay proves to be an successful addition to the V8 calendar, an extended and heavily modified version could be used.

I remember years ago [when?] - they announced a 24 hr sportscar race (I think it was part of the ALMS at the time) would be held at Homebush. Never happened. Can't wait to see what they do for the V8s.

But I think Tim's question was more regarding legitimate opportunities for 2010, and there's no way (surely?) a FOTA series could be held in Homebush.

(By the way Capt H - a Firefly fan. Nice. Good show.)

noisebox · Post by **noisebox** » 19 Jun 2009, 13:04

Looks like they could have Monaco - this is from an article written by Andrew Benson on the BBC website:

"Monaco is understood not to be contractually committed to F1, so is free to do what it wants. And Prince Albert of Monaco strongly hinted in a BBC interview at this year's race that he could not envisage his race without Ferrari."

RFT · Post by **RFT** » 19 Jun 2009, 13:08

As far as tracks go, within the EU at least any moves or clauses preventing a track with a deal with f1 holding another race for a "competing" series would likely be illegal under EU competition law - this goes back the FIA's investigations in the mid-90s and the deals done with CART not to run on the same tracks.

Henrique · Post by **Henrique** » 19 Jun 2009, 13:13

They'll probably go for tracks that are owned by manufacturers (like Fuji) and tracks that aren't currently in F1 (like Portimão). Also, A1 Ring is owned by Red Bull. Dietrich Mateschitz said the track wouldn't host F1 or MotoGP, but that was back in October 2008. He may change his mind for the benefit of the cause.

Steve · Post by **Steve** » 19 Jun 2009, 13:13

I'm not a lawyer but if the two parties (the FIA and the circuit) agree exclusivity amongst themselves there's not much that the EU can do about it. However the FIA would have to offer some pretty massive incentives in order to get that kind of deal.

As I understand it, many of the classic tracks were dropped from the calendar because their facililites weren't considered good enough. I don't know if this was just Bernie having a go or if all the teams felt that way. Would the manufacturers put up with lower-quality facilities in return for having their own series? Personally I'd prefer to see circuits a bit rough and ready but packed out with fans, rather than some of the expensive but soulless venues we have in the current calendar.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 19 Jun 2009, 13:49

Kuwashima wrote:
If Homebush Bay proves to be an successful addition to the V8 calendar, an extended and heavily modified version could be used.

I remember years ago [when?] - they announced a 24 hr sportscar race (I think it was part of the ALMS at the time) would be held at Homebush. Never happened. Can't wait to see what they do for the V8s.

But I think Tim's question was more regarding legitimate opportunities for 2010, and there's no way (surely?) a FOTA series could be held in Homebush.

The proposed Homebush Bay circuit for the V8s is bland as hell. But with a few modifications, the councourse around Telstra Stadium could be modified to support the race. A corner that goes all around the perimetre of the stadium could be excellent.

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 19 Jun 2009, 15:41

Interlagos might join the breakaway series, there are not too many international events here nowadays. It will depend on whose arse will the Brazilian Autosport Confederation will want to kiss!

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 19 Jun 2009, 15:52

Update: Interlagos is bound by contract to FOM, so it will remain with FIA.

StoneColdSpider · Post by **StoneColdSpider** » 19 Jun 2009, 16:09

Adelaide is deffinently one option.... depends on if the govenement wants to close the streets twice in 1 year....

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 19 Jun 2009, 17:05

Jarapecagua?

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 19 Jun 2009, 17:37

Yannick wrote:11 Helsinki Thunder - Finnish GP

I can only dream... Closest thing to having an F1-race in Finland and within a realistic chance for me to see one was a promotional visit the Toyota f1-team did here few years ago when Trulli drove the car around the market square for a few laps...

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 19 Jun 2009, 17:45

thehemogoblin wrote:Jarapecagua?

The Jacarepagua circuit nowadays in unsuitable even for a wheelie bin race. It is good for cows to graze on the "forest" that has grown on cracks in the track.
Curitiba might be an option, but they will have to spend a considerable sum to ready it for any F-1 league.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 19 Jun 2009, 18:36

rffp wrote:
thehemogoblin wrote:Jarapecagua?

The Jacarepagua circuit nowadays in unsuitable even for a wheelie bin race. It is good for cows to graze on the "forest" that has grown on cracks in the track.
Curitiba might be an option, but they will have to spend a considerable sum to ready it for any F-1 league.

I'll defer to the Brazilian here.

Other circuits::

Autódromo Juan y Oscar Gálvez (Argentina)

Losail International Circuit (Qatar)

Portland International Raceway (Portland, Oregon, USA [It's within driving distance of my house and it definitely puts on a good show; I feel obligated to plug it])

TT Circuit Assen (The Netherlands)

Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez (Mexico)

Miller Motorsports Park (Salt Lake City, Utah, USA)

Misano World Circuit (Italy)

Eh?

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 19 Jun 2009, 20:54

UNlikely for any circuit to be available.... unless they build new ones... as any circuit used in the breakaway f1 would loose its FIA approval

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 20 Jun 2009, 00:14

WeirdKerr wrote:UNlikely for any circuit to be available.... unless they build new ones... as any circuit used in the breakaway f1 would loose its FIA approval

Manx TT track holds events every year for two weeks without FIA approval as far as I understand. And it would meet with F1 Rejects' site authors' desires of small European microstates getting GPs. Only problem might be its 37-mile length (approx 50km...)

Ross Prawn · Post by **Ross Prawn** » 20 Jun 2009, 00:59

dr-baker wrote:
WeirdKerr wrote:UNlikely for any circuit to be available.... unless they build new ones... as any circuit used in the breakaway f1 would loose its FIA approval

Manx TT track holds events every year for two weeks without FIA approval as far as I understand. And it would meet with F1 Rejects' site authors' desires of small European microstates getting GPs. Only problem might be its 37-mile length (approx 50km...)

And the small fact that its really too effing dangerous to race bikes on, never mind F1 cars.

Also having spent six hours throwing up on the Liverpool to Douglas ferry, its not my favorite venue.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 20 Jun 2009, 04:20

Everyone keeps suggesting that Formula One go back to Indianapolis, but the Formula One circuit there is boring as bat droppings. So how about America' other famous oval raceway, Daytona? It's already got an infield circuit and lighting so that it can be run at night. Something like this might be an idea:

Okay, so some of the councourse in the infield would have to be widened and re-surface, but I think it could work.

EDIT: Hmm, seems a part has been cut off by the width of the forum window. Never mind, it only goes around the banked outer curve anyway.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 20 Jun 2009, 04:46

Would it be possible to extend the straight before the hairpin at the far left of the page?

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 20 Jun 2009, 05:40

Only a little bit, but it won't flow into the next bend as well.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 20 Jun 2009, 09:12

Wizzie wrote:Would it be possible to extend the straight before the hairpin at the far left of the page?

Sure, out of the browser and into the desk itself.

Sure, Indy is boring as hell. My point was it's a "ready-to-race" package, it's tried and tested. It's not a ludicrous option to do it.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 21 Jun 2009, 12:14

Okay, here's what I'd like to see:

FOTA say they're all about the fans, so the series - I designate it "Formula Prime" - is divided into five "blocks" of five races with one race a week and a two-three weeks gap between blocks. For the sake of making things easy for the teams, the blocks are all centred round a geographical region. The first four races are Grands Prix, with the fifth race being a Grand Slam. Grand Slams are special races, twice the length of a normal event and worth double points. They also operate outside the normal rules: drivers are free to change engines and gearboxes without penalty. They're designed to be more of a spectacle than the normal race, and push the drivers harder than usual; after four straight races, they essentilly run two back-to-back, the equivalent of an endurance event, but without driver changes. This is the calendar:

1 - Argentine Grand Prix - Potrero de los Fuentes
2 - Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos
3 - United States Grand Prix - Miller Motorsports Park
4 - Canadian Grand Prix - Circuit Gilles Villeneuve

Special Event - Americas Grand Slam - Daytona Road / Night

5 - Spanish Grand Prix - Aragon
6 - French Grand Prix - Charade
7 - Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps
8 - British Grand Prix - Silverstone

Special Event - Mediterranean Grand Slam - Monaco

9 - German Grand Prix - Nurburgring GP
10 - Czech Grand Prix - Masaryk Circuit
11 - Italian Grand Prix - Imola (modified to remove chicanes)
12 - Turkish Grand Prix - Istanbul Park

Special Event - European Grand Slam - Moscow Raceway / Night

13 - Qatar Grand Prix - Losail / Night
14 - Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Island
15 - Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir
16 - Indian Grand Prix - Greater Noida

Special Event - Arabian Grand Slam - Dubai Autodrome

17 - Australian Grand Prix - Albert Park
18 - Singaporean Grand Prix - Marina Bay / Night
19 - Malaysian Grand Prix - Sepang
20 - South Korean Grand Prix - Jeonam

Special Event - Pacific Grand Slam - Suzuka

In addition to this, each of the four races before a Grand Slam is treated a sits own mini-championship, with everyone being awarded weight penalties based on their finising position; this is reset for the next block of events.

LukeB · Post by **LukeB** » 21 Jun 2009, 13:52

If FOTA really want to give the fans what they want they'll surely bend to popular demand and give Vanuatu the race it so clearly deserves.

tristan1117 · Post by **tristan1117** » 23 Jun 2009, 00:15

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/06/22/f ... more-21884

Rumor mill is churning today, saw this article on F1 Fanatic and then read it. And then I cheered. And then I frowned when Spa wasn't allowed in. But Laustizring and a Helsinki GP! Adelaide making a comeback! On another note, they tried to please the fans.But how can you please the fans without SPA!

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 23 Jun 2009, 00:22

Don't jump the gun just yet, tristan. That list was reportedly found by a Slovakian journalist twenty-four hours after FOTA annouced they were breaking away. And given that they were still willing to negotiate with the FIA twenty four hours before that and in the midst of preparing for the race, the idea that they could have made a provsional calendar, complete with dates is absurd. And while the Tilke-dromes have gone, they've been replaced with bland-as-bathwater venues like Buenos Aries, Magny-Cours and so on. I know for a fact that Adelaide doesn't want the Grand Prix back, and Surfers' Paradise is both boring and inappropriate.

To cap it all off, Norbert Haug shot Buenos Aries down and half the circuits - Abu Dhabi, Singapore, Suzuka - are tied to Ecclestone until 2012. Most of the facilities at the proposed circutis are way out of date. I think this is just a case of someone trying to appear to have new information on a very complicated issue.

tristan1117 · Post by **tristan1117** » 23 Jun 2009, 01:03

Captain Hammer wrote:Don't jump the gun just yet, tristan. That list was reportedly found by a Slovakian journalist twenty-four hours after FOTA annouced they were breaking away. And given that they were still willing to negotiate with the FIA twenty four hours before that and in the midst of preparing for the race, the idea that they could have made a provsional calendar, complete with dates is absurd. And while the Tilke-dromes have gone, they've been replaced with bland-as-bathwater venues like Buenos Aries, Magny-Cours and so on. I know for a fact that Adelaide doesn't want the Grand Prix back, and Surfers' Paradise is both boring and inappropriate.

To cap it all off, Norbert Haug shot Buenos Aries down and half the circuits - Abu Dhabi, Singapore, Suzuka - are tied to Ecclestone until 2012. Most of the facilities at the proposed circutis are way out of date. I think this is just a case of someone trying to appear to have new information on a very complicated issue.

I think the headline title "rumored" says everything.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 23 Jun 2009, 01:49

Yeah, but people still believe rumour as gospel trust for some absurd reason. This is why the circuits won't make it:

Buenos Aries - Haug shot it down, it's outdated and it's a terrible circuit to begin with
Mexico City - has no garages, no runoff areas; A1GP had to use a tyre chicane
Jerez - is outdated as Buenos Aries and is so often used as a testing venue that it would simply be another Barcelona
Algarve - does not have Category-1 rating needed to host Formula One events (but it is close)
San Marino - also outdated, frequently complained about by the teams
Monaco - tied to Eccelstone through 2010 even if they say they'll go with FOTA
Montreal - possibly in need of a surface upgrade
Indianapolis - FOTA may not be willing to deal with Tony George again
Silverstone - Mosley's comments about a possible return in future were designed to appeal to the BRDC, who hold a by tradition
Lausitzring - has been in and out of financial troubles since its inception
Helsinki/Spa - Spa is tied to Bernie, Helsinki sounds like an attempt to appeal to Finland
Monza - tied to Bernie until 2012
Abu Dhabi - tied to Bernie until 2012
Singapore - tied to Bernie unil 2012
Suzuka - tied to Bernie until 2012
Adelaide - does not want anything more than V8s; V8s will not take a back seat to Formula One
Surfers Paradise - no garages to speak of, open-wheel racing outgrew the circuit a decade ago

Bort · Post by **Bort** » 23 Jun 2009, 04:31

Captain Hammer wrote:Buenos Aries - Haug shot it down, it's outdated and it's a terrible circuit to begin with

If they use the extended circuit from the late 1970s then it would be awesome. I love the full length track, although I don't even know if the long loop exists anymore.

Post by **Nuppiz** » 23 Jun 2009, 07:25

Captain Hammer wrote:Helsinki sounds like an attempt to appeal to Finland

This rumor was also shot down by Juha Rostedt, the vice president of AKK (the Finnish motorsports organization), who said that it's impossible for them to make a F1-suitable track for the next year, they'd need much more time for that.