Why no place for Prodrive?

[GinShaiman]

Well perhaps because last time they were granted a place they dropped out without turning a wheel. That must have mightily pissed off the teams they beat to gain entry.
I think Max and co. would probably have held that against them.

[CarlosFerreira]

Could be, maybe not. What was the base for decision? Business plan? Proven technical structure? Existing/prospective infrastructure? Finance?

Last time around, David Richards didn't show he had any of that, not sure if this time he would make it, on a short notice and with such a fallout in the economy. That's why I thought Campos would make it, they have the structure and are a proven, tried and tested team.

[Henrique]

Well perhaps because last time they were granted a place they dropped out without turning a wheel. That must have mightily pissed off the teams they beat to gain entry.
I think Max and co. would probably have held that against them.

[Captain Hammer]

This is my theory: the FIA expects at least one team to depart Formula One for reasons OTHER than the budget cap. Renault seems a likely candidate at the moment; they've experienced a downturn in sales in their road car division and ING revoking all their sponsorship money means they don't have a title sponsor. Now, these are large teams, and in the event that one of them withdraws, the likes of Prodrive and Lola are the obvious candidates to replace them. As new teams, they would be entitled to the support money from FOM in their freshman year, but they already have money because they're large organisations.

Consider this: the FIA wants a full grid of thirteen teams in 2010. They go ahead and offer places to Prodrive, Lola and US-F1. But then Renault, Toyota and BMW say enough is enough, and pull out for whatever reason. There are only ten teams on the grid again, despite the three new ones. The FIA will have a hard time finding someone who can buy up the assets of the departing teams, so the status is thoroughly quo'd. This way, however, there will still be thirteen teams, even if we have as many as five new ones on the grid.

There are other exaplantions, too. I believe Toro Rosso needs to be sold, and it could be that Prodrive have been negotiating with them.

[GinShaiman]

I like your thinking Capt. Hammer and we know that Max is more than capable of that kind of sly thinking too.

[Captain Hammer]

Actually, it's not sly at all. It's comon sense, really: you have to fill thirteen places as best you can, and you're expecting someone to leave on the basis of their Powers That Be pulling the plug.

[StoneColdSpider]

its simple...

Max picked new teams that he knew would never join FOTA
therefore blocking any rule changes for 2010 as the 3 new teams want the budget cap and so will vote agenst any changes to it....

[Captain Hammer]

Except that Max wasn't the only one who picked the teams and all fifteen applicatns would have played to the budget cap anyway. Your theory has the benefit of being completely unproveable.

[StoneColdSpider]

never let the facts get in the way of a good theory

[rffp]

Could it be that FIA did not like that Prodrive never lined up for the 2008 season?

[Faustus]

Could it be that FIA did not like that Prodrive never lined up for the 2008 season?

Extremely likely, I'd say.

[Captain Hammer]

Or they're lining Prodrive up to buy a team that leaves the sport. Someone is expected to go for reasons outside the budget cap.

You never know, the FIA might come out on Friday and say "we want fifteen teams instead of thirteen" (and without pre-qualifying).

[rffp]

..."we want fifteen teams instead of thirteen" (and without pre-qualifying).

Pre-Qualifying would occur in the case of 16 teams.

[noisebox]

Could it be that FIA did not like that Prodrive never lined up for the 2008 season?

Maybe, but they entered on the basis they would be running a customer car (a McLaren) and these were subsequently banned for 2008. They never said they would enter as a constructor so they were excluded by the FIA, they didn't just walk away.

[watka]

I can see why Campos got picked, they've got a set up already, and they are Spanish, and the FIA loves Spain with Alonso, 2 GPs etc.
Can't see why Manor got picked over Prodrive though, from the outside it seems odd to pick a team that F1 fans were only half sure existed.

[CarlosFerreira]

Am I the only one imagining Prodrive's application wasn't that good? Think about it: much as I respect him for what he's done and been involved, and for being Vatanen's ex-navigator (that took BALLS), David Richards is a business man that reminds me of, sorry for saying this, Tom Walkinshaw. He's always on the look out for an "innovative business plan", a sort of omelet-with-no-eggs. Last time around he wanted in to F1 without any infrastructure, team or whatever. In a world where the FIA sees teams completely geared up piling up on the front door to get admission, David Richards is exactly the kind of businessman you don't want to allow in.

[Captain Hammer]

Can't see why Manor got picked over Prodrive though, from the outside it seems odd to pick a team that F1 fans were only half sure existed.

Manor have had success in World Series by Renault and F3.

[rffp]

Am I the only one imagining Prodrive's application wasn't that good? Think about it: much as I respect him for what he's done and been involved, and for being Vatanen's ex-navigator (that took BALLS), David Richards is a business man that reminds me of, sorry for saying this, Tom Walkinshaw. He's always on the look out for an "innovative business plan", a sort of omelet-with-no-eggs. Last time around he wanted in to F1 without any infrastructure, team or whatever. In a world where the FIA sees teams completely geared up piling up on the front door to get admission, David Richards is exactly the kind of businessman you don't want to allow in.

Quite interesting what you brought up, and it poses some interesting questions. When Prodrive was selected for being the 12th team for the 2008 season, they were chosen out of a dozen candidates if I am not mistaken. How could FIA choose a team that had no technical package whatsoever, after all they were going to shop for their car with McLaten, and intended to participate in the F-1 championship with a car that at the minimum had its legality questionable? Williams threatened to go to court, and at that first threat, Prodrive forfeited F-1, and although Richards said it he did not want to fight a battle in court, it makes me wonder if he knew he would lose that battle due to the simple fact that it was a customer car and hence an illegal one!

[Popi_Larrauri]

Am I the only one imagining Prodrive's application wasn't that good? Think about it: much as I respect him for what he's done and been involved, and for being Vatanen's ex-navigator (that took BALLS), David Richards is a business man that reminds me of, sorry for saying this, Tom Walkinshaw. He's always on the look out for an "innovative business plan", a sort of omelet-with-no-eggs. Last time around he wanted in to F1 without any infrastructure, team or whatever. In a world where the FIA sees teams completely geared up piling up on the front door to get admission, David Richards is exactly the kind of businessman you don't want to allow in.

Quite interesting what you brought up, and it poses some interesting questions. When Prodrive was selected for being the 12th team for the 2008 season, they were chosen out of a dozen candidates if I am not mistaken. How could FIA choose a team that had no technical package whatsoever, after all they were going to shop for their car with McLaten, and intended to participate in the F-1 championship with a car that at the minimum had its legality questionable? Williams threatened to go to court, and at that first threat, Prodrive forfeited F-1, and although Richards said it he did not want to fight a battle in court, it makes me wonder if he knew he would lose that battle due to the simple fact that it was a customer car and hence an illegal one!

Well, when they applied to enter the customer saga car hadn't begun yet. But it's all the same thing. If they were chosen among many candidates... the very best they could do was to buy an year old car? Lets forget for a moment that the car was illegal because there was stolen data from Ferrari with the Stepney saga (it's almost sure that Richards didn't know it), or that, later, Customer cars were prohibited. I wonder how deep was the evaluation made by FIA to choose them among the rest if they were only capable of reaching the grid that way.

[jackanderton]

Can't see why Manor got picked over Prodrive though, from the outside it seems odd to pick a team that F1 fans were only half sure existed.

Manor have had success in World Series by Renault and F3.

Speaking of Manor, I overheard their team principal John Booth talking about setting up a team of 50/60 people in preperation for the new season. Meanwhile the car chassis itself is being developed down south away from its Yorkshire base and won't be ready until November. If that's the most optimistic prediction (and the early ones always are), then surely we should already be going down to the bookies putting money on this outfit not even making the starting grid.

I have to say, I know considerably less about these things than others, but it did send alarm bells ringing.

[Captain Hammer]

Actually, US-F1 said that they were uncertain whether their car would even make its on-track debut this year, and that was way back when the project was announced. It's not uncomon for cars to make their debut very late in the season; the first major test for the 2009 cars wasn't until November of 2008, and there was only one more test at Jerez in December before the turn of the new year. The BGP-001 didn't even appear at a test until March and look at hos successful it has been. I imagine that building an F1 car from the bottom up would be a very lengthy process, especially with the ban on in-season testing. It may well be that no-one can test until after the race in Abu Dhabi on November 1st.

[Yannick]

If Max wins out in the FIA/FOTA conflict, we might never get an official statement on why these 3 teams made it in and the others didn't. From what we do know, Lola is the team who appears to have made the most significant progress with the car so far, but they may still be lacking in some other area - who knows.
ProDrive, on the other hand, doesn't have a supplier for a customer car this time around, whereas Campos have Dallara, USF1 have some of the ovens that can bake carbon fibre in NASCARland at their disposal and Manor has Wirth. So where is the ProDrive factory? The same, actually goes for Litespeed, too.

[Nin13]

..."we want fifteen teams instead of thirteen" (and without pre-qualifying).

Pre-Qualifying would occur in the case of 16 teams.

I think FIA is compromised to have 13 teams maximum. Mainly because tracks like Monaco, Hungaroring, etc. do not have extra pit garages and space for motorhomes of more than 13 teams. Hence that's the limit.
Its not a problem no modern track with lots of space.

[rffp]

I think FIA is compromised to have 13 teams maximum. Mainly because tracks like Monaco, Hungaroring, etc. do not have extra pit garages and space for motorhomes of more than 13 teams. Hence that's the limit.
Its not a problem no modern track with lots of space.

From 1988 to 1992, 30 cars raced in those two circuits. At least 15 teams were present, depending of course on how many had only 1 car for the qualifying sessions. Anyway, I don't believe that FIA will extend the entries beyond 26 cars.

[Popi_Larrauri]

I think FIA is compromised to have 13 teams maximum. Mainly because tracks like Monaco, Hungaroring, etc. do not have extra pit garages and space for motorhomes of more than 13 teams. Hence that's the limit.
Its not a problem no modern track with lots of space.

From 1988 to 1992, 30 cars raced in those two circuits. At least 15 teams were present, depending of course on how many had only 1 car for the qualifying sessions. Anyway, I don't believe that FIA will extend the entries beyond 26 cars.

Maybe, difference is that today motorhomes can't be compared with the ones used in 1988-1990. And it's not merely a matter of marketing, those days did not precised the amount of equipmet they need today. I'm just thinking about Ferrari mainframes, to begin with, and I guess the other teams have them as well or something alike. Maybe restrictions in the amount of equipment in terms of Square-metters or tonnage, would be interesting if you want to field more than 13 teams. But on the other hand paddocks must be already prepared to host no more than 13 different boxes.

[Irisado]

I rather tend to agree with Captain Hammer's theory, but the fact that Prodrive didn't honour (in the eyes of the FIA) its 2008 commitment to join the grid may well have counted against it too, so I suspect it was a combination of both of these factors which led to their entry being turned down.

Pre-qualifying won't happen, since, in spite of the fact that some circuits can accommodate more than 26 cars, although I'm not sure if the newer circuits were constructed with that many pit boxes in mind (that would be a great excuse for the FIA to dump a lot of these unsuccessful new venues though, and bring back some more traditional tracks, but it won't happen unfortunately), the limit has been set at thirteen teams.