Your Reject of the Race - Monaco

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 23 May 2009, 13:32

As promised!

Lewis Hamilton - arse-first into the wall at Mirabeau. Need I say more?
BMW-Sauber - the roller-coaster continues.
Robert Kubica - four engines in six races. Count 'em.
Toyota - Back in the USSR. Again.
Nelson Piquet - let's face it: even if he took pole, hs name would be mentioned in this thread sooner or later ...
Red Bull's diffuer - don't believe the hype!
Giancarlo Fisichella - why?
Ferrari - for acting like the most spoilt children in the history of soilt children.
Sex, Lies and Geometric Shapes - that's the ongoing FIA-FOTA war to you.
Everybody who isn't Jenson Button - seriously, JB shows up, does five minutes' work and goes back to bed leaving everyone scratching their heads.

Continue.

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 23 May 2009, 13:36

Toyota!
First row, two races ago, and now at the very end!

LukeB · Post by **LukeB** » 23 May 2009, 13:40

Bah, if you're going to start these threads you can't also take all the best nominations in the first post before anyone else has a chance.

Valrys · Post by **Valrys** » 23 May 2009, 15:14

LukeB wrote:Bah, if you're going to start these threads you can't also take all the best nominations in the first post before anyone else has a chance.

Well, now, instead of having to think of our own rejects, we have argue about his list, and it's a good list at that - I'd personally vote for Toyota, for obvious reasons

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 23 May 2009, 17:36

I wouldn't start with listing reject of the race candidates before the race has even started...

Bleu · Post by **Bleu** » 23 May 2009, 19:29

I think Schumacher got his in Monaco 2006 for qualifying alone. He didn't do anything reject-worthy during the race IMO.

LukeB · Post by **LukeB** » 23 May 2009, 22:49

It's an excellent list, and that's the problem. The good Captain has already hit all the obvious targets.
Just to be clear, I have no problem with Captain Hammer himself or his position as "guy-who-starts-ROTR-threads", because god knows if we didn't have that semi-official position we'd be drowned in ROTR threads being started increasingly early by people trying to beat others to the punch. But c'mon, it's one thing to cite whos caught your eye as being noteable failures so far, and another to list nearly half the field as well as several of the most noteable off-track shenanigans.

I think the purpose of these threads is to throw up observations and snide remarks about who or what is failing that weekend. It's not a quasi-voting system where we're presented a list of nominations and pick one(s) to agree with but an informal discussion, and I think presenting a list like Cap' did straight off the bat limits discussion to "I agree with [Nomination X]".

But hey, I'm not setting myself up as some kind or arbiter on these matters. If this is the way we're going to do it then fine I'll go along with it.

tristan1117 · Post by **tristan1117** » 23 May 2009, 23:01

FIA stewards. They screwed up the GP2 race results by penalizing everybody who straightlines a chicane. FIsi's times were disallowed in Q2 and any race shenanigans will make them a shoo-in ROTR. Just my opinion.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 24 May 2009, 05:24

Overnight, I think Toyota have made very strong cases for themselves as being Rejects:
- Trulli and Glock qualifed dead-last and one-better; the only reason they're not locking the back row out is because of Hamilton's gearbox change.
- Trulli's error in his final flying lap impeded Glock enough to kill the German's flying lap as well.
- Despite the mistake, Toyota protested against Alonso for blocking them, but even without the Spaniard, they still wouldn't have qualified well (sour grapes, much?)
- Now that the FIA has released fuel weights, the Toyotas are both exceptionally heavy. In fact, at 95.8kg, Timo Glock is heavier han anyone has been all year. Look for them at the back.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 24 May 2009, 06:03

Captain Hammer wrote:- Now that the FIA has released fuel weights, the Toyotas are both exceptionally heavy. In fact, at 95.8kg, Timo Glock is heavier han anyone has been all year. Look for them at the back.

Probably just using the extra weight to BMW-proof their cars :lol:

Popi_Larrauri · Post by **Popi_Larrauri** » 24 May 2009, 07:02

Well, the race has not started yet, but ROTR has Toyota written all over it.

Valrys · Post by **Valrys** » 24 May 2009, 13:53

Kazuki Nakajima-If you're ever going to stuff it in the barriers, don't do it on the last lap. Gains extra points for the tv cameras catching him pulling a silly face
The Top 8-C'mon guys, surely ONE of you could've had a mechanical failure and let Force India score a point
BMW- At least both Toyotas made it to the end of the race.......
Nelson Piquest- If he'd been tooling around at the back like usual, he wouldn't have been taken off by Buemi

Bleu · Post by **Bleu** » 24 May 2009, 13:56

Sebastian Vettel - in the lightest car doesn't get pole, struggles in the beginning and then bins it to the wall

Jenson Button - driving his car into wrong place after the finish

Henrique · Post by **Henrique** » 24 May 2009, 14:14

My reject is Kazuki Nakajima - Last lap means "focus".

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 24 May 2009, 14:23

Valrys wrote:Nelson Piquest- If he'd been tooling around at the back like usual, he wouldn't have been taken off by Buemi

Interviewed by Brazilian TV, Nelsinho lashed out at Buemi and complained about letting rookies into F-1!
What about letting incompetent drivers linger for too long in F-1 after disppointing rookie year?

For a complete lack of self-criticism, Piquet Jr gets my ROTR!

Jack O Malley · Post by **Jack O Malley** » 24 May 2009, 14:25

BMW and Toyota.
Nelsinho was very lucky to be hit by Buemi, I think he would have hit the wall by himself at some point later.

midgrid · Post by **midgrid** » 24 May 2009, 14:35

McLaren - possibly the team's most competitive race of the season, and both drivers stick it in the wall.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 24 May 2009, 14:40

ROTR- BMW and Toyota.

Might as well flush that money down the crapper!

Life w12 · Post by **Life w12** » 24 May 2009, 14:42

I'd say Piquet and Nakajima, just because of their stereotypical performances into the armco

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 24 May 2009, 14:49

I think Buemi would be a good bet, also BMW Sauber and Toyota, obviously. Piquet did indeed make some childish comments, but we're so used to that by now that it isn't funny anymore.

By the way, are these threads supposed to be about who you think Jamie&Enoch are going to put as ROTR, or about who you think should be the ROTR?

noshpit · Post by **noshpit** » 24 May 2009, 14:59

the only reason rbrs diffuser did not do much was because it doesnt have much effect in monaco. also there cars wheel base is wrong for monaco (i think it is 2 long) so they were bound to not do that well.

rffp · Post by **rffp** » 24 May 2009, 15:11

Check this:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75586

Another possible two candidates for ROTR:
- The Brawn seatbelts for getting loose;
- Barrichello for coming up with another excuse for getting his butt kicked by Button!

Henrique · Post by **Henrique** » 24 May 2009, 15:13

rffp wrote:Interviewed by Brazilian TV, Nelsinho lashed out at Buemi and complained about letting rookies into F-1!
What about letting incompetent drivers linger for too long in F-1 after disappointing rookie year?

For a complete lack of self-criticism, Piquet Jr gets my ROTR!

Indeed. http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2009/05/24/piquet-slams-young-buemi-s-error/
And you hit the nail on the head with your question. Piquet is the very last person in the world who can criticize rookies.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 24 May 2009, 15:15

The obvious choice is Sebastian Vettel. Yes, Buemi's mistake was bigger. Yes, Nakajima's error was embarrassing. And yes, Barrichello's facial fuzz is hideous. But when Vettel binned it down at Ste. Devote, he threw away critical championsip points which is only going to make the job of catching Jenson Button even harder.

Nin13 · Post by **Nin13** » 24 May 2009, 17:25

It has to be Lewis Hamilton not just because he made costly mistake in Q1 but because he was so confident of getting top 3 starter and being on podium. Even drivers like Jenson Button were not speaking of their chance like Lewis Hamilton did.

RejectSteve · Post by **RejectSteve** » 24 May 2009, 20:46

Henrique wrote:
rffp wrote:Interviewed by Brazilian TV, Nelsinho lashed out at Buemi and complained about letting rookies into F-1!
What about letting incompetent drivers linger for too long in F-1 after disappointing rookie year?

For a complete lack of self-criticism, Piquet Jr gets my ROTR!

Indeed. http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2009/05/24/piquet-slams-young-buemi-s-error/
And you hit the nail on the head with your question. Piquet is the very last person in the world who can criticize rookies.

So suddenly he's the voice of experience, talent, and driving manners? Piquet is not even half as good as Buemi or Noda. He barely has more experience in F1 than either of them (admittedly, Noda got screwed by Simtek). Get real, Nelson.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 24 May 2009, 20:54

I'm going with the 'Everybody who isn't Jenson Button' option here. If this carries on for another race or two, then that's the championship done and dusted.

Ross Prawn · Post by **Ross Prawn** » 24 May 2009, 22:37

Jenson Button. For not driving to the podium to collect his trophy!

or

Hitting the wall is such a common Monaco hazard that I think nominating Hamilton, Heiki, or Vettel is unfair.

Piquet made a strong case for himself by shooting his mouth off, but it seems a bit harsh also to penalise him for one of the few races where he didn't crash of his own accord.

BMW would be a worthy ROTR, for general patheticness, and wasting Kubica's talents.

But my ROTR would be the 2010 regulations, rejected by all the teams in a letter given to Max as the race started. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75610

minrdi · Post by **minrdi** » 24 May 2009, 22:45

Although he won't win it, I have to nominate 2009's "Spinner of the Year" - Nelsinho - for having the temerity to use the rookie tag on Buemi for causing the crash. Shades of A1GP and his clash with Hideki Noda at the Lauzitsring, anyone?

Toyota had an embarrassing fall from grace, and are worthwhile candidates for ROTR, for sure.
BMW Sauber is continuining its humiliating run and are looking siller by the race for ditching their '08 efforts to concentrate on developing what has turned out (Melbourne aside, in Kubica's hands) to be an absolute turkey of a car.
Lewis and Heikki should also be candidates. Given their current form, Monaco looked one of the few weekends where the skills of the drivers could compensate for the inadequacies of the car, and both drivers stuff their wagons into the armco and screw themselves out of a major points haul.
Kazuki's last-lap crash at Mirebeau was also laughable and very reject-worthy.

LukeB · Post by **LukeB** » 24 May 2009, 22:45

Recently Piquets looked so hunted and unhappy that I've felt a little guilty at taking joy in his failure and in a case like this where it's not his fault I even felt some sympathy for the guy. So thank you Nelson for reminding me why you're an ass, someone who is nigh certain to be given the boot before the end of just their second season has no right to lord it over the newbies. Especially not a newbie that is actually making a go of his F1 opputunity.

Failing that, Kubicas (lack of) performance was amusingly terrible. What the hell has happened to BMW??

sailer 99 · Post by **sailer 99** » 25 May 2009, 00:57

It has to be barichello for reliving his past.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 25 May 2009, 01:14

sailer 99 wrote:It has to be barichello for reliving his past.

Except that there are no team orders at Brawn. Everyone is simply saying that because Button had a strategy change at the eleventh hour in Barcelona. Last night, Barrichello had problems with a loose seatbelt; it kept coming undone in the second stint, forcing him to compeltely changehis driving style so that he didn't move about too much in the cockpit. Brawn have said that there are no team orders, Barrichello has said that if there were he would not be driving for the team, and Ross Brawn himself has assured Barrichello that he won't be forced to play second fiddle. Barrichello's lack of wins is easily explained away by the fact that Jenson Button is a superior driver. Now that the Briton finally has a good car - becaue the car makes the driver just as much as the driver makes the car - he's proving his worth.

Though I think t has to be said that if he wins the World Championship, Jamie and Enoch should qualify for one of the Reject of the Year placings for giving the award to him twice. Nothing against you guys, but you completey wrote him off last year.

tristan1117 · Post by **tristan1117** » 25 May 2009, 01:32

This will be a very hard pick Jamie and Enoch. There are about 20 people just standing up and saying me, pick me! The political mess leading up to the race, Toyota and BMW (they reminded me of Forti today), Hamilton (the supposed Monaco Master hit the wall), Vettel, Piquet Jr. (surely opening his sizeable mouth is worth a ROTR, but we're used to it), Kauzuki "Crash"ajima, that idiotic 4-off rule, no Safety Cars, and Buemi's brain fade. Excited to see who will be the lucky winner.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 25 May 2009, 09:17

It's not easy this time around. Lewis Hamilton made a strong point by spinning into the armco at Mirabeau on Saturday in qualifying, whilst Heikki Kovalainen lost it during the race going over the bump at the swimming pool section, crashing as well.
It clearly wasn't the weekend of the McLarens. They've made a strong campaign for the award.
BMW Sauber unfortunately continued in qualifying with where they left off in Bahrain, and would be a candidate for their sheer lack of pace, too, if only Toyota hadn't done even worse. Toyota, one of the "diffuser three" at the back of the grid?! Shame! Scandal! They were looking like winning races sooner or later this season and now this! But ... both of their cars finished the race.

The surprise appearance of the weekend was the one by Nelsinho Piquet, who albeit crashing into the barrier in Ste Devote during the race, did not do so because of his own error. Instead, he was run in the back by Sebastien Buemi, who despite his crash, had the upper hand over his more experienced team mate Sebastien Bourdais yet again all weekend. Bourdais evidently took the chance and finished in the points in 8th place.

Kazuki Nakajima's off in the final lap must be worrysome for Williams. Rosberg, though, made the bravest overtaking move of the weekend on Massa in the Tabac Curve early in the race. Still, it didn't lead to a podium for him. Overall, I'd say Williams are still too far away to get the award, even though they still couldn't benefit from having been one of the "diffuser three", which somehow, they never did even once.

The championship hunt of quasi-runner-up Sebastian Vettel received a major blow by his troubles on the option tires and his subsequent shunt into the barriers later when on primes. This is not the way to win the drivers championship. It's a performance that's hard to ignore when it comes to this weekend's award.

Taking into account the pre-race expectations kind of rules out handing the award to BMW and McLaren, giving Buemi the benefit of the doubt because of a rookie error rules out him. That leaves Toyota and Vettel. Based solely on my expectations before the race, the award should go to Vettel and his strategist this time around.

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » 25 May 2009, 09:31

Give it to Piquet for blaming Buemi for "Inexperience"-reliving his A1GP days and an old F1 rejects joke there.

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 25 May 2009, 10:21

I would give Reject of the race for anyone thinking Button has miraculously become a great driver.
He is just another Mansell/Hill/Hamilton. Only winning in a car miles ahead of others. Which seems to be the national thing for British drivers.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 25 May 2009, 11:49

I don't ROTR should go to Toyota... although they have always done poorly at Monaco (It's almost a tradition now :lol:

)
ROTR: McLaren Mercedes: Fast when it didn't matter but screwed up when it did.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 25 May 2009, 13:11

DonTirri wrote:I would give Reject of the race for anyone thinking Button has miraculously become a great driver.
He is just another Mansell/Hill/Hamilton. Only winning in a car miles ahead of others. Which seems to be the national thing for British drivers.

That implies that Barrichello is the better drver of the two. If that's the case, please explain to me this: why has Button won five races while Barrichello has won none? There is, of course, the persistent half-theory-half-rumour that team orders are coming into play - based on Button's eleventh-hour strategy change in Barcelona and the fact that Ross Brawn was Ferrari's tactician at the A1-Ring in 2002 - but radio transmssions between Jock Clear and Barrichello made it pretty obvous that Barrichello simply couldn't find the pace.

So let's use Occam's Razor to sort this one out: Occam's Razor is a law that basically states whichever of two competing theories requires less supesnion of disbelief - less stretch of the imagination - is probably more likely to be true.

On the one hand, you have this: Button is simply a good driver. Either he has somehow become good in the three months between Brazil 2008 and Melbourne 2009 (which requires a hell of a stretch to accept), or he has always been good but has simply had bad cars (and there is the occasional flash of brilliance: in 2004, he was the highest-scoring non-Ferrari driver).

On the other hand: Brawn are engaging in tactics to fix the outcome of the race beteen their two drivers either by issuing team orders to Barrichello, or by sabotaging him. If this is the case and Button is the lesser driver, why are Brawn backing him when it would be far easier to back Barrichello as he is the superior driver based on raw talent? And furthermore, why are they keeping their own people in the dark? If Brawn were indeed sabotaging Barrichello in Barcelona, why was his own pit crew telling him to push harder? If Brawn is keeping his own people in the dark, there's a mile-wide streak of dis-unity among them, and if your team is divded in such a complex way, you simply cannot pull together and win one Grand Prix, much less five of them. Not even Flavio Briatore is stupid enough to do that.

The complexity and assumptions needed to make the argument that Button is the lesser driver and his succeses are only a result of his team and his car are so convulted essetially disproves the theory after the first sentence, much less the first paragraph. Jenson Button is a good driver; Renault's Pat Symonds has said it since 2007 when he claimed that if Button were driving the McLaren, he'd be just as competitive as Lewis Hamilton.

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 25 May 2009, 13:32

I never said Barrichello was a good driver. He is crap, but Button is being heralded as the best driver on the grid an even compared to M. Schumacher due to his early season dominance.

While all he has is the best car on the grid. I am not comparing him to Barry, but to the rest of the field.

He is just another Brit who will win the title due to having the best car on the grid and a teamie who is weaker than him.
As a driver he is still mediocre at best.

Because in my mind results in a great car mean shite, but results in a weak car are what make a driver. And just like Mansell in 92, Hill in 96 and Hamilton in 08, Button is going to the title simply because his car is superior to others.

His results in the BAR's and Honda show that when in a less-than-best car, he is unable to consistently compete for wins.

Just like Mansell in Lotus, pre-86 Williams, Ferrari and McLaren. Just like Hill in Arrows and Jordan. Just like Hamilton this season.

When you look at the truly good drivers, you will see great performances in less than stellar cars. Alonso last year with a godafwul renault. Räikkönen in 03 with a car that was basically two years old. Schumi in 92 and 93 Benettons and 96 Ferrari. Häkkinen in 99 amd 01, Senna in 91, 92 and 93 Maccas, Prost in 86 With an outdated Mp4/2 and the list goes on.

Surprisingly the only non-brit driver to take the title solely due to cars dominance in the last 20 years is Villeneuve.

So yeah, stop heralding Button as a great driver, he is a mediocre driver in the best car of the grid.

Python · Post by **Python** » 25 May 2009, 13:39

DonTirri wrote:I never said Barrichello was a good driver. He is crap, but Button is being heralded as the best driver on the grid an even compared to M. Schumacher due to his early season dominance.

While all he has is the best car on the grid. I am not comparing him to Barry, but to the rest of the field.

He is just another Brit who will win the title due to having the best car on the grid and a teamie who is weaker than him.
As a driver he is still mediocre at best.

Because in my mind results in a great car mean shite, but results in a weak car are what make a driver. And just like Mansell in 92, Hill in 96 and Hamilton in 08, Button is going to the title simply because his car is superior to others.

His results in the BAR's and Honda show that when in a less-than-best car, he is unable to consistently compete for wins.

Just like Mansell in Lotus, pre-86 Williams, Ferrari and McLaren. Just like Hill in Arrows and Jordan. Just like Hamilton this season.

When you look at the truly good drivers, you will see great performances in less than stellar cars. Alonso last year with a godafwul renault. Räikkönen in 03 with a car that was basically two years old. Schumi in 92 and 93 Benettons and 96 Ferrari. Häkkinen in 99 amd 01, Senna in 91, 92 and 93 Maccas, Prost in 86 With an outdated Mp4/2 and the list goes on.

Surprisingly the only non-brit driver to take the title solely due to cars dominance in the last 20 years is Villeneuve.

So yeah, stop heralding Button as a great driver, he is a mediocre driver in the best car of the grid.

I'm going to agree with you there Don. Button is only doing good because he has the best car out there. If he was in a 2nd rate car, well he would be mid pack most of the time.