2010 Turkish Grand Prix Discussion

Post by **mario** » 20 May 2010, 16:29

I know that it is a little early to be opening this thread, but it does feed into this thread.
As we know, Schumacher recently received a new chassis after damage to the old one, and now it is the turn of Vettel to receive a new chassis, due to an (unspecified) problem http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83744
So, both Red Bull drivers have had one new chassis apiece, as Webber switched from chassis No.2 to No. 4 after Bahrein. Not that this should hold them back - I suspect that they are going to be extremely competitive this year, particularly through Turn 8, with the downforce advantage that they have.
I wonder if switching to a new chassis will help Vettel to check Webber's run of form at the moment? Webber will be feeling pretty good, since he has had the measure of Vettel comfortably in the last two races. On the other hand Vettel doesn't take it particularly well when Mark beats him (we saw how hard he was pushing at Silverstone last year, after the drubbing Mark gave him at home), so I expect that he will be pushing hard to beat him.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 20 May 2010, 16:42

Obviously Red Bull are going to get pole again. A decent Hermann Tilke track, but will the race actually be any good? Although Constantinople Park, err, I mean Istanbul park is Massa's strongest track, I can't see him taking the fight to Webber and Vettel. Also, If he's going to beat Alonso at all, he has to at this track.

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 20 May 2010, 18:55

I can't see anything other than a Red Bull walkover unless they have reliability issues. I'm favouring Vettel to be quicker for most of the weekend because he's good here, but he might be rattled by Webber's two dominant victories and I can see him making a mistake when it really counts.

As for the rest of the field, as good as Massa is here, I reckon that Alonso is just plainly a better driver will see him be the faster Ferrari. I'm interested to see the pace of the Mercedes. Rosberg reckoned he could've been on the front row and did set fastest laps when he got clear air at Monaco, but other than that I'm beginning to suspect that the WG01 is not only slower than the Red Bull, Ferrari and McLaren, but mightn't actually be a million miles ahead of the R30, and only the fact that they have two top drivers to Renault's one is keeping them ahead. Hope I'm wrong obviously, because I'm a Schumacher fan.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 20 May 2010, 19:16

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olr2cDrFkCo

Post by **mario** » 20 May 2010, 23:54

shinji wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olr2cDrFkCo

Right on cue there - although I'd like to see if someone could work in a reference to Byzantium in a song...

Enforcer wrote:I can't see anything other than a Red Bull walkover unless they have reliability issues. I'm favouring Vettel to be quicker for most of the weekend because he's good here, but he might be rattled by Webber's two dominant victories and I can see him making a mistake when it really counts.

As for the rest of the field, as good as Massa is here, I reckon that Alonso is just plainly a better driver will see him be the faster Ferrari. I'm interested to see the pace of the Mercedes. Rosberg reckoned he could've been on the front row and did set fastest laps when he got clear air at Monaco, but other than that I'm beginning to suspect that the WG01 is not only slower than the Red Bull, Ferrari and McLaren, but mightn't actually be a million miles ahead of the R30, and only the fact that they have two top drivers to Renault's one is keeping them ahead. Hope I'm wrong obviously, because I'm a Schumacher fan.

It should be a Red Bull track here, given their advantage in the high speed corners. Mercedes should be a bit closer to Red Bull, Ferrari and Mclaren here, since they are bringing a few new parts (along with the return of the long wheelbase car), and they have to be closer in this race, otherwise it is rumoured that Brawn will be under a lot of pressure to scrap this seasons car in favour of the W02 for 2011.However, Renault are bringing yet more parts (as part of their continuous upgrade program), and given that Mercedes have been lacking on single lap pace in qualifying, they could well be having to look backwards at Renault instead of forwards towards Ferrari and Mclaren (since Red Bull are far too far ahead).

I agree that Massa has to put in a strong weekend here - this has traditionally been one of his stronger tracks, and if he wants to prove that he can compete with Alonso, his comeback has to start here. If he can beat Alonso here, it would be a good step in the right direction - and an even bigger one if he can put the Mclaren's between him and Alonso (especially in terms of points). However, Alonso does seem to like the F10, and he will be determined to put in a strong performance after that accident in Monaco probably cost him a shot at the podium at least.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 21 May 2010, 07:27

I was reading about the updates the teams had brought for Spain, and it was telling: Ferrari were working on their F-Duct, McLaren were tweaking the wings all-round and Red Bull changed every panel of the car, except the wings. The RB6 is, itself, a giant downforce-producing device. Seriously, everyone else won't even get a look-in in Istambul.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 21 May 2010, 08:06

If we get another win for a Renault engine in Istanbul, could we have this French version in the podcast?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFZzuoqq ... re=related

(AND it's rejectful...)

Post by **mario** » 21 May 2010, 11:36

CarlosFerreira wrote:I was reading about the updates the teams had brought for Spain, and it was telling: Ferrari were working on their F-Duct, McLaren were tweaking the wings all-round and Red Bull changed every panel of the car, except the wings. The RB6 is, itself, a giant downforce-producing device. Seriously, everyone else won't even get a look-in in Istambul.

True, there does seem to be an agreement that the body of the RB6 is quite good at generating downforce (and I think that Red Bull did also tweak some of the cascade elements on the front wing as well in Barcelona). They did lose out a bit at Monaco, where Mclaren successfully protested against a few elements in their diffuser, although Horner claimed that the car went even faster after they took the additional bits off http://motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=368834&FS=F1 - something I doubt, but at the very least they have enough performance in hand even without those elements).

The only catch with the RB6 is that although the body itself is quite effective at producing downforce, so they have a considerable advantage in the corners, it seems that it comes at the price of drag - in the speed traps on the straights, the RB6 is often one of the slowest (and it isn't the engine, whatever Horner says, since the R30 is often one of the quickest). That said, the current track line up favours higher downforce over top speed - apart from Canada, Spa and Monza, most of the tracks are fairly high downforce (Silverstone might require a bit more downforce this year, thanks to the track changes - although they reckon that it will now be even faster, and have the second highest average speed after Monza).

We know that Ferrari are planning on bringing an updated F-duct to Turkey, which should help them on the run from Turn 10 down the the final chicane; moreover, being more refined, it should prevent the loss of downforce that they had at Spain, or at least reduce the effects (where even without Alonso activating the system, they ended up losing some rear downforce, which was part of the reason they were slower in the middle sector). Even so, Red Bull is likely to leave them in their wake, and the only hope that any of the other teams are likely to have will be for mechanical problems, rain or driver error (or possibly high tyre wear for Red Bull, which is said to be one of their weaker areas - Vettel was suffering from a lot of graining at Monaco on the soft tyre).
It'll be interesting to see how Mclaren deal with Turn 8 this year, especially for Hamilton - they have had problems there before, due to the way he takes the corner, and we know that he is determined to push the car hard, even if the team doesn't want him to (although he has subsequently apologised to the team for his outburst at Monaco). Will Mclaren have to put Hamilton on a two-stop strategy again? They might have to consider it, although with the stiffer tyres this year, the harder tyre might be able to withstand Hamilton's driving style and last for a long stint.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 21 May 2010, 12:28

Gosh, why they still persever with the F-Duct? It's only useful at Monza and Spa. They should put more effort on the aero package; otherwise, it'll be unlikely they'll catch the 'Bulls.

bighaydo · Post by **bighaydo** » 21 May 2010, 13:14

Not sure about who'll come out on top... I think with the RB6 in it's current state it'd have to be one of the RBR boys - in the space of one week they dominated both an aero track and one that favours mech grip...

Vettel will want to come out all guns blazing, but I can imagine some toys being jettisoned if Webber gets him again... and on last year's form on this circuit Webber did make him look a little silly strategy wise. I thought it was a nice change of pace seeing young Seb looking a little PO'd after the last couple of races - he was a bit too happy in front of a partisan crowd in Australia when he pipped the local boy off pole.

This is traditonally Massa's track and he needs some solid form to stop the rumours about his seat... and not just the form of being in front of his teammate and holding him up like we've seen a couple of times already this year.

coops · Post by **coops** » 21 May 2010, 13:23

bighaydo wrote:Not sure about who'll come out on top...

Nevermind all that, how cool is your avatar!?

bighaydo · Post by **bighaydo** » 21 May 2010, 13:30

coops wrote:
bighaydo wrote:Not sure about who'll come out on top...

Nevermind all that, how cool is your avatar!?

bahahaha! thanks! i lifted it from a graphic that was in the Red Bulletin or something?

I wonder whatever happened to the Red Bulletin btw?

Post by **mario** » 21 May 2010, 14:14

bighaydo wrote:
coops wrote:
bighaydo wrote:Not sure about who'll come out on top...

Nevermind all that, how cool is your avatar!?

bahahaha! thanks! i lifted it from a graphic that was in the Red Bulletin or something?

I wonder whatever happened to the Red Bulletin btw?

I think that you can still find it (I saw a copy of it floating around in the central library at uni a few weeks ago, featuring a big picture of Vettel on the front of it), but Red Bull have cut down on the circulation because there simply weren't enough readers (it did, after all, mainly target the paddock, and although it was popular, it is a limited audience).

Actually, to follow on from that, James Allen does point out an interesting aspect about Monaco. He makes a cheeky point that Vettel can't have had that many problems with his chassis if he could set the fastest lap of the race (by 0.126s in case you are interested), and looking at the data from the FIA, his lap times were actually pretty good (and towards the end of the race he was slowly catching Webber - and Webber wasn't easing up all that much, as he was still doing 1m16's). It interesting that Allen suggests that it may be more of a confidence boost for Vettel instead of an actual serious defect (since Red Bull are still holding onto Vettel's original chassis (No.3), and will bring it along to Turkey).
[Edit to include link to article http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/05/m ... han-never/ ]

Phoenix wrote:Gosh, why they still persever with the F-Duct? It's only useful at Monza and Spa. They should put more effort on the aero package; otherwise, it'll be unlikely they'll catch the 'Bulls.

You can probably add Canada to that list as well, since it'll be pretty useful on the back straight there.
However, since they already run relatively small wings there, the rear wing will already be producing less drag anyway, so the potential gain is probably smaller compared so somewhere like, say, Barcelona (where Ferrari were probably gaining at least 2-3kph, and possibly as much as 5kph). As for looking at the rest of the aero package, they are still working on that as well, but they seem to think that the F-duct could offer them a way of gaining a few tenths more cheaply in comparison to going over the car panel by panel (where the potential gains are probably smaller, and more expensive to unlock).

RejectSteve · Post by **RejectSteve** » 21 May 2010, 19:58

mario wrote:I think that you can still find it (I saw a copy of it floating around in the central library at uni a few weeks ago, featuring a big picture of Vettel on the front of it), but Red Bull have cut down on the circulation because there simply weren't enough readers (it did, after all, mainly target the paddock, and although it was popular, it is a limited audience).

Possibly due to how they distributed it. At Indianapolis, the issues were handed out by Red Bull girls around the souvenir area (and presumably in the paddock and possibly Paddock Club areas). If you were going to spend your day at the far end of the circuit, you wouldn't even have known about it.

I have my grubby mitts on the 2007 USGP Saturday edition. 8-)

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 21 May 2010, 20:00

I've read the James Allen article. May the damage in Vettel's chassis be an excuse to justify why Webber got the upper hand over their groomed kid? I think that so far Red Bull haven't shown any kind of bias towards one driver or another.

Alianora La Canta · Post by **Alianora La Canta** » 21 May 2010, 22:43

mario wrote:
bighaydo wrote:
coops wrote:Not sure about who'll come out on top...
Nevermind all that, how cool is your avatar!?

bahahaha! thanks! i lifted it from a graphic that was in the Red Bulletin or something?

I wonder whatever happened to the Red Bulletin btw?

I think that you can still find it (I saw a copy of it floating around in the central library at uni a few weeks ago, featuring a big picture of Vettel on the front of it), but Red Bull have cut down on the circulation because there simply weren't enough readers (it did, after all, mainly target the paddock, and although it was popular, it is a limited audience).

To expand further on this, the Red Bulletin is no longer exclusively about F1, but covers all Red Bull's promotional activities. My local library takes a copy, though I'm not sure if anybody reads it...

I did have a folder full of old Red Bulletin PDFs on my hard drive; I really should see if it's still there...

Matt Classic · Post by **Matt Classic** » 22 May 2010, 10:28

The Red Bulletin comes free with the The Independent on the first Tuesday each month in the UK. It's quite a good read but does focus on Red Bull in general

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 23 May 2010, 20:58

mario wrote:
shinji wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olr2cDrFkCo

Right on cue there - although I'd like to see if someone could work in a reference to Byzantium in a song..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgCggULv8KU

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 23 May 2010, 21:02

& then there's this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrxoEHvs ... re=related

Post by **mario** » 24 May 2010, 18:50

eagleash wrote:
mario wrote:
shinji wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olr2cDrFkCo

Right on cue there - although I'd like to see if someone could work in a reference to Byzantium in a song..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgCggULv8KU

Very nice work there - and I bet that if they slipped that into the podcast it would throw a few of the listeners who were expecting the old classic...

On a more relevant note, there is some bad news for Williams. Now, they had brought their latest parts to Monaco (presumably hoping to capitalise on a track where they have traditionally been stronger), but with both Rubens and Hulkenberg having accidents, they have been racing against time to produce more new parts for Turkey. Moreover, they have a few new upgrades, including a change to the brake ducts, a few mechanical changes and an upgraded engine from Cosworth (who have been modifying the power output to make the engines more drivable).
Although they have done a very good job, they have just run short of time, and can't produce the updated front wing that they were planning to bring - as a result, they are having to revert to the old specification, as used up to and including Barcelona, with the updated front wing coming at Montreal. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83855

LionZoo · Post by **LionZoo** » 24 May 2010, 23:11

mario wrote:You can probably add Canada to that list as well, since it'll be pretty useful on the back straight there.
However, since they already run relatively small wings there, the rear wing will already be producing less drag anyway, so the potential gain is probably smaller compared so somewhere like, say, Barcelona (where Ferrari were probably gaining at least 2-3kph, and possibly as much as 5kph). As for looking at the rest of the aero package, they are still working on that as well, but they seem to think that the F-duct could offer them a way of gaining a few tenths more cheaply in comparison to going over the car panel by panel (where the potential gains are probably smaller, and more expensive to unlock).

Well the f-duct is probably perfect for a dual nature track like Canada which has tight sections that have a need for relatively high downforce, but a long straight that forces teams to run medium downforce. It's not that Canada itself is a medium downforce track across it's entire length, it's more a track with need for high downforce that has a straight that needs a Monza teatray. The f-duct allows the team to run high downforce, but then stall the wing on the straight.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 27 May 2010, 11:06

Herbert to advise stewards in Istanbul

Not that it's really newsworthy mind you

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 27 May 2010, 17:00

Wizzie wrote:Herbert to advise stewards in Istanbul

Not that it's really newsworthy mind you

Especially considering that Schumacher and Barrichello are probably the only racers who raced against him who are still active. (Going off the top of my head, no time to look.)

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 27 May 2010, 17:49

thehemogoblin wrote:
Wizzie wrote:Herbert to advise stewards in Istanbul

Not that it's really newsworthy mind you

Especially considering that Schumacher and Barrichello are probably the only racers who raced against him who are still active. (Going off the top of my head, no time to look.)

De La Rosa, Button and Trulli did as well.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 27 May 2010, 17:53

redbulljack14 wrote:
thehemogoblin wrote:
Wizzie wrote:Herbert to advise stewards in Istanbul

Not that it's really newsworthy mind you

Especially considering that Schumacher and Barrichello are probably the only racers who raced against him who are still active. (Going off the top of my head, no time to look.)

De La Rosa, Button and Trulli did as well.

Ah. Pardon me... The only racers who matter.

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 27 May 2010, 17:54

thehemogoblin wrote:
redbulljack14 wrote:
De La Rosa, Button and Trulli did as well.

Ah. Pardon me... The only racers who matter.

*ZING*

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 27 May 2010, 17:58

thehemogoblin wrote:
redbulljack14 wrote:
thehemogoblin wrote:Especially considering that Schumacher and Barrichello are probably the only racers who raced against him who are still active. (Going off the top of my head, no time to look.)

De La Rosa, Button and Trulli did as well.

Ah. Pardon me... The only racers who matter.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 27 May 2010, 18:02

thehemogoblin wrote:
redbulljack14 wrote:
thehemogoblin wrote:Especially considering that Schumacher and Barrichello are probably the only racers who raced against him who are still active. (Going off the top of my head, no time to look.)

De La Rosa, Button and Trulli did as well.

Ah. Pardon me... The only racers who matter.

Button started his career at Williams, so he does matter.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 27 May 2010, 18:04

redbulljack14 wrote:
Button started his career at Williams, so he does matter.

No doubt, but then he grew some facial hair, which sort of balances it, in my book at least.

Post by **mario** » 27 May 2010, 19:05

CarlosFerreira wrote:
redbulljack14 wrote:
Button started his career at Williams, so he does matter.

No doubt, but then he grew some facial hair, which sort of balances it, in my book at least.

But Rubens wasn't exactly the most clean shaven of men last year, was he?

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 27 May 2010, 19:07

mario wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
redbulljack14 wrote:
Button started his career at Williams, so he does matter.

No doubt, but then he grew some facial hair, which sort of balances it, in my book at least.

But Rubens wasn't exactly the most clean shaven of men last year, was he?

No, he wasn't. Glad he went into Williams: Sgt. Head makes sure everyone's clean shaven.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 27 May 2010, 19:36

CarlosFerreira wrote:
No, he wasn't. Glad he went into Williams: Sgt. Head makes sure everyone's clean shaven.

Times change I suppose.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 27 May 2010, 19:52

That was the 80's, a time when porn actors and F1 drivers had to wear a 'tache.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 27 May 2010, 20:15

thehemogoblin wrote:
redbulljack14 wrote:De La Rosa, Button and Trulli did as well.

Ah. Pardon me... The only racers who matter.

Whole Spanish Press is beginning to growl...

CarlosFerreira wrote:That was the 80's, a time when porn actors and F1 drivers had to wear a 'tache.

Senna never needed a 'tache to be a legend. Neither Piquet needed it to be an arrogant dickhead.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 27 May 2010, 20:19

Button?

Oh yeah.....current champion.

Post by **mario** » 27 May 2010, 22:05

To drag the thread kicking and screaming back onto topic, we're finally getting to find out what the new updates are for Turkey. Renault are bringing yet another front wing, whilst Mclaren are bringing a slightly different rear wing. Ferrari have modified their F-duct to make it easier to use (and are also running a special paint scheme to celebrate 800 races in F1), and Force India are bringing their version of an F-duct along as well.
Finally, it seems that Red Bull might be toying with introducing an F-duct - it seems that they are modifying their air intake with an additional channel in the top of the air box. Alternatively, it may be an air intake for a blown rear wing (which is quite a different proposition, as that aims to increase downforce instead of reducing drag).

Currently, Renault are still bringing their new front wing out, so annoyingly there aren't any photos of that, and nobody seems to have got a shot of the JVM3 yet, but here are a few shots of the rest.
Special Ferrari livery

Updated Mclaren rear wing (with modified slot for F-duct)

Modified air intake for Red Bull (you can see the splitter just by the mechanics head)

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 28 May 2010, 07:57

What's the difference between a blown rear wing and an F-duct? I don't understand.

RAK · Post by **RAK** » 28 May 2010, 08:45

Chandhok beats the Virgins in the first free practice, despite problems earlier in the session. Yamamoto almost a second behind, very much in 24th position.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 28 May 2010, 08:47

thehemogoblin wrote:What's the difference between a blown rear wing and an F-duct? I don't understand.

Family nature of this Forum precludes the obvious answer.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 28 May 2010, 10:09

Kovalainen the hero of FP1: less than half a second down on the 'saurus, less than a second down on both Williamses.