Grand Prix Rejects

GroupLotusRenault wrote:

f1-gast wrote: Minardi had the Ferrari engines in 1999 ?

Then Minardi would of had many points finishes and a certain Luca badour would not be a reject

What if Martin Brundle did beat his Benetton team-mate Schumacher i to the win in Spa?

On the topic of Spa (I don't think is already here)...

1991 Belgian Grand Prix. Jordan F1 team. Everyone talks about Schumacher's debut, but what's often left out is that with three laps left, De Cesaris' engine expired because Jordan failed to get a memo from Ford saying the new spec HB engine they'd recieved was more oil hungry than the previous one. At the time he was second, and Senna, who was leading, had a very sick gearbox and eventually got across the line just 2 seconds ahead of his team mate who had been behind De Cesaris.

What if Jordan had got the memo and De Cesaris' engine had remained healthy and he'd passed Senna and won? Would Andrea finally have been taken seriously as an F1 driver? Would Jordan have still had that horrible moneyless, unreliable 1992?

Bleu wrote:

GroupLotusRenault wrote:What if Martin Brundle did beat his Benetton team-mate Schumacher i to the win in Spa?

Brundle was one of the drivers heavily speculated for Williams for 1993. Win would have strenghen his chances there I think. So he and Hill could have swapped places compared to real life for 1993.

I think it's more likely Bennetton would've decided against bringing Patrese in and kept Brundle instead.

Brundle would probably have never overhauled Schumacher as #1 in the team, but would've kept things very respectable. Come 1994, they'd have probably won the constructor's with Michael and Martin driving* and been even more dominant in 1995. Brundle probably hangs on until 1996, takes over as team leader but by then the chance to be Champion is gone since Schumacher's taken all his pals with him to Ferrari.

*This assumes, based on Brundle's ability to stay relatively close to Schumacher in 1992 that he'd have been better able to handle the idiosyncratic B194 built around Schumacher than Verstappen, Letho or Herbert. Said assumption may not be accurate.

What if Tommy Byrne hadn't been had a personality clash with Ron Dennis?

Actually, I saw Tommy Byrne posting on a forum about the time his book came out (can't feckin' find it now), and he reckons that if he hadn't fallen out with Theodore at the end of 1982, he might have had a chance to impress when they absorbed the Ensign team. Even though they weren't especially quick and ran out of money before the end of the season, they were quicker than in '82, and he reckons the guys brought over from Ensign were a far more professional than the Theodore staff and he'd have at least been able to make enough of a fist of it to qualify regularly and catch the eye of a better team.

What if Verstappen had choosen for Mclaren in 1993, to be the test driver, we all know what happend !!!
He had on paper he would be the sec. driver for Mclaren in 95 and 96....

What if Jan Lammers had been choosen insteat of Mansell with the Lotus test in 78 ?
What if Jan Lammers didn't broke his thumb in 84 ?
What if Huub Rothengatter was 0,5 sec faster in 1979 with his mclaren test ?
What if Verstappen didn't got blisters at his hands in canada ?
What if Eddie Jordan wasn't a bitch and let Verstappen drive for his team in 2004 ?
What if Christian (kw)Albers was forbidden to drive in any f1 car ! (ok probably to hard)

2010

What if HRT had payed Dallara every promised penny, and perhaps more?
What if HRT had the same budget as Virgin?
What if HRT had the same budget as Team Fernandes?
What if Karun had payed HRT every promised penny?
What if Adrian Campos had stayed onboard?

2011

What if HRT's new car was brand new? I mean, totally new, nothing derived from the F110?
What if HRT arrived in Australia with the full F111, with no cannibalization of the F110?
What if HRT signed Giorgio Mondini?
What if HRT had the same budget as Virgin?
What if HRT still had Dallara as a partner?
What if HRT had Ferrari engines? (as rumoured in 2010)

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:2010

What if HRT had payed Dallara every promised penny, and perhaps more?
What if HRT had the same budget as Virgin?
What if HRT had the same budget as Team Fernandes?
What if Karun had payed HRT every promised penny?
What if Adrian Campos had stayed onboard?

2011

What if HRT's new car was brand new? I mean, totally new, nothing derived from the F110?
What if HRT arrived in Australia with the full F111, with no cannibalization of the F110?
What if HRT signed Giorgio Mondini?
What if HRT had the same budget as Virgin?
What if HRT still had Dallara as a partner?
What if HRT had Ferrari engines? (as rumoured in 2010)

What if HRT manage to qualify for a race?

dr-baker wrote:What if the HRTs had been allowed to compete in the Australian GP after their double DNQ?

After failing appeal? Go Hans Heyer style - and quickly DQ'ed. (Through parc ferme security will automatically prevent this)

East Londoner wrote:I have some reject-related What If moments here.

Let's go with them.

East Londoner wrote:What if...Panis's engine finally let go, allowing the Forti of Pedro Diniz into 6th place and scoring a point at the 1995 Australian Grand Prix. What would the future hold for Forti?

Sold to Shannon. Bankruptcy.

East Londoner wrote:What if...Andrea Moda had been allowed to use the old Coloni chassis in 1992.

They would have run out of money to run a second car. Poor Perry would have been left down with wet tyres. Bringing the sport into disrepute. Bankruptcy.

East Londoner wrote:What if...Gregor Foitek didn't crash at the 1990 Monaco Grand Prix, scoring a point for Onyx which would have unrejectifyed them? What would the future hold for them?

Bankruptcy indeed.

East Londoner wrote:What if...Life actually made it onto the grid?

We are talking about real life, not videogames. Anyway: bankruptcy.

East Londoner wrote:What if...Simtek continued after the 1995 Monaco Grand Prix.

Bankruptcy after the 1995 Canadian Grand Prix. Unless it had been my long-stopped Pacific story.

East Londoner wrote:What if...Pacific had managed to get superlicenses for Katsumi Yamamoto and Oliver Gavin?

Murray would have been able to say: "And what is Yamamoto doing?" before his (Murray's) retirement.

And bankruptcy, of course.

Do you happen to work in the banking sector?

P_Friesacher wrote:Do you happen to work in the banking sector?

f1-gast wrote:What if Eddie Jordan wasn't a bitch and let Verstappen drive for his team in 2004 ?

Well Verstappen would have driven for Jordan in 2004... except he didn't fit in the goddamn car.

What if Ferrari did buy out Minardi in 2000 ?

Enforcer wrote:

GroupLotusRenault wrote:

f1-gast wrote: Minardi had the Ferrari engines in 1999 ?

Then Minardi would of had many points finishes and a certain Luca badour would not be a reject

What if Martin Brundle did beat his Benetton team-mate Schumacher i to the win in Spa?

On the topic of Spa (I don't think is already here)...

1991 Belgian Grand Prix. Jordan F1 team. Everyone talks about Schumacher's debut, but what's often left out is that with three laps left, De Cesaris' engine expired because Jordan failed to get a memo from Ford saying the new spec HB engine they'd recieved was more oil hungry than the previous one. At the time he was second, and Senna, who was leading, had a very sick gearbox and eventually got across the line just 2 seconds ahead of his team mate who had been behind De Cesaris.

What if Jordan had got the memo and De Cesaris' engine had remained healthy and he'd passed Senna and won? Would Andrea finally have been taken seriously as an F1 driver? Would Jordan have still had that horrible moneyless, unreliable 1992?

Bleu wrote:

GroupLotusRenault wrote:What if Martin Brundle did beat his Benetton team-mate Schumacher i to the win in Spa?

Brundle was one of the drivers heavily speculated for Williams for 1993. Win would have strenghen his chances there I think. So he and Hill could have swapped places compared to real life for 1993.

I think it's more likely Bennetton would've decided against bringing Patrese in and kept Brundle instead.

Brundle would probably have never overhauled Schumacher as #1 in the team, but would've kept things very respectable. Come 1994, they'd have probably won the constructor's with Michael and Martin driving* and been even more dominant in 1995. Brundle probably hangs on until 1996, takes over as team leader but by then the chance to be Champion is gone since Schumacher's taken all his pals with him to Ferrari.

*This assumes, based on Brundle's ability to stay relatively close to Schumacher in 1992 that he'd have been better able to handle the idiosyncratic B194 built around Schumacher than Verstappen, Letho or Herbert. Said assumption may not be accurate.

My understanding is that Patrese was already confirmed as Brundle's replacement at Benetton prior to Spa 1992 (I recall Murray Walker & James Hunt talking about it in the race commentary). They basically said that Patrese knew he had no chance of retaining his Williams seat so he quickly moved to confirm a Benetton seat for 1993. Flavio Briatore...who knew very little on motor-racing at the time... has always since regretted this decision & at least once a year used to apologise to directly Brundle, about not keeping him on for 1993.

Don't forget, Brundle also nearly won in Canada 1992 but for mechical failure. Perhaps achieving a win at either race, may have reversed the decision to let Brundle go, or secured Brundle's return to Benetton for 1994. What I think would have been more likely is Williams might have been more interested in Brundle?

Bleu, do you have any more info on the Brundle & Williams speculation for 1993 & perhaps why they didn't agree? As I've always wondered why, after the "Senna situation", exactly why Williams didn't take Brundle for 1993.

P_Friesacher wrote:Do you happen to work in the banking sector?

Not, but it could happen in the future actually

f1-gast wrote:What if Ferrari did buy out Minardi in 2000 ?

Not going to happen IMO.

FMecha wrote:

f1-gast wrote:What if Ferrari did buy out Minardi in 2000 ?

Not going to happen IMO.

That's why this is the What If? thread.

FMecha wrote:

f1-gast wrote:What if Ferrari did buy out Minardi in 2000 ?

Not going to happen IMO.

That's the spirit!

Nigel Mansell blaming his retirement at Monaco 1984 on a white line.

What if...the 1999 BAR hadn't been such a shitbox. (reliability wise, not pace)
What if...Schumacher didn't plough into the back of Coulthard at Belgium in 1998.
What if...Jean Alesi had seen his pitboard and come in at the 1997 Australian Grand Prix.
What if...Schumacher didn't slide into the wall at the 1996 Monaco Grand Prix.

East Londoner wrote:What if...the 1999 BAR hadn't been such a shitbox. (reliability wise, not pace)

Minardi and Arrows wouldn't have scored any points in 1999.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

FMecha wrote:

f1-gast wrote:What if Ferrari did buy out Minardi in 2000 ?

Not going to happen IMO.

That's why this is the What If? thread.

True, although there has to be enough of a grain of truth in the notion that what is being suggested could have happened in real life. Were Ferrari ever linked with Minardi in 2000, and why would they want to buy a team like Minardi in the first place? They had a strong technical partnership with Sauber, so why would they want a junior team when they effectively had one in Sauber?

East Londoner wrote:What if...the 1999 BAR hadn't been such a shitbox. (reliability wise, not pace)
What if...Schumacher didn't plough into the back of Coulthard at Belgium in 1998.
What if...Jean Alesi had seen his pitboard and come in at the 1997 Australian Grand Prix.
What if...Schumacher didn't slide into the wall at the 1996 Monaco Grand Prix.

1) BAR could potentially have scored a reasonable number of points if the car had been more reliable, since they were able to qualify reasonably well in a number of races, and were capable of running with the midfield pack (and sometimes better, as was the case in Spain). At the very least, they would probably have garnered more respect than they did in 1999, along with a fair bit more cash from FOM, if they'd been able to finish in the middle of the standings (which is feasible - Prost GP, in 7th place, scored 9 points that season, which might have been beatable by BAR).

2) Schumacher would probably have gone on to win fairly comfortably, with the Jordan drivers in the next two places.

3) The B197 was fairly competitive, and Alesi was running quite well at the time, so, assuming that he had no additional problems, a strong points finish or potentially even podium might have been on the cards.

4) The conditions that year were difficult to judge, so Schumacher could well have crashed out of the race as the race progressed. The F310 was not the most reliable car in 1996 either - Schumacher had four DNF's and a DNS due to mechanical problems that year, so he could still have broken down even if he had kept it out of the walls. Assuming that the car held onto the end of the race, though, you suspect that Schumacher could have won the race - and given the points standings that season, it would have made pretty much no difference to the final standings of the teams or drivers.

I suppose that the real classic question is what would have happened to Schumacher's career if Mercedes had insisted that he drove for their customer team - i.e. Sauber - when he entered Formula 1. I wonder how different things would have been if Schumacher went to McLaren when the Mercedes engines went there, and if we'd have seen Benetton stay as a top running team for longer, instead of seeing the team gutted when Schumacher took most of the team with him to Ferrari.

East Londoner wrote:What if...Jean Alesi had seen his pitboard and come in at the 1997 Australian Grand Prix.

I was watching the race on the net the other day, and if I remember correctly, they were showing the Benetton pitcrew frantically waving boards, and Murray said that they were radioing him in a desperate attempt to bring him in.

"Oh, Jean, you best look worried!"

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:

East Londoner wrote:What if...Jean Alesi had seen his pitboard and come in at the 1997 Australian Grand Prix.

I was watching the race on the net the other day, and if I remember correctly, they were showing the Benetton pitcrew frantically waving boards, and Murray said that they were radioing him in a desperate attempt to bring him in.

"Oh, Jean, you best look worried!"

"And you can tell from the body language of the Benetton mechanics that they are Ab-So-Lutely FURIOUS!" "Oh Jean, you may well look a bit worried. You've got a major problem, sunshine"

Classic Murray action there. Always cracks me up.

East Londoner wrote:

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:

East Londoner wrote:What if...Jean Alesi had seen his pitboard and come in at the 1997 Australian Grand Prix.

I was watching the race on the net the other day, and if I remember correctly, they were showing the Benetton pitcrew frantically waving boards, and Murray said that they were radioing him in a desperate attempt to bring him in.

"Oh, Jean, you best look worried!"

"And you can tell from the body language of the Benetton mechanics that they are Ab-So-Lutely FURIOUS!" "Oh Jean, you may well look a bit worried. You've got a major problem, sunshine"

Classic Murray action there. Always cracks me up.

IMHO classic Alesi aswell. Being a massive Jean Alesi fan...I would honestly say that F1 is poorer for the lack of Alesi antics these days (although we do have Koboashi...apologies for the spelling i'm slightly drunk & can't be bother to look it up). I mean one race Alesi would put in a stunning performance, & the next race he would run out of fuel or stall in the pits. Great character & I still miss him... along with Murray Walker.

What if Alesi had remained at jordan for 2002.

& what if Murray carried on commentating in 2002

ibsey wrote:IMHO classic Alesi aswell. Being a massive Jean Alesi fan...I would honestly say that F1 is poorer for the lack of Alesi antics these days (although we do have Koboashi...apologies for the spelling i'm slightly drunk & can't be bother to look it up). I mean one race Alesi would put in a stunning performance, & the next race he would run out of fuel or stall in the pits. Great character & I still miss him... along with Murray Walker.

What if Alesi had remained at jordan for 2002.

& what if Murray carried on commentating in 2002

[/quote][/quote]

Alesi wouldnt of done any better then Fisi or Sato as the car was a dog & he would call it a day.
Murry Walker dont really know.

What if USF1 got into F1 last year?

GroupLotusRenault wrote:What if USF1 got into F1 last year?

They would have made Hispania look like Red Bull.

What if Simtek completed 1995, and their car was more reliable?

What if, in 1999, Postlethwaite had not suffered from his fatal heart attack and Honda had continued development of the RA099? Could we have seen a full works Honda outfit started from scratch in 2000 or 2001?
Alternatively, what might have happened if Honda bought out Jordan Grand Prix instead of BAR?
And, last but least, what might have happened if Honda had not cancelled the development contract that BAR had with Prodrive in 2004, just at the point where the two companies were making real headway?

What if BAR were able to run the twin livery?

What if...

...Williams kept the Honda engines after 1987?
...BMW entered Formula One in 91/92 with the car that ended up being used by Andrea Moda in RL?
...Audi went to Formula One instead of Le Mans in the 2000's?
...McLaren went for a corporation with BMW instead of Mercedes in terms of Formula One (There was a BMW engine in the McLaren F1 GTR)?
...Mercedes stayed with Sauber?

mario wrote:Alternatively, what might have happened if Honda bought out Jordan Grand Prix instead of BAR?

If I remember correctly, in Eddie Jordan's book he talks about Honda being very close to buying out Jordan Grand Prix around 1998. The thing that stopped that deal from happening, was Honda didn't want EJ to have any part in running the team after the buyout. Whereas Eddie talks about not being ready to walk away from the team at that stage in his career. I think not long afterwards EJ sold a percentage of the team to an investment bank, who basically acted as sleeping partners.

mario wrote:And, last but least, what might have happened if Honda had not cancelled the development contract that BAR had with Prodrive in 2004, just at the point where the two companies were making real headway?

I've also wondered why Honda did that, & in particular why they got rid of David Richards (assuming David Richards didn't decided to leave himself). The way David turned the team around (between 2002 - 2004) was most impressive & I've always rated his other achievements very highly (i.e. WRC & his short Benetton stint in 1998). To answer your question, I think it is safe to assume that Honda, would have had a more reliable package thus been more sucessful in 2005 / 2006 than they were. To what degree, is of course debatable. My own opinion, is that they may have won a few more races, maybe finished a respectable 3rd place in the constructors championship, but I doubt they would have mounted a serious title challenge.

A couple more what if situations;

1. What if Micheal Schumacher stayed on with Ferrari as equal teammate to Kimi Rakkionen in 2007? Who would have won the title that year? More interestingly would we have seen a fall-out between the two like at Mclaren that year?

2. What if BMW had concertrated on Kubica's title push in 2008? Would BMW have been even worse in 2009 if they had?

ibsey wrote:1. What if Micheal Schumacher stayed on with Ferrari as equal teammate to Kimi Rakkionen in 2007? Who would have won the title that year? More interestingly would we have seen a fall-out between the two like at Mclaren that year?

2. What if BMW had concertrated on Kubica's title push in 2008? Would BMW have been even worse in 2009 if they had?

1. That's an interesting one. It probably would have been a close-run thing between the two but both would probably have been well ahead of McLaren. Schumacher would have won out on the basis that other than Australia Raikkonen did sod all in the first part of the season. There wouldn't have been a fallout 2007-McLaren style as Raikkonen's well above the level of intra-team mindgames.

2. For starters I wouldn't be so pissed off at BMW for giving up on Kubica's title chances. The second part depends how much they would have focused on KERS in the off-season (I remember they were boasting time and again during the off season how good their KERS system was).

What if the following driver moves happened;

Vettel drove for Force India

Hamliton drove for Williams

& Alonso drove for Torro Rosso.

How much more do you think these drivers would achieve compare to their teams existing drivers? (i.e. could Hamilton turn Williams into a regular podium finisher within say...1 year?). Furthermore who do you think would do better in a mid field team? (i.e Alonso has got "midfield" experience, but at 31 years old? does he have the motivation to build up a team again?). Your thoughts would be most interesting.

ibsey wrote:(i.e Alonso has got "midfield" experience, but at 31 years old? does he have the motivation to build up a team again?)

Give him a break. He isn't 30 until the end of July...

Kimi Räikkönen and Jenson Button are both 31, though.

Ferrarist wrote:What if...

...Williams kept the Honda engines after 1987?

If we could have had Prost and Senna in McLaren-Hondas against Mansell and Piquet in Williams-Hondas all together in the same season, just WOW. No helping teammates there I feel!!

(Yes, I know that would never have been possible as they'd have had to have put Satoru Nakajima in one of those seats - most likely it would have been Piquet and Nakajima at Williams, and Mansell went off to Ferrari a year early).

James1978 wrote:

Ferrarist wrote:What if...

...Williams kept the Honda engines after 1987?

If we could have had Prost and Senna in McLaren-Hondas against Mansell and Piquet in Williams-Hondas all together in the same season, just WOW. No helping teammates there I feel!!

(Yes, I know that would never have been possible as they'd have had to have put Satoru Nakajima in one of those seats - most likely it would have been Piquet and Nakajima at Williams, and Mansell went off to Ferrari a year early).

...So it is possible that Nakajima could have been a race winner!

P.s. You got to love the way the Japanese commentator's say Nak...a...JIMA!!!

So just image what they would be like, if he won a race.

What if, there was no free pratice sessions at all? Instead we just had qualifying (in its current format) & the race.

Do you reckon the racing would be better as a result, as the drivers wouldn't have had the opportunity to fine tuned their car...possibly leading to more mistakes / unpredicibility?

Furthermore, would we see more of a difference between drivers, as they stuggle with cars they don't really know?

Discuss.

ibsey wrote:What if, there was no free pratice sessions at all? Instead we just had qualifying (in its current format) & the race.

Do you reckon the racing would be better as a result, as the drivers wouldn't have had the opportunity to fine tuned their car...possibly leading to more mistakes / unpredicibility?

Furthermore, would we see more of a difference between drivers, as they stuggle with cars they don't really know?

Discuss.

It might means fewer cars qualifying more often, particularly the HRTs and possibly Virgins.

Mika Salo had been allowd to win Germany 1999

WeirdKerr wrote:Mika Salo had been allowd to win Germany 1999

He would have 1 win in the record books.

Irvine wouldn't have been in contention for as long.

Speaking of Irvine in '99 - what if Ferrari hadn't gone all Benny Hill on his pit stop in the Euro' GP?

shinji wrote:

WeirdKerr wrote:Mika Salo had been allowd to win Germany 1999

He would have 1 win in the record books.

Irvine wouldn't have been in contention for as long.

Speaking of Irvine in '99 - what if Ferrari hadn't gone all Benny Hill on his pit stop in the Euro' GP?

Then Murray Walker wouldn't have invented the word 'malmisorganization', and my current signature would be quite different!

In all seriousness, this cock-up cost Irvine the title that year, as I remember that Hakkinen pitted for wets when it started to rain, only for the rain to stop almost immediatly after he left the pits, putting him way out of contention at that point in the race (He finished 4th, did he?). Seeing as Irvine lost the title by two points, and lost half a minute with that pit stop, and barring any problems, he could have probably won the race or scored several points, which would have given him the title that year.

Here's an interesting one again involving the 1999 European Grand Prix. What if Frentzen's Jordan hadn't conked out after he left the pits? What effect would that have had on the race and the title?