Grand Prix Rejects

Nuppiz wrote:I guess Volkswagen won't be buying any F1 teams soon.

I do love the idea of some Exec going to the board and saying "Listen jungs, I know we've alot going on right now, but what about that F1 idea I had......?"

In case any of you were holding out hope...

CoopsII wrote:

Nuppiz wrote:I guess Volkswagen won't be buying any F1 teams soon.

I do love the idea of some Exec going to the board and saying "Listen jungs, I know we've alot going on right now, but what about that F1 idea I had......?"

True, the timing is definitely not right. But as most journos are starting to look away, they could do with an amazing publicity stunt by announcing that they will join both F1 and NASCAR next year. A few claps, some hurrah's and all is forgiven in the most of the world and the US respectively.

DanielPT wrote:But as most journos are starting to look away, they could do with an amazing publicity stunt by announcing that they will join both F1 and NASCAR next year. A few claps, some hurrah's and all is forgiven in the most of the world and the US respectively.

I'll have whatever he's having.

There is the small issue of the 18 billion US Dollar fine they're looking at. So far.

CoopsII wrote:

DanielPT wrote:But as most journos are starting to look away, they could do with an amazing publicity stunt by announcing that they will join both F1 and NASCAR next year. A few claps, some hurrah's and all is forgiven in the most of the world and the US respectively.

I'll have whatever he's having.

There is the small issue of the 18 billion US Dollar fine they're looking at. So far.

And 7 billion dollars being spent to service all affected cars. Not to mention the loss in sales, as they've now stopped selling TDI cars in the US and their reputation throughout the world has been severely tarnished. Potentially their total losses can get so high that the amount of money lost could run a top F1 team for 30 years.

Just musing. I wonder if the prevarication over Jenson Button is because Alonso is walking away and they need a quality driver to lead the team next year so are trying to tempt Button to stay?

IceG wrote:Just musing. I wonder if the prevarication over Jenson Button is because Alonso is walking away and they need a quality driver to lead the team next year so are trying to tempt Button to stay?

I think if Alonso was leaving F1 we'd know by now. There are no other decent seats available so he has nothing to gain by playing coy and secretive.

Nuppiz wrote:

CoopsII wrote:

DanielPT wrote:But as most journos are starting to look away, they could do with an amazing publicity stunt by announcing that they will join both F1 and NASCAR next year. A few claps, some hurrah's and all is forgiven in the most of the world and the US respectively.

I'll have whatever he's having.

There is the small issue of the 18 billion US Dollar fine they're looking at. So far.

And 7 billion dollars being spent to service all affected cars. Not to mention the loss in sales, as they've now stopped selling TDI cars in the US and their reputation throughout the world has been severely tarnished. Potentially their total losses can get so high that the amount of money lost could run a top F1 team for 30 years.

I am willing to bet that things won't go that extreme. Not to mention that, if it reaches somewhere close to those values, the German Government will most probably step in since VW is to big to fail.

Also, when I said all was forgiven, I meant from the consumer point of view not from a government one. And some sideways stuff like a positive stunt at just the right time could do wonders to VW image. But maybe this view of mine comes from living in a country where people have such a thick skin when it comes to corruption and fraud. One thing I agree though. Diesel market is probably dead in the US. And they will have a few law cases to settle.

DPT, do you have shares in VW or something? Never mind 'Autosport or it didn't happen' this stuff is 'U.S. Environmental Protection Agency knows it happened and isnt going to let it go'.

CoopsII wrote:DPT, do you have shares in VW or something? Never mind 'Autosport or it didn't happen' this stuff is 'U.S. Environmental Protection Agency knows it happened and isnt going to let it go'.

Should've bought some when they were at 97 pounds. They are now at 110 pounds. And up until the publication of the affected engines it will probably go up some more. Yes, the US government will fine VW, probably half of the maximum fine, and they will also have to recall those affected cars (at least in the US and maybe on the UK). In the rest of the Europe it will probably stay at the owner's wishes to return the car to the factory for a fix. Perhaps it will also have some small fines here in there except in those places where they have factories that are heavily sponsored by the governments like in Portugal. It will dent some of their sales sure, specially in the US but overall but I predict, at most, to losses at about a 3/4 of that 18bn dollars. Of course I could be entirely wrong, but the future will tell that. Remember, how many tobacco companies went bankrupt when they had those huge scandals back in the nineties?

Romain Grosjean to Haas is a done deal. I am now suddenly excite that this could lead Grosjean to the Scuderia proper in 2017, to replace Raikkonen.

Shame that it looks like Gutierrez will be getting the second seat but hey, he could redeem his reputation with a solid season next year.

Romain Grosjean has signed with Haas, and Renault have bid for Lotus - interestingly, the deal has the possibility for someone to outbid Renault, which seems unlikely.

East Londoner wrote:Romain Grosjean to Haas is a done deal.

Is there any truth in the rumour that one of the conditions of Romain signing was that Haas would at least feed him at the races?

http://motorsports.nbcsports.com/2015/0 ... erns-grow/

Lotus is finished. Very late arriving freight, no PR/Hospitality center, and Bernie has to step in to feed the mechanics. Plus if the Renault deal doesn't go through by Monday, they are going into administration.

CoopsII wrote:

IceG wrote:Just musing. I wonder if the prevarication over Jenson Button is because Alonso is walking away and they need a quality driver to lead the team next year so are trying to tempt Button to stay?

I think if Alonso was leaving F1 we'd know by now. There are no other decent seats available so he has nothing to gain by playing coy and secretive.

Hmm.....now there's a vacancy at Lotus/Enstone/Renault with Grosjean moving on, Alonso might just be tempted to return "home"! It's probably a better bet for him than McLaren is right now.

But McLaren REALLY don't need to be stuck with two youngsters in the situation they're currently in, so it all seems to fit that they need Button to stay!!

Wallio wrote:http://motorsports.nbcsports.com/2015/09/25/lotus-freight-arrives-late-in-japan-as-financial-concerns-grow/

Lotus is finished. Very late arriving freight, no PR/Hospitality center, and Bernie has to step in to feed the mechanics. Plus if the Renault deal doesn't go through by Monday, they are going into administration.

At the moment, it looks like a sensible move for Grosjean to jump before being pushed, even if 2016 Haas is less competitive than 2015 Lotus (as I suspect will be the case).

James1978 wrote:

CoopsII wrote:

IceG wrote:Just musing. I wonder if the prevarication over Jenson Button is because Alonso is walking away and they need a quality driver to lead the team next year so are trying to tempt Button to stay?

I think if Alonso was leaving F1 we'd know by now. There are no other decent seats available so he has nothing to gain by playing coy and secretive.

Hmm.....now there's a vacancy at Lotus/Enstone/Renault with Grosjean moving on, Alonso might just be tempted to return "home"! It's probably a better bet for him than McLaren is right now.

Sounds like it's a home that's about to be repossessed though. Alonso may as well stay put, one under-performing team with cash-flow problems is very much like the rest.

CoopsII wrote:Sounds like it's a home that's about to be repossessed though. Alonso may as well stay put, one under-performing team with cash-flow problems is very much like the rest.

I agree - bad though things are at McLaren, you would nevertheless expect them to at least make it through to 2016, whilst we cannot be certain that will be the case with Lotus.

Wallio wrote:http://motorsports.nbcsports.com/2015/09/25/lotus-freight-arrives-late-in-japan-as-financial-concerns-grow/

Lotus is finished. Very late arriving freight, no PR/Hospitality center, and Bernie has to step in to feed the mechanics. Plus if the Renault deal doesn't go through by Monday, they are going into administration.

It's alleged that Renault have paid the HMRC costs, and should be on their way to concluding the takeover at some point; according to Rachel Brooks, a Lotus employee has suggested it's a case of when rather than if. We'll have to see.

Ataxia wrote:

Wallio wrote:http://motorsports.nbcsports.com/2015/09/25/lotus-freight-arrives-late-in-japan-as-financial-concerns-grow/

Lotus is finished. Very late arriving freight, no PR/Hospitality center, and Bernie has to step in to feed the mechanics. Plus if the Renault deal doesn't go through by Monday, they are going into administration.

It's alleged that Renault have paid the HMRC costs, and should be on their way to concluding the takeover at some point; according to Rachel Brooks, a Lotus employee has suggested it's a case of when rather than if. We'll have to see.

That would be one race off from being the second year in a row that a team goes to administration at the same race. Hopefully the team can muster enough to make it through the season...

Confident rumours about Renault from the above. I'm guessing they're confident the cold wind of emissions-gate won't be blowing their way.

Spectoremg wrote:Confident rumours about Renault from the above. I'm guessing they're confident the cold wind of emissions-gate won't be blowing their way.

Well every single manufacturer on the planet will know right this second whether they're implicated or not. What remains is how quiet those ones we don't know about yet can stay.

Maybe Red Bull could try making a "in-house" engine or even lure Chevrolet to F1?

GM hasnt even been in any credible f1 rumours since I've followed F1, and (discounting Ilmor) they don't have their own motorsport facilities that are capable of producing engines, either. I'd be less surprised if Kia came forth tomorrow and announced they'll join F1 as a completely new team than if Chevy joined f1.

giraurd wrote:GM hasnt even been in any credible f1 rumours since I've followed F1, and (discounting Ilmor) they don't have their own motorsport facilities that are capable of producing engines, either. I'd be less surprised if Kia came forth tomorrow and announced they'll join F1 as a completely new team than if Chevy joined f1.

Indeed - in fact I'm pretty sure GM have never been involved in F1 in any form.

I think GM was indirectly involved in F1 between 1991-92 with Ilmor, which was then part-owned by Chevrolet, supplying engines to Leyton House/March and Tyrrell and could Red Bull use Cosworth engines next year?

Salamander wrote:

giraurd wrote:GM hasnt even been in any credible f1 rumours since I've followed F1, and (discounting Ilmor) they don't have their own motorsport facilities that are capable of producing engines, either. I'd be less surprised if Kia came forth tomorrow and announced they'll join F1 as a completely new team than if Chevy joined f1.

Indeed - in fact I'm pretty sure GM have never been involved in F1 in any form.

Did they have any involvement in the Detroit GP? It used to go right round their headquarters.

Whiteshore wrote:Maybe Red Bull could try making a "in-house" engine or even lure Chevrolet to F1?

I'm always open to Red Bull building their own engines at this point, but they always said no.

Whiteshore wrote:Maybe Red Bull could try making a "in-house" engine or even lure Chevrolet to F1?

a.) How? b.) How?

Whiteshore wrote:...and could Red Bull use Cosworth engines next year?

and c.) How?

It's times like these that make you wish they had equalized that "World Engine" sooner, so that you could just pop an engine out of WEC and stick it in an F1 car, isn't it.

Waris wrote:It's times like these that make you wish they had equalized that "World Engine" sooner, so that you could just pop an engine out of WEC and stick it in an F1 car, isn't it.

Even if they had equalised the "World Engine" concept, it is worth noting that it wouldn't have necessarily made it simple to interchange engines between series. There would have been a certain amount of standardisation of formats, but the proposal was intended to maintain a certain amount of differences between series to tailor the performance - so you still wouldn't necessarily have been able to quickly strip an engine out of a WEC car and to stick it straight into an F1 car, for example.

Backmarker wrote:Romain Grosjean has signed with Haas, and Renault have bid for Lotus - interestingly, the deal has the possibility for someone to outbid Renault, which seems unlikely.

I am somewhat surprised that this hasn't generated more attention, because I would have said that Grosjean is a pretty strong driver for Haas to have hired. It is also interesting that Grosjean has gone for this move even with the possibility - and seemingly now the certainty - that Renault are buying into the Lotus team to make it into a full works team, which you would have thought might have offered the team a more stable long term future.

Either way, it creates a difficult situation for Manor right now - the Mercedes-Manor talks have effectively stalled because Mercedes is now unsure whether Lotus will or will not be using their engines next year.

*SILLY QUESTION ALERT*
Wait a second! So Renault are buying fully into the Enstone team which they'd fully owned only 5 years ago but then pulled out of. I don't even remember why they dropped out in the first place, but whatever the reason was, why are they suddenly buying it back now?

Rob Dylan wrote:*SILLY QUESTION ALERT*
Wait a second! So Renault are buying fully into the Enstone team which they'd fully owned only 5 years ago but then pulled out of. I don't even remember why they dropped out in the first place, but whatever the reason was, why are they suddenly buying it back now?

Back in 2009/10 they were contending with a global financial crisis, Crashgate, being regularly beaten by a customer team (Red Bull), and not having Briatore around any more (who had essentially built Renault's team). Since then, the financial market has improved, and Renault have found that if they win as an engine supplier they get very little credit, but if they lose as an engine supplier, fingers quickly get pointed their way. Mercedes are getting far more monetisable exposure from their involvement in F1 as a team owner than Renault got from powering Vettel to 4 World Championships.

mario wrote:I am somewhat surprised that this hasn't generated more attention, because I would have said that Grosjean is a pretty strong driver for Haas to have hired. It is also interesting that Grosjean has gone for this move even with the possibility - and seemingly now the certainty - that Renault are buying into the Lotus team to make it into a full works team, which you would have thought might have offered the team a more stable long term future.

And if in 2016/7 Haas trundle 2 laps behind the Marussias and Lotus/Renault move up from the field, I and Grosjean will be like
Hopefully Romain's move works.

mario wrote:It is also interesting that Grosjean has gone for this move even with the possibility - and seemingly now the certainty - that Renault are buying into the Lotus team to make it into a full works team, which you would have thought might have offered the team a more stable long term future.

Nothing is official until announced. Would you, as a driver, bet your career (because if this Renault thing doesn't work out, Grosjean could kiss his career goodbye) on a company that may or may not come in or may or may not be competitive? Or, say, would you go with the team that is officially confirmed to join F1 and seems to have at least a smart head at the top?

Let's not forget that Bernie has dangled a huge carrot by saying they'll qualify as a team for extra funds from the pot too. Be aware that if Red Bull fail to resolve their engine situation and Renault decide to stick them by not supplying engines... Two teams could end up on one year hiatus at minimum. Having a manufacturer step in would paper over some of the cracks of an 18 car field.

mario wrote:

Waris wrote:It's times like these that make you wish they had equalized that "World Engine" sooner, so that you could just pop an engine out of WEC and stick it in an F1 car, isn't it.

Even if they had equalised the "World Engine" concept, it is worth noting that it wouldn't have necessarily made it simple to interchange engines between series. There would have been a certain amount of standardisation of formats, but the proposal was intended to maintain a certain amount of differences between series to tailor the performance - so you still wouldn't necessarily have been able to quickly strip an engine out of a WEC car and to stick it straight into an F1 car, for example.

Does anyone remember what I said a while ago about a 21st Century equivalent of Formula 5000? 2-litre stock blocks, buy your engines from a local car dealer, tune and tweak them as much as you dare, whack on a turbo or six, maybe even a supercharger... we'd have none of this crazy musical chairs business, none of the uncertainty over every team bar Merc, Ferrari and (presumably) Haas, and the costs would be so low that even Forza Rossa could have come in with an engine from a Dacia Sandero and not completely embarrassed themselves. Even McLaren would be firing on all (four) cylinders and Fernando wouldn't be wailing about having a GP2 engine.

Bernie, send a cheque. I'll PM you my address.

CoopsII wrote:

IceG wrote:Just musing. I wonder if the prevarication over Jenson Button is because Alonso is walking away and they need a quality driver to lead the team next year so are trying to tempt Button to stay?

I think if Alonso was leaving F1 we'd know by now. There are no other decent seats available so he has nothing to gain by playing coy and secretive.

Alonso can gamble if Red Bull leaves F1: http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24100/ ... f1-pundits

If Red Bull get out of F1, sure Mercedes and Ferrari will put a third car to fill the field. Sure Alonso will be one of the options for Mercedes in the third car. A race winning car that the Spaniard wants so much.

No chance of third cars, not in the present financial climate. What do Ferrari and Mercedes get out of it for fielding a third car? An even bigger bill for running the team (extra personnel, equipment, organisation, etc) and for a driver who won't be as good as either team's first drivers (Hamilton, Vettel) except maybe Alonso, but why would either take him on in a third car to potentially disrupt an environment within the team that benefits both Mercedes and Ferrari? They both have two top drivers capable of podiums and victories - why upset that balance, or spend a ton of money running a kid who will inevitably add little to what they already have.

And how would the other teams feel if this third car was eligible for points? I highly doubt it would be, which is therefore even less favourable for Mercedes or Ferrari to field the extra car.

In short, won't happen unless we end up with a grid of about 10-12 cars which all being well, won't happen either.

Dj_bereta wrote:

CoopsII wrote:

IceG wrote:Just musing. I wonder if the prevarication over Jenson Button is because Alonso is walking away and they need a quality driver to lead the team next year so are trying to tempt Button to stay?

I think if Alonso was leaving F1 we'd know by now. There are no other decent seats available so he has nothing to gain by playing coy and secretive.

Alonso can gamble if Red Bull leaves F1: http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24100/ ... f1-pundits

If Red Bull get out of F1, sure Mercedes and Ferrari will put a third car to fill the field. Sure Alonso will be one of the options for Mercedes in the third car. A race winning car that the Spaniard wants so much.

Well, we have heard Ron Dennis claim that he is keen to keep Button on, a decision which may be motivated by his links with Honda at a time when the relationship between Honda and McLaren is likely to be strained.

As for Alonso, though, he is in a difficult situation - there are few teams which could afford his salary and provide him with a competitive car, such that he does not really seem to have any options. In all honesty, he probably has few options than either sticking with McLaren and hoping that Honda can make a major recovery or bailing out early and moving to another series, such as the WEC, where he could cut a competitive deal with a major manufacturer.

AndreaModa wrote:No chance of third cars, not in the present financial climate. What do Ferrari and Mercedes get out of it for fielding a third car? An even bigger bill for running the team (extra personnel, equipment, organisation, etc) and for a driver who won't be as good as either team's first drivers (Hamilton, Vettel) except maybe Alonso, but why would either take him on in a third car to potentially disrupt an environment within the team that benefits both Mercedes and Ferrari? They both have two top drivers capable of podiums and victories - why upset that balance, or spend a ton of money running a kid who will inevitably add little to what they already have.

And how would the other teams feel if this third car was eligible for points? I highly doubt it would be, which is therefore even less favourable for Mercedes or Ferrari to field the extra car.

In short, won't happen unless we end up with a grid of about 10-12 cars which all being well, won't happen either.

The whole mechanics of third cars currently seem to be very much up in the air - it kind of feels like one of those situations where most parties really seem to hope that they don't end up in a situation where they ever have to run third cars.

Now, whilst I imagine that Bernie would try to move heaven and earth to get Alonso into a third Mercedes if that were to pass - he would probably bank on a prize fight between Alonso and Hamilton really drawing in the crowds - Mercedes have always seemed rather ambivalent at best towards the idea of third cars, and seem to prefer to have more manufacturers rather than fewer.