Grand Prix Rejects

Wallio wrote:

Biscione wrote:

Wallio wrote:http://www.formula1.com/content/fom-website/en/latest/interviews/2015/9/guenther-steiner-q-a--haas-could-become-model-for-new-teams.html

Lots to pour over in that interview, and honestly, as someone who was looking forward to Haas' debut, not much is good. No American driver, and they admit they are a Ferrari "B-Team". oh well.

And it's exactly this that gives me confidence they might actually survive. Steiner is right - they had to take this approach, or the project was guaranteed to be a failure. An American driver for the sake of having an American driver would have been a double whammy.

If Haas had elected not to take this route, and go it alone from the very start, the team would be dead by 2018. At least this way they might be able to establish themselves as respectable midfielders, and give themselves a platform to build from and attempt autonomy further down the line.

The American driver thing I can get over, although dismissively saying there is "no one" is shite, Rossi is 2nd in GP2 and has won a bunch this year (or is that a bigger condemnation of GP2?), Newgarden could be had, and hell, maybe even Kurt Busch (whethr or not they should jump series is another matter, but they would). But as I said, I can get over that.

The whole not building their own car thing is what bothers me. This is F1, and since the '70s, you build your own car. Period. This will kill any popularity for them over here. People will say, oh its just Ferrari 2, why not root for the big team? And they'd be right. Ferrari, while popular over here, is not THAT popular, especially when every other racing series over here has teams build their own cars, (or aerokits).

I do find it funny that only a few short years ago, there was massive outrage and backlash everywhere (besides on here of course) against Super Aguri and Torro Rosso and Prodrive over this very thing. It was even a sticking point in the "budget-cap" war. But now its A-OK. That's odd to me.

I'll still root for them, as I have been waiting my entire life for an American F1 team (I was 1 when the other Haas folded) but I will still hold Marussia up higher, as they are doing it right.

The issue with choosing an American driver would be whether they could get a superlicence in the first place - Newgarden and Busch are, IIRC, ineligible under the current licence regulations and would remain ineligible under the proposed 2016 regulations.

The only one that stands a reasonable chance would be Rossi - however, that is dependent on him retaining 2nd place in the GP2 championship this season, and that would not occur until the end of November this year. I expect that Haas is not prepared to wait until then to confirm his line up if he can secure drivers at an earlier date - moreover, given he has stated that he will be relying on drivers with experience to help the team mature and develop, Rossi would not fit into that role.

As for constructing the car, from Haas's point of view, being able to maximise his chances of success by buying in expertise and pushing the limits on what customers can acquire makes sense from his point of view. It reduces his risks and overheads during that initial phase, when the team is at most risk of burning up its resources too quickly, at a time when he may lack in house expertise given a potential shortfall of motorsport engineers with relevant F1 experience who would also be prepared to relocate to his headquarters.

Whilst it may be disappointing in some senses, Biscione makes a valid point - ultimately, Haas seems to be trying to strike the best balance between the resources he has at his disposal and the challenge of remaining in business during that initial difficult phase of trying to simply establish the team as a presence on the grid.

In that interview Steiner is quoted as saying "we build our own car". I thought Dallara were building the car? Or are they merely supplying the design whereas Haas assemble it in their own factory?

The rest of the paddock aren't too pleased about the Haas-Ferrari connection

For instance, Bach claims that on 31 October, Haas will lay off 70 staff, all of whom will then return to work at Ferrari on 1 November.

The suggestion here is that Haas are effectively working on the aero for Ferrari's 2016 challenger. If so, this is a deviously brilliant move by the Scuderia. All of sudden, 2016 looks a lot more interesting, regarding the title fight.

Also, trust Gene Haas to go about his F1 dealings with suspicion.

I love it when F1 teams complain about other F1 teams bending rules.

Waris wrote:In that interview Steiner is quoted as saying "we build our own car". I thought Dallara were building the car? Or are they merely supplying the design whereas Haas assemble it in their own factory?

It would seem that Dallara are designing the chassis and Ferrari are undertaking the aerodynamic testing work, so Haas is undertaking relatively little design work - it effectively looks as if all Haas are doing is bolting the bits together at the end.

mario wrote:

Waris wrote:In that interview Steiner is quoted as saying "we build our own car". I thought Dallara were building the car? Or are they merely supplying the design whereas Haas assemble it in their own factory?

It would seem that Dallara are designing the chassis and Ferrari are undertaking the aerodynamic testing work, so Haas is undertaking relatively little design work - it effectively looks as if all Haas are doing is bolting the bits together at the end.

That still means Haas are building their own car. Just not designing or testing it.


"Gunther be straight up original gangsta. Ain't no sporting regulations gonna hold this dawg down. Haas F1 represent, straight outta Carolina."

Who really cares? As long as we get another new team for next year that looks like it can be fairly competitive straight out the box (read: Stewart 97) then I'm all for it. Haas is being clever as far as I'm concerned. Darrala know how to build an F1 chassis and the Ferrari connection can only be a positive thing for a new team.

If all the team has to do is bolt the bodywork together and drop the engine and gearbox in and it's ready to go (I know it's not as easy as that) then go for it. Less time, less stress, more time, more preparation.

What Haas are doing isn't exactly new either. Scuderia Italia also used Dallara chassis (although were a bit more honest in the naming of said car), but even aside from that a chassis running under the teams name would often be wholly outsourced. I actually learned from this very site('s predecessor) that the 1991 Fondmetal and 1992 Venturi Larrousse came out of the same design studio.

I'm generally against wholesale customer cars, but if a team wants to buy in what the rules allow, and outsource the rest, that still makes an extra unique car (as a whole) on the grid, and that makes me happy.

I wonder if Haas remembered what the last F1 car was that Dallara designed...



...and what a resounding success it wasn't?

dinizintheoven wrote:I wonder if Haas remembered what the last F1 car was that Dallara designed...



...and what a resounding success it wasn't?

Dallara is literally the only option if you want a top-level car without designing it yourself. There are no other mainstream 3rd-party single seater chassis constructors.

Salamander wrote:

dinizintheoven wrote:I wonder if Haas remembered what the last F1 car was that Dallara designed...



...and what a resounding success it wasn't?

Dallara is literally the only option if you want a top-level car without designing it yourself. There are no other mainstream 3rd-party single seater chassis constructors.

Sad but true.

As bad as it's been for a while in terms of single seater racing being spec, at least you had Champ Car A1GP and F3000 being Lolas, Swift doing Atlantics and the Formula Nippon for a while, Panoz briefly doing Champ Car and also that Super League thing these days its just Dallara Dallara Dallara

What about that car Perrinn wanted to build for testing, though? If that ever comes to fruition, maybe they can flog it off to a customer team who then update it a little bit and race it?

Waris wrote:What about that car Perrinn wanted to build for testing, though? If that ever comes to fruition, maybe they can flog it off to a customer team who then update it a little bit and race it?

I think they said an F1 car was their long-term goal. At the moment, the focus is on an LMP1 car.

Waris wrote:What about that car Perrinn wanted to build for testing, though? If that ever comes to fruition, maybe they can flog it off to a customer team who then update it a little bit and race it?

Unfortunately the lack of a vessel to collect secreted urine has put at end to that one. Shame though, he is a nice guy. Somehow he has found someone to buy his LMP3 cars.

MorbidelliObese wrote:

Salamander wrote:

dinizintheoven wrote:I wonder if Haas remembered what the last F1 car was that Dallara designed...



...and what a resounding success it wasn't?

Dallara is literally the only option if you want a top-level car without designing it yourself. There are no other mainstream 3rd-party single seater chassis constructors.

Sad but true.

As bad as it's been for a while in terms of single seater racing being spec, at least you had Champ Car A1GP and F3000 being Lolas, Swift doing Atlantics and the Formula Nippon for a while, Panoz briefly doing Champ Car and also that Super League thing these days its just Dallara Dallara Dallara

I thought that Swift are still engaged in Formula Nippon, though it is true that Dallara is the most dominant chassis manufacturer by far in the single seater world (and is now extending its reach in the world of sportscar manufacturing now it is one of the four exclusive manufacturers for the LMP2 class from 2017 onwards).

Faustus wrote:

Waris wrote:What about that car Perrinn wanted to build for testing, though? If that ever comes to fruition, maybe they can flog it off to a customer team who then update it a little bit and race it?

Unfortunately the lack of a vessel to collect secreted urine has put at end to that one. Shame though, he is a nice guy. Somehow he has found someone to buy his LMP3 cars.

I thought that, at the moment, the only approved and homologated chassis manufacturer for the LMP3 class is Ginetta's design, with the Ligier JS P3, Riley-Ave AR-2 and ADESS-03 still under development (Ligier being the closest to a final design and Adess the least). I know that there is one slot left for entrants hoping to secure a slot in the LMP3 class - has Perrinn managed to secure homologation rights with the ACO then? I would have thought that would have attracted some attention in the motorsport press.

mario wrote:I thought that, at the moment, the only approved and homologated chassis manufacturer for the LMP3 class is Ginetta's design, with the Ligier JS P3, Riley-Ave AR-2 and ADESS-03 still under development (Ligier being the closest to a final design and Adess the least). I know that there is one slot left for entrants hoping to secure a slot in the LMP3 class - has Perrinn managed to secure homologation rights with the ACO then? I would have thought that would have attracted some attention in the motorsport press.

Sorry to derail the thread, but the Ginetta is actually not homologated yet, as it is still under development. The Ligier was homologated a few days ago, and is scheduled to make its competition debut either at the ELMS finale at Estoril, or in VdeV a week earlier.

A Perrin LMP3 project is news to me, unless he works as a designer for one of the four known LMP3 manufacturers.

pi314159 wrote:

mario wrote:I thought that, at the moment, the only approved and homologated chassis manufacturer for the LMP3 class is Ginetta's design, with the Ligier JS P3, Riley-Ave AR-2 and ADESS-03 still under development (Ligier being the closest to a final design and Adess the least). I know that there is one slot left for entrants hoping to secure a slot in the LMP3 class - has Perrinn managed to secure homologation rights with the ACO then? I would have thought that would have attracted some attention in the motorsport press.

Sorry to derail the thread, but the Ginetta is actually not homologated yet, as it is still under development. The Ligier was homologated a few days ago, and is scheduled to make its competition debut either at the ELMS finale at Estoril, or in VdeV a week earlier.

A Perrin LMP3 project is news to me, unless he works as a designer for one of the four known LMP3 manufacturers.

I thought that the Ginetta chassis had been homologated with the ACO given that there are a handful of teams already using Ginetta's LMP3 car in the European Le Mans series - it would be strange for the ACO to allow an unhomologated car to compete.

mario wrote:

pi314159 wrote:

mario wrote:I thought that, at the moment, the only approved and homologated chassis manufacturer for the LMP3 class is Ginetta's design, with the Ligier JS P3, Riley-Ave AR-2 and ADESS-03 still under development (Ligier being the closest to a final design and Adess the least). I know that there is one slot left for entrants hoping to secure a slot in the LMP3 class - has Perrinn managed to secure homologation rights with the ACO then? I would have thought that would have attracted some attention in the motorsport press.

Sorry to derail the thread, but the Ginetta is actually not homologated yet, as it is still under development. The Ligier was homologated a few days ago, and is scheduled to make its competition debut either at the ELMS finale at Estoril, or in VdeV a week earlier.

A Perrin LMP3 project is news to me, unless he works as a designer for one of the four known LMP3 manufacturers.

I thought that the Ginetta chassis had been homologated with the ACO given that there are a handful of teams already using Ginetta's LMP3 car in the European Le Mans series - it would be strange for the ACO to allow an unhomologated car to compete.

Yeah, I also thought that it had been homologated long ago, but a recent dailysportscar.com article says otherwise.

The Ligier JS P3 was homologated at the end of August, the first and only LMP3 machine to have so far done so (The Ginetta is not yet homologated).

mario wrote:I thought that Swift are still engaged in Formula Nippon, though it is true that Dallara is the most dominant chassis manufacturer by far in the single seater world (and is now extending its reach in the world of sportscar manufacturing now it is one of the four exclusive manufacturers for the LMP2 class from 2017 onwards).

I had to look it up to be 100% sure but it looks like my feeling was correct, Formula Nippon, err sorry "Super Formula", got Dallara'd in 2014.

James Allen is suggesting that Grosjean has a move to Haas lined up for next year ... Dependant on whether Renault buy out Lotus.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/09/romain-grosjean-has-made-his-decision-on-f1-team-for-2016-heading-to-haas/

madmark1974 wrote:James Allen is suggesting that Grosjean has a move to Haas lined up for next year ... Dependant on whether Renault buy out Lotus.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/09/romain-grosjean-has-made-his-decision-on-f1-team-for-2016-heading-to-haas/

Given these news about Enstone, I reckon it will all lead to the return of the prodigal son Alonso to Renault. If not already in 2016, then in 2017.

If Renault doesn't take over Enstone, I fear for the future of the team, although they could still field some wheels for Maldonado to keep racking RotR awards until PDVSA tires of pumping money into F1.

madmark1974 wrote:James Allen is suggesting that Grosjean has a move to Haas lined up for next year ... Dependant on whether Renault buy out Lotus.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/09/romain-grosjean-has-made-his-decision-on-f1-team-for-2016-heading-to-haas/

All he said is that he has his plans for 2016 sorted, but he wouldn't say what those plans were. Allen and anyone else will no doubt speculate until everyone's sick of it or Grosjean puts us out of our misery and just tells us.

As always, I'll believe it when I see it.

Sometimes I think we're more likely to see Life back in Formula One.

Backmarker wrote:As always, I'll believe it when I see it.

Sometimes I think we're more likely to see Life back in Formula One.

For bathplug's sake. When are these people going to learn?

Backmarker wrote:As always, I'll believe it when I see it.

Sometimes I think we're more likely to see Life back in Formula One.

If it happens then. Holy Hantuchova

But if it doesn't then ehhhh

Backmarker wrote:As always, I'll believe it when I see it.

Sometimes I think we're more likely to see Life back in Formula One.

#AudiF1Confirmed

It would be ironic if the board's most hated enemy becomes its favorite team overnight......

Wallio wrote:It would be ironic if the board's most hated enemy becomes its favorite team overnight......

I wasn't aware Lewis Hamilton was going to become a team...

If they don't use Lamborghini as the brand and get sponsorship from Central Park I'm going to be quite pissed off.

Backmarker wrote:As always, I'll believe it when I see it.

Sometimes I think we're more likely to see Life back in Formula One.

Even though Winterkorn is more likely to be amenable to entering into F1 than Piech (given Piech seems to have had something of a personal vendetta with Ecclestone), I would still be extremely surprised if VW did enter F1 in 2018.

I know that Eddie Jordan has generally had a reasonably good record when it has come to calling these sorts of moves, but I'd still have thought that it wasn't in VW's long term strategic plans to make such a move. I imagine that the ACO would also be furiously working behind the scenes to try and dissuade such a move, because it would have the potential to completely destroy their efforts to build up the WEC.

AndreaModa wrote:If they don't use Lamborghini as the brand and get sponsorship from Central Park I'm going to be quite pissed off.

The Red Bull Imperium does have an Italian team in their ownership...
Sooner or later VW is going to enter. But it might as well take another 20 years before that happens.

If VW did buy Red Bull, I wonder what would happen to Toro Rosso. I'm not sure I can see VW going from having zero involvement in F1 to owning two teams, and I can't see Red Bull selling the golden goose and keeping their junior team.

Hopefully they'll give it to Giancarlo Minardi.

If Audi can't develop a proper turbo-charged engine then nobody can.

Simtek wrote:

Backmarker wrote:As always, I'll believe it when I see it.

Sometimes I think we're more likely to see Life back in Formula One.

#AudiF1Confirmed

#SkodaF1Confirmed

Salamander wrote:

Wallio wrote:It would be ironic if the board's most hated enemy becomes its favorite team overnight......

I wasn't aware Lewis Hamilton was going to become a team...

Post of the year.

Enforcer wrote:

Simtek wrote:

Backmarker wrote:As always, I'll believe it when I see it.

Sometimes I think we're more likely to see Life back in Formula One.

#AudiF1Confirmed

#SkodaF1Confirmed

#PhoenixF1Confirmed

novitopoli wrote:

Salamander wrote:

Wallio wrote:It would be ironic if the board's most hated enemy becomes its favorite team overnight......

I wasn't aware Lewis Hamilton was going to become a team...

Post of the year.

My immediate thought of "the board's most hated enemy" was Keith Collantine

Rob Dylan wrote:My immediate thought of "the board's most hated enemy" was Keith Collantine

We don't talk about Keith Collantine.

So, does that mean we can look forward to a Lotterer/Verstappen line-up in 2018? I'd be in favour of that.

(What if the engine is a dud though? )

Maldonado staying with Lotus for 2016.