Grand Prix Rejects

Don't forget Latifi is a former Renault junior

Williams could get a lot of sponsorship and attention if they put the nephew of Ayrton Senna in that Williams-Renault!

Faustus wrote:

Samster wrote:Well in other news Williams are rumoured to be ditching the one good component of their car they had going for them by switching to Renault engines.

http://insideracing.com/index.php/formu ... X4BtavJKfQ

Such a phenomenally bad idea. Still, it's probably in character with Williams' recent performance.

I'm also struggling to see how exactly such a deal might benefit Williams - whilst Renault do seem to have become more competitive this year, and their qualifying mode seems to have become quite a bit more effective, the Mercedes power unit still seems to be ahead of Renault in many areas (fuel efficiency, reliability, peak power in race trim and so forth).

Furthermore, as noted in that article, switching to a Renault engine doesn't look like a cheaper option - having Russell at the team means they are probably able to negotiate a discount and get a fairly competitive driver driving for them, whereas I'm not really sure what they gain from Renault given that Renault don't look likely to offer a similar deal.

OK, the limited number of engine suppliers in the field means that they don't have a lot of options - Ferrari probably wouldn't supply them with engines and Honda looks like it's content with working with Red Bull, so Renault probably is the only other manufacturer that would be willing to sell them engines. Still, I would have thought they would be better served sticking with Mercedes than switching to Renault, particularly given the 2020 regulations are unlikely to change things drastically.

This wrote:Apperenly it's because Williams refuse to use the whole drivetrain of Mercedes (which Racing Point does), and they're not fond of Williams stubborn independence when it makes them arguably less competitive. Renault are less picky with the teams they supply.

Fan theory: Maldonado comeback!

I suppose that it is possible, but it would seem a little odd that would become an issue now given that Williams have gone down that route for the past five years.

It does also seem a little odd as, late in 2018, it sounds as if Williams did actively discuss signing a gearbox supply deal with Mercedes for 2019. Whilst they did ultimately decide against it, Claire Williams did suggest that they might reconsider that position in the future and might sign a deal for the full transmission system. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/will ... 59/?nrt=54

Now, it is true that the departure of Stroll for Racing Point probably removed one of the stronger supporters for Williams signing a gearbox supply deal with Mercedes, but it does sound as if Williams have been softening their position and were reconsidering whether it was worthwhile sticking with their current approach of producing as much as possible in house.

All in all, I'm not really sure what benefits Williams get from switching to Renault, if any - if anything, some have suggested that it would make more sense for Williams to bite the bullet and to accept a customer gearbox design, rather than using up resources on building that system in house when it's questionable whether that really offers that many benefits these days. If anything, they've had a couple of cars in recent years where their own gearbox design proved to be more of a hindrance than a help (their 2013 car comes to mind as one such example).

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/144680/kubica-woes-cast-shadow-on-f1-return-achievement

Seeing as we're on the topic of Williams, Kubica saying that basically there'll be no mid-season updates for the team, so at this point nothing short of a miracle will get that car into the points. It's a real shame - that Kubica comeback dream was all a dream until it actually happened. I still dream he could get a point in that crapbox.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/48928467

Sorry to double-post, but McLaren are retaining Sainz and Norris.

Not surprised: both drivers are good; haven't crashed into each other; they bring home good points - hey, Norris has almost left Rejecthood! It's a good line-up, and some good news is something McLaren desperately need. I can't say they've had much since, when, 2016?

Rob Dylan wrote:McLaren are retaining Sainz and Norris.

Whither Alonso then?

IceG wrote:Whither Alonso then?

As sure a message as any that he isn't be-all-and-end-all that he thinks he is. If something like this had happened early in his career, then I think it actually would have made for an even better driver.

Rob Dylan wrote:https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/144680/kubica-woes-cast-shadow-on-f1-return-achievement

Seeing as we're on the topic of Williams, Kubica saying that basically there'll be no mid-season updates for the team, so at this point nothing short of a miracle will get that car into the points. It's a real shame - that Kubica comeback dream was all a dream until it actually happened. I still dream he could get a point in that crapbox.

There is no point whatsoever in Williams spending resources on updates. The gap between Williams and whoever happens to be in front of them that particular weekend cannot be made up during the season. Might as well invest in the car for 2020.

Faustus wrote:

Rob Dylan wrote:https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/144680/kubica-woes-cast-shadow-on-f1-return-achievement

Seeing as we're on the topic of Williams, Kubica saying that basically there'll be no mid-season updates for the team, so at this point nothing short of a miracle will get that car into the points. It's a real shame - that Kubica comeback dream was all a dream until it actually happened. I still dream he could get a point in that crapbox.

There is no point whatsoever in Williams spending resources on updates. The gap between Williams and whoever happens to be in front of them that particular weekend cannot be made up during the season. Might as well invest in the car for 2020.

Isn't that what they did at this point last year though? Invest in the car for 2019? We all know how well that worked out.

mario wrote:

Faustus wrote:

Samster wrote:Well in other news Williams are rumoured to be ditching the one good component of their car they had going for them by switching to Renault engines.

http://insideracing.com/index.php/formu ... X4BtavJKfQ

Such a phenomenally bad idea. Still, it's probably in character with Williams' recent performance.

I'm also struggling to see how exactly such a deal might benefit Williams - whilst Renault do seem to have become more competitive this year, and their qualifying mode seems to have become quite a bit more effective, the Mercedes power unit still seems to be ahead of Renault in many areas (fuel efficiency, reliability, peak power in race trim and so forth).

Furthermore, as noted in that article, switching to a Renault engine doesn't look like a cheaper option - having Russell at the team means they are probably able to negotiate a discount and get a fairly competitive driver driving for them, whereas I'm not really sure what they gain from Renault given that Renault don't look likely to offer a similar deal.

OK, the limited number of engine suppliers in the field means that they don't have a lot of options - Ferrari probably wouldn't supply them with engines and Honda looks like it's content with working with Red Bull, so Renault probably is the only other manufacturer that would be willing to sell them engines. Still, I would have thought they would be better served sticking with Mercedes than switching to Renault, particularly given the 2020 regulations are unlikely to change things drastically.

This is the obvious and worrying sign of an organization with no strategic thinking. It's change for the sake of change, in the hope that it might make a difference. Williams has done it before, between 2009 and 2014. Every season that the team changed engine supplier the results were better than the previous season (Cosworth better than Toyota, Renault better than Cosworth, Mercedes better than Renault) but to think that this will happen happen is disingenuous at best, if not utterly deluded.

Maybe Williams has accepted that it is unlikely to ever be more than a team for pay drivers and in that spirit it will get rid of Russell, who is just making Kubica look bad. Maybe with 2 pay drivers, like Kubica, Markelov, Latifi and someone else, they can all look equally bad and then everyone is happy.

Yeah, it seems like the management at Williams are certainly shifting uncomfortably. I've watched F1 for a comparatively short time compared to those of you who have been around for many decades, but it seems like in the last ten years Williams do attempt radical changes in an attempt at relevance. A bit like Ferrari, but at least Ferrari have the money to waste; Williams really don't, and I wonder if they're clutching at straws to encourage sponsors through "we're going to be great next year because of x"

Gertrand Bachot wrote:

Faustus wrote:

Rob Dylan wrote:https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/144680/kubica-woes-cast-shadow-on-f1-return-achievement

Seeing as we're on the topic of Williams, Kubica saying that basically there'll be no mid-season updates for the team, so at this point nothing short of a miracle will get that car into the points. It's a real shame - that Kubica comeback dream was all a dream until it actually happened. I still dream he could get a point in that crapbox.

There is no point whatsoever in Williams spending resources on updates. The gap between Williams and whoever happens to be in front of them that particular weekend cannot be made up during the season. Might as well invest in the car for 2020.

Isn't that what they did at this point last year though? Invest in the car for 2019? We all know how well that worked out.

I read a news article last month regarding Williams 2020 car:

https://www.racefans.net/2019/06/04/next-years-williams-unlikely-to-be-major-departure-from-current-car/

So, I guess they have disregarded 2020 as well by now, and are focusing on the 2021 package already.

Faustus wrote:This is the obvious and worrying sign of an organization with no strategic thinking. It's change for the sake of change, in the hope that it might make a difference. Williams has done it before, between 2009 and 2014. Every season that the team changed engine supplier the results were better than the previous season (Cosworth better than Toyota, Renault better than Cosworth, Mercedes better than Renault) but to think that this will happen happen is disingenuous at best, if not utterly deluded.

Maybe Williams has accepted that it is unlikely to ever be more than a team for pay drivers and in that spirit it will get rid of Russell, who is just making Kubica look bad. Maybe with 2 pay drivers, like Kubica, Markelov, Latifi and someone else, they can all look equally bad and then everyone is happy.

It is entirely possible that it is a change that the team are contemplating for the sake of a change, as you note, simply in the hope that it will change something.

The thing is, in each of those previous engine changes, there was a logic behind the decision - OK, the Toyota to Cosworth deal in 2010 was also one of necessity, since Toyota were leaving F1, but there was at least the potential for Williams to work more directly with Cosworth, and the whole process also acted as a useful stop gap whilst they looked for other partners.

The Cosworth to Renault deal was logical too, because Renault's engine was reportedly more fuel efficient, had a slightly wider usable power band and was less prone to losing power with wear (Cosworth having admitted that was an issue with the CA2010 series engine).

As we've seen in recent years, the Renault to Mercedes transition in the hybrid era was the better long term bet, not just in terms of the competitiveness of the power unit, but I believe that the Mercedes power unit started off as being one of the cheaper customer engine deals as well (though the recent cost capping has reduced that advantage).

In this case, though, it's hard to see the technical advantages for Williams to switch to Renault right now, unless there was some other factor involved (e.g. if Renault were to offer Williams significantly more technical support or formed a technical partnership). Unless there is some hidden commercial incentive, I agree with yourself and with others that it does feel like a change being proposed because they need to be seen to be doing something, not because there is a strong logic for proposing that change.

mario wrote:

Faustus wrote:This is the obvious and worrying sign of an organization with no strategic thinking. It's change for the sake of change, in the hope that it might make a difference. Williams has done it before, between 2009 and 2014. Every season that the team changed engine supplier the results were better than the previous season (Cosworth better than Toyota, Renault better than Cosworth, Mercedes better than Renault) but to think that this will happen happen is disingenuous at best, if not utterly deluded.

Maybe Williams has accepted that it is unlikely to ever be more than a team for pay drivers and in that spirit it will get rid of Russell, who is just making Kubica look bad. Maybe with 2 pay drivers, like Kubica, Markelov, Latifi and someone else, they can all look equally bad and then everyone is happy.

It is entirely possible that it is a change that the team are contemplating for the sake of a change, as you note, simply in the hope that it will change something.

The thing is, in each of those previous engine changes, there was a logic behind the decision - OK, the Toyota to Cosworth deal in 2010 was also one of necessity, since Toyota were leaving F1, but there was at least the potential for Williams to work more directly with Cosworth, and the whole process also acted as a useful stop gap whilst they looked for other partners.

The Cosworth to Renault deal was logical too, because Renault's engine was reportedly more fuel efficient, had a slightly wider usable power band and was less prone to losing power with wear (Cosworth having admitted that was an issue with the CA2010 series engine).

As we've seen in recent years, the Renault to Mercedes transition in the hybrid era was the better long term bet, not just in terms of the competitiveness of the power unit, but I believe that the Mercedes power unit started off as being one of the cheaper customer engine deals as well (though the recent cost capping has reduced that advantage).

In this case, though, it's hard to see the technical advantages for Williams to switch to Renault right now, unless there was some other factor involved (e.g. if Renault were to offer Williams significantly more technical support or formed a technical partnership). Unless there is some hidden commercial incentive, I agree with yourself and with others that it does feel like a change being proposed because they need to be seen to be doing something, not because there is a strong logic for proposing that change.

The sport these days is much more dependent on aero compared to the start of the hybrid era where engines were the deciding factor, so perhaps the change won't help or hurt Williams as it would have to make the switch in say, 2016.

Not that Williams' aero is something to be proud of... but if they can finally fix that, then they'll at least be able to battle with the midfield again.

Maybe Williams is not completely idiotic:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14472 ... ine-supply

Faustus wrote:Maybe Williams is not completely idiotic:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14472 ... ine-supply

Hmm, maybe it was a case of somebody leaking a suggestion to the press for a little bit of "negotiation by media"?

Interesting that Williams seem to be weighing up the option of signing a deal for gearboxes as well, as that was one area where some were wondering if it was worth the resources needed to produce a gearbox in house when it might be more efficient to buy one from Mercedes and reallocate those resources elsewhere.

On another note, it sounds like the sport is currently doing one of the things that it does best, which is engaging in an extended bout of navel gazing and rule changes of questionable sense.

In this particular case, it appears that the first proposal is one from Todt to reintroduce refuelling in 2021. It is also being reported that Todt has asked the FIA's staff to look at other areas:

Todt added that he had asked FIA staff to look into whether the number of driver aids in F1 could be reduced.

He said he had been told it would not be possible for a modern F1 car to be driven without power steering.

But although F1 cars do not have common road-car driver aids such as traction control and stability control, he pointed to the fact that most starts were virtually flawless and that cars cannot stall any more as examples of areas where improvements could be made.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48971037

Now, Horner has already come forth to criticise the move, stating that "My recollection of refuelling, which was part of the sport when I came into F1, was that it became just a strategic race as to how much fuel you put in at the start. You wouldn't pass any cars on track, because you would either short-fill or long-fill the car in the pit lane."

At this point, I have the slightly odd feeling of agreeing on something with Horner. It is indeed the case that refuelling tended to make for a race that might be more strategically interesting - but only if drivers were on different strategies to begin with - but it didn't exactly do much for on track action.

If just for one race, I would love to watch refuelling when mixed with DRS. Could make for both strategy and passing. In theory at least.

mario wrote:At this point, I have the slightly odd feeling of agreeing on something with Horner.

Do you feel dirty and disappointed in yourself?

Polish media have run a story that Sergio Sette Camara could take Petrobras money to Williams in 2020

Faustus wrote:

mario wrote:At this point, I have the slightly odd feeling of agreeing on something with Horner.

Do you feel dirty and disappointed in yourself?

More the sense of unease that you experience when you think something is wrong, but you can't quite put into words why.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/feature/9320/how-a-red-bullera-weakness-is-still-plaguing-vettel

Gary Anderson weighing in and beating down Vettel for the last 12 months. When he points out the examples, I realise that, yeah, Vettel is making a lot of mistakes in recent years.

Couldn't find any English-language sources, but according to Finnish media Bottas has stated in an interview for French Canal+ that he's interested in joining Ferrari if Mercedes won't extend his contract.

Of course, just being interested in the seat doesn't mean he's negotiating with them. But what if Ferrari come to their senses and ditch Vettel?

Nuppiz wrote:Couldn't find any English-language sources, but according to Finnish media Bottas has stated in an interview for French Canal+ that he's interested in joining Ferrari if Mercedes won't extend his contract.

Of course, just being interested in the seat doesn't mean he's negotiating with them. But what if Ferrari come to their senses and ditch Vettel?

To an outsider, it certainly seems like a wise move from Bottas to keep all his options open. His Mercedes seat is far from secure, and with Vettel having a bad year, I don't see harm in stirring the Ferrari pot to at least say "I'd be available if Vettel drops out". Doesn't mean it's going to happen of course, but there can't be much harm in it imo.

Nuppiz wrote:Couldn't find any English-language sources, but according to Finnish media Bottas has stated in an interview for French Canal+ that he's interested in joining Ferrari if Mercedes won't extend his contract.

Of course, just being interested in the seat doesn't mean he's negotiating with them. But what if Ferrari come to their senses and ditch Vettel?

Being interested means sweet bathplug all. I'm interested in joining Ferrari.

FullMetalJack wrote:

Nuppiz wrote:Couldn't find any English-language sources, but according to Finnish media Bottas has stated in an interview for French Canal+ that he's interested in joining Ferrari if Mercedes won't extend his contract.

Of course, just being interested in the seat doesn't mean he's negotiating with them. But what if Ferrari come to their senses and ditch Vettel?

Being interested means sweet bathplug all. I'm interested in joining Ferrari.

Exactly. It's like saying I'm interested in the female of the species...

dr-baker wrote:

FullMetalJack wrote:

Nuppiz wrote:Couldn't find any English-language sources, but according to Finnish media Bottas has stated in an interview for French Canal+ that he's interested in joining Ferrari if Mercedes won't extend his contract.

Of course, just being interested in the seat doesn't mean he's negotiating with them. But what if Ferrari come to their senses and ditch Vettel?

Being interested means sweet bathplug all. I'm interested in joining Ferrari.

Exactly. It's like saying I'm interested in the female of the species...

So you want be hired by a female human? What specific function do you seek?

This wrote:

dr-baker wrote:Exactly. It's like saying I'm interested in the female of the species...

So you want be hired by a female human? What specific function do you seek?

A job as a fully qualified nurse would be good (I register with the UK's Nursing and Midwifery Council as a Learning Disability Nurse next month, providing I pass my final 3 weeks of placement as a student nurse).

dr-baker wrote:

This wrote:

dr-baker wrote:Exactly. It's like saying I'm interested in the female of the species...

So you want be hired by a female human? What specific function do you seek?

A job as a fully qualified nurse would be good (I register with the UK's Nursing and Midwifery Council as a Learning Disability Nurse next month, providing I pass my final 3 weeks of placement as a student nurse).

Unfortunately i'm not hiring. But good luck!

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/144913/ricciardo-hit-with-10m-claim-from-exadvisor

So Ricciardo's former advisor is trying to take him to court for £10 million over the claim that when changing his contract to Renault, somewhere along the line said advisor hasn't received his money. The article has a lot of financial jargon which I'm too tired to read and understand, but it's all in the article.

A 20% cut for an agent; seems we are into football territory where agents take a huge lump of money out the sport, to spend it on....probably golf and lawyers ( what do agents spend money on?) .

Its not healthy for the sport - agents frequently have no interest in the long term health of the sport, nor its history and values .

yannicksamlad wrote:( what do agents spend money on?) .

Drugs and prostitutes.

Good bloody job, Baker. Almost there!

Rob Dylan wrote:Good bloody job, Baker. Almost there!

Thank you! Just realised that I am bringing myself into the job market and the 2020 silly season. Wonder how many nursing jobs there are in motor sport?

dr-baker wrote:

Rob Dylan wrote:Good bloody job, Baker. Almost there!

Thank you! Just realised that I am bringing myself into the job market and the 2020 silly season. Wonder how many nursing jobs there are in motor sport?

Mercedes employs a full-time nurse in Brackley but that job is taken.

Faustus wrote:

dr-baker wrote:

Rob Dylan wrote:Good bloody job, Baker. Almost there!

Thank you! Just realised that I am bringing myself into the job market and the 2020 silly season. Wonder how many nursing jobs there are in motor sport?

Mercedes employs a full-time nurse in Brackley but that job is taken.

So there is hope yet!

Okay, let's play the game:

Mercedes
Valtteri Bottas
Lewis Hamilton

Ferrari
Charles Leclerc
Sebastian Vettel

Red Bull
Daniil Kvyat
Max Verstappen

McLaren
Lando Norris
Carlos Sainz

Toro Rosso
Alex Albon
Pierre Gasly

Renault
Esteban Ocon
Daniel Ricciardo

Racing Point
George Russell
Lance Stroll

Haas
Kevin Magnussen
Sergio Perez

Alfa Romeo
Antonio Giovinazzi
Kimi Raikkonen

Williams
Nicholas Latifi
Sergio Sette Camara

Aislabie wrote:Okay, let's play the game:

Mercedes
Valtteri Bottas
Lewis Hamilton

Ferrari
Charles Leclerc
Sebastian Vettel

Red Bull
Daniil Kvyat
Max Verstappen

McLaren
Lando Norris
Carlos Sainz

Toro Rosso
Alex Albon
Pierre Gasly

Renault
Esteban Ocon
Daniel Ricciardo

Racing Point
George Russell
Lance Stroll

Haas
Kevin Magnussen
Sergio Perez

Alfa Romeo
Antonio Giovinazzi
Kimi Raikkonen

Williams
Nicholas Latifi
Sergio Sette Camara

Mercedes
Valtteri Bottas
Lewis Hamilton

Ferrari
Charles Leclerc
Sebastian Vettel

Red Bull
Daniil Kvyat
Max Verstappen

McLaren
Lando Norris
Carlos Sainz

Toro Rosso
Alex Albon
Juri Vips

Renault
Nico Hulkenberg
Daniel Ricciardo

Racing Point
George Russell
Lance Stroll

Haas
Sergio Perez
Esteban Ocon

Alfa Romeo
Kevin Magnussen
Kimi Raikkonen

Williams
Nicholas Latifi
Jamie Chadwick

Miguel98 wrote:Jamie Chadwick

If she has the Super Licence points then this would actually be quite a good call. Good marketing, quick driver, and if they're still at the arse-end of the field then she can't stand out by being especially bad if everything went sideways