The Marcus Grönholm Rally Thread

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 23 Dec 2011, 13:33

While I'm glad that it confirms Mini will be competing, but I am still disappointed by this story. And his facial expression in the photo says it all!

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 23 Dec 2011, 16:21

Why is the local driver car the second car instead of the third car??? This doesn't make any sense.

So this means we're looking at something crazy like this for driver-lineups then...

MONACO Dani Sordo/Pierre Campana
SWEDEN Dani Sordo/Per-Gunnar Andersson
MEXICO Dani Sordo/Benito Guerra
PORTUGAL Dani Sordo/Armindo Araújo (presumably nominated to score manufacturer points instead of as an independent)
ARGENTINA Dani Sordo/?????
GREECE Dani Sordo/Lambros Athanassoulas
NEW ZEALAND Dani Sordo/Hayden Paddon
FINLAND Dani Sordo/Mattias Therman
GERMANY Dani Sordo/Aaron Burkart
GREAT BRITAIN Dani Sordo/David Bogie
FRANCE Dani Sordo/Nicolas Vouilloz
ITALY Dani Sordo/Giandomenico Basso
SPAIN Dani Sordo/Yeray Lemes

...with Kris Meeke thrown in the mix occasionally.

WHAT IS THIS MADNESS???!!????!!!!??!!!?????!!!!11111exclamationpointquestionmark

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 23 Dec 2011, 16:23

kostas22 wrote:Why is the local driver car the second car instead of the third car??? This doesn't make any sense.

So this means we're looking at something crazy like this for driver-lineups then...

MONACO Dani Sordo/Pierre Campana
SWEDEN Dani Sordo/Per-Gunnar Andersson
MEXICO Dani Sordo/Benito Guerra
PORTUGAL Dani Sordo/Armindo Araújo (presumably nominated to score manufacturer points instead of as an independent)
ARGENTINA Dani Sordo/?????
GREECE Dani Sordo/Lambros Athanassoulas
NEW ZEALAND Dani Sordo/Hayden Paddon
FINLAND Dani Sordo/Mattias Therman
GERMANY Dani Sordo/Aaron Burkart
GREAT BRITAIN Dani Sordo/Guy Wilks
FRANCE Dani Sordo/Nicolas Vouilloz
ITALY Dani Sordo/Giandomenico Basso
SPAIN Dani Sordo/Yeray Lemes

...with Kris Meeke thrown in the mix occasionally.

WHAT IS THIS MADNESS???!!????!!!!??!!!?????!!!!11111exclamationpointquestionmark

Lack of factory back-up... BMW doesn't want to fully commit themselves so Mini WRC team became half-hearted effort (German wise). Which is a shame really.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 04 Jan 2012, 11:12

Just read in Portuguese autosport that Mini was going to end the collaboration with Prodrive for the John Cooper Works WRC after Monte Carlo.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 04 Jan 2012, 12:01

DanielPT wrote:Just read in Portuguese autosport that Mini was going to end the collaboration with Prodrive for the John Cooper Works WRC after Monte Carlo.

This is the most recent news on Autosport and your news isn't in it.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 04 Jan 2012, 12:08

dr-baker wrote:
DanielPT wrote:Just read in Portuguese autosport that Mini was going to end the collaboration with Prodrive for the John Cooper Works WRC after Monte Carlo.

This is the most recent news on Autosport and your news isn't in it.

http://autosport.aeiou.pt/gen.pl?p=stories&op=view&fokey=as.stories/102360

Beware, it's in Portuguese...

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 04 Jan 2012, 12:22

DanielPT wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
DanielPT wrote:Just read in Portuguese autosport that Mini was going to end the collaboration with Prodrive for the John Cooper Works WRC after Monte Carlo.

This is the most recent news on Autosport and your news isn't in it.

http://autosport.aeiou.pt/gen.pl?p=stories&op=view&fokey=as.stories/102360

Beware, it's in Portuguese...

I have only ever studied English, French, German and Latin, so I don't understand Portuguese, but I assume that, "Alemanha já circulam rumores intensos" (words from the article) translate as, "intense rumours circulating from Germany"? Therefore not confirmed yet?

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 04 Jan 2012, 12:42

dr-baker wrote:
DanielPT wrote:
dr-baker wrote: This is the most recent news on Autosport and your news isn't in it.

http://autosport.aeiou.pt/gen.pl?p=stories&op=view&fokey=as.stories/102360

Beware, it's in Portuguese...

I have only ever studied English, French, German and Latin, so I don't understand Portuguese, but I assume that, "Alemanha já circulam rumores intensos" (words from the article) translate as, "intense rumours circulating from Germany"? Therefore not confirmed yet?

Not confirmed yes. And that is a good translation! It also says that Mini is preparing a press release to announce that. I say it is a strong possibility though...

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 04 Jan 2012, 13:00

DanielPT wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
DanielPT wrote:http://autosport.aeiou.pt/gen.pl?p=stories&op=view&fokey=as.stories/102360

Beware, it's in Portuguese...

I have only ever studied English, French, German and Latin, so I don't understand Portuguese, but I assume that, "Alemanha já circulam rumores intensos" (words from the article) translate as, "intense rumours circulating from Germany"? Therefore not confirmed yet?

Not confirmed yes. And that is a good translation! It also says that Mini is preparing a press release to announce that. I say it is a strong possibility though...

So I had a good general language education then?

But yeah, what I could understand (from words that resembled either English or French words) is that they reckon it's going to happen based upon these intense rumours. And Autosport confirms that the tensions between the two sides are quite intense... But nothing is announced yet...

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 04 Jan 2012, 13:38

dr-baker wrote:
DanielPT wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
I have only ever studied English, French, German and Latin, so I don't understand Portuguese, but I assume that, "Alemanha já circulam rumores intensos" (words from the article) translate as, "intense rumours circulating from Germany"? Therefore not confirmed yet?

Not confirmed yes. And that is a good translation! It also says that Mini is preparing a press release to announce that. I say it is a strong possibility though...

So I had a good general language education then? But yeah, what I could understand (from words that resembled either English or French words) is that they reckon it's going to happen based upon these intense rumours. And Autosport confirms that the tensions between the two sides are quite intense... But nothing is announced yet...

Yes, you seem to have a understanding basis for many languages based on the ones you know.

Nothing announced yes, still the signs are all there, including Meeke not doing all rallies...

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 04 Jan 2012, 14:56

If Prodrive won't be running the works programme anymore, then who the hell is going to? Or are they just going to withdraw altogether after all the hard work of developing the damn car for the last two years? The WRC is turning into a complete joke lately...

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 04 Jan 2012, 15:31

kostas22 wrote:If Prodrive won't be running the works programme anymore, then who the hell is going to? Or are they just going to withdraw altogether after all the hard work of developing the damn car for the last two years? The WRC is turning into a complete joke lately...

I think the fault is not with WRC. It is with those "Now I am in and now I am out" Germans from BMW. The only thing we know they want is to be in motorsport but then it is just a typical case of the pasture being greener on the other side. Don't be shocked if they retire Mini from Dakar in 2 editions from now at worst.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 04 Jan 2012, 19:43

Which also makes you question how long they will stay in the DTM for

I'm not saying it's the WRC's fault Mini are leaving, but unfortunately BMW's thoughtless decisions are dragging the sport through the mire.

At least it doesn't look like Volkswagen won't do the same thing - after all, they've had a continued presence in world rally in some form or another with their Skoda brand for over a decade now - becoming more successful with time. I doubt they will just forget that in a heartbeat.

But, I've just had a great idea. MG have zero reputation nowadays thanks to being owned by the Chinese. The solution? WRC programme! But alas, it's only a pipe dream...

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 04 Jan 2012, 21:16

kostas22 wrote:But, I've just had a great idea. MG have zero reputation nowadays thanks to being owned by the Chinese. The solution? WRC programme! But alas, it's only a pipe dream...

I have a felling that I read in Autosport a while ago that Chinese MG had aspirations to return the brand to Le Mans. Whether this is happening or not is another question. I'm just recalling Brilliance turning up to the launch of the WTCC several years ago and never actually being seen at a race meeting...

And I would love to see Mini return to BTCC, even if run and developed by privateers, as Team Aon recently did with the Ford Focus. After all, they already have their own one-make series here...

stupot94 · Post by **stupot94** » 04 Jan 2012, 22:00

dr-baker wrote:
kostas22 wrote:But, I've just had a great idea. MG have zero reputation nowadays thanks to being owned by the Chinese. The solution? WRC programme! But alas, it's only a pipe dream...

I have a felling that I read in Autosport a while ago that Chinese MG had aspirations to return the brand to Le Mans. Whether this is happening or not is another question. I'm just recalling Brilliance turning up to the launch of the WTCC several years ago and never actually being seen at a race meeting...

And I would love to see Mini return to BTCC, even if run and developed by privateers, as Team Aon recently did with the Ford Focus. After all, they already have their own one-make series here...

(Celebratory 400th post. 20,000 to go if I am to reach Phoenix)

Wasn't that Mini series cancelled due to the lack of response it had one year? Or did it come back

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 04 Jan 2012, 22:55

stupot94 wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
kostas22 wrote:But, I've just had a great idea. MG have zero reputation nowadays thanks to being owned by the Chinese. The solution? WRC programme! But alas, it's only a pipe dream...

I have a felling that I read in Autosport a while ago that Chinese MG had aspirations to return the brand to Le Mans. Whether this is happening or not is another question. I'm just recalling Brilliance turning up to the launch of the WTCC several years ago and never actually being seen at a race meeting...

And I would love to see Mini return to BTCC, even if run and developed by privateers, as Team Aon recently did with the Ford Focus. After all, they already have their own one-make series here...

(Celebratory 400th post. 20,000 to go if I am to reach Wizzie)

Wasn't that Mini series cancelled due to the lack of response it had one year? Or did it come back

Fixed

Also, there's a Mini series here in Australia that's been going for a few years now (it even saved the career of one J. Bargwanna although he's probably about to be put to pasture again anyway) but I'm not exactly sure how it's going.

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 04 Jan 2012, 23:01

Wizzie wrote:
stupot94 wrote:
dr-baker wrote:I have a felling that I read in Autosport a while ago that Chinese MG had aspirations to return the brand to Le Mans. Whether this is happening or not is another question. I'm just recalling Brilliance turning up to the launch of the WTCC several years ago and never actually being seen at a race meeting...

And I would love to see Mini return to BTCC, even if run and developed by privateers, as Team Aon recently did with the Ford Focus. After all, they already have their own one-make series here...

(Celebratory 400th post. 20,000 to go if I am to reach Wizzie)

Wasn't that Mini series cancelled due to the lack of response it had one year? Or did it come back

Fixed

Also, there's a Mini series here in Australia that's been going for a few years now (it even saved the career of one J. Bargwanna although he's probably about to be put to pasture again anyway) but I'm not exactly sure how it's going.

It died after that huge crash at QR few years ago.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 04 Jan 2012, 23:12

Mini Se7ens isn't it? Or something like that, I can't quite recall the name. I remember when MG were last in the BTCC, and they competed in Le Mans as well didn't they? I never really paid much attention to it back then, but what they tried to do under Phoenix Finance's management really wasn't that bad. It was just this retarded country's government that wouldn't step in to support its manufacturing industry, watching it fall by the wayside at the mercy of foreign brands that enjoyed healthy government support in their native countries. And now look at us, wondering where it all went...doesn't half piss me off sometimes...

Whoops sorry, back on topic! Prodrive recently announced they were to expand and move to a much larger premises in Banbury, taking over the site of the former Hella factory, whilst the current site of Prodrive's facility (here, Hella's old factory being Ocean House in the top left of the map) will be turned into a retail and leisure park I think.

So I can't understand why Prodrive would no longer be associated with the Mini WRC program when they're about to move into bigger premises. Doesn't add up at all.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 04 Jan 2012, 23:32

AndreaModa wrote:Mini Se7ens isn't it? Or something like that, I can't quite recall the name. I remember when MG were last in the BTCC, and they competed in Le Mans as well didn't they?

There are two classic Mini racing categories: Mini Se7ens and Mini Miglias - I saw them both race on the same bill as trucks last August at Thruxton... But there was also a BMW Mini championship... This happened in the Aussie version of the championship. Although I thought this particular incident happened at Knockhill, Scotland for some reason.

And MG continued for several years (maybe even 5?) both at Le Mans and in the BTCC after the collapse of the Phoenix Group. Remember watching Warren Hughes, I think it was (if our W.H.'s avatar is anything to go by!) racing it (BTCC, that is) in its final year or two.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 05 Jan 2012, 11:50

AndreaModa wrote:
Whoops sorry, back on topic! Prodrive recently announced they were to expand and move to a much larger premises in Banbury, taking over the site of the former Hella factory, whilst the current site of Prodrive's facility (here, Hella's old factory being Ocean House in the top left of the map) will be turned into a retail and leisure park I think.

So I can't understand why Prodrive would no longer be associated with the Mini WRC program when they're about to move into bigger premises. Doesn't add up at all.

I still think Prodrive will run Mini John Cooper Works this season although they might stop being factory backed-up. This move might mean they have other, bigger, plans for their company which doesn't necessarily have to involve Mini. Don't forget they run the Aston Martin Le Mans programme.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 07 Jan 2012, 18:02

Myrvold will not be happy.

So in other words, very little has changed at the M-Sport B-Team.

Post by **mario** » 07 Jan 2012, 21:09

kostas22 wrote:If Prodrive won't be running the works programme anymore, then who the hell is going to? Or are they just going to withdraw altogether after all the hard work of developing the damn car for the last two years? The WRC is turning into a complete joke lately...

What do you mean "turning into"? I'd say that, frankly, it already is a joke, with the mess over the liquidation of the commercial rights holder not helping at all (though to be fair to them it seems that the FIA refused to speak to the current commercial rights holders despite strenuous efforts by the current commercial rights holders to secure further finance and to shore up their position). http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96911
As you say, though, it isn't helping that BMW seem to change their opinion the moment something doesn't quite go their way - they managed to pick up podium finishes this year, yet still don't seem to be happy. [As an aside, I reckon that BMW will only stay in DTM for more than a couple of years if they succeed in their efforts to bully the organisers of DTM, GT500 and the FIA's GT racing division to accept the same, or at least quite similar, regulations across their events.]

DanielPT wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:
Whoops sorry, back on topic! Prodrive recently announced they were to expand and move to a much larger premises in Banbury, taking over the site of the former Hella factory, whilst the current site of Prodrive's facility (here, Hella's old factory being Ocean House in the top left of the map) will be turned into a retail and leisure park I think.

So I can't understand why Prodrive would no longer be associated with the Mini WRC program when they're about to move into bigger premises. Doesn't add up at all.

I still think Prodrive will run Mini John Cooper Works this season although they might stop being factory backed-up. This move might mean they have other, bigger, plans for their company which doesn't necessarily have to involve Mini. Don't forget they run the Aston Martin Le Mans programme.

True, although their Aston Martin racing program seems to be reverting back to GT cars - Prodrive parked the AMR-One's in the back of the garage after Le Mans and abandoned them completely as the cars were utter failures (though Prodrive started the AMR-One program far too late so the cars had no development, and they only have themselves to blame for that botched job given they could - and later on in the season did - fall back on the Lola-Aston Martin cars instead).

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 10 Jan 2012, 11:38

You can't help but feel the sport is run by a bunch of incompetent fools sometimes.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 10 Jan 2012, 11:47

Wizzie wrote:You can't help but feel the sport is run by a bunch of incompetent fools sometimes.

There is light at the end of the tunnel with Eurosport being the new promoters.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96911

They always did a good job with events they promoted. Besides Eurosport is free and it might get more fans in touch with the sport.

Post by **mario** » 10 Jan 2012, 12:15

Now things have gone from a tragedy to a farce - it looks like the former promoter, North One Sport, is launching legal proceedings against Stage One Technology, the company responsible for providing the timing and tracking devices for the WRC. It seems that there is currently an argument between the two parties over money which Stage One Technology claims North One Sport owes it - amounting to around £1 million - with North One Sport seemingly using this counter suit as a stalling tactic to apply pressure on S1T to ditch its own legal proceedings.
As a result, it looks like the Monte Carlo Rally may have to rely on the back up tracking and timing systems it has used in the past for the IRC instead, which means that the WRC event can probably take place without any major disruption. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96934

Nevertheless, it's pretty embarrassing to see NOS resorting to such aggressive legal action - particularly off the back of the FIA's counter statement to NOS's claims that the FIA rebuffed their attempts to contact them by saying that they had spoken to NOS. They then went on to accuse NOS of providing misleading comments to the press by overstating the willingness of outside parties to invest (saying that NOS had only obtained non binding offers of interest), before slamming them for breach of contract.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 10 Jan 2012, 13:25

It's the desperation of a company that knows it's going down. A very sad sight to see when they try anything and everything to prevent the inevitable happening, because it just drags innocent and unconnected parties through the dirt, and ultimately tarnishes the reputation of the WRC and the FIA.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 11 Jan 2012, 10:56

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96942

More interested in the fact Sandell is in the second Mini. Meeke is really being screwed over by BMW here.

Post by **mario** » 11 Jan 2012, 20:47

kostas22 wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96942

More interested in the fact Sandell is in the second Mini. Meeke is really being screwed over by BMW here.

Sadly Meeke is being treated pretty badly by BMW - given that BMW are now stepping up their efforts in other fields, such as DTM and various GT series, it's probable that BMW are treating the WRC as more of a distraction. Given that Mini are taking on a pay driver, I wouldn't be surprised if BMW have already started cutting the budget for Prodrive, or are considering cutting the program short before it's even really got going.

On a related note, the FIA have confirmed that Mini will be awarded manufacturer status for the 2012 WRC, which means that any points the team scores will count in the Constructors Championship. However, according to Autosport there is some uncertainty over what races the works team will actually compete in, as Mini have obtained a waiver from the FIA which grants them manufacturer status even if they do not compete in every event. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96960
Whilst it may be a positive step in one sense, it's also worrying in another - when the Mini WRC program was originally announced it was stated that 2011 was a development year, whilst 2012 would see Mini take part in its first full season. Now this announcement seems to suggest that Mini might be skipping some rounds, which again makes me wonder if BMW are already toying with axing the program.
At least VW seem to be more committed to their program - they have poached the former Citroen works team manager, Sven Smeets, which seems to be a statement of intent (i.e. being competitive right from the start). http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96957

AndreaModa wrote:It's the desperation of a company that knows it's going down. A very sad sight to see when they try anything and everything to prevent the inevitable happening, because it just drags innocent and unconnected parties through the dirt, and ultimately tarnishes the reputation of the WRC and the FIA.

Even sadder to see is that NOS seems to have got its way - S1T have announced that, since they cannot afford the legal fees to fight NOS's legal challenges, they are having to return the timing equipment after NOS rejected their most recent offer (even though S1T offered to write off NOS's debt of £1 million if NOS agreed to let them keep the timing equipment - worth around £10,000 - so they could fulfil their contract with the FIA). Added to that, it looks like NOS's actions might result in S1T being forced to close down because, without NOS providing them with equipment, S1T will probably have to cancel their contract with the FIA. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96959

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 12 Jan 2012, 01:58

I wish WRC would return to how it was in the late 1990s - early 2000s.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 12 Jan 2012, 12:04

eurobrun wrote:I wish WRC would return to how it was in the early 1980s - mid 1980s. (As in 82 - 86 but much safer cars)

Fixed.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 12 Jan 2012, 20:41

Remind me - the Minis on the Dakar Rally: they are private entries? They are not being funded by BMW? It's a shame, because the car showed potential in WRC last year and is the best manufacturer in this year's Dakar by some way (barring perhaps Hummer?).

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 12 Jan 2012, 21:09

dr-baker wrote:Remind me - the Minis on the Dakar Rally: they are private entries? They are not being funded by BMW? It's a shame, because the car showed potential in WRC last year and is the best manufacturer in this year's Dakar by some way (barring perhaps Hummer?).

They are X-Raid entries. Not private but not Official. Semi-official if it might be said. I think it is as official as it can get for BMW. They've done it like this for years now. Financially, they should be partially funded by BMW, partially by sponsors like Monster. Much like Hummer it must be said.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 13 Jan 2012, 11:54

The Mini WRC soap opera continues

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 13 Jan 2012, 12:01

Wizzie wrote:The Mini WRC soap opera continues

WRC was in desperate need of Soap Operas to raise interest and attention. Just look at the posts in this thread since it started! And we did end up creating this thread after all (admittedly that was before the Mini shenanigans but the number of people posting in it has been rising, IMHO).

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 18 Jan 2012, 10:25

Two stages in and the top 5 is as follows:

Latvala
Loeb
Solberg
Sordo (was second after SS1 and despite hitting a wall in SS2)
Hirvonen

Makes you wonder what the hell BMW are thinking when the Mini is so effective already.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 18 Jan 2012, 12:35

Wizzie wrote:Two stages in and the top 5 is as follows:

Latvala
Loeb
Solberg
Sordo (was second after SS1 and despite hitting a wall in SS2)
Hirvonen

Makes you wonder what the hell BMW are thinking when the Mini is so effective already.

Perhaps they are waiting to see how they perform? From what little can we extract from BMW short stay as a team in F1, it looks to be wins or nothing.

EDIT: Tiny update of Monte Carlo Rally: Latvala crashed from the lead in the last stage of the day and Hirvonen is getting a huge beating from Loeb. So, nothing new this season.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 18 Jan 2012, 17:05

WHY JARI, WHY?!

Once again La Machine Ennuyeuse will win with ease

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 18 Jan 2012, 22:49

What is it with Jari and throwing it into the scenery? :lol:

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 19 Jan 2012, 00:47

Hopefully Loeb & Co. follow suit and Ogier ends up winning despite driving an S2000 Fabia

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 19 Jan 2012, 01:58

kostas22 wrote:Hopefully Loeb & Co. follow suit and Ogier ends up winning despite driving an S2000 Fabia

It's the ultimate shame for Hirvonen that he's being beaten by Ogier anyway :lol: