Grand Prix Rejects

Posted: **18 Aug 2014, 20:14**

This probably explains it

Still, I can't imagine how gutted Sainz Jr must be tonight. Chap's done everything that could be expected of him from Red Bull.

Posted: **18 Aug 2014, 20:18**

It was expected since Red Bull chooses Ricciardo in the last year, but Red Bull is doing a mistake (especially because Vergne don't deserve to be replaced, yet). Max is too young and also this is a big slap in Sainz Jr's, Lynn's and Ghasly's face. It's better for these drivers for look a race seat somewhere outside of Red Bull.

Posted: **18 Aug 2014, 20:25**

East Londoner wrote:This probably explains it

Still, I can't imagine how gutted Sainz Jr must be tonight. Chap's done everything that could be expected of him from Red Bull.

Now they'll probably end up destroying that potential champion in the process.

And yeah, you gotta feel for Carlos. Winning FR3.5 and a guy who's not even winning F3 is getting a drive over him.

Posted: **18 Aug 2014, 20:30**

Ataxia wrote:What on EARTH are Toro Rosso doing? So you've got Carlos Sainz Jr who's winning FR3.5 at a canter, Pierre Gasly who's 3rd in the same championship in his first season, and Alex Lynn who's ripping GP3 apart. It's not only common sense, but common etiquette to select one of those three.

Instead, they've pretty much told their own driver development squad to go f*ck itself and will instead stick some 17-year-old in they picked up a couple of weeks ago. Now, that's forgivable if he's completely and utterly amazing. Oh, wait? He's not even WINNING F3?

I don't even know what the thought process is here. Sainz Jr has experience of F1 machinery, Gasly's a Ghost type and so will be unaffected by physical moves, and Lynn's the option if they wanted to try The Kvyat Strategy V2.0. Max Verstappen hasn't even been out of karts for a year.

IF, just IF (which, as a certain motormouth commentator is at liberty to tell us, is F1 backwards) Verstappen manages to adapt in record time, then it would appear to be a masterstroke. However, the implications if it did work out would be a catastrophe for the lower feeder series. In the early 2000s where Button and Raikkonen made it more fashionable to pluck drivers from lower down it hastened the end of F3000. It might trigger a similar fate for GP2.

Whilst I could see some logic in their decision to pick Kvyat last season, this time around I am, like yourself, struggling to see the justification.

As you say, Red Bull have three drivers who are seemingly demonstrating their ability with exactly the sort of performances you'd think Red Bull are looking for, whilst Sainz Jr. has already tested for both Red Bull and Toro Rosso and was reportedly commended for his performance and for the technical feedback that he provided (both of which reportedly exceeded expectations).
In terms of technical ability and experience, all of their current drivers outshine Max Verstappen in those areas - you'd have thought that, at the very least, they might have waited until he had carried out a test session against one of their established junior drivers, who could act as a known yardstick, and proven his ability before offering him a race seat.

Posted: **18 Aug 2014, 20:34**

Maybe Jos threatened to run Helmut over?

Posted: **18 Aug 2014, 21:06**

fjackdaw wrote:Maybe Jos threatened to run Helmut over?

Don't think so. Jos made the mistake of coming to soon and we saw how his carrer ended up.

Posted: **18 Aug 2014, 21:08**

Miguel98 wrote:
fjackdaw wrote:Maybe Jos threatened to run Helmut over?

Don't think so. Jos made the mistake of coming to soon and we saw how his carrer ended up.

Then again, Jos was never the sharpest tool in the shed...

Posted: **18 Aug 2014, 21:30**

fjackdaw wrote:Maybe Jos threatened to run Helmut over?

Posted: **18 Aug 2014, 21:42**

Honestly, why? What must Sainz jr, Gasly and Lynn be thinking? They must be wondering what more must they do to get into F1 - same with most other drivers now in GP2, GP3 and FR3.5 when they try their all to get any F1 seat, then see someone 3 years younger get handed an F1 debut like a sweetie

The only logic I can see in this is that Max is a Vettel 2.0 in that Red Bull stick with Vettel for 5 years, which gives Max plenty of time to get experience, then phase Vettel out while gradually rebuilding the team around Verstappen so he can do in 2020-2023 what Vettel did in 2010-2013. In a way thats how Red Bull operates, build a team round 1 driver while grooming the 2nd in Toro Rosso then when new regs come in, quietly shuffle off/retire driver 1 to make way for driver 2. Coulthard was first, Vettel was 2nd, Verstappen 3rd?

Its still an incredible gamble though for both driver and team. Going by the way Toro Rosso chew up drivers, I wouldnt be surprised if hes out of F1 entirely before he hits 20 either. Whether thats fair and ethical is another debate. I'd also like to see what Massa would think of it...

Posted: **18 Aug 2014, 21:50**

Max is only just old enough to be in a pit lane at a race weekend!

Posted: **18 Aug 2014, 21:57**

It'd be really awkward if Max got on the podium before he's 18. What are they going to give him, Diet Coke?

Posted: **18 Aug 2014, 22:06**

When I first saw it I thought it was a joke- I'm stunned. Talk about the blind leading the blind!!!!
If Max gets onto the podium in america he will have to wait until 2018 before taking a drink!!

Seriously I don't care how amazing he is- The FIA should have an age limit of 19 and over to compete in f1!

Not surprised though about Vergne losing his seat though- it is a bit early to announce it though- I wonder where his mindset will be for the rest of the season!!!

Posted: **18 Aug 2014, 22:41**

Verstappen's son in F1... I now feel ancient!

Posted: **18 Aug 2014, 22:42**

Mexicola wrote:It'd be really awkward if Max got on the podium before he's 18. What are they going to give him, Diet Coke?

Surely you only have to be 18 to buy alcohol, not to actually drink it?

I'm reasonably certain there's no law against people under 18 drinking alcohol - in the UK, anyway...

Posted: **18 Aug 2014, 22:48**

rachel1990 wrote:Seriously I don't care how amazing he is- The FIA should have an age limit of 19 and over to compete in f1!

This is actually not a bad idea in my opinion. There's too many inexperienced kids being pushed into F1 and the idea of entering F1 at this kind of age becoming the norm scares the shite out of me. One day the grid will be filled people who are too young and too inexperienced and it will suck.

Besides that, with underage drinking unlikely to be promoted by the FIA, podium ceremonies will start being like this.

Posted: **18 Aug 2014, 22:52**

Paul Hayes wrote:
Mexicola wrote:It'd be really awkward if Max got on the podium before he's 18. What are they going to give him, Diet Coke?

Surely you only have to be 18 to buy alcohol, not to actually drink it?

I'm reasonably certain there's no law against people under 18 drinking alcohol - in the UK, anyway...

It's illegal to drink under 18 in Northern Ireland, but it's different in GB though. I didn't care enough to explain worldwide swallin' laws in my post

Posted: **18 Aug 2014, 22:54**

Three things about this Verstappen decision particularly confound me.

1) Talent alone has never been enough to get someone in the Red Bull Junior program all the way to F1 (unless your name was Vettel). Talent gets you into the program, but then it's application and the ability to overcome perceived weaknesses that gets you to F1 (greetings, Antonio Felix da Costa). Max hasn't had the time to prove himself in the crucible of the program, and it seems like he's being fast-tracked on the basis of raw talent alone. I haven't seen a punt like this since Raikkonen, but as dr-baker points out elsewhere, at least Sauber saw Kimi in an F1 test before picking him.

2) F1 is not just about ability. It's also about fitness, stamina, mental agility, tactical nous, technical understanding, the ability to deal with the press, and being able to withstand the wrath of the F1 Rejects podcast. There's a reason that, up to this point, the youngest drivers to get into F1 have all been around the 19 mark at best. You need a certain level of maturity. 17 is a quantum leap from 19. I agree that this is a slap in the face, not only for the other Red Bull Junior drivers, but for feeder formulae and what they have to offer.

3) Jos the Boss has reputedly wanted to make sure that Max doesn't get into F1 too soon, and hence avoid the pitfalls and traps he fell into. So much for that, then. I don't think Kvyat is the next Michael Schumacher but still, F1 has had a history of destroying promising talents because they came in too soon.

One final thing. I presume this means JEV is out of the Red Bull stable after this year. What also amazes me is how some drivers who appear genuinely talented (even if not the final product) get used, abused and dumped by the company (e.g. JEV, Jaime Alguersuari), whilst others who seem to be of middling ability somehow can remain in the Red Bull stable long after they have flirted with F1 (e.g. Sebastien Buemi, Neel Jani).

Posted: **18 Aug 2014, 23:09**

I just can't see any way this is going to end well. Even if he beats Kvyat, so what? Kvyat is too young to be a benchmark for anyone else. And how long are they going to give him to adapt? Toro Rosso give their drivers 2 years maximum before they kick them out. Does that mean we can expect him to be in a Red Bull seat by the age of 19 if Marko has got it right? He's not Marc Marquez for crying out loud (even he's 21!).

I say a quote on the BBC article from Max Verstappen: "We have all worked tremendously hard to reach Formula 1". Really?

On the plus side, the whole situation has MASSIVE REJECT POTENTIAL!

Posted: **19 Aug 2014, 00:04**

I do tend to agree that he will be way out of his depth, but I do have an awful record of predicting these things. As for Vernge, he has always struck me as neither terrible nor incredible, which to Helmut Marko isn't enough

Posted: **19 Aug 2014, 07:51**

Mexicola wrote:
Paul Hayes wrote:
Mexicola wrote:It'd be really awkward if Max got on the podium before he's 18. What are they going to give him, Diet Coke?

Surely you only have to be 18 to buy alcohol, not to actually drink it?

I'm reasonably certain there's no law against people under 18 drinking alcohol - in the UK, anyway...

It's illegal to drink under 18 in Northern Ireland, but it's different in GB though. I didn't care enough to explain worldwide swallin' laws in my post

Thinking about it, if he got it for finishing on the podium that probably officially makes it a prize, and it probably is illegal here to give someone under 18 alcohol as a prize or reward!

Posted: **19 Aug 2014, 09:48**

Mexicola wrote:It'd be really awkward if Max got on the podium before he's 18. What are they going to give him, Diet Coke?

Red Bull, obviously

Posted: **19 Aug 2014, 10:55**

takagi_for_the_win wrote:
Mexicola wrote:It'd be really awkward if Max got on the podium before he's 18. What are they going to give him, Diet Coke?

Red Bull, obviously

Give him the zero calorie Red Bull!

Posted: **19 Aug 2014, 11:18**

Wouldn't it be ironic then if Max got his first podium in Bahrain or Abu Dhabi!

Posted: **19 Aug 2014, 11:33**

Give him another 2 or 3 years in junior formulae surely?

Also does he even qualify fro a Super Licence at that age?

Posted: **19 Aug 2014, 11:38**

James1978 wrote:Give him another 2 or 3 years in junior formulae surely?

Also does he even qualify fro a Super Licence at that age?

I'm not sure if there's an age restriction on getting a Super Licence, so he might well do. In that case, it's just a matter of doing the mileage required for one.

Posted: **19 Aug 2014, 12:34**

dr-baker wrote:Wouldn't it be ironic then if Max got his first podium in Bahrain or Abu Dhabi!

Well he'll be 18 by the 2015 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix (if it's held in its usual place). But in Bahrain, he would get same rosewater as other drivers!

Posted: **19 Aug 2014, 12:47**

Bleu wrote:
dr-baker wrote:Wouldn't it be ironic then if Max got his first podium in Bahrain or Abu Dhabi!

Well he'll be 18 by the 2015 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix (if it's held in its usual place). But in Bahrain, he would get same rosewater as other drivers!

Isn't there rosewater at the Abu Dhabi GP too?

Posted: **19 Aug 2014, 14:11**

Well for the first time I'm going to be seeing a Formula 1 driver younger than me. Did expect that a few years later than 2015 though.

Posted: **19 Aug 2014, 18:21**

As with all Driver Development Programmes, the Red Bull Driver Development Programme only works if there's a seat at Red Bull available to go into. So either Marko expects Vettel or Ricciardo to leave by 2017, or Young Max is going the way of Vergne, Buemi, SQUIRE, and others, of a three year career in F1 then Formula E if you're lucky.

Posted: **20 Aug 2014, 07:49**

Mexicola wrote:
James1978 wrote:Give him another 2 or 3 years in junior formulae surely?

Also does he even qualify fro a Super Licence at that age?

I'm not sure if there's an age restriction on getting a Super Licence, so he might well do. In that case, it's just a matter of doing the mileage required for one.

You have to be 16 to get a Super Licence, so if he did the mileage he could have one to race this season.

Posted: **20 Aug 2014, 08:35**

Backmarker wrote:You have to be 16 to get a Super Licence, so if he did the mileage he could have one to race this season.

SIXTEEN? Christ on the cross, I thought if there was an age restriction it would be higher than that!

Posted: **20 Aug 2014, 08:54**

andrew2209 wrote:Well for the first time I'm going to be seeing a Formula 1 driver younger than me. Did expect that a few years later than 2015 though.

Since Schumi retired, they've *all* been younger than me. :/

Posted: **20 Aug 2014, 10:58**

Has Lotterer been confirmed, haven't seen any official confirmation from a reliable source

Posted: **20 Aug 2014, 12:01**

RonDenisDeletraz wrote:Has Lotterer been confirmed, haven't seen any official confirmation from a reliable source

Posted: **20 Aug 2014, 12:29**

RonDenisDeletraz wrote:Has Lotterer been confirmed? Haven't seen any official confirmation from a reliable source.

It's now on Autosport.

Posted: **20 Aug 2014, 12:35**

RonDenisDeletraz wrote:Has Lotterer been confirmed, haven't seen any official confirmation from a reliable source

It was confirmed on wtf1 2 days ago.

Posted: **20 Aug 2014, 12:40**

roblomas52 wrote:It was confirmed on wtf1 2 days ago.

In other news, The Onion has confirmed that Raikkonen has thrown a hissy fit following Ferrari's decision to switch suppliers from Finlandia to Skyy, and have opted to draft in Pastor Maldonado as his replacement. Lotus' suppliers have insisted Johnny Cecotto Jr is Maldonado's replacement, to ensure the demand for spare parts remains high in his absence.

Posted: **20 Aug 2014, 18:57**

Mexicola wrote:
Backmarker wrote:You have to be 16 to get a Super Licence, so if he did the mileage he could have one to race this season.

SIXTEEN? Christ on the cross, I thought if there was an age restriction it would be higher than that!

The reason why it is only sixteen is because the age limit the FIA imposes is the same for all licence types - it is probably one of those catch all clauses that is really only primarily intended to cover lower licence grades, but forms a loophole that Red Bull can use to push Max into F1 next year.

After all, normally you have to be 18 years old to obtain a Grade A licence, which is the minimum prerequisite for a Superlicence, but there is an option that allows you to obtain a Grade A licence at an earlier age. I imagine that the FIA would not have expected a team would make that gamble and push such an inexperienced and young driver into F1 before - Max is two years younger than the youngest driver that has ever raced in F1 before - and so they probably did not think that it was necessary to address that issue before.

Posted: **20 Aug 2014, 19:38**

mario wrote:
Mexicola wrote:
Backmarker wrote:You have to be 16 to get a Super Licence, so if he did the mileage he could have one to race this season.

SIXTEEN? Christ on the cross, I thought if there was an age restriction it would be higher than that!

The reason why it is only sixteen is because the age limit the FIA imposes is the same for all licence types - it is probably one of those catch all clauses that is really only primarily intended to cover lower licence grades, but forms a loophole that Red Bull can use to push Max into F1 next year.

After all, normally you have to be 18 years old to obtain a Grade A licence, which is the minimum prerequisite for a Superlicence, but there is an option that allows you to obtain a Grade A licence at an earlier age. I imagine that the FIA would not have expected a team would make that gamble and push such an inexperienced and young driver into F1 before - Max is two years younger than the youngest driver that has ever raced in F1 before - and so they probably did not think that it was necessary to address that issue before.

Wouldn't it be interesting if they did indeed close that loophole before next year? I wonder if they would dare to?

Posted: **21 Aug 2014, 09:20**

dr-baker wrote:
mario wrote:
Mexicola wrote:SIXTEEN? Christ on the cross, I thought if there was an age restriction it would be higher than that!

The reason why it is only sixteen is because the age limit the FIA imposes is the same for all licence types - it is probably one of those catch all clauses that is really only primarily intended to cover lower licence grades, but forms a loophole that Red Bull can use to push Max into F1 next year.

After all, normally you have to be 18 years old to obtain a Grade A licence, which is the minimum prerequisite for a Superlicence, but there is an option that allows you to obtain a Grade A licence at an earlier age. I imagine that the FIA would not have expected a team would make that gamble and push such an inexperienced and young driver into F1 before - Max is two years younger than the youngest driver that has ever raced in F1 before - and so they probably did not think that it was necessary to address that issue before.

Wouldn't it be interesting if they did indeed close that loophole before next year? I wonder if they would dare to?

In case they do, would that mean the FIA could effectively veto Max's debut, forcing Toro Rosso to delay it with a stop-gap driver?

Grand Prix Rejects

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