Grand Prix Rejects

sswishbone wrote:So rumours had been pie in the sky about a Miami race next season and then today I see this on Autosport



Now a rumour from BBC Gossip was that Baku of all places might be dropped for it. And this looks a similar layout, but what's with that hairpin after the arena? It looks almost as bad as the one from that awful A1GP Chinese layout!

It looks even worse at ground level, as it looks like it would be an extremely narrow and easily blocked pinch point - it's just asking for trouble. I also wonder how they are going to recover any vehicles which might get stranded on the bridge sections too.

It's also been noted that the Formula E race which was held in that area was a fairly big flop as well, in part because the infrastructure there made it pretty difficult to get people to the venue - so putting the circuit in an area where previous races had that issue doesn't really make sense in that regard. Equally, I believe that there was a sizeable amount of local discontent about the race given that people objected to the disruption to local infrastructure, so I can't see the race winning many fans in that regard either.

The whole circuit comes across as trying to replicate Baku, but coming off as an inferior copycat version (I don't want to be rude, but it comes across as a bit rubbish).

Id really much prefer Magny-Cours to be back on the calendar but now the French Grand Prix is going to be held at Paul Ricard its not going to happen.

The Chicane wrote:Id really much prefer Magny-Cours to be back on the calendar but now the French Grand Prix is going to be held at Paul Ricard its not going to happen.

Magny-Cours did give us some boring races. Fantastic layout though.

wsrgo wrote:

The Chicane wrote:Id really much prefer Magny-Cours to be back on the calendar but now the French Grand Prix is going to be held at Paul Ricard its not going to happen.

Magny-Cours did give us some boring races. Fantastic layout though.

I didn't mind the races there, the layout is much more interesting then Paul Ricard's imo.

"Modern" F1 hasn't been to Magny-Cours, so there's the chance that it might suit the current formula more compared to when it was last on the calendar (although the track's so narrow I can't really see that happening...)

As for Paul Ricard, it's been off the calendar for even longer. Sure, on paper it looks like Gonzo from The Muppets got run over by a truck, but the facilities are nice and there's a few nice spots to launch a possible overtake.

Wasn't sure whether to post this here or in the FE forum :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-44003961

The Birmingham Superprix could be making a comeback through the medium of Formula E. Some hyperbole below :

West Midlands Mayor Andy Street said he was in "advanced talks" over staging a 2019 leg of the all-electric Formula E series.

He said the "symbolic" event, featuring battery-powered racing cars, would put Birmingham alongside the likes of Paris, Berlin and Zurich.

"Like many Brummies, I remember the original Super Prix fondly," he said.

"Photos and footage from those events have become almost part of folklore and remind us of how those events thrust the city firmly into the spotlight."

wsrgo wrote:
Magny-Cours did give us some boring races. Fantastic layout though.

I think it was handicapped by having nearly all its races in the refuelling era, and having a short pit lane so that everyone just waited for the stops. Actually 92 had some rain and chaos , and even 1991 had some lead changes I think . And 1999 was great for the rain.

The Magny-Cours facilities have been much upgraded since F1 was last there in 2008, they was probably hoping that doing so would help their chances of getting back on the F1 calendar.

btw... those lines off track at Paul Ricard hurt my eyes.

madmark1974 wrote:Wasn't sure whether to post this here or in the FE forum :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-44003961

The Birmingham Superprix could be making a comeback through the medium of Formula E. Some hyperbole below :

Would be delighted if it happens, having not been in Birmingham during the Superprix days. The BBC article is as well written as ever, saying within a few paragraphs that the race is intended for 2019 AND 2022. I assume in reality they would be aiming for the latter.

Barbazza wrote: The BBC article is as well written as ever, saying within a few paragraphs that the race is intended for 2019 AND 2022. I assume in reality they would be aiming for the latter.

Autosport to the rescue!: https://www.autosport.com/fe/news/13586 ... race-talks

Autosport/Motorsport are now reporting that Vietnam is on the cards for 2020: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vietnam-poised-for-2020-f1-calendar-slot/3191592/

But since we already have 21 races on the calendar, and what with Miami supposedly coming in too, it seems likely that we'll see a few tracks leave. Surely they're not going to add to the number of races now? Then again, that's what we said in the past when it was at 18 or 19 and still they added races.

By the way, this proposal for the Vietnam circuit where it has both a section of existing roads and a newly-built section sounds interesting to me!

Hmm, although I really don't want them to do it, I can now easily see us getting up to that desired 25 races that the FiA and Bernie had said that they wanted a few years back.

Not that I dislike new race tracks, but I wish it were in place of a dud rather than yet another add-on.

Waris wrote:By the way, this proposal for the Vietnam circuit where it has both a section of existing roads and a newly-built section sounds interesting to me!

Not to me. We already had Adelaide, and that was thrown off the calendar, because Melbourne paid more mon... I mean, was a bigger challenge. Vietnam is just another nation with no background in motorsport and will have a hard time filling up those grandstands. It's a waste of time and money.

You know which street circuit also had a purpose-built section? VALENCIA

I liked Valencia ....it had a bridge , a swervy bit, a tight bit , some straights with slow corners at the end ...Some great GP2 racing. I think it was rubbish for spectators though..(?) .
Do I recall correctly that under the current deal , the teams have to approve any extra races ? I assume under the new deal Liberty will seek to have 25 races without the need for teams to agree. Personally I dont mind going to new places for a bit and then they drop off - India , Korea etc . Its just whether teams will bite the bullet and rotate staff ( they used to run entire test teams, without too much difficulty ) . Perhaps though we are reaching saturation ? Would 22/23/24/25 races dilute the 'Grand Prix' concept as a special event?
If the football world cup was held every year it wouldnt be so special..if we have 25 races, is it too many ? Nascar has 38 races..so who remembers half of them ( and the importance of any one of them is diminished) ...But 25?

Maybe we have reached the 'right ' point at 20/21 races . I think I may have talked myself into that

yannicksamlad wrote:I liked Valencia ....it had a bridge , a swervy bit, a tight bit , some straights with slow corners at the end ...Some great GP2 racing. I think it was rubbish for spectators though..(?) .

I liked Valencia, too, but it never produced any good races for Formula 1. Adelaide had at least a few.

yannicksamlad wrote:...if we have 25 races, is it too many ? Nascar has 38 races..so who remembers half of them ( and the importance of any one of them is diminished) ...But 25?

Maybe we have reached the 'right ' point at 20/21 races . I think I may have talked myself into that

In my opinion, 16 races was sometimes too much already. I only watch a handfull of races nowadays, the rest is just boring filler in countries I don't even care about. 25 races would be complete overkill, because a single race would never make a difference anymore. You could strike half the races from the calendar, and no one would miss them.

I'm an F1 fan and so I like more F1, but I have to admit that the current calendar pretty much leaves me satisfied. I'm not always wanting more like I was before 21 races. It's a weird feeling, actually.

Was having similar thoughts to this thread when I saw that Vietnam was closing in on hosting a GP. Should the regulations be tightened a bit so that a track layout FIRST be proven to be conducive to good racing BEFORE they can host a GP? I know that the Tilkedromes got preferential treatment under the Bernie era, and while the facilities were top class, the racing was a bit iffy. Bernie is gone, and maybe Chase Carey and company should look at things differently? Afterall, the racing is the center product. (I'm well aware that many countries pay a LOT of money to host a GP, but if it is dulling the core product, then some culling may need to be done to preserve it)

On the subject of track design, should renowned racing drivers do the track layout, then have someone like Tilke design the features around that? Afterall racing drivers know what makes for good racing.

Personally I'd prefer less than the current number. Somewhere rotating between 15 to 18 is perfect for me. It allows new tracks to come in, and if they're bad they disappear, and if they're good they replace another one. It's also still few enough races where each one makes a difference of real weight.

I ranted on the forum last year about Häkkinen crashing at Monza in 1999, knowing there are only three races to go to save his championship. Oh wait, there are actually eight, or twelve more races to go, so it doesn't matter. Too many races and it almost doesn't matter watching them until you get to the last three or four.

Any track new or old can look dull with the current cars.

Pacific 777 wrote:I know that the Tilkedromes got preferential treatment under the Bernie era, and while the facilities were top class, the racing was a bit iffy. (...) On the subject of track design, should renowned racing drivers do the track layout, then have someone like Tilke design the features around that? Afterall racing drivers know what makes for good racing.

I think the main problem with the Tilkedromes isn't the track layout itself, but the lush run-off areas. Tilke was pushed by Bernie and/or the FIA to include as many and as big run-off areas as possible, and he did it. His tracks would be probably much more interesting for racing, if these areas were cut down or disposed of altogether.

Spectoremg wrote:Any track new or old can look dull with the current cars.

It's not so much the new cars. Since I watch Formula 1 (1995), there were always dull tracks that could only provide us with entertaining races when it rained cats and dogs. Monaco 1996, Magny-Cours 1999... As I've said above, the biggest problem with modern Formula 1 are the run-off areas. On some circuits, they're even wider than the race track itself. If cars would get stuck in sand traps like in the old days, things might be a little more interesting, in my opinion.

Oooh yes - sandtraps ! I remember them ( I also remember catchfencing, which was both effective and scary) .

I sometimes think they should put something ( like a thin layer of sand?) on the 2 metres of run off right next to the track , that attaches to the tyres , reduces the grip and takes a lap or 2 to wear off. But then it would reduce the effectiveness of the run off for safety. Sand traps had the problem of cars digging in and rolling over, and these days it takes so many laps of VSC or safety car just to rescue a car that maybe its better to ensure they can continue.
How about a compulsory drive through if you go too far off the track ?

yannicksamlad wrote:Oooh yes - sandtraps ! I remember them ( I also remember catchfencing, which was both effective and scary) .

I sometimes think they should put something ( like a thin layer of sand?) on the 2 metres of run off right next to the track , that attaches to the tyres , reduces the grip and takes a lap or 2 to wear off. But then it would reduce the effectiveness of the run off for safety. Sand traps had the problem of cars digging in and rolling over, and these days it takes so many laps of VSC or safety car just to rescue a car that maybe its better to ensure they can continue.
How about a compulsory drive through if you go too far off the track ?

DTM had that back in the day when I watched regularly (2011 to 2013), and they always argued about millimetres on certain tracks like Hockenheim. It was quite tedious. Why not install a chip that shuts off the engine when a driver goes too wide? That's just like being stuck in a sandtrap without the actual dangers of a real sandtrap, like rolling over, etc.? But maybe that's taking things a bit too far just for the sake of entertainment...

Rob Dylan wrote:Somewhere rotating between 15 to 18 is perfect for me.

See the "problem" with this (which isn't a problem for me personally since I like more races rather than less) is that sponsors demand X amount of exposure. So if you cut ten races off the calendar, non-championship races will return. Teams certainly won't ask for less money!

That could actually be a good way to "test" a new track for F1, like when they ran the Questor GP.....

yannicksamlad wrote:Its just whether teams will bite the bullet and rotate staff ( they used to run entire test teams, without too much difficulty ) .

This remark of yours about the staff reminds me of something I was thinking about the other day. The more staff the teams have, the harder it becomes to create new (competent) teams, because all the competent people are already employed by a team. I originally thought of this in the context of budget caps/staff restrictions. One proposal was, instead of having a budget cap, to restrict the number of staff allowed to work on the cars. If for either of these reasons teams would lay people off, those people would be ready to sign for any new team, which would help that team get off to a head start, so it would be good for the sport.

If there are too many races on the calendar, however, teams would need more staff to be able to rest their staff (which is what we already have right now, I believe). I'm always a fan, as we here at Rejects all are, I suppose, of having more, smaller teams on the grid, so I think it would be better to have fewer races. I would love to have 13 teams back in F1, but 12 would do too. Heck, at this point, even one additional team would make me happy. I just have no idea who could do it at this point. The recent HRT/Caterham/Manor events seem to have scared away potential new entrants.

Anything over 20 rounds is too much. 11 rounds of F2/GP3 and five pre-season tests was enough to see me off, god knows how those who attend every race each year do it.

I get that, for some, the F1 circus is their life...but imagine the strain on relationships and on families. Either there has to be a point where people say "okay, to keep people from burning out and overdoing it, we'll cap the races" or subsidise the cost of rotation.

This all being said, I've become quite enthused by the idea of a round in Vietnam. It's just so...out there.

Just for the lols, can we have the USA round sandwiched between the Russian and Vietnam races?

Turbogirl wrote:DTM had that back in the day when I watched regularly (2011 to 2013), and they always argued about millimetres on certain tracks like Hockenheim. It was quite tedious. Why not install a chip that shuts off the engine when a driver goes too wide? That's just like being stuck in a sandtrap without the actual dangers of a real sandtrap, like rolling over, etc.? But maybe that's taking things a bit too far just for the sake of entertainment...

I like that idea- a chip triggered by a sensor in the run off and which cuts the power for a while. Yes, as you say, this gets over those arguments about how far off-track someone went ( I faintly recall those that you mentioned from skimming Autosport articles) ..
Right - shall we email the FIA?

yannicksamlad wrote:

Turbogirl wrote:DTM had that back in the day when I watched regularly (2011 to 2013), and they always argued about millimetres on certain tracks like Hockenheim. It was quite tedious. Why not install a chip that shuts off the engine when a driver goes too wide? That's just like being stuck in a sandtrap without the actual dangers of a real sandtrap, like rolling over, etc.? But maybe that's taking things a bit too far just for the sake of entertainment...

I like that idea- a chip triggered by a sensor in the run off and which cuts the power for a while. Yes, as you say, this gets over those arguments about how far off-track someone went ( I faintly recall those that you mentioned from skimming Autosport articles) ..
Right - shall we email the FIA?

We can try, but it's been a while since they actually listened to what fans wanted.

Turbogirl wrote:We can try, but it's been a while since they actually listened to what fans wanted.

I wonder if we can actually pinpoint the last time they did?

Rob Dylan wrote:

Turbogirl wrote:We can try, but it's been a while since they actually listened to what fans wanted.

I wonder if we can actually pinpoint the last time they did?

"We want more aggressive-looking cars!"
-A whole bunch of fans, 2016

Adelaide was a truly brilliant circuit, one of the best street circuits F1 has seen, but Jeff Kennett and his fat stacks of cash were always going to win Bernie over.

nah, no bias here at all

tommykl wrote:

Rob Dylan wrote:

Turbogirl wrote:We can try, but it's been a while since they actually listened to what fans wanted.

I wonder if we can actually pinpoint the last time they did?

"We want more aggressive-looking cars!"
-A whole bunch of fans, 2016

And we're still waiting for them ever since...

Why do people think their opinion is shared by the entire fanbase and they are speaking for everyone?

- Anonymous Reddit comment from yesterday.

Here's the proposed layout for the (confirmed) Vietnamese GP debuting in 2020 :



Don't see any 90 degree corners, but it does look somewhat of a Formula E-esque layout.

As well as the above, there's some bad news regarding the Lake Torrent track in Northern Ireland :

The developer behind the plans for the multi-million pound Lake Torrent project in County Tyrone, Northern Ireland, has gone into receivership.

According to Companies House records, Manna Developments Ltd went into receivership on 22 October which may be a fatal blow to the proposed circuit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/northern-ireland/45966820

madmark1974 wrote:As well as the above, there's some bad news regarding the Lake Torrent track in Northern Ireland :

The developer behind the plans for the multi-million pound Lake Torrent project in County Tyrone, Northern Ireland, has gone into receivership.

According to Companies House records, Manna Developments Ltd went into receivership on 22 October which may be a fatal blow to the proposed circuit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/northern-ireland/45966820

Has the proposed Circuit of Wales given up the ghost yet?

madmark1974 wrote:Don't see any 90 degree corners, but it does look somewhat of a Formula E-esque layout.

And you weren't the only one to think that. There's a hint of Sochi about it as well, with the perfectly-circular piece cut out of the shape like a jigsaw puzzle.

dr-baker wrote:

madmark1974 wrote:As well as the above, there's some bad news regarding the Lake Torrent track in Northern Ireland :

The developer behind the plans for the multi-million pound Lake Torrent project in County Tyrone, Northern Ireland, has gone into receivership.

According to Companies House records, Manna Developments Ltd went into receivership on 22 October which may be a fatal blow to the proposed circuit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/northern-ireland/45966820

Has the proposed Circuit of Wales given up the ghost yet?

This is the most recent update I've found - plans for the track have been scrapped, and plans to build other things in the area are not proving popular :

A spokesman for the Cardiff Capital Region (CCR), which is considering the future of the site in Ebbw Vale, said: “We are aware there has been expressions of interest by a new backer relating to this site. The CCR has always said it would consider any proposal to develop this site if it was suitable to do so and the investment was deemed viable.”

https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/16348063.concerns-circuit-of-wales-replacement-scheme-will-include-a-casino-are-denied/

FOM Sends warning to historical circuits.

http://espn.com/f1/story/_/id/25205811/ ... c-circuits

Well. Try an F1 season without Silverstone and Monza, and see what happens. Hopefully the fans desert F1 in droves.