"TEAM LOTUS" will come back !

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 01 Jul 2010, 21:14

As the title says, does anyone here know why Lotus Racing does not use Lotus' own logo. Every other carmake in F1 does use the carmakers logo, why not Lotus?

noisebox · Post by **noisebox** » 01 Jul 2010, 21:18

Myrvold wrote:As the title says, does anyone here know why Lotus Racing does not use Lotus' own logo. Every other carmake in F1 does use the carmakers logo, why not Lotus?

They are nothing to do with Lotus cars.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 01 Jul 2010, 21:41

But Proton does sponsor them?

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 01 Jul 2010, 23:17

Myrvold wrote:But Proton does sponsor them?

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 02 Jul 2010, 00:06

Ye? The Lotus Racing is a Proton logo upside down... But still not a answer on why they don't use the classic Lotus logo. After all Proton does own Lotus. I just don't get it.

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 02 Jul 2010, 00:19

I'd guess because some "old-school" Lotus fans would go ballistic. It must be a real pain in the back to sort out all the hate mail and letter bombs, so I'd understand why they wouldn't do this. :mrgreen:

coops · Post by **coops** » 02 Jul 2010, 06:35

Maybe the Chapman family still retain some control on the logo and where it gets used?

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 02 Jul 2010, 16:07

Got an answer on facebook, saying that the team is really 1Malaysian F1, and Proton has allowd them to run with the Lotus name, despite not being involved in the team.
Still doesn't explain it all, but maybe something. Anyone have some contacts to contact regarding this?

Ulfuls · Post by **Ulfuls** » 02 Jul 2010, 16:17

It has to do with what happened to the assets from the old Team Lotus when it disintegrated in 1994. Although the trade-mark rights to the Lotus ACBC badge is owned in the UK by Group Lotus (and ultimately Proton) for use on road cars, the ACBC badge when used in connexion with F1, and the TEAM LOTUS trade-mark itself, were owned by the racing team. When Team Lotus fell apart, the assets, including the trade-marks, were ultimately purchased by Team Lotus Ventures Limited, controlled I believe by David Hunt, which continues to own them today.

So notwithstanding that Proton owns the ACBC badge for road cars, and is connected with Lotus Racing, the ACBC badge for F1 is owned by someone else, and as yet no deal has been done to bring the two together.

Pedestrian · Post by **Pedestrian** » 02 Jul 2010, 17:10

Ulfuls wrote:So notwithstanding that Proton owns the ACBC badge for road cars, and is connected with Lotus Racing, the ACBC badge for F1 is owned by someone else, and as yet no deal has been done to bring the two together.

So would it be possible for the current team Lotus to use the ACBC badge for road cars on their racing cars?

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 02 Jul 2010, 17:13

Pedestrian wrote:
Ulfuls wrote:So notwithstanding that Proton owns the ACBC badge for road cars, and is connected with Lotus Racing, the ACBC badge for F1 is owned by someone else, and as yet no deal has been done to bring the two together.

So would it be possible for the current team Lotus to use the ACBC badge for road cars on their racing cars?

He was happy enough for Litespeed to use it, so I'd guess that for The Right Price, he'd be only too happy to oblige.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 02 Jul 2010, 19:42

Well, Litespeed got the permission to use it. And 1Malaysian F1 took effectively over Litespeeds effort to get in F1, Gascoyne was planned to head Litespeeds effort to.
And besides, Litespeed does run in Lotus colours in F3? There is some connection between the two.

Ulfuls · Post by **Ulfuls** » 05 Jul 2010, 14:46

Jordan192 wrote:
Pedestrian wrote:
Ulfuls wrote:So notwithstanding that Proton owns the ACBC badge for road cars, and is connected with Lotus Racing, the ACBC badge for F1 is owned by someone else, and as yet no deal has been done to bring the two together.

So would it be possible for the current team Lotus to use the ACBC badge for road cars on their racing cars?

He was happy enough for Litespeed to use it, so I'd guess that for The Right Price, he'd be only too happy to oblige.

I suspect The Right Price is what it comes down to -- but fixing The Right Price is a little tough. Hunt may think that the more successful Lotus Racing becomes, the more they need the ACBC badge, and so the higher the price should be -- but on the other hand, as Lotus Racing starts fighting for points, Clive Chapman grows associated with them in the public mind, and more people start thinking of them as the de facto successors to the original Team Lotus, Hunt's ownership of the ACBC badge will start to be worth very little. It's not like he will be able to start up an F1 team called Lotus himself.

Hunt's trade-mark registration for the ACBC badge and the TEAM LOTUS mark applies strictly to F1 as I recall -- which explains why it is able to be used in lower formulae, on Takuma Sato's Indycar, etc.

Ulfuls · Post by **Ulfuls** » 12 Jul 2010, 20:49

Well, according to Adam Cooper, Tony Fernandes is in final negotiations with David Hunt to buy the Team Lotus name and the CABC badge (and presumably a skip full of 1994-vintage F1 bits and bobs). Which is good news if it happens -- that really will tie up all the threads of the original Team Lotus.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 12 Jul 2010, 21:27

Indeed, the BBC has picked up on that along with rumours persisting about an engine deal with Renault for next year. Now all we need is JPS back and a lovely black and gold scheme and suddenly we'll be feeling all mid-80s once again, expecially if Ferrari continue with their 'nearly but not quite' midfield performances! :lol:

Here's the link to the BBC article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8808856.stm

Post by **mario** » 14 Jul 2010, 09:07

AndreaModa wrote:Indeed, the BBC has picked up on that along with rumours persisting about an engine deal with Renault for next year. Now all we need is JPS back and a lovely black and gold scheme and suddenly we'll be feeling all mid-80s once again, expecially if Ferrari continue with their 'nearly but not quite' midfield performances!

Here's the link to the BBC article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8808856.stm

So, it looks as if it is true that Lotus have been unhappy with the Cosworth engine, and it makes sense, since Renault have been aiming to increase the number of teams they supply, and have been on a very active sales drive, particularly amongst the new teams.
What is more interesting is a comment within that article about funding

The new Lotus team is already being treated by F1 authorities as a continuation of the former one, which was set up by the legendary Colin Chapman, earning prize and appearance money on the basis of Team Lotus's historic results.

Now that is a surprise, as I would have thought that FOM would treat the Lotus team as a new entry - but it should mean that Lotus will benefit considerably from this, because the payments from FOM increase for teams with a historically valuable name, like Ferrari, Mclaren and Williams (in recognition of the higher brand value of those team names).

Now, with a works Renault engine, and strong financial support from FOM, it looks as if the Lotus team are going to be able to drag themselves further up the grid next year - and I'd be pleased about that, because the team genuinely seems to have greater aspirations compared to Virgin Racing and Hispania (whilst Lotus are talking of catching the midfield, the other two new teams are merely talking about making it through to the end of the season, and beating each other).
That said, if we do get Lotus-Renault, might Gascoyne and Fernandes be tempted to hire Bruno Senna? The combination of the historic Lotus-Renault name, alongside that of Senna - surely that would be tempting for a few sponsors?

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 14 Jul 2010, 09:19

But both Kovy and Trulli both have multi-year contracts don't they? (Not that it really means all that much in Modern F1)

And personally I think Senna should replace Schumacher at Mercedes but knowing Ross Brawn that's never going to happen.

Post by **mario** » 14 Jul 2010, 09:56

Wizzie wrote:But both Kovy and Trulli both have multi-year contracts don't they? (Not that it really means all that much in Modern F1)

And personally I think Senna should replace Schumacher at Mercedes but knowing Ross Brawn that's never going to happen.

Not only Ross Brawn - I strongly suspect that the senior managers at Mercedes (who are, after all, the principal shareholders, and have a big influence in the commercial side of the team) would have a major say in driver recruitment - after all, signing up Schumacher did help Mercedes attract a number of sponsors before the season began (although, with their very inconsistant form, I wonder how many of those sponsors are regretting their decision).
Yes, I am well aware that it would have been Bruno Senna, and not Rubens, had Honda stayed in for one more year, but I would suggest that Mercedes may well turn him down for the very same reason Brawn turned him down in 2009; sheer inexperience. Brawn strikes me as the sort of man who prefers veteran drivers, rather than the sort of man who would have willingly chosen a relative unknown and take a risk (even now, given how poor the HRT is, and the problems the team had, his current performance is still not that srong an indication of his true potential).

As for the contracts, I agree that it wouldn't be trivial to remove either Heikki or Trulli, as Lotus would have to buy them out of their contracts. Out of the two of them, I would personally be inclined to keep Heikki (I think that he has taken well to the challenge of building up the team), but Trulli may be vulnerable if he has a few weak races.

I agree, however, that the possibility of Senna to Lotus was more of a theoretical consideration, and probably unlikely - after all, we have no guarantee that Senna will even be in F1 next year, if Hispania choose to dump him in favour of a pay driver, or the team folds due to a lack of funds. I was mainly speculating how much the combination of Lotus-Renault and the Senna name might be worth in terms of sponsor interest.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 14 Jul 2010, 12:45

Excellent point about the Lotus-Renault combo Mario, it just goes to show the power of established names and franchises, last year's new team selection process featured not just the Lotus entry, but entries from teams wshing to use the Brabham, and even March names, so it is easy to see what they were trying to latch onto.

I must say in all this however I feel sorry for the Virgin team, they've made a real go of it gaining sponsors, and putting out a professional image, despite the setback of the fuel tank. Hopefully Branson sits tight for two more seasons at least to give the team a chance of actually developing and progressing. An unnoticed feature of the British GP was the progress made by Virgin, Glock was battling with the Lotuses for the whole race, despite ending up behind both. With HRT bringing little or no development to the car, Virgin has an opportunity to really pull away from them and start to challenge Lotus once more now the fuel tank saga is out of the way.

Something else I've just considered about the potential deal between Lotus and Renault is the position of Williams. It wasn't that long ago the rumours were flying round about Williams taking delivery of Renault engines next year, but that seems to have been ruled out. Assuming Cosworth remain as one of the weaker engines on the grid, Williams really will be vulnerable in that respect. Of course that's assuming that the current efforts of Cosworth to improve the engine come to nothing which I highly doubt.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 14 Jul 2010, 13:10

AndreaModa wrote:It wasn't that long ago the rumours were flying round about Williams taking delivery of Renault engines next year, but that seems to have been ruled out.

I'm pretty sure Williams confirmed they were staying with Cosworth next season. That being said though I really wanted them with the Renault engines if only for the nostalgic value :mrgreen:

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 12 Sep 2010, 17:03

Ulfuls wrote:Well, according to Adam Cooper, Tony Fernandes is in final negotiations with David Hunt to buy the Team Lotus name and the CABC badge (and presumably a skip full of 1994-vintage F1 bits and bobs). Which is good news if it happens -- that really will tie up all the threads of the original Team Lotus.

A deal now apparently concluded....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 991990.stm

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 12 Sep 2010, 17:58

Wizzie wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:It wasn't that long ago the rumours were flying round about Williams taking delivery of Renault engines next year, but that seems to have been ruled out.

I'm pretty sure Williams confirmed they were staying with Cosworth next season. That being said though I really wanted them with the Renault engines if only for the nostalgic value

Along with Canon & Camel sponsorship deals. Adrian Newey would be tempted back, and Hulkenberg would be contractually forced to grow a 'tache.

f1-gast · Post by **f1-gast** » 13 Sep 2010, 07:37

I don't know why they use.
Lotus team got the connection with the Lotus family (the suns of Chapman).
But fürther i dunno why it isnt ?

Pacific did have the lotus logo on their car (on the front-wing) back in 1995

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 22 Sep 2010, 15:54

I have now seen reported that Group Lotus (The Malaysian AKA Proton owned Co.) are not happy with Fernandes use of the Lotus name despite him acquiring the rights form David Hunt. Group Lotus have recently aligned themselves with ART in GP2 & GP3 in which Fernandes also has an entry under the Airline banner.
Apparently Group Lotus are (more than) considering legal action to stop Fernandes using the name.
As I type this a tweet from an ex F1 driver has appeared in the corner of the screen saying the same thing.
It's going to be a long close season, at this rate.

Post by **mario** » 22 Sep 2010, 19:52

eagleash wrote:I have now seen reported that Group Lotus (The Malaysian AKA Proton owned Co.) are not happy with Fernandes use of the Lotus name despite him acquiring the rights form David Hunt. Group Lotus have recently aligned themselves with ART in GP2 & GP3 in which Fernandes also has an entry under the Airline banner.
Apparently Group Lotus are (more than) considering legal action to stop Fernandes using the name.
As I type this a tweet from an ex F1 driver has appeared in the corner of the screen saying the same thing.
It's going to be a long close season, at this rate.

Well, it's been taken up by various blogs around the place, and it seems that Group Lotus have actually launched legal proceedings to acquire the "Team Lotus" name, logos and assorted intellectual property rights (Joe Saward - sorry to the Captain if he is reading this - mentions that they have started three separate cases against Lotus Racing).

However, looking at the history of the Team Lotus name, it looks as if, legally speaking, Group Lotus don't have any claim to the "Team Lotus" name, despite the fact that they have tried to get the UK Intellectual Property Office to not only give them the right to the name, but to let them use the "Team Lotus" name for almost anything you could affix the logo to (especially memorabilia). See Adam Cooper's blog here http://adamcooperf1.com/2010/09/22/batt ... otus-name/ for more information, and the trademark application by Group Lotus - as he suggests, this expression of interest, coupled to their co-operation with ART in GP2 and GP3, strongly suggests that Group Lotus is looking at an F1 entry (presumably as a title sponsor to ART, who we know have already expressed an interest in F1).

Saward gives a summary of the legal position of each side, and the history of the Team Lotus name. Team Lotus starts operations in 1954 (although Chapman founded Lotus Engineering in 1952), whilst Group Lotus does not come into existence until 1958, after a re-organisation of the Lotus Engineering company. Crucially, from the start, Team Lotus was an independent company from Group Lotus, with Group Lotus producing road cars and Team Lotus operating race cars.

Now, both companies had to be re-organised again in 1982, following Chapman's death, with Group Lotus being publicly listed on the stock market, with General Motors taking a 91% stake in 1986, before selling the company onto Romano Artioli (an Italian businessman), who in turn sold Group Lotus to Proton,the current owners, in 1996.
Meanwhile, Team Lotus remained under the control of the Chapman family, under the guise of Team Lotus International Ltd., with the "Team Lotus" name trademarked in 1988. In 1990, Peter Collins and Peter Wright, former employees, took over the F1 team, with the company now being called Team Lotus Ltd., and they ran the company until 1994, when the company and the F1 team went into administration. At this point, a company called Paintglossy Ltd. (which we now know as Team Lotus Ventures Ltd.) purchased the intellectual property rights of "Team Lotus", including the trademarks and logos. Incidentally, it is through this company where David Hunt - brother of James Hunt - became linked to the "Team Lotus" name.

Now, this is the critical part - in 1998, Group Lotus, a.k.a. Proton, took Team Lotus Ventures Ltd. (TLV Ltd.) to court, claiming that Group Lotus had the right to the "Team Lotus" trademark. However, Group Lotus lost the case, and the use of the "Team Lotus" trademark remained with TLV Ltd..
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/09/ ... -malaysia/

So, precedence indicates that Group Lotus can complain all they want, but it seems that they have no legal basis to claim the "Team Lotus" name. Even so, it seems that Proton are hoping that they can force the issue in their favour, especially given their increased interest in motorsport, and given that the value of the brand has been sharply rising, following Fernandes's exploits, they probably scent a chance to cash in big time on the Lotus name.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 22 Sep 2010, 20:55

Yep my info came from Joe.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 22 Sep 2010, 21:40

Why can't the world be all happy and smiling and just let Group Lotus form a partnership with Tony Fernandes? Why the need to go seperately and create all this mess...

Post by **mario** » 22 Sep 2010, 21:46

AndreaModa wrote:Why can't the world be all happy and smiling and just let Group Lotus form a partnership with Tony Fernandes? Why the need to go seperately and create all this mess...

I really wish that they could come to some sort of amicable agreement - between this and the Aerolab case, we've had enough of various lawsuits flying about the place.

However, given that Proton failed to win the rights to the "Team Lotus" name in 1998, I can't see what the point of their legal action is, because the courts are almost certainly going to back Fernandes.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 22 Sep 2010, 22:18

There is a precedent in this sort of case I believe where if the name or trademark hasn't been used another party (in this case Lotus Group) can say something to the effect of "hold on you haven't been using the name,why should you now". This however becomes increasingly tedious & complex.

Edit: Made more so in this case by Fernandes using a variation of the name. Winners? Lawyers.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 23 Sep 2010, 00:25

Myrvold wrote:But still not a answer on why they don't use the classic Lotus logo. After all Proton does own Lotus. I just don't get it.

Because they're not affiliated with one another. Tony Fernandes acquired the rights to use the Lotus name, but not their image.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 23 Sep 2010, 00:59

Captain Hammer wrote:
Myrvold wrote:But still not a answer on why they don't use the classic Lotus logo. After all Proton does own Lotus. I just don't get it.

Because they're not affiliated with one another. Tony Fernandes acquired the rights to use the Lotus name, but not their image.

I've kinda got that after all this. Already in July actually!

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 23 Sep 2010, 07:37

Well, the problem is that Lotus Cars are backing ART Grand Prix in GP2, and Lotus Racing are running Team Air Asia. Lotus Cars dispute the idea that Tony Fernandes has the right to use the Lotus name and claim that David Hunt was never in a position to sell the Team Lotus name. It seems to be a passive-aggressive attempt to force Fernandes to stop using the Lotus name, possibly in an attempt to launch a Lotus ART entry in Formula 1 in the near future.

Post by **mario** » 23 Sep 2010, 11:16

Captain Hammer wrote:Well, the problem is that Lotus Cars are backing ART Grand Prix in GP2, and Lotus Racing are running Team Air Asia. Lotus Cars dispute the idea that Tony Fernandes has the right to use the Lotus name and claim that David Hunt was never in a position to sell the Team Lotus name. It seems to be a passive-aggressive attempt to force Fernandes to stop using the Lotus name, possibly in an attempt to launch a Lotus ART entry in Formula 1 in the near future.

With a heavier emphasis on the aggressive side, it seems...

f1-gast · Post by **f1-gast** » 24 Sep 2010, 07:39

Team Lotus to return in F1
24 September 2010

Lotus Racing announced on Friday at that it will change its name to Team Lotus from 2011. The migration from Lotus Racing to Team Lotus will take place over the coming months and the renamed team will be the direct successor to the iconic previous incarnation of Team Lotus when they take to the track in the 2011 Formula One World Championship and beyond.

Tony Fernandes and Kamarudin Meranun’s Tune Group has acquired Team Lotus Ventures Ltd, the company led by David Hunt since Team Lotus was last on track, and through that agreement now has full ownership of the historic rights and goodwill of the Team Lotus brand and heritage.

Tony Fernandes, Lotus Racing Team Principal, is delighted that the hard work that has been going on behind the scenes to make this acquisition can now be announced, saying: “Kamarudin, Nasa and I are absolutely delighted to have completed this transaction - It’s difficult to express just what it means to us to now be able to say we are Team Lotus, one of the most iconic names in any form of sport worldwide, but we have been working very hard to make this dream come true, and today it has.

“We are very excited about now taking over the brand and after our first year in Formula One, we believe we are ready to do justice to the legacy we have inherited. These are heady days for Team Lotus, and it will be a very exciting process for the team we have in place to help us achieve our goals, on and off track.

“It was always important to us that Lotus Racing and Team Lotus could be brought together to unite the past and the present, and now we have done so. We have enjoyed a successful first year as Lotus Racing, and our thanks go to Proton, Group Lotus and all our partners for the parts they have played in our year as Lotus Racing. But now we move on to a new chapter, and as Team Lotus we will be an even more potent force, both on and off track. Everyone associated with the team is looking forward to the challenges that lie ahead – even more so now we will be bringing back one of the most loved, revered and respected names in motor racing history. A new dream starts today – Team Lotus is back.”

David Hunt, who has overseen the negotiations with Tony and his team, has been Managing Director of Team Lotus since 1994. He revealed his feelings about returning Britain’s greatest motor racing name to Formula 1, saying: “I’m delighted this day has finally arrived. In January 1995, when I had the simply awful task of making the loyal Team Lotus personnel redundant, I promised them, the fans and the media that somehow we would return Team Lotus to F1™ in good order and properly funded. We had no idea of the huge difficulties we would have to overcome when I made that statement.

“Nevertheless, I simply would not allow the legacy of Colin Chapman’s extraordinary achievements to die and I want publicly to thank the many loyal individuals who have worked to reach what sometimes seemed an impossible goal. The custodianship of the iconic brand and history now passes from me to Tony, Kamarudin and Nasa. In relinquishing this responsibility I am confident I am handing over to a team who have the financial resources, passion, energy, vision and long-term commitment to give Team Lotus the best possible chance of returning to the sharp end of the grid."

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2432 ... urn-in-f1/

This shows that Lotus will stay a long time in the formula 1, and their serious about their F1 vision not like HRT or Virgin.

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 24 Sep 2010, 07:49

Do I detect some sarcasm?

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 24 Sep 2010, 07:59

f1-gast wrote:This shows that Lotus will stay a long time in the formula 1, and their serious about their F1 vision not like HRT or Virgin.

Sorry, but I reject the notion that Virgin and Hispania aren't in it for the long haul. Just because they have small budgets, it doesn't mean they won't be sticking around for as long as they can.

f1-gast · Post by **f1-gast** » 24 Sep 2010, 08:25

What i ment with Virgin and HRT is that they don't take it that seriously well Virgin probably does but it's still like hmm wel where in the f1 woehoe.
And HRT no words.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 24 Sep 2010, 10:54

Captain Hammer wrote:
f1-gast wrote:This shows that Lotus will stay a long time in the formula 1, and their serious about their F1 vision not like HRT or Virgin.

Sorry, but I reject the notion that Virgin and Hispania aren't in it for the long haul. Just because they have small budgets, it doesn't mean they won't be sticking around for as long as they can.

Virgin can stick around for some time, but Hispania simply doesn't have the resources to guarantee that.
As for the news, I'm really happy, because now I can fully support Lotus Racing knowing they will be an official continuation of Team Lotus, even if their driving pair is uninspiring at best (yet Kovalainen's season is being quite good).

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 24 Sep 2010, 10:59

There's still the unresolved question of Group Lotus' (Proton) threat of legal action, as mentioned in the "Lotus Logo" thread.

madmark1974 · Post by **madmark1974** » 24 Sep 2010, 11:08

At the Classic Team Lotus Festival at Snetterton earlier this year, the current team was also present.

Details of what was there : http://www.lotus-festival.com/.

I was there with my Dad and my son. It was good.

I'm not signed up to any internet photo sites so can't share any pics with you at the moment, but there are a few vids on YouTube, such as this one :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmoVraTe248