U.S.A and F1 are incompatible (Editorial)

[Stormwind]

There are still talks of a United States based Formula 1 team that is of course advertising an all American crew, drivers and ,undoubtedly , car. As hopeful as Bernie and Max are to break into the crumbling U.S. market even after the failed venture with Indianapolis (Indygate 2005 anyone?) This is really, I can't think of a better way to put it, a dumb idea. The Americans and Formula 1 go as well together as petrol and a cream slice. Even Scott Speed's tenure at Toro Russo didn't make the Americans budge towards Formula 1. Why is this? It's simple, the mentalities are quite different, and history attests to that.

First off, The United States is perhaps one of the most isolationist countries in the world. This world view, or lack of I should say, is taught to children with every new generation. Even their sports are isolated. The two big American series, NASCAR and IRL race 99% of the time on U.S. tracks, most of which are ovals with race circuits only grudgingly being introduced very recently, and still form a very small part of their calender. Prior to this, Both of these series raced exclusively on oval tracks, all of which on U.S. soil. The majority of their drivers are American as well, and foreign drivers are usually not from far off lands, mostly consisting of Canadians, Mexicans and Brazilians. There's the odd Japanese driver but that about sums it up the diversity in U.S. Motorsport. Even lap times are measured differently, U.S. Motorsport measure lap times in average speed rather then the time in the lap, Naturally still using the imperial MPH measurement for that speed which only the U.S. still uses. The reason why Oval track racing is so beloved in the U.S. is because of the frequent overtaking and rather spectacular crashes. It's often seen, fans cheering when they see a crash taking place in NASCAR and IRL. A final point is the failure of CART (Champ Car), the fans seem to have voted with their money with ChampCar having shone a superior quality of racing and skill from drivers, yet they still got the big ugly axe with IRL winning the North American Open Wheel war (much to my dismay). It's quite clear, Few Ovals (later on just one or two), very few American Drivers (Jimmy Vasser and A.J. Allmendinger are the only ones who come to mind.) Champ Car was perhaps the most Formula 1esque of American Motorsport and it utterly went belly up and sank.

The U.S. Market is a lost cause in every way for Formula 1. Practically, financially, even spectacle wise. Indianpolis was tired and now it's gone, the apathy shown by the U.S. should be telling enough. There are few in the U.S. who don't know who Dale Earndhart was, there are very few who know who Michael Schumacher is, Or Alain Prost. Simply put, they believe they are the pinnacle of the world, therefor their motorsport is also the pinnacle in their minds. Companies know (especially in today's economic slump) just how much Americans don't care for Formula 1. I've talked to quite a few Americans and most don't even know what Formula 1 is, yet they all knew what NASCAR is. That's why U.S. based companies Sponsor NASCAR and wouldn't even give Formula 1 a passing thought. A USF1 team will have to look for Non-U.S. companies for sponsorship and it defeats the purpose of an all American Formula 1 team.

Lastly, the drivers. very few American drivers race constantly on a racing circuit. They're trained and become used to the high speed Ovals. Even IRL cars are built very differently to Formula 1 cars, they're heavier for starters. Even with the return to slicks in Formula 1, the cars weigh half as much as an IRL machine. Even turning right is something they'll have to train for.

What it boils down to really, is that USF1 is a complete waste of resources and time. And as rude as it is to say it, Formula 1 does not need the United States, and vice versa. The lack of fans or even interest from the Americans, the isolationist mentality and financial incompatibility makes the whole idea crumble.

[Captain Hammer]

It's pretty obvious that USGPE is an attempt to go against those trends. I actualy wrote a university paper for a marketing subject on the viability of hosting a round in several countries, including the United States. What I surmised was that the ultimate success or failure of the sport in North America seems to hinge on the success of an American driver and/or a team. The problem here is that the past few drivers who have been Americans has been diappointing at best; Scott Speed and Michael Andretti have been pretty poor showings for the Land of the Brave and Home of the Free. The objective of USGPE is to establish an American-based team (though they will maintain a smaller European base in northern Spain, sharing facilities with Epsilon Euskadi), with an eye to changing the perceptions of Formula One in America.

[dr-baker]

I agree with most of the points made, although I would love to see yet another guarenteed-reject team on the grid (how could they be anything else...!). But just wanted to clarify that the USA is not quite the only country to still use imperial miles per hour. We in the UK do as well...

[Yannick]

First of all, I'd like to say that the US of A aren't the only country where a sport that is highly regarded internationally gets little interest locally. Over here in Germany, there neither rugby nor cricket are of any cultural significance, but rather, hardly there if at all. The 2nd most popular team sport over here, behind soccer/football in P1, has recently become basketball and used to be handball. In the pre-Schumi days, F1 wasn't nearly as popular over here as it is today. The big crowds came only in 1994 when Michael Schumacher started winning. Hence, the F1 careers of the likes of Scott Speed, Michael Andretti and Eddie Cheever did little to neither keep nor get US audiences interested in F1 in the long run, whereas in the latter half of Mario Andretti's F1 career, there even was a season with 3 races in the US. Was Mario Andretti the only former NASCAR driver to become successful in F1 or even the only one to enter F1? His advantage over the kind of drivers who entered F1 coming from American open wheel racing is that he could simply drive everything, whereas the former can only drive spec cars. Just look at who entered F1 coming from CART/ChampCar in the last 20 years. Michael Andretti was used to driving heavy turbo-powered Lolas and having a spotter instead of developing light, traction controlled McLarens and needing to look sideways and into his mirrors because there were no spotters in F1 in the early 90s. Jacques Villeneuve was used to driving the same kind of Reynards, but he got into what was the best car for 5 seasons in succession prior to him entering, whereas when he tried to do it all on his own with BAR in 1999, he was out of his depth. Christiano Da Matta, who also entered F1 coming from ChampCar, was another driver used to spec cars and then finding himself in the overspending environment of Toyota, who tried to compensate for their lack of know-how by investing money in every side road they saw fit. Alessandro Zanardi was also performing much better in spec cars and touring cars than when he had to develop a slightly underpowered car, just like Michael Andretti. Sebastien Bourdais seems to be another example for this trend of spec car drivers VS development drivers. The only exception from this trend in recent years is Juan-Pablo Montoya, who drove DTM before entering ChampCar and now is competent in NASCAR. As his Monaco, Indy 500 and Daytona 24 hours victories have shown, he is very much like Mario Andretti, a guy who can drive everything.
Eddie Cheever went through the Italian "driving schools" and only raced in the US after his F1 career. Scott Speed was picked by Red Bull as the best from their US drivers program to undergo the European "driving school", but in the end, first Tonio Liuzzi and then Sebastian Vettel were both quicker than him in the long run.
NASCAR, being more popular, pulls in young American driving talent early, even more so since the infamous "split" of the open wheel series had happened. So I dare say that without the split, it is rather likely that there would be an at least moderately successful US driver in F1 today.

[noisebox]

I think there have been some drivers who could've cut it in F1 from the US. The most obvious example is Robbie Gordon who tested a Williams a few years back and was quick straight away, but chose to stay in NASCAR. I think it will be even harder now with the testing restrictions for a driver to adapt from indycars to F1, so I don't see anymore coming over for a while.

I think it was a bit harsh to say Villeneuve was out of his depth at BAR in 1999. That car was crap and there wasn't a lot he could do about it. He actually played a part in developing them into quite a respectable outfit in the couple of years following that, and routinely beat his team mates until Button came along. By that point he had lost some speed.

[RejectSteve]

Scott Speed was picked by Red Bull as the best from their US drivers program to undergo the European "driving school", but in the end, first Tonio Liuzzi and then Sebastian Vettel were both quicker than him in the long run.

The Red Bull Driver Search lasted three years, the program ending when Red Bull purchased Minardi and fulfilled the program's goal of getting an American into F1. Two other Americans joined the Red Bull Junior Team over the process, Colin Fleming and John Edwards. Fleming ran in World Series by Renault, underimpressed, and was dismissed halfway through his second season (replaced by Vettel, if I'm not mistaken). Edwards was just 14 when he was taken and ran in Italian ICA karts I believe, not sure what kind of results he pulled in though. They didn't last long in the program and currently there are no Americans involved.

Scott Speed was fast-tracked to F1 though. He wasn't impressive in GP2 and made far too many mistakes at that level. Sure, he devistated the German and Eurocup championships in Formula Renault 2.0 but that did not carry onward. Given more time and he could have been more effective when called up to F1. Would he still be a reject? Maybe, but having a Californian attitude alienated himself from STR and expediated his departure from the grand prix world. The short tenures of the US drivers in Red Bull Junior Team can be a suggestion about the attitude of Americans (in formula racing). Mikhail Aleshin, for example, is in his sixth year in the RBJT, and he's not been the fastest man Red Bull has ever produced.

I can attest to the indifference of F1 in the US. I tried to convince my friends for seven years to head out to Indianapolis for the USGP, but couldn't convince any of them the value of 19,000 rpm engines. By the time I did go, 2007, it was the idea of a Russian friend to go... and Russia doesn't have anybody on the F1 radar, nevermind holding a GP. One thing USGPE should do is change their name, however. Unless they're trying to hit on the F1 Rejects' love of acronyms, the name is meaningless to most people.

For USGPE to become a hit with mainstream Americans, and as a result create a market for F1 in the US, they will need to do something very sensationalist just prior to their debut race to get the attention of the media. However, even that venture would fail. As mentioned above, if it doesn't happen in the US, the US doesn't care. WTCC offers closer racing than NASCAR but has no market at all in the US. "Them guys with the funny names" is used as an excuse. The fact that NASCAR advertisements announce "43 of the world's best drivers" (they have just one, JPM) is vomit-inducing for any actual racing fans. NASCAR is not racing; NASCAR is automotive wrestling. Even IRL is more wrestling than racing.

[PayasYouDNPQ]

FIrst of all, a couple of nitpicky facts:
Indy cars weigh 725 kg on road courses, 695 kg on ovals, compared to the 605kg of F1 cars. So F1 cars are nowhere near half the weight.
The Indy car season has 10 ovals and 7 road/street circuits this year, so the balance is getting closer to 50/50.
Of the drivers, 7 are American, and only 4 are regulars (Andretti, Patrick, Rahal, Carpenter). Also, Brazil is hardly close to the USA, about as close as European countries in fact.

Now, I do agree with some of the OP, but really, the US Grand Prix has a long and successful history (forget Phoenix). The crowds at Indianapolis rivalled most of the other popular Grands Prix. The US is so big that you don't need to reach a majority of people to be a success. As for Americans in F1 to increase interest, that's why I think USF1 (USGPE or whatever they're going to call it) would be good for F1. Apart from having another team potentially on the grid, it gives the Americans something to cheer for.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, there may not be any particular reason to have American involment in F1, but there certainly isn't any reason to deny their envolvment.

[PayasYouDNPQ]

"Them guys with the funny names" is used as an excuse.

I always laugh at that statement. Look at a NASCAR entry list and you have the likes of Brad Keselowski, Reed Sorenson, Joe Nemechek, David Reutimann, AJ Allmendinger et al. Very American eh?

[rffp]

NASCAR is not racing; NASCAR is automotive wrestling. Even IRL is more wrestling than racing.

I couldn't agree more with NASCAR, but I still have hope for IRL, maybe because I was fan of CART in the early 90's.

I know Americans reasonably well and they don't like losing in their own grounds to foreign drivers. Many of them will sulk and decide to ignore the defeats and turn their attention to where Americans are winning. That was IMHO the main reason for the failure of CART and the success of NASCAR. But tehn, which nation likes to lose? In Brazil, autoracing had a huge peak of interest in the early 90's, but because there was a pilot that the Brazilians could cheer for. I remember in 1994 when Senna spun off in the Brazilian GP, the fans left Interlagos despite Barrichello driving to a solid 4th in the Jordan. It showed that the average fan liked Senna and not necessarily F-1. After Senna's death, many forfeited F-1 after that, only to regain the interest to make jokes about Barrichello or to support Massa in the last years. As American drivers failed in F-1 and there was no one to cheer for, they turned their attention to the local racing. As CART was taken by assault by Brazilian and European drivers, even by F-1 rejects, the Americans decided to go somewhere else. This attitude is not exclusive to the USA, but they are able to create their own successful profitable all-American category, whereas Brazil for example cannot! I would like to know for instance if F-1 is popular nowadays in France? Or if it was popular 4 years ago in Poland? So maybe, they are not the only "sore losers" in the world!

On the other hand, as someone pointed out, USA is big. It is the 3rd largest country in population, so if 10% of them care in the future for F-1, it will be a very respectable market. Right now, it seems like a Herculean job to make F-1 slightly popular there. They would need to see an American win in F-1, which seems highly unlikely now. Their talents decide nowadays to play "bump cars" in NASCAR, which I think is a Mickey Mouse category, and forfeit open-wheel racing. Danica Patrick was the best placed American in the 2008 IRL season, which attest to the problem they face in open wheel racing - not criticising female drivers, only the vane and nonfocused ones. If by a haphazard, an American driver is successful in F-1, we might see changes, but that might take a generation to happen.

[Salamander]

I think there have been some drivers who could've cut it in F1 from the US. The most obvious example is Robbie Gordon who tested a Williams a few years back and was quick straight away, but chose to stay in NASCAR.

You sure you aren't confusing Robbie with Jeff? Robbie Gordon was nowhere even in IndyCars, and I can remember Jeff Gordon driving JPM's Williams and vice versa at Indy a few years back. Only problem with him was I think he'd already signed a lifetime contract by that point.

[thehemogoblin]

American fans would be instantly interested if the team signed Danica Patrick.


It's amazing, the allure of the female body.

[Faustus]

I think there have been some drivers who could've cut it in F1 from the US. The most obvious example is Robbie Gordon who tested a Williams a few years back and was quick straight away, but chose to stay in NASCAR.

You sure you aren't confusing Robbie with Jeff? Robbie Gordon was nowhere even in IndyCars, and I can remember Jeff Gordon driving JPM's Williams and vice versa at Indy a few years back. Only problem with him was I think he'd already signed a lifetime contract by that point.

I beg to differ. Robbie Gordon was definitely not 'nowhere even in Indycars'. He won 2 races, was very competitive in lots more and was one the best road circuit drivers in America, as evidenced by his 4 consecutive Daytona 24 Hour and 3 consecutive Sebring 12 Hour class wins. His career petered after the Ford engine became uncompetitive against the Toyota and Honda engines.

[Salamander]

I think there have been some drivers who could've cut it in F1 from the US. The most obvious example is Robbie Gordon who tested a Williams a few years back and was quick straight away, but chose to stay in NASCAR.

You sure you aren't confusing Robbie with Jeff? Robbie Gordon was nowhere even in IndyCars, and I can remember Jeff Gordon driving JPM's Williams and vice versa at Indy a few years back. Only problem with him was I think he'd already signed a lifetime contract by that point.

I beg to differ. Robbie Gordon was definitely not 'nowhere even in Indycars'. He won 2 races, was very competitive in lots more and was one the best road circuit drivers in America, as evidenced by his 4 consecutive Daytona 24 Hour and 3 consecutive Sebring 12 Hour class wins. His career petered after the Ford engine became uncompetitive against the Toyota and Honda engines.

Well, maybe my view of him is a little coloured by the fact that I never really liked the guy, and I remember him crashing on a regular basis. That and the fact that he pulled out of the IRL after complaining that Danica Patrick had an unfair advantage because she weighed 100 pounds less than him. Never knew he raced in sportscars, though.

[bduddy]

I beg to differ. Robbie Gordon was definitely not 'nowhere even in Indycars'. He won 2 races, was very competitive in lots more and was one the best road circuit drivers in America, as evidenced by his 4 consecutive Daytona 24 Hour and 3 consecutive Sebring 12 Hour class wins. His career petered after the Ford engine became uncompetitive against the Toyota and Honda engines.

Well, maybe my view of him is a little coloured by the fact that I never really liked the guy, and I remember him crashing on a regular basis. That and the fact that he pulled out of the IRL after complaining that Danica Patrick had an unfair advantage because she weighed 100 pounds less than him. Never knew he raced in sportscars, though.

A quick perusal of his stats shows he crashed around 2 times/season, which I don't think is more then anyone else. And his last year was in 1999, long before Danica came over, so I don't know where you're getting that from. I think the operant statement here is just that you don't like him... and yes, the original statement obvious is referring to Jeff Gordon, who is unrelated.

He also drove Toyota engines for his last two seasons, but I don't think those were too competitive either...

[RejectSteve]

A quick perusal of his stats shows he crashed around 2 times/season, which I don't think is more then anyone else. And his last year was in 1999, long before Danica came over, so I don't know where you're getting that from. I think the operant statement here is just that you don't like him... and yes, the original statement obvious is referring to Jeff Gordon, who is unrelated.

Gordon was considering a run at Indy but then was discouraged due to the regulation stating that cars are weighed without drivers, thus giving advantage to smaller drivers like Patrick. Gordon became fairly large since he got into stock cars, but he's won in just about everything he's driven - including off road trucks. Patrick is not a special driver and while possibly a fit for USGPE, would scream rejectdom from rooftops. I'd bet any money that F2 driver Natacha Gachnang would put Patrick in her dust.

[Fitch]

WARNING: this post is a very Scattered reply to the Original Post....You've been Warned.....


#1 NASCAR has ALWAYS Raced on Road Courses......they may only be 2 or so races out of each season, but they still have always raced on them.

and I find the Original post to be a roundabout way of saying Americans Suck without actually saying it...........Very Few American drivers race on a Racing Circuit??.........Off the top of your head think of the Biggest 4 races in the United States.....Rolex24, Daytona 500, Sebring and Indianapolis 500...............2 of those are Road Course races.......Ever heard of ALMS, GrandAm, SCCA??..........The SCCA has more members then ANY other sanctioning body in the United States........

Indianapolis is not, nor was it ever "tired"...........Indy had ONE bad year....and that was the fault of the Tire companies....The only reason we haven't been back to Indy is because Bernie Eccelstone feels that HE NEEDS $25million from a track so they can host a race, and then whatever the Purse money and FIA Fees are.......

You also must not be much of an F1 fan if you Claim American Companies have No interest in F1...........Let's see here........Mobil1, Hilton Hotels, FedEx, Intel all are Associate sponsors of various F1 teams....AT&T is Primary sponsor of Williams, and then there's one more who is it...hmm...big Red Car.....Oh yeah Marlboro are the sponsor of...Scuderia Marlboro Ferrari(or however the hell it's worded)......Marlboro...thats some English dude right?...well yeah but it's also a brand name owned by Phillip Morris...an AMERICAN Company...............The AMERICAN Sponsors are there.......You just have to get them aboard......

Champ Car went belly up because of Poor Management and partially because of the Open Wheel Split, NOT because Americans hate Road Racing.......

Also, you apperantly DON'T watch ANY Us Motorsports.......I know of NO Motorsport that measures Lap times in Average Speed......when it comes to laps and qualifying it's TIMED just like Everywhere else.........Some series will through the Average Speed up there as an afterthought...but it's no different then F1 posting Speed Trap Speeds........and what in the Hell does MPH have to do with anything??........

because of the frequent overtaking

Imagine that people watching a RACE to see people RACING!!!!

[StoneColdSpider]

CART started to die when Honda and Toyota left the series
after Honda Engines(i think it was Honda or Toyota but im sure it was Honda)
where found to b in breach of the rules
and CART decided to make it a 1 engine series in which Ford won the contract
and all the good teams left CART and joined IRL (Penskie, Chip Ganassi, Team Kool Green and others)
not the mention some of the stupid rules they made like forcing teams to pit every 20-30laps and other rules that killed any pit strategy at all.....
in the end it was managment that killed CART
in all honestly i thought they had a much better product than IRL

it was a sad end for CART... in the late 90's CART was very very popular
and honeslty i think it should have won the war...

[Stormwind]

CART started to die when Honda and Toyota left the series
after Honda Engines(i think it was Honda or Toyota but im sure it was Honda)
where found to b in breach of the rules
and CART decided to make it a 1 engine series in which Ford won the contract
and all the good teams left CART and joined IRL (Penskie, Chip Ganassi, Team Kool Green and others)
not the mention some of the stupid rules they made like forcing teams to pit every 20-30laps and other rules that killed any pit strategy at all.....
in the end it was managment that killed CART
in all honestly i thought they had a much better product than IRL

it was a sad end for CART... in the late 90's CART was very very popular
and honeslty i think it should have won the war...

Still, what makes or breaks any series are the fans. Putting buttocks in the grand stands and on couches to watch it on TV, IRL was getting alot more viewers in the United States then CART / Champcar and ultimately led to it's demise. The rule changes, manufacturers and to a good degree, management are somewhat moot as to survive, they need people willing to spend money. To see races and to buy stuff that they see sponsored on the cars.

[Robbie]

American fans would be instantly interested if the team signed Danica Patrick.


It's amazing, the allure of the female body.

And Flav could hire his ex, Heidi Klum, to replace Piquet at Renault.

I would have zero interest in it besides idle curiosity of seeing how well they did, but it would indeed attract attention. Not like the IRL's getting any attention this year, its TV figures are nil...

[Ridge Racer]

I don't think that it has anything to do with F1 being "Too European" but has more to do with the lack of a larger than life American driver who is successful in the series.

There hasn't been an American Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna or Micheal Schumacher yet in the current era of F1, Mario Andertti doesn't count because he is a naturalized American (he was born in Italy) and most of the other American drivers who have been in the series were to be honest a sad joke in some way shape or form.

Eddie Cheever: may have come out of the european system but never really had a chance to show how good he was because of the fact he was stuck in many second rate teams (except Ligier which was a first rate team with a fifth rate car in 1982) or he played second fiddle within the good teams he was with (Renault 1983) to better drivers like Prost .

Danny Sullivan: didn't have a chance and was only brought into F1 to fulfill an american sponsors desire to have an american driver in the car they were sponsoring.

Michael Andretti: A legend in his own mind who just wasn't any good in F1, who may have been a multiple champion in Indy Cars,because of that he thought in his own arrogant way that he would just have success handed too him by Ron Dennis and Mclaren so he didn't like to try his best or give the commitment needed to win, he liked to make excuses for his own poor showings along with crying to anyone who would listen about how unfairly he was being treated by his team and the media, Is it any wounder why Alain Prost has said that he hated being Andretti's teammate and couldn't stand being around him and from what I understand Ron Dennis to this day doesn't want anything to do with him.

Scott Speed just couldn't cut it, personally I think he's better suited to a series like Nascar or the IRL.

Even here In Canada there have been two great drivers from the same family who in their own respective eras ignited the interest of hundreds of thousands of Canadian F1 fans and the Canadian Grand Prix has always been well attended.

I woke up at four in the morning every sunday there was a race during 1996-97 (I was thirteen years old) to watch Jacques Villeneuve race and make history as the first Canadian driver to take the rookie of the year title and the next year win the world championship.

If an American driver with the talent of a Prost Senna or Schumacher and the larger than life personality of somebody like James Hunt or Ayrton Senna himself were to join the series with a top team and start winning and the US Grand Prix was held at a proper track (Leguna Seca, Sears Point, Watkins Glen) I can guarantee there would be a huge demand for F1 in the states.

"You've been Thundersrtuck"
(AC/DC)

[DonTirri]

I don't think that it has anything to do with F1 being "Too European" but has more to do with the lack of a larger than life American driver who is successful in the series.

Exactly. That alone is a reason why its not popular in US, and also why it hasn't been as popular as it is now in many countries.

F1 wasn't that popular in Germany when the best German driver out there was someone like Bernd Schneider or Christian Danner, but when Michael Schumacher stepped to the scene and won a championship, the popularity skyrocketed.

Formula one was barely known in Finland, until Keke Rosberg came and won the championship, and the popularity skyrocketed when Mika Häkkinen won the title.

Despite holding a Grand Prix for god knows how long, Spain wasn't really into F1 until Fernando Alonso came along.

F1 was huge in France as long as they got their Arnouxs, Prosts, Pironis, Panis's etc to cheer for, but when the French drivers stopped being succesfull, the interest died, which lead to no french GP.

F1 wasn't big in Canada until the Villeneuves came along and after Jacques left, Canada (apparently) lost interest and thus no Canadian GP.

Having a driver to root for, a driver who is succesful can truly affect a countrys interest in a sport. Especially in a success-driven country like USA. If they got nobody to cheer on with their overly-patriotic glee, they will just tune to another series with American drivers, such as IRL and NASCAR. It's simple as that.

[RejectSteve]

F1 wasn't big in Canada until the Villeneuves came along and after Jacques left, Canada (apparently) lost interest and thus no Canadian GP.

That was a question of Bernie charging too much, not a lack of Canadian interest. As Ridge Racer wrote, the Canadian GP is always well attended. I was looking into attending two months prior to the 2008 event and couldn't find an available reserved seat at the start/finish straight or the Pits Hairpin.

[Ridge Racer]

"F1 was huge in France as long as they got their Arnouxs, Prosts, Pironis, Panis's etc to cheer for, but when the French drivers stopped being successful, the interest died, which lead to no french GP."

The french are some of the most patriotic sports fans in the world and they love the French Grand Prix.

The main two main reasons why it was canceled are that the promoters couldn't afford to run the race and went straight up chapter seven (like what happened in south africa in 1992 and mexico in 1993) and the fact that Magny-Cours is a horrible track (races held there were almost always very boring to watch) that is very hard to get to and has no real accommodations anywhere within a reasonable distance from the track, unlike Paul Richard or the new track they are building near Paris.

The distinct lack of successful francophone drivers in F1 has more to do with the desirability of instant success in America in series like The American Le Mans sports car series and Indy Cars where you don't have to work your way up the ladder of feeder series and can just jump in to a spec car and generate wins and championships right away.

Sebastian Bordais is a perfect example of this he was rookie of the year and a four time champion in Indy Cars because all cars in that series are built equal and it's only down to who's the better driver, but when he came to F1 he entered a brave new world where the cars are not all the same and teams with smaller budgets don't have the high levels of success that he was used to from the states.

In consequence he has spent the first year of his F1 career floundering and stumbling around trying in vein to achieve some modicum of success, it wasn't until the rule changes for the current season that made the cars more equal that he has started to show some promise and that he could possibly be a champion with the right team and car.

I have no doubt that somewhere is the next F1 master from France and that when the time comes he will show his face and make waves in the series carrying on the long proud tradition of drivers like Prost , Arnoux, Pironi, Tambay and others.

"I'm Back In Black"
(AC/DC)

[Ridge Racer]

"F1 wasn't big in Canada until the Villeneuves came along and after Jacques left, Canada (apparently) lost interest and thus no Canadian GP."

F1 has always been very popular in Canada even going back to the first races that were held in this country in the sixties, when the race was held at Mosport Park near Toronto people would drive and fly in from as far away as Vancouver, Calgary and Winnipeg in the west and St Johns and Fredericton in the east not to mention Whitehorse and Yellowknife in the north.

Then the race moved to Quebec first to St, Jovite then to Mont Tremblanc both of which were still very successful but it wasn't until the move to cosmopolitan Montreal in the late seventies that the race really took off again, with the arrival of Giles Villeneuve to Ferrari in 1979 national interest really took off even after the Zolder tragedy F1 was still as strong as ever in Canada.

Then in 1995 Giles nephew Jacques won the Indy 500 becoming the first Canadian to win that race and eventually the Cart Championship, when he announced that he was going to F1 in 1996 the national sporting press in the country went crazy, the next year Jacques did something that had never happened before he won the rookie of the year title (just missing out on the world championship by a couple of points) and the following year did what his uncle was so close to doing in the early eighties when he became the first (and only Canadian) to win the world championship.

Even after the disappointments of the following several seasons Canadian fans stayed with him and the race was still attended very well.

After Jacques quit (or got thrown out) depending on who you ask people still flocked to the Canadian Grand Prix every year, it was a source of international pride for the city of Montreal that was taken away because Bernie couldn't extort enough money from the city provincial and federal governments to hold the race, but that is his loss,

"I'm Back In Black"
(AC/DC)

[rffp]

Eddie Cheever: may have come out of the european system but never really had a chance to show how good he was because of the fact he was stuck in many second rate teams (except Ligier which was a first rate team with a fifth rate car in 1982-83).

Cheever actually drove for Renault in 1983, but he was the second driver and Prost completely overshadowed him.

... not to mention Whitehorse and Yellowknife in the north.

Wow! The eskimos are also F-1 fans.

[PayasYouDNPQ]

Then the race moved to Quebec first to St, Jovite then to Mont Tremblanc both of which were still very successful but it wasn't until the move to cosmopolitan Montreal in the late seventies that the race really took off again, with the arrival of Giles Villeneuve to Ferrari in 1979 national interest really took off even after the Zolder tragedy F1 was still as strong as ever in Canada.

St. Jovite is just another name for Mont Tremblant. Also, Gilles won the first GP at Montreal in 1978, which obviously increased interest.

Then in 1995 Giles nephew Jacques won the Indy 500 becoming the first Canadian to win that race and eventually the Cart Championship, when he announced that he was going to F1 in 1996 the national sporting press in the country went crazy, the next year Jacques did something that had never happened before he won the rookie of the year title (just missing out on the world championship by a couple of points) and the following year did what his uncle was so close to doing in the early eighties when he became the first (and only Canadian) to win the world championship.

There has never been any official rookie of the year title in F1. Of course being 19 points off the WDC in your first season is a great achievement. Even if you consider him rookie of the year, that's something that happens every year isn't it? Why was Jacques the first?

Sebastian Bordais is a perfect example of this he was rookie of the year and a four time champion in Indy Cars because all cars in that series are built equal and it's only down to who's the better driver, but when he came to F1 he entered a brave new world where the cars are not all the same and teams with smaller budgets don't have the high levels of success that he was used to from the states.

Nothing to do with Newman/Haas Racing having the best team and the best cars then? (CART cars were not identical. The teams were allowed to modify the cars)

[Ridge Racer]

Indy cars were (and are) built to specific specs that are heavily enforced so the budget of the teams is a much less relevant as is the ability to make small modifications to the design that was afforded to the teams with the adjustment in the rules that particular season.

Indy cars also had a freeze on mechanical development for several years (chassis, engine that sort of thing) to make the teams more equal in terms of performance so the series wouldn't become a one team show like F1 has had in the past with Ferrari (1999-2006), Williams (1992) or Mclaren (1989) dominating entire seasons while everyone else was desperately playing catch up.

So Bordais being a member of Newman/Hass had a little less to do with winning the championship and more to do with the luck of the draw more than anything else, he had a good car was (and is) a good driver he just happened to win a couple more races than his closest rival,

Because Indy car racing's rules are geared to making everyone equal everyone running in the series theoretically has an opportunity to win the championship not just the team that throws the most money around on drivers engines and chassis design.

And I'm not knocking Indy Car racing as a sport but F1 is just at a different level both financially and technically than Indy cars are and that is why so many drivers who make the jump over the atlantic from that series to F1 either fail miserably (Michael Andretti) or struggle before being shown the door (Scott Speed).

[RejectSteve]

Indy cars were (and are) built to specific specs that are heavily enforced so the budget of the teams is a much less relevant as is the ability to make small modifications to the design that was afforded to the teams with the adjustment in the rules that particular season.

When you say Indy cars, are you talking IRL or CART? In CART, the teams were able to modify their cars (primarily Lola after Reynard went bust, Swift and Eagle pulled out) until the introduction of the Panoz DP01.

Because Indy car racing's rules are geared to making everyone equal everyone running in the series theoretically has an opportunity to win the championship not just the team that throws the most money around on drivers engines and chassis design.

While they can't throw more money at drivers, engines, or chassis design, Newman/Haas had more if it than the rest of the series and used it to hire talented engineers, mechanics, and keep up with spare parts for better lifing. Remember Alex Yoong said that Dale Coyne Racing didn't have a decent engineer...

And I'm not knocking Indy Car racing as a sport but F1 is just at a different level both financially and technically than Indy cars are and that is why so many drivers who make the jump over the atlantic from that series to F1 either fail miserably (Michael Andretti) or struggle before being shown the door (Scott Speed).

I'd be hesitant to name Speed in that. While he raced karts in the US, he only ran one season of cars before jumping across the pond thanks to the Red Bull Driver Search.

[PayasYouDNPQ]

In addition to what RejectSteve said.

So Bordais being a member of Newman/Hass had a little less to do with winning the championship and more to do with the luck of the draw more than anything else, he had a good car was (and is) a good driver he just happened to win a couple more races than his closest rival,

That's something of a distortion. Bourdais utterly dominated during his time in CART/Champ Car. In the years 2004-2007, he won 7, 6, 7, and 8 races in each season. Only in 2006 did someone else win more than 2 (Allmendinger won 5). Luck of the draw. I'd say the only luck was getting into Newman/Haas in 2003.

Because Indy car racing's rules are geared to making everyone equal everyone running in the series theoretically has an opportunity to win the championship not just the team that throws the most money around on drivers engines and chassis design.

Even in IRL Indycar, the teams are allowed to modify their cars and that's why teams Penske, Ganassi and AGR are always the ones at the front. They have the money and the resources.

I'll be honest. I've spent so much time corecting your mistakes I'm not even sure what your point is any more.

[Fitch]

To my Knowledge Gilles Villeneuve never had a Nephew named Jacques....He did have a Brother named Jacques, although he never won the Indy 500 or the CART championship..in fact he only won 1 CART Race and that was in 1984 at Road America...

Now Gilles' brother Jacques does have a nephew also named Jacques.....who is Gilles Son.....He DID win the Indy 500 and the CART championship and the 1997 Formula 1 World Drivers Championship with Williams........



Also IRL Teams are not allowed to modify their chassis the IRL has an Almost Iron Fisted grip on the Dallara's about the Only real freedom the Teams have is in the Wings..and really thats in the size of the End plates and whether or not they have fins inside the wings on Road courses and Short Ovals.....

[IntegratorTypeR]

Has anyone consider that it might not have anything to do the fact F1 is mostly European, nor that that favoured American route is oval racing be in IndyCar or NASCAR, nor that there isn't an American driver in F1 or the next level down GP2, but that one word that dominates ALL American sports.....

STATS!!!

Think about it. US sports are totally and utterly geared toward gathering stats and their fans are probably obsessed with them. Field goals, yards, points, penalties, kicks, time on field, time off field, homeruns, stirke outs, laps led, green flag laps, yellow flag laps etc etc. It might be a simplistic viewpoint but to me it seems that if the fans can't call up a stat for something or someone in a certain place or situation then they can't figure out who is better or something? I mean its like they need a black and white answer in stats to them X is better or worse than Y, they can't make a subjective assessment for themselves.

F1 most other racing this side of the Atlantic isn't so geared toward stats collection as the US sports are so maybe thats where they're failing? Or I could be talking comeplete nonsense.

Discuss.

[thehemogoblin]

Dude,

I'm a stat-head. I have been from the moment I could understand sports. They show the underlying performance and the trends better than the results at the end. Results are a lot of luck. For the sake of me not boring this entire board with baseball drivel, I'm going into no more detail now.