Laffite at Williams in '82-'83

[William Hunt]

Recently I have been comparing team mates in the '80s with each other.

What was really baffling was the massive difference between Laffite and Rosberg at Williams and I really mean massive, people who complain about Jolyon Palmer (who seems to completely have lost all confidence, I think it's mostly a mental problem with Jolyon) beiing so much slower as Hülkenberg this year should check out the gap between Laffite & Rosberg.

When Laffite moved back to his beloved home Ligier (he was Guy Ligier's right hand and called the shots there for many years) he was also dominated by de Cesaris (who admittedly crashed a lot) in qualifying and Streiff immediately went quicker at the end of '85, the same pattern in '86 with Arnoux beiing quicker by quite a margin.

Now I realize that Jacques was getting old at that point in his carreer and that he was always more a racer as a qualifier and he did still get numerous points finishes. In fact Laffite still did some awesome races at Ligier scoring 5 times a podium in '85-'86 but his qualifying performance was poor.

But why didn't Williams replace him for 1984? He must have been on a two year deal that was expensive to break but hey in F1 contracts get broken all the team and Williams had Honda support back then.

Jacques didn't even qualify in Monza and Brands Hatch in '83 although in his defence at Monza he had wrong tyres fitted on his car in qualy and in Brands Hatch there was a broken engine I believe.

At Brands Hatch he was even dead last and got outqualified by the rookie Jonathan Palmer in a third Williams, Palmer did make it to the race, it would have made more sense at that time to even put Palmer next to Rosberg in '84 since he was a F2 champion and their test driver.

Heck even Senna was on the market, they could have also grabbed someone like Warwick who went to Renault instead or Patrese (he would have been my first choice, extremely quick), John Watson was without a seat (although he was meant to drive for Zakspeed in '84 from what I remember but they postponed a year, Watson was also linked to Toleman at the time).

Senna tested for Williams in 1983 so they must have known how talented he was, their biggest mistake was not immediately contracting him long term.

Watson was also nearing the end of his carreer then but he still won a race in '83 and would have probably been quite a bit slower as Rosberg as well (I think almost nobody was capable of beating Rosberg at his peek) but John would have probably been closer and more solid.

After Jacques had his accident it was wel in to the end of 1988 that there were rumours of him wanting to come back even though he was well in his '40s (45-46 in '88) and his injuries probably would have prevented that.

So my question is, why did they hang on to him?

Surely for a team like Williams it was unacceptable that one of their drivers did not qualify twice in a row when Keke was that much quicker.

In Jacques' defence: Derek Daly also was dominated by Rosberg in '82.

I was always a Laffite fan, I liked his personality (in the '70-'80s there were so many great personalities in F1)

[Salamander]

Keke Rosberg was far better a driver than most give him credit for, at least in my opinion. Only at the tail end of 1985 did he have arguably the best car on the grid, when Honda finally sorted out their engines - other than that, his Williams tended to be 3rd or 4th best. He clearly had the upper hand over Mansell while they were teammates in 1985 - the same Mansell who was a blown tyre away from becoming World Champion the very next year. In fact, both of Mansell's 1985 victories were won in races where Rosberg probably had the upper hand in pure pace but was stymied by A) Losing a lap after being spun by Senna at Brands Hatch and B) Spinning on oil in South Africa left by Ghinzani after storming through 6th to 1st on the opening laps. Though I would agree that Laffite's prior form would suggest he should've performed better, assuming equal equipment.

Admittedly, a similar question to yours could be asked of Rosberg in 1986 at McLaren - after all, he was soundly beaten all season long by Prost.

Also, about Senna, I believe Williams did offer Senna a drive around that time, however, Senna chose to drove for Toleman to avoid being overwhelmed by being moved to a top team before he was ready.

[Bobby Doorknobs]

Heck even Senna was on the market, they could have also grabbed someone like Warwick who went to Renault instead or Patrese (he would have been my first choice, extremely quick), John Watson was without a seat (although he was meant to drive for Zakspeed in '84 from what I remember but they postponed a year, Watson was also linked to Toleman at the time).

Senna wasn't an option for reasons Salamander covered, and Watson was angling for a Lotus drive, although I believe he was using that to get a better deal from McLaren before Prost was sacked from Renault and they signed him instead. With all the other competitive seats filled, and Lotus not wanting to pay the money asked of them, Wattie decided to retire. Warwick wasn't getting much notice from top teams until towards the end of 1983 when Toleman was finally starting to look good and he saw Renault to be the best option for him, being that it was a works team that had just nearly won the championship.

[AndreaModa]

Didn't Warwick turn down a Williams drive to move to Renault instead? I'm sure I read that somewhere.

[William Hunt]

No clue about Warwick turning down Williams for Renault, I do know that Lotus wanted Warwick for 1986 but Senna cast a veto and they took Dumfries instead, poor Johnny never got a fair chance at Lotus, off course Dumfries was not in the same league as Senna but they treated him as the 5th wheel on a wagon.

Watson did not retire at the beginning of '84, Watson was supposed to drive for Toleman in 1985, somehow that did not materialize, don't remember why. He still did one race for McLaren in '85 and he even tested a Jordan many years later ('91).

I think Watson was also supposed to drive for Zakspeed in '84 but the German team postponed entering F1 to 1985. Now I am pretty sure about Watson and Toleman but about Watson and Zakspeed I'm not sure at all, this is just from memory and I was only 8 years old in '84 (but already following it closely and watching all the races).

I am 100% certain however that Zakspeed had originally planned to enter F1 in 1984, maybe someone else can tell who was supposed to drive for them and if it was Watson or someone else.

Minardi had actually also planned to enter F1 in 1984, with Nannini at the wheel I believe, but they also postponed to 1985. Zakspeed even had the car ready to race in '84, don't think Minardi was that far yet.

[Bobby Doorknobs]

Warwick did turn down Williams, but it was to stay at Renault, not join them. In other words, the offer was made for 1985, not 1984. And then Nige came along...

Watson did not retire at the beginning of '84, Watson was supposed to drive for Toleman in 1985, somehow that did not materialize, don't remember why. He still did one race for McLaren in '85 and he even tested a Jordan many years later ('91).

Well, if we are to argue semantics, no (he did a few sportscar races and was still open to offers), but the fact was he was basically done with F1. The comeback for Toleman never happened because of their tyre situation, the McLaren drive was exactly what it was - a one off return - and the only reason he did the test drive for Eddie Jordan is down to the fact that Wattie was a fellow Irishman and the first one to win in F1 at that: It was purely symbolic and no more coming out of retirement than the time Prost drove the Red Bull a few years ago.

I think Watson was also supposed to drive for Zakspeed in '84 but the German team postponed entering F1 to 1985. Now I am pretty sure about Watson and Toleman but about Watson and Zakspeed I'm not sure at all, this is just from memory and I was only 8 years old in '84 (but already following it closely and watching all the races).

Yeah, I don't remember seeing anything about this at all. They tested the 841 late in the year with Manfred Winkelhock, but I can't think of anyone else involved around that time apart from their eventual 1985 man Palmer.

[William Hunt]

What a crying shame that Warwick didn't choose Williams in favour of Renault for 1985.
But off course Renault was a factory team and Derek could not know that Williams was going to become so strong and that Renault would back out of F1 at the end of F1 (why did Renault actually leave?)

I always rated Warwick a lot higher as Mansell.
It was strange to see Mansell developing so strongly when he moved to Williams, he had shown nothing in F3 and was far less talented as Elio de Angeles imho.
I think it was a case of getting in the right car at the right time for Mansell, Warwick never had that luck, I still believe Warwick was the better driver of the two. I rated Brundle higher as Mansell too.

[girry]

In further Laffite's defence, you also have to remember that the cars of that era were harder to drive + often the #2 driver got weaker equipment than the #1 driver and thus the teammate gaps, especially in qualifying, were significantly amplified in comparison to modern F1.

For instance, Watson and Prost pretty much walked over Lauda in qualifying (I think Lauda was on average over 1.5secs/qualifying behind Prost in 1985) but not that much in the races. Or Laffite himself, who nearly won the 1981 title while his 3 teammates collected zero points in total. Or the numerous #2 drivers for Brabham in the early 80's. So Jacques wasn't *that* much of a catastrophe for Williams.

It was strange to see Mansell developing so strongly when he moved to Williams, he had shown nothing in F3 and was far less talented as Elio de Angeles imho.
I think it was a case of getting in the right car at the right time for Mansell, Warwick never had that luck, I still believe Warwick was the better driver of the two. I rated Brundle higher as Mansell too.

Yeah Elio is a great what-could-have-been. However, Warwick and Brundle were alright but would never have beaten Piquet or given Prost a hard time in that Ferrari. Mansell was a slow developer but imo he was so good at his end-career that his status as a great should not be questioned based on that he wasn't seen as a great driver early in the career.

Or surely, if early career promise is the judge of a good driver, shouldn't Fisichella and Alboreto also be rated higher than the likes of Lauda and Damon Hill?