End of the road for Sauber?

pi314159 · Post by **pi314159** » 30 Apr 2016, 20:07

ChequeredFlagNope wrote:It would be better for Sauber if they returned to Sports cars, they have past experience and it would be a lot cheaper to run.

Would anyone else here like to see Sauber run in LMP1 or LMP2?

It doesn't work as easy as this. The entire structure of a Formula One team is designed for competing in Formula One.

Yes, the costs of competing would be lower in LMP2 or privateer LMP1. But the income would be lower too. There is no TV money in sportscar racing. And sponsors won't pay as much as in F1 either.

LMP2 can easily be ruled out. LMP2 is a customer formula, especially from next year onwards. Buy a chassis from Onroak, Oreca, Riley or Dallara, stick a Gibson engine in, and you're ready to go. Sauber is incredibly oversized for an LMP2 team.

LMP1 sounds more viable, considering that the needs of an LMP1 competitor are similar to a Formula One team. However, there is no TV money for LMP1 competitors like there is in F1. Also, sponsors won't pay an LMP1 privateer team anywhere near as much money as they would pay an F1 team. So where should the money to keep Sauber running come from?

The only way I could see Sauber switch to sportscars would be if a manufacturer is looking for an experienced team to run their factory effort. That would fit perfectly for Sauber, with their advanced facilities.

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 30 Apr 2016, 20:53

pi314159 wrote:
ChequeredFlagNope wrote:It would be better for Sauber if they returned to Sports cars, they have past experience and it would be a lot cheaper to run.

Would anyone else here like to see Sauber run in LMP1 or LMP2?

It doesn't work as easy as this. The entire structure of a Formula One team is designed for competing in Formula One.

Yes, the costs of competing would be lower in LMP2 or privateer LMP1. But the income would be lower too. There is no TV money in sportscar racing. And sponsors won't pay as much as in F1 either.

LMP2 can easily be ruled out. LMP2 is a customer formula, especially from next year onwards. Buy a chassis from Onroak, Oreca, Riley or Dallara, stick a Gibson engine in, and you're ready to go. Sauber is incredibly oversized for an LMP2 team.

LMP1 sounds more viable, considering that the needs of an LMP1 competitor are similar to a Formula One team. However, there is no TV money for LMP1 competitors like there is in F1. Also, sponsors won't pay an LMP1 privateer team anywhere near as much money as they would pay an F1 team. So where should the money to keep Sauber running come from?

The only way I could see Sauber switch to sportscars would be if a manufacturer is looking for an experienced team to run their factory effort. That would fit perfectly for Sauber, with their advanced facilities.

Audi spent a crazy amount of time in their wind tunnel developing last years R18 to the point that they were spending more time in there than what the F1 team were. I think the figure was around 4000 to 5000 hours but I need to double check in Racecar Engineering for the exact figure.
Edit: Audi booked 3000 hours in the Sauber wind tunnel.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 30 Apr 2016, 21:30

With hindsight, it is very little surprise. It's still only been the last five or so years they've had to survive as a true independent, rather than hooked up to a life support machine from a factory supply of engines and other assistance. Entering the sport backed my Mercedes, then transitioning via an injection of Red Bull cash to a Ferrari B-team, and then the BMW buyout making them a fully fledged works team. It's been decades since Sauber were a bonafide small privateer in any series before the 2010s, relying entirely on their own resources, rather than closely intertwined with a manufacturer.

Sauber need to diversify or die. But with such a narrow marketplace to operate in, one with very few, specialised customers, it's becoming ever harder to see how they can sustain their existence in their current configuration, without striking a deal with an existing manufacturer for assistance yet again. No-one would envy their position. It's really difficult to see where the money could potentially come from. Leaving Formula 1 behind for something else comes with the requirement of downscaling massively. They already shed lots of jobs immediately after BMW left the sport. They can't afford to consider it unless every other potential avenue has been exhausted.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 30 Apr 2016, 21:31

roblomas52 wrote:Audi spent a crazy amount of time in their wind tunnel developing last years R18 to the point that they were spending more time in there than what the F1 team were.

#AudiF1Confirmed?

Post by **Miguel98** » 01 May 2016, 07:41

So, how long until Sauber are bought, and turned into Alfa Romeo?

Post by **mario** » 01 May 2016, 09:06

Miguel98 wrote:So, how long until Sauber are bought, and turned into Alfa Romeo?

The rumour has been kicking around for a while, but at the moment Kaltenborn has only talked about forming a partnership with Alfa Romeo. Furthermore, it seems that Marchionne has been baulking at taking on Sauber's liabilities - when asked about it, he seemed amiable to deal only if somebody else took on Sauber's debts.

He's also quoted by Autosport as saying that

"There are perhaps other alternatives for Alfa if they wanted to come back into the race. It is a very close cousin of Ferrari, and you should start looking at your family first before you start looking outside."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/123876

That, to my mind, suggests that he has seen the success that their customer, Haas, has had with their car and is considering having any prospective Alfa Romeo team operate under a similar relationship. Sauber strikes me as being an oversized and overly expensive team for such an operation, such that I think that a transformation into Alfa Romeo seems optimistic.

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 01 May 2016, 20:03

Get a Honda engine, stick that guy Matsushita in the car, turn it into the Swiss version of Super Aguri. Problem solved

Post by **Ataxia** » 01 May 2016, 20:09

With the expansion of SMP Racing across the junior categories, sportscars and WEC, what chance they pump in some money? With Helmut Marko priming Verstappen for a Red Bull seat, SMP could theoretically achieve an all-Russian lineup of Kvyat and Sirotkin.

This is completely hypothetical and should not be considered as serious, unless this actually happens and if so I reserve the right to say I told you so. If.

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 01 May 2016, 21:25

Ataxia wrote:With the expansion of SMP Racing across the junior categories, sportscars and WEC, what chance they pump in some money? With Helmut Marko priming Verstappen for a Red Bull seat, SMP could theoretically achieve an all-Russian lineup of Kvyat and Sirotkin.

This is completely hypothetical and should not be considered as serious, unless this actually happens and if so I reserve the right to say I told you so. If.

Though it's plausible SMP are interested, they won't be very keen on paying Saubers debts either. Besides, it does look like SMP have set their eyes on a partnership with Renault (and the chance that Sirotkin is going to be a Renault driver next year seems very high) Though becoming a separate customer team of Renault eventually (in the Haas model) is a possibility, it would make no sense for them to operate such a team from Switzerland.
The location in Switzerland does seem the problem. The only possibility would be an alliance with an Italian or German manufacturer. The most likely scenario to me seems that Sauber will go bankrupt, but Alfa Romeo will take over their facilities, and probably some staff, but not the team itself. But that of course depends on whether or not the FIA will allow them to enter as a new team. Then again, from Fiat perspective it makes more sense to rebrand Haas as Chrysler-Alfa Romeo
From the looks of it, Sauber is lost, unless if they can perhaps find a more shady backer, but that will probably not last very long either.

Aislabie · Post by **Aislabie** » 02 May 2016, 11:45

Stefan GP?

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 02 May 2016, 21:05

Aislabie wrote:Stefan GP?

Obviously.
I was thinking more of chinese or qatari backers. Though of course it would be awesome if Ericson's sponsors take over the team, add a few swedish sponsors and we have Ikea Bjorn Again Volvo Grand Prix

(one can dream)

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 02 May 2016, 22:04

This wrote:Though of course it would be awesome if Ericson's sponsors take over the team, add a few swedish sponsors and we have Ikea Bjorn Again Volvo Grand Prix (one can dream)

Slim Borgudd to replace Monish Kaltenborn? :glasses:

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 02 May 2016, 23:15

Biscione wrote:
This wrote:Though of course it would be awesome if Ericson's sponsors take over the team, add a few swedish sponsors and we have Ikea Bjorn Again Volvo Grand Prix (one can dream)

Slim Borgudd to replace Monish Kaltenborn?

Chances are high he has more money money money then Monisha, who's likely to lead Sauber to their Waterloo. Second driver already announced to be Fernando (Alonso)! Yes. I have a dream.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 02 May 2016, 23:37

This wrote:
Biscione wrote:
This wrote:Though of course it would be awesome if Ericson's sponsors take over the team, add a few swedish sponsors and we have Ikea Bjorn Again Volvo Grand Prix (one can dream)

Slim Borgudd to replace Monish Kaltenborn?

Chances are high he has more money money money then Monisha, who's likely to lead Sauber to their Waterloo. Second driver already announced to be Fernando (Alonso)! Yes. I have a dream.

Do you have a song to sing?

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 03 May 2016, 11:01

This wrote:Though of course it would be awesome if Ericson's sponsors take over the team, add a few swedish sponsors and we have Ikea Bjorn Again Volvo Grand Prix (one can dream)

AndreaModa wrote:
This wrote:
Biscione wrote:
Slim Borgudd to replace Monish Kaltenborn?

Chances are high he has more money money money then Monisha, who's likely to lead Sauber to their Waterloo. Second driver already announced to be Fernando (Alonso)! Yes. I have a dream.

Do you have a song to sing?

Mamma Mia! What is this? Monisha Kaltenborn becoming the team's Dancing Queen? But I would love to see somebody Take a Chance on Them because the team is full of Super Troopers. In a sport where The Winner Takes It All, I hope that this isn't Our Last Summer with Sauber.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 03 May 2016, 11:34

dr-baker wrote:Mamma Mia! What is this? Monisha Kaltenborn becoming the team's Dancing Queen? But I would love to see somebody Take a Chance on Them because the team is full of Super Troopers. In a sport where The Winner Takes It All, I hope that this isn't Our Last Summer with Sauber.

That's one pun over the limit per post, baker! Mods, ban him!

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 03 May 2016, 14:34

DanielPT wrote:
dr-baker wrote:Mamma Mia! What is this? Monisha Kaltenborn becoming the team's Dancing Queen? But I would love to see somebody Take a Chance on Them because the team is full of Super Troopers. In a sport where The Winner Takes It All, I hope that this isn't Our Last Summer with Sauber.

That's one pun over the limit per post, baker! Mods, ban him!

S.O.S.!

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 03 May 2016, 15:43

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIKEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Conquering the world with our self-assembly flat-pack furniture!

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 03 May 2016, 17:38

dr-baker wrote:
DanielPT wrote:
dr-baker wrote:Mamma Mia! What is this? Monisha Kaltenborn becoming the team's Dancing Queen? But I would love to see somebody Take a Chance on Them because the team is full of Super Troopers. In a sport where The Winner Takes It All, I hope that this isn't Our Last Summer with Sauber.

That's one pun over the limit per post, baker! Mods, ban him!

S.O.S.!

Does your mother know that you're posting thing like this?

What have i started :shock:

golic_2004 · Post by **golic_2004** » 03 May 2016, 17:42

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/saube ... st-733213/

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 03 May 2016, 18:01

golic_2004 wrote:http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/sauber-cancels-barcelona-f1-test-733213/

Things look grim for Sauber. I just hope they can make it...

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 03 May 2016, 20:52

DanielPT wrote:
golic_2004 wrote:http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/sauber-cancels-barcelona-f1-test-733213/

Things look grim for Sauber. I just hope they can make it...

If they can't find a young driver, that means they're asking a lot of money for that test from young drivers.

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 04 May 2016, 13:00

This wrote:If they can't find a young driver, that means they're asking a lot of money for that test from young drivers.

My thoughts exactly. You'd think that they'd just drive the car around in a circle 50 times and revel in the money from some pay driver who wants to drive for them for 2 days. Depends how much money they want/need from said driver, however!

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 04 May 2016, 15:40

This wrote:If they can't find a young driver, that means they're asking a lot of money for that test from young drivers.

Maybe, but weren't they desperately short of spares this weekend? Any influx of cash could be tempered by the fact that the young driver could hurt what few parts remain.

Post by **Londoner** » 05 May 2016, 12:10

Salaries are late for a third consecutive month. I can't see the sponsors continually advancing payments to the team to mitigate this

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 20 Jul 2016, 13:55

GOOD NEWS!!!

So Sauber have been acquired by Longbow Finance, which I believe is an investment firm. Looks like Sauber are going to be hanging around for a while now. :dance:

This Could Be You · Post by **This Could Be You** » 20 Jul 2016, 14:23

Well at least it isn't Qadbak.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 20 Jul 2016, 15:49

good_Ralf wrote:GOOD NEWS!!!

So Sauber have been acquired by Longbow Finance, which I believe is an investment firm. Looks like Sauber are going to be hanging around for a while now.

I think I'm pleased the Sauber name will remain in Formula 1 for now but I can't help but regret the missed opportunity of seeing Longbow F1 on the grid. That sounds epic.

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 20 Jul 2016, 16:07

Hooray, this was long overdue!
I hope we get to see some Tetra Pak and/or Julius Bär stickers on the cars now.

Post by **Ataxia** » 20 Jul 2016, 16:13

CoopsII wrote:
good_Ralf wrote:GOOD NEWS!!!

So Sauber have been acquired by Longbow Finance, which I believe is an investment firm. Looks like Sauber are going to be hanging around for a while now.

I think I'm pleased the Sauber name will remain in Formula 1 for now but I can't help but regret the missed opportunity of seeing Longbow F1 on the grid. That sounds epic.

It's a shame there's not a French Grand Prix either, because Longbow would clean house.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 20 Jul 2016, 17:48

So whose money is it that buys Sauber? Who has been investing in Longbow?
Who gets free Paddock Club tickets now?

Are they going to follow the Genii business model in F1 and sell Sauber back to BMW once they are spent? What are the benefits for a financial company to invest into an F1 team?

Post by **Ataxia** » 20 Jul 2016, 18:08

Longbow SA currently involve Raymond Bär, who is on the board at Julius Bär (a familiar name to Formula E viewers), and Pascal Picci, who has ties with Tetra Laval (the company behind Tetra Pak). It is believed that the Rausing family, the owners of Tetra Laval, have been behind Marcus Ericsson's sponsorship money and that they've decided to make the leap to team-ownership. Picci, presumably, is the face of their endeavours.

The Chicane · Post by **The Chicane** » 20 Jul 2016, 21:40

So "Longbow Finance" have fully purchased Sauber, its sad knowing that Peter Sauber has nothing to do with the team anymore apart from the name, also it seems Monisha Kaltenborn is sticking to the team like a leach even though she no longer owns any shares. :facepalm:

LovelyFondmetal · Post by **LovelyFondmetal** » 20 Jul 2016, 22:28

The Chicane wrote:So "Longbow Finance" have fully purchased Sauber, its sad knowing that Peter Sauber has nothing to do with the team anymore apart from the name, also it seems Monisha Kaltenborn is sticking to the team like a leach even though she no longer owns any shares.

Monisha Kaltenborn deserves some credit, she has just successfully brokered the sale of the team and ensured it's survival

Post by **Ataxia** » 20 Jul 2016, 23:14

LovelyFondmetal wrote:
The Chicane wrote:So "Longbow Finance" have fully purchased Sauber, its sad knowing that Peter Sauber has nothing to do with the team anymore apart from the name, also it seems Monisha Kaltenborn is sticking to the team like a leach even though she no longer owns any shares.

Monisha Kaltenborn deserves some credit, she has just successfully brokered the sale of the team and ensured it's survival

And Peter deserves a nice, quiet retirement.

Frentzen127 · Post by **Frentzen127** » 21 Jul 2016, 04:32

Ataxia wrote:
CoopsII wrote:
good_Ralf wrote:GOOD NEWS!!!

So Sauber have been acquired by Longbow Finance, which I believe is an investment firm. Looks like Sauber are going to be hanging around for a while now.

I think I'm pleased the Sauber name will remain in Formula 1 for now but I can't help but regret the missed opportunity of seeing Longbow F1 on the grid. That sounds epic.

It's a shame there's not a French Grand Prix either, because Longbow would clean house.

Unless it's in Patay.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 21 Jul 2016, 12:03

Ataxia wrote:It's a shame there's not a French Grand Prix either, because Longbow would clean house.

I've tried really hard (I just Googled it and everything) but I don't know what that means.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 21 Jul 2016, 12:06

CoopsII wrote:
Ataxia wrote:It's a shame there's not a French Grand Prix either, because Longbow would clean house.

I've tried really hard (I just Googled it and everything) but I don't know what that means.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt

Although to be fair, I probably wouldn't have gotten it either if I hadn't been told

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 21 Jul 2016, 12:23

Simtek wrote:
CoopsII wrote:
Ataxia wrote:It's a shame there's not a French Grand Prix either, because Longbow would clean house.

I've tried really hard (I just Googled it and everything) but I don't know what that means.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt

Although to be fair, I probably wouldn't have gotten it either if I hadn't been told

Ah, I see. I was struggling with the syntax a little, too.

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 21 Jul 2016, 13:06

As a longtime Sauber fan, I am cautiously optimistic about this news. Wonder if there will be any new sponsorship logos on the car?