The Lucas di Grassi Formula E Thread

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 30 Nov 2015, 14:15

AxelP800 wrote:And I can see who will object me to which I wouldn't be bothered nevermind reply, reading it alone I'm not interested

The more I read that the happier it makes me in ways I'd struggle to describe.

I can't wait to see the videogame for this series - Super RobotWars Kart or something.

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 30 Nov 2015, 15:16

Ataxia wrote:Formula E have also announced a new support category to join the series from 2016-17. Is it a junior series, promoting young drivers to the main series? Er, no. Because, erm...there aren't any drivers.

You are free to chew on my nuts on this one. I love the idea of a racing series for AI cars, I am hyped for it. Try and stop me. :dance:

Post by **Ataxia** » 30 Nov 2015, 19:04

I'm neither for nor against it at this juncture; I'll wait and see what it's like before passing comment.

Whether or not you like it, driverless cars are a division of the automotive sector that's being looked at quite heavily. It was bound to have its own race series at some point.

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 30 Nov 2015, 21:46

It's a DARPA Challenge ten times a year, I'm hyped

MorbidelliObese · Post by **MorbidelliObese** » 01 Dec 2015, 21:44

My initial reaction was to be not impressed.

Then I thought about it more, and given that countless spec-series have been squatting down and curling out a fresh one over the idea of "man and machine" for pretty much two decades, I figure what's the harm in flipping it around and making it just about the machine for a change?

Then I read the news again, and it will actually indeed be a spec (hardware) series with custom software only, and I became not impressed again.

And then I thought about it some more, and figured unlike the aforementioned avalanche of spec series, this is something that hasn't been tried before, so it's probably worth taking a look at.

And then I realised after the first few races and the novelty wears off, it'll probably get old fairly quickly.

golic_2004 · Post by **golic_2004** » 10 Dec 2015, 16:45

RIP Trulli http://www.motorsport.com/formula-e/new ... ree-entry/

Time to start thinking about FERejects right now, even though they did score a lucky 4th place once.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 10 Dec 2015, 17:34

And JLR are looking at an entry for next year, which is great news for the series. Having manufacturers on board at this stage will only boost the championship's credentials. It's a big vote of confidence when you have Renault, Citroen, JLR and Audi (via Abt), plus BMW providing the safety car. Just a shame the grid won't go up to 22 with Trulli going to the wall, unless they find another new team, but according to the story that won't happen until next season. So for 2015/16 it will be 18 car grids.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 10 Dec 2015, 18:58

golic_2004 wrote:RIP Trulli http://www.motorsport.com/formula-e/new ... ree-entry/

Time to start thinking about FERejects right now, even though they did score a lucky 4th place once.

For a team to be considered rejects (at least on this website), they must have scored less than six points under pre-2002 F1 points systems. If FERejects were to apply the same criteria, that 4th place would be worth only three points, so Trulli would qualify

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 11 Dec 2015, 03:21

Remember: points, or positions? We don't want the can of worms called Osella opened up again...

golic_2004 · Post by **golic_2004** » 11 Dec 2015, 12:38

dinizintheoven wrote:Remember: points, or positions? We don't want the can of worms called Osella opened up again...

What about Onyx? Okay I'll shut up now.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 11 Dec 2015, 13:07

It's definitely got to be based on positions. Basing it on points makes it far too complex, inconsistent and unfair.

*kicks the ants' nest, whilst stiring a pot full of an open can of worms and a bees' hive*

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 11 Dec 2015, 18:27

Onyx, with six points, were one short of escaping reject status - and I'll bet Jamie and Enoch set the criteria there so they could give Onyx a profile and highlight the eccentricities of both Jean-Pierre van Rossem and Peter Monteverdi.

Osella, as we know, scored five points - but it would have been seven had Jo Gartner been eligible for points in the 1984 season, hence the disputed case.

The criteria should be "the team scored seven points or more under the 1991-2002 scoring system, assuming every race was counted for points". This eliminates any ambiguity with both Osella and what to do if diving into the murky world of the 1950s that only tommykl would dare to touch. Say, if there had been a privateer team in that decade who scored seven 6th places, that was no points then, but seven points in 1991, 21 points in 2003, and 56 points in 2010...

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 12 Dec 2015, 01:19

dinizintheoven wrote:Say, if there had been a privateer team in that decade who scored seven 6th places, that was no points then, but seven points in 1991, 21 points in 2003, and 56 points in 2010...

Privateers aren't/weren't eligible for profiles. A reject team has to have built their own chassis, or had a partnership with a chassis builder a la BMS Dallara. Though this creates more problems. Recently, I was thinking about Theodore, who scored two points as a constructor, which should make them eligible. However, in 1977, they used an Ensign chassis, with which they scored five points, seven in total when adding the points scored with their own chassis. Should their 1977 points be totally disregarded because of the chassis they used? It is a valid part of the history of the team.

Another problem is that a team has to have attempted to qualify for at least two Grands Prix. However, MasterCard Lola had a profile despite only participating in one F1 qualifying session.

So yes, it appears the phrasing of the team criteria was a bit muddled, as it explicitly referred to points rather than positions. "Pre-2003" points systems does become a (thankfully minor) problem in the 1950s for Cooper. I can't determine if they unrejectified themselves in Monaco or Zandvoort in 1958, due to two previous sixth place finishes that at the time didn't count for points, but did later on down the line.

Nowadays, I think Biscione would be the man to ask with regards to profile eligibility, given that future content output is now under his control.

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 12 Dec 2015, 02:39

Simtek wrote:Another problem is that a team has to have attempted to qualify for at least two Grands Prix. However, MasterCard Lola had a profile despite only participating in one F1 qualifying session.

The drivers went to Brazil, only to discover the team wasn't there. In a very vague defenition of 'attempting', that could count. But that indeed only complicates matters, as we also have to define what it means 'to attempt'.

I think the original rules were created to allow Osella, but it just couldn't be sustained. I think in Theodore's case, only the 4 years as constructor should be considered, whilst the privateer years would only be referenced to, as was done on the Onyx and Merzario profiles (altough they didn't score any points as privateers, so that made it more easy). (or for example RAM or ENB would count too)
I suggest we claim Theodore as compensation for 'losing' Osella. Then again, there's currently an actual possibility of Theodore returning, and active Formula one teams are automatically ineligible.

There's also the unresolved Lola/Larousse/Venturi case. And theres also the Frank Williams Racing Cars case, as De tomaso, Politoys, Iso-Marlboro and and Frank Williams Cars as constructor in their own right never scored more than 6 points each, but were run by the same team. Also the old team (75-76) bears the same constructor name as the post-76 did, but was technically a different team as the old one was taken over by Wolf.
I suppose we could consider De Tomaso, Politoys and Iso-Marlboro as seperate reject teams as the namegivers have not been involved in any of the other projects. Frank Williams Racing Cars as constructor (75-76) probably shouldn't count, as unlike the more recent Lotus Issue, it was a different team, but it was still the same owner.

And do we consider Lola-BMW as Lola, as BMW or as a seperate entry? The fact that it were actually F2 cars who competed in an F2 race inside the F1 race complicate matters even further.

It's important to clearly define these things. But even by the strictest defenitions, there's still plenty of teams to be discussed.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 12 Dec 2015, 03:08

This wrote:
Simtek wrote:Another problem is that a team has to have attempted to qualify for at least two Grands Prix. However, MasterCard Lola had a profile despite only participating in one F1 qualifying session.

The drivers went to Brazil, only to discover the team wasn't there. In a very vague defenition of 'attempting', that could count. But that indeed only complicates matters, as we also have to define what it means 'to attempt'.

Indeed. A while back I considered doing (and even started researching) a profile for the Argentine Berta project, as they were entered for two Grands Prix, but mysteriously disappeared from the entry list Jorge de Bagration style. They could be argued for inclusion.

This wrote:There's also the unresolved Lola/Larousse/Venturi case. And theres also the Frank Williams Racing Cars case, as De tomaso, Politoys, Iso-Marlboro and and Frank Williams Cars as constructor in their own right never scored more than 6 points each, but were run by the same team. Also the old team (75-76) bears the same constructor name as the post-76 did, but was technically a different team as the old one was taken over by Wolf.
I suppose we could consider De Tomaso, Politoys and Iso-Marlboro as seperate reject teams as the namegivers have not been involved in any of the other projects. Frank Williams Racing Cars as constructor (75-76) probably shouldn't count, as unlike the more recent Lotus Issue, it was a different team, but it was still the same owner.

The thing is it wouldn't look good if the old Williams was itself divided into separate 'teams', especially since the only thing different about them is the chassis name. At least with say, Midland and Spyker, there was a change in ownership. I think some people around here were thinking of considering Lotus/Caterham as one team, as, similarly to FWRC, the only thing that changed was the name, it had the same owner for five seasons. Although this in itself can be a problem. If you go back to the Midland example they took over Jordan before the 2005 season, but still kept the Jordan name.

This wrote:And do we consider Lola-BMW as Lola, as BMW or as a seperate entry? The fact that it were actually F2 cars who competed in an F2 race inside the F1 race complicate matters even further.

The Lola-BMW didn't comply with F2 regulations because the engine was too big, so it was in effect an F1 car and was classified as such in the results. But that does still leave the problem of how the entry should be considered.

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 12 Dec 2015, 03:45

Simtek wrote:
This wrote:There's also the unresolved Lola/Larousse/Venturi case. And theres also the Frank Williams Racing Cars case, as De tomaso, Politoys, Iso-Marlboro and and Frank Williams Cars as constructor in their own right never scored more than 6 points each, but were run by the same team. Also the old team (75-76) bears the same constructor name as the post-76 did, but was technically a different team as the old one was taken over by Wolf.
I suppose we could consider De Tomaso, Politoys and Iso-Marlboro as seperate reject teams as the namegivers have not been involved in any of the other projects. Frank Williams Racing Cars as constructor (75-76) probably shouldn't count, as unlike the more recent Lotus Issue, it was a different team, but it was still the same owner.

The thing is it wouldn't look good if the old Williams was itself divided into separate 'teams', especially since the only thing different about them is the chassis name. At least with say, Midland and Spyker, there was a change in ownership. I think some people around here were thinking of considering Lotus/Caterham as one team, as, similarly to FWRC, the only thing that changed was the name, it had the same owner for five seasons. Although this in itself can be a problem. If you go back to the Midland example they took over Jordan before the 2005 season, but still kept the Jordan name.

Thing is though, that both De Tomaso and Iso-Rivolta were actual car manfucturers in one way or the other involved. So it does prove the point of the need of very strict defenitions of the criteria. Because with lot of teams, theres a 'but, one could argue'.
Solution however: there's been so many reject drivers in these teams, that it should cover quite a lot of the team story themselves.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 12 Dec 2015, 20:34

To add to this, I only ever remember seeing explicit qualifications on how to unrejectify oneself on the old websie;there was no text explaining how one initially became a reject in the first place. That did make my attempt at writing a "What is a Reject?" article more difficult. And this debate confirms it...

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 12 Dec 2015, 22:32

You need to bear in mind that the site was built originally with drivers in mind. The teams came later and were just fitted into the existing (albeit slightly modified) reject criteria.

I think the bottom line is that it doesn't really matter. If someone wants to write a profile on Theodore, Osella, Larousse, any or all of Frank Williams' ventures, then go for it! As has been pointed out, Mastercard Lola got a profile, despite not meeting the criteria.

As an aside, this comment made me chuckle:

Simtek wrote:Nowadays, I think Biscione would be the man to ask with regards to profile eligibility, given that future content output is now under his control.

If content output is under his control, then we're asleep at the wheel I'm afraid. Changes need to be made in this respect.

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 13 Dec 2015, 20:57

What I would do where there are hotly disputed cases such as the team-but-not-constructor Frank Williams Racing Cars is wrote something intended for what was Reject Centrale, where there are no stringent rules. That's where we had the article on Roland Ratzenberger that wasn't a full profile, it's where Michael Andretti's 1993 was reviewed, and there should be plenty to chew on with a review of the FWRC years - and I'd even throw 1977 with a March and Patrick Nève into the mix for good measure.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 13 Dec 2015, 21:18

dinizintheoven wrote:What I would do where there are hotly disputed cases such as the team-but-not-constructor Frank Williams Racing Cars is wrote something intended for what was Reject Centrale, where there are no stringent rules. That's where we had the article on Roland Ratzenberger that wasn't a full profile, it's where Michael Andretti's 1993 was reviewed, and there should be plenty to chew on with a review of the FWRC years - and I'd even throw 1977 with a March and Patrick Nève into the mix for good measure.

I think it would be interesting to make the article more about the development of the championship-winning team that Williams became. Start in 1969 with the Brabham chassis driven by Piers Courage, work through the FWRC years right up through the Walter Wolf fiasco, the establishment of the modern team and maybe finish with their breakthrough successes in 1979-80.

So, any takers?

golic_2004 · Post by **golic_2004** » 15 Dec 2015, 12:42

Jaguar is officially back, come next year.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122245

http://www.motorsport.com/formula-e/new ... formula-e/

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 15 Dec 2015, 15:16

The car in front is a Jaaaag.

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 15 Dec 2015, 15:28

"Terribly sorry I ran over a squirrel in Battersea Park... in my Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaag."

We need some slightly caddish drivers with pencil-moustaches for the two cars. Any takers?

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 16 Dec 2015, 13:21

dinizintheoven wrote:We need some slightly caddish drivers with pencil-moustaches for the two cars. Any takers?

He's made it known he is available should they need him...

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 16 Dec 2015, 19:00

The moustache needs to be more like Graham Hill than Nigel Mansell, and he is dead. Maybe his grandson could be persuaded to come out of retirement...?

EDIT: no, really, he's perfect for the job!

Grandad would be proud, Josh. Get back in that car!

girry · Post by **girry** » 19 Dec 2015, 14:17

Some Uruguay racing tonight!

Things I like about Formula E: all the little sponsors appearing. Yes, might not bring big money, whatever - but I remember how pale the cars originally were. Now, almost every team has several sponsors plastered over their cars and overalls. It's a very healthy sign that so many companies are showing increased interest in spending money in the series.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 19 Dec 2015, 16:39

dinizintheoven wrote:"Terribly sorry I ran over a squirrel in Battersea Park... in my Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaag."

We need some slightly caddish drivers with pencil-moustaches for the two cars. Any takers?

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 19 Dec 2015, 21:14

Right, so the last ePrix of 2015 is over and done and it got me thinking, "what if all the races of 2015 were part of the same season?" Obviously, this question can't be adequately answered due to the changes between London and Beijing, both on the driver front and in the technical regulations, but it's food for thought. Here's what the championship would look like:

Drivers' Championship

1. Sébastien Buemi - 165 pts.
2. Lucas di Grassi - 136 pts.
3. Nelson Piquet, Jr. - 126 pts.
4. Jérôme d'Ambrosio - 119 pts.
5. Sam Bird - 87 pts.
6. Nicolas Prost - 76 pts.
7. Jean-Éric Vergne - 73 pts.
8. Loïc Duval - 66 pts.
9. António Félix da Costa - 63 pts.
10. Nick Heidfeld - 47 pts.
11. Bruno Senna - 42 pts.
12. Daniel Abt - 38 pts.
13. Stéphane Sarrazin - 36 pts.
14. Scott Speed - 18 pts.
15. Robin Frijns - 17 pts.
16. Jaime Alguersuari - 16 pts.
17. Salvador Durán - 13 pts.
18. Oliver Turvey - 12 pts.
19. Nathanaël Berthon - 4 pts. (1 8th, 1 14th)
20. Charles Pic - 4 pts. (1 8th, 1 15th)
21. Jarno Trulli - 3 pts.
22. Vitantonio Liuzzi - 2 pts. (1 9th, 1 13th)
23. Oriol Servia - 2 pts. (1 9th)
24. Justin Wilson - 1 pt.
25. Simona de Silvestro - 0 pts. (2 11ths)
26. Jacques Villeneuve - 0 pts. (1 11th, 1 14th)
27. Ho-Pin Tung - 0 pts. (1 11th)
28. Karun Chandhok - 0 pts. (3 12ths)
29. Marco Andretti - 0 pts. (1 12th)
30. Oliver Rowland - 0 pts. (1 13th)
31. Fabio Leimer - 0 pts. (1 14th, 1 DNF)
32. Alex Fontana - 0 pts. (1 14th, 1 DNF)
33. Antonio Garcia - 0 pts. (1 19th)
34. Sakon Yamamoto - 0 pts. (2 DNFs)
35. Michela Cerruti - 0 pts. (1 DNF)

Teams' Championship

1. Renault e.dams - 241 pts.
2. Dragon Racing - 187 pts.
3. ABT Schaeffler Audi Sport - 174 pts.
4. NEXTEV TCR - 142 pts.
5. DS Virgin Racing - 109 pts.
6. Amlin Andretti - 103 pts.
7. Team Aguri - 80 pts.
8. Venturi - 66 pts.
9. Mahindra Racing - 59 pts.
10. Trulli - 5 pts.

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 20 Dec 2015, 03:49

Here's a "what if" for Formula E, given what's been happening in the opening three races of this season, and the results of the last.

What if: Alain Prost decides his son isn't up to the job and decides to hire a Formula 1 driver over the winter. Who, in a straight fight, would win the battle between:

(1) Sébastien Buemi and Fernando Alonso
(2) Sébastien Buemi and Lewis Hamilton
(3) Sébastien Buemi and Sebastian Vettel
(4) Sébastien Buemi and Daniel Ricciardo

I ask this on the off-chance that one of these might actually fancy his chances rather than waste his time and talent trundling around for the odd point here and there, with the other three purely for speculation. I am further wondering, how would some of these F1 champions and maybe-future-champions fare against Lucas di Grassi at Abt, or in a hypothetical third Dragon alongside the very evenly matched Roobarb and Custard...

And, completely changing tack... could you ever see Formula 1 holding its podium ceremony on the beach?

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 22 Dec 2015, 10:33

dinizintheoven wrote:What if: Alain Prost decides his son isn't up to the job and decides to hire a Formula 1 driver over the winter. Who, in a straight fight, would win the battle between:

Vettel. I think his skillset would transfer flawlessly to Formula E and would make him an immediate championship favourite in the e.Dams

Backmarker · Post by **Backmarker** » 23 Dec 2015, 18:01

dinizintheoven wrote:I ask this on the off-chance that one of these might actually fancy his chances rather than waste his time and talent trundling around for the odd point here and there, with the other three purely for speculation. I am further wondering, how would some of these F1 champions and maybe-future-champions fare against Lucas di Grassi at Abt, or in a hypothetical third Dragon alongside the very evenly matched Roobarb and Custard...

I feel that, given its relatively low speed, Formula E is quite easy to jump into and become competitive relatively quickly. Scott Speed demonstrated that last season, and we all remember how well Scott's Formula One career went. As a result, you would generally expect a more talented driver to outperform his team mate - again, that has generally been the case in Formula E. I would expect Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel and Ricciardo
to be at or near Buemi's level after 1 race in Formula E, assuming identical machinery. Buemi's advantage would largely be down to the fact that he has more experience in Formula E. I feel Alonso would struggle most: Formula E does not have easy overtaking, Alonso is a solid but not spectacular qualifier, and he can get frustrated when he's faster than someone but can't overtake.

Dj_bereta · Post by **Dj_bereta** » 24 Dec 2015, 01:14

Obvious ROTR for Piquet jr. and his crash in the last lap. I know the Nextev TCR isn't the best team around, but Piquet jr is deserving to be in the ROTY podium with his bad title defence.

AxelP800 · Post by **AxelP800** » 24 Dec 2015, 12:08

Dj_bereta wrote:Obvious ROTR for Piquet jr. and his crash in the last lap. I know the Nextev TCR isn't the best team around, but Piquet jr is deserving to be in the ROTY podium with his bad title defence.

I have to disagree here. Nextev's motor does not developed competitive enough. Turvey back in London if not surpass, was able to match Nelsinho. He now also as fast as Nelsinho with Nextev, which means both are underperforming due to the car. Then also the current ROTY candidates (IMO) are: Nathanael Berthon, Jacques Villeneuve Jr., and oh: Trulli Team

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 13 Jan 2016, 12:41

The Paris ePrix layout has been revealed.

golic_2004 · Post by **golic_2004** » 13 Jan 2016, 12:46

Simtek wrote:The Paris ePrix layout has been revealed.

Looks like a bell to me.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 13 Jan 2016, 13:04

Simtek wrote:The Paris ePrix layout has been revealed.

That pitlane... I can't think of another track where it rejoins barely a few metres after the entry!

Plus, I hope that in the pit lane, they don't have the problems that A1GP did in Beijing one year...

AxelP800 · Post by **AxelP800** » 13 Jan 2016, 15:33

That is a nice circuit, the surroundings makes it better

madmark1974 · Post by **madmark1974** » 14 Jan 2016, 15:51

Has a motorsport event ever had to be cancelled for the reason given further down the article!!???!!!

The venue for the inaugural Berlin ePrix in 2015, the Tempelhof airport, is unavailable as it is currently housing refugees that have fled to Germany, mainly from war-torn Syria.

Bleu · Post by **Bleu** » 14 Jan 2016, 20:19

dr-baker wrote:
Simtek wrote:The Paris ePrix layout has been revealed.

That pitlane... I can't think of another track where it rejoins barely a few metres after the entry!

One of my favourite circuits in rFactor...Lienz Altstadt.

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 14 Jan 2016, 21:18

madmark1974 wrote:Has a motorsport event ever had to be cancelled for the reason given further down the article!!???!!!

The venue for the inaugural Berlin ePrix in 2015, the Tempelhof airport, is unavailable as it is currently housing refugees that have fled to Germany, mainly from war-torn Syria.

It sort of reminds me of when that Bahrain GP had to be cancelled.