Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

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Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by razta »

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/119527

The points that sticks out for me are the following..
"The reasoning is we've been proposing ideas, talking about Formula 1 and that we are disappointed, especially where it is today tyre-wise.

"The tyre used as an object you throw away after a few laps, or whatever, is not really something that is good for the tyre industry.


and..
"We say there's another way to ensure a good show, as we saw over the weekend (at Le Mans), with high-technology tyres lasting with good grip, and you can have a show."


you get the feeling Michelin are genuinely feeling sorry for the sport.
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by F1000X »

Michelin has made very clear their '18 inch wheels or we're out' stance. Perhaps it's time for F1 to get with the times. At the same time, that might be an excuse for Michelin to put minimal development into a unique F1 tire, and instead let them just port over their LMP1 designs. It really is beyond my understanding to know if this is worthy trade off, given the potential for necessary chassis or suspension design changes to escalate costs.
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by Salamander »

The thing is, we need the tyres to stay as they are. If Michelin are allowed free reign, they will want to go back to the Bridgestone days, where tyres were a complete non-factor... and thus it will be easier for Mercedes to dominate and remain unchallenged, because it's one less thing they need to get right.
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by CoopsII »

razta wrote:you get the feeling Michelin are genuinely feeling sorry for the sport.

I get the feeling that Michelin are a business and they've spotted an opportunity to do over a competitor and sell more stuff.
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by DanielPT »

F1000X wrote:Michelin has made very clear their '18 inch wheels or we're out' stance. Perhaps it's time for F1 to get with the times. At the same time, that might be an excuse for Michelin to put minimal development into a unique F1 tire, and instead let them just port over their LMP1 designs. It really is beyond my understanding to know if this is worthy trade off, given the potential for necessary chassis or suspension design changes to escalate costs.


What times? These times in which functionality and practicality are traded for image? There is absolutely no benefit for regular consumers by switching from 16 or even 14 to 18 inch wheels besides looks. More handling and cornering? Yeah, like they will be close to the limit except for the usual few lunatics. On top of that, they have been crashing more in the rain and we don't need those people to clog roads even more than they already are in the normal days. The only ones that benefit more from this are tyre companies that get to sell more rubber for more exotic and extortionate prices. Besides, if 18 inch wheels did wonders for open-wheels, F1 would have been racing those for a long time now. Look at FE, it's not the fault of tyres only, but it must be a contributing factor for them to be slow as hell. Michelin just want to shove that down our throats. [/EndRant]
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by DemocalypseNow »

CoopsII wrote:
razta wrote:you get the feeling Michelin are genuinely feeling sorry for the sport.

I get the feeling that Michelin are a business and they've spotted an opportunity to do over a competitor and sell more stuff.

Bang on.

People have got to stop pissing all over Pirelli just because they are making the kind of tyres the rulemakers of the sport specifically asked for. And everyone is complaining about the tyres. Why are you complaining about Pirelli when it is the FIA's fault for making the ruleset and dictating what kind of tyre Pirelli should be making?

A tyre company cannot be a saviour of a tyre debacle. There isn't a tyre debacle. You know who was in the centre of the last true tyre debacle in F1? Michelin!
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by WeirdKerr »

Tyres can quite easily be made to last a race, Most fans don't want that I don't think, so tyres are artificially controlled to last a certain distance and be less grippy or more grippy and that's the reason we have compulsory pit stops. At the moment tyre stops can be taken at any point in the race, so a driver if he wishes can pit at the end of the first or penultimate lap and change tyres... The need a Pit stop window rule where tyres stops can only be taken between say 25% race distance and 75% race distance If a driver picks up a puncture out with the pit stop window then he can change that wheel and only that wheel or if he needs a new nose no tyres may be changed until the pit stop window is open...
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by SuzukiSwift »

I like 13" wheels, to be quite honest. Also, larger diameter wheels do not equal greater performance, you don't need huge wheels to go fast. I track a car that uses 14" wheels and anything over about 17" would be overkill even with massive upgrades. Large wheels are usually for style, and it is what the market demands. There is no advantage in going to 18" wheels. Also big wheels on any open wheel race car look dumb, although that is a personal opinion. Bridgestone was pretty good, maybe you can entice them to return? I also agree that Pirelli was just doing it's job.
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by AndreaModa »

What on earth happened to Goodyear? They bossed F1 for years, I'm surprised there's no desire from them to get back involved.
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

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AndreaModa wrote:What on earth happened to Goodyear? They bossed F1 for years, I'm surprised there's no desire from them to get back involved.

Goodyear stated outright they had no interest at the moment.

"The focus of our racing strategy is to advance tire technology on the track and apply our learnings in developing consumer tires."

Translation: We want to build bulletproof tyres that showcase how good our product is, rather than have the FIA force us to make high-wear tyres that will lead us to get negative press from all corners.
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by dr-baker »

AndreaModa wrote:What on earth happened to Goodyear? They bossed F1 for years, I'm surprised there's no desire from them to get back involved.

I remember them boasting in the 1990s of racking up 350+ wins, which at that time was apparently more than all other tyre manufacturers. Combined. Maybe Goodyear just haven't foreseen a good year in F1 for a few years now?
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by AndreaModa »

Biscione wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:What on earth happened to Goodyear? They bossed F1 for years, I'm surprised there's no desire from them to get back involved.

Goodyear stated outright they had no interest at the moment.

"The focus of our racing strategy is to advance tire technology on the track and apply our learnings in developing consumer tires."

Translation: We want to build bulletproof tyres that showcase how good our product is, rather than have the FIA force us to make high-wear tyres that will lead us to get negative press from all corners.


Yeah I guess that's fair enough really. You have to give credit to Pirelli for taking the hit in the way they've done, and also submit to Ecclestone's demands to subsidise the costs with trackside advertising.
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by mario »

DanielPT wrote:
F1000X wrote:Michelin has made very clear their '18 inch wheels or we're out' stance. Perhaps it's time for F1 to get with the times. At the same time, that might be an excuse for Michelin to put minimal development into a unique F1 tire, and instead let them just port over their LMP1 designs. It really is beyond my understanding to know if this is worthy trade off, given the potential for necessary chassis or suspension design changes to escalate costs.


What times? These times in which functionality and practicality are traded for image? There is absolutely no benefit for regular consumers by switching from 16 or even 14 to 18 inch wheels besides looks. More handling and cornering? Yeah, like they will be close to the limit except for the usual few lunatics. On top of that, they have been crashing more in the rain and we don't need those people to clog roads even more than they already are in the normal days. The only ones that benefit more from this are tyre companies that get to sell more rubber for more exotic and extortionate prices. Besides, if 18 inch wheels did wonders for open-wheels, F1 would have been racing those for a long time now. Look at FE, it's not the fault of tyres only, but it must be a contributing factor for them to be slow as hell. Michelin just want to shove that down our throats. [/EndRant]

And in the case of sportscar racing, the decision to use larger diameter, low profile tyres is tied into the way that the regulations are structured, which effectively favour that particular option.

Their regulations allow teams to use 15 inch brake discs, so that already pushes teams to run larger diameter rims in order to maximise the size of the brake discs they can use (up to the limits on the rim size, which is 18 inches). At the same time, the ACO places a restriction on the maximum wheel size which can be used - so, if a team wants to fit a large diameter rim in order to use a larger diameter brake disc, the restriction on the total wheel diameter pushes them towards a lower profile tyre overall - which therefore makes that option, overall, the optimum solution.

It's worth noting that Nissan, who originally wanted to design their car around a much smaller brake disc and to rely more heavily on their energy recovery systems to slow the cars down, originally opted for 16 inch rims and a relatively high profile tyre.
It was only when they realised that they couldn't make their hybrid system work and had to rely more heavily on the conventional brakes that they reverted to 18 inch wheels on the front, purely for the improved braking capacity (though they still stuck with 16 inch wheels at the rear, where they didn't need to boost the braking power) - indicating that it is braking, rather than cornering performance, which was the dominant factor in that instance.

As you say, for open wheeled cars where there are tighter restrictions on the brake disc size, there is less of an incentive for larger diameter rims. Even though Michelin have been selling the changes to the Formula Renault 3.5 series on performance grounds, they themselves have admitted that another major incentive was "giving the cars a more modern look", as they put it - i.e. it would be better for their marketing literature.
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by Salamander »

Unless I'm mistaken, I'm pretty sure Goodyear only supply tyres to NASCAR these days. And they don't do a particularly good job of that, either, so maybe that's a blessing in disguise...
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

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Salamander wrote:Unless I'm mistaken, I'm pretty sure Goodyear only supply tyres to NASCAR these days. And they don't do a particularly good job of that, either, so maybe that's a blessing in disguise...

They own Dunlop, they use that brand for motorsport activities in Europe these days instead of Goodyear itself.
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by Wallio »

Biscione wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:What on earth happened to Goodyear? They bossed F1 for years, I'm surprised there's no desire from them to get back involved.

Goodyear stated outright they had no interest at the moment.

"The focus of our racing strategy is to advance tire technology on the track and apply our learnings in developing consumer tires."

Translation: We have been run out of every single racing series where there was ever any competition (Indycar, F1, IMSA) because our tyres are total shite. We even were losing the tyre war in NASCAR to Hoosier until we paid NASCAR MILLIONS to make us the sole supplier, and most of the drivers hate us. Also our drag racing tyres suck, and again, only paying the NHRA MILLIONS has made us the sole supplier in the top 3 classes, in all the others, NO ONE runs Goodyears.


Fixed that for you.
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

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In my opinion, there shouldn't be a mandatory single supplier in F1. That doesn't necessarily mean a tyre war. Formula 1 had long periods of time without tyre wars, without mandating the use of a spec tyre. But the possibility that another supplier could enter forces the existing manufacturer to build tyres for completing a race distance as fast as possible, and not for creating a show.
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by mario »

pi314159 wrote:In my opinion, there shouldn't be a mandatory single supplier in F1. That doesn't necessarily mean a tyre war. Formula 1 had long periods of time without tyre wars, without mandating the use of a spec tyre. But the possibility that another supplier could enter forces the existing manufacturer to build tyres for completing a race distance as fast as possible, and not for creating a show.

Such a system would raise the potential for tyre suppliers to begin favouring particular manufacturers though, and in such a situation it is likely that it would be the biggest teams that would be favoured over the smaller ones.
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

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Biscione wrote:Goodyear stated outright they had no interest at the moment.
"The focus of our racing strategy is to advance tire technology on the track and apply our learnings in developing consumer tires."
Translation: We want to build bulletproof tyres that showcase how good our product is, rather than have the FIA force us to make high-wear tyres that will lead us to get negative press from all corners.

Here's a wacky idea: if the FIA demands tyres that degrade and drop to bits in the name of "improving the show", and the premium manufacturers don't want their reputation trashed, then why not instead invite a manufacturer of cheap and nasty tyres with no reputation to lose? Plus, presumably these tyres will be so devoid of grip that the challenge of handling a Formula 1 car will be restored, which will really sort out the Alonsos from the Nissanys.

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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by Wallio »

I would be for a system where the manufactures can pick one area to work on, and the other two sets to spec. This would involve bringing back quali tyres (which should have happened already) but basically you can pick one of Q-Tyres, Wets, or Race tyres, and develop the hell out of them. The others are spec.

Now no one would work on wets obviously, but it could be the '80s again where Pirelli had awesome qualfiers, but Goodyear had better race tyres. It allows for development, marketing, and "the show"
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

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Wallio wrote:I would be for a system where the manufactures can pick one area to work on, and the other two sets to spec. This would involve bringing back quali tyres (which should have happened already) but basically you can pick one of Q-Tyres, Wets, or Race tyres, and develop the hell out of them. The others are spec.

Now no one would work on wets obviously, but it could be the '80s again where Pirelli had awesome qualfiers, but Goodyear had better race tyres. It allows for development, marketing, and "the show"

It's a 300-km race. Would anyone really choose qualifying tyres?
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by Wallio »

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
Wallio wrote:I would be for a system where the manufactures can pick one area to work on, and the other two sets to spec. This would involve bringing back quali tyres (which should have happened already) but basically you can pick one of Q-Tyres, Wets, or Race tyres, and develop the hell out of them. The others are spec.

Now no one would work on wets obviously, but it could be the '80s again where Pirelli had awesome qualfiers, but Goodyear had better race tyres. It allows for development, marketing, and "the show"

It's a 300-km race. Would anyone really choose qualifying tyres?


Pirelli did for the '80's and early '90's. If you can start in front you may be able to stay there, we all know how hard it is to pass. It's just a thought. I personally want to bring back refueling and a tyre war, but I know I'm pretty much the only one who does, so I'd be game for a compromise.
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

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Wallio wrote:Pirelli did for the '80's and early '90's. If you can start in front you may be able to stay there, we all know how hard it is to pass. It's just a thought. I personally want to bring back refueling and a tyre war, but I know I'm pretty much the only one who does, so I'd be game for a compromise.

It's only hard to pass when the ultimate time differential between cars is about a second a lap, as is usually the case now. If a driver has to stay out on a tyre costing them 4 seconds a lap, they are a sitting duck.

What happened 30 years ago is not relevant anymore. The approach to the sport, the level of professionalism, has just gone up and up. A quali-focused tyre would be a death sentence for any team that dared use it.
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by MorbidelliObese »

I'm also in the minority that would prefer a tyre war. Call me old fashioned but I'd prefer the winning tyre to be sorted out on track rather than in some sort of tender process. And if everyone ends up on one tyre like with Dunlop in the early 60s or Goodyear at various points in the 70s, 80s and 90s (or say Michelin in current LMP1) so be it, as long as it's not that way through regulation.

Plus in terms of predictability, I struggle to think of a season off the top of my head where tyre competition has actually made things worse - I'm currently watching re-runs of races from 1989, full of Brabhams, Dallaras, Minardis and others using their Pirelli qualifiers to get high(er) up on the grid.

1997 had the likes of Hill and Panis before his injury using their Bridgestones to good effect on occasion. 1998 probably didn't make a massive difference in terms of the championship, but some of the race-to-race swing between McLaren and Ferrari (well, Schumacher) could have been down to BS or GY having a better time on a certain track/conditions/etc.

Then of course the Schumacher years being broken up by Michelin, 2005/06 in terms of the championship but they also stopped 2003 being a cakewalk.

Maybe you could argue Ferrari themselves benefitted from a special relationship with Bridgestone, but they were built up into such a force by that point anyway that in a parallel universe with a spec tyre formula from 2001-06 I can't see anything other than Schumacher as 9xWDC, or at best maybe Alonso still taking 2006.
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by FMecha »

18-inch wheels you say? Pirelli tested this last year:
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It looks awkward on an open-wheeler. :roll: Why Michelin always insists on 18-inch wheels?
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by Ataxia »

FMecha wrote:18-inch wheels you say? Pirelli tested this last year:

It looks awkward on an open-wheeler. :roll: Why Michelin always insists on 18-inch wheels?


I think they look great; they only look "awkward" simply because people aren't used to them. If they were brought in, I doubt people would notice after a few years...
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

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Ataxia wrote:
FMecha wrote:18-inch wheels you say? Pirelli tested this last year:

It looks awkward on an open-wheeler. :roll: Why Michelin always insists on 18-inch wheels?


I think they look great; they only look "awkward" simply because people aren't used to them. If they were brought in, I doubt people would notice after a few years...

Why are you always saying anyone who doesn't have your opinion on this actually just doesn't like it because they aren't used to it? You can't really make objective arguments for "looks better" or "looks worse".
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by dr-baker »

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
Ataxia wrote:
FMecha wrote:18-inch wheels you say? Pirelli tested this last year:

It looks awkward on an open-wheeler. :roll: Why Michelin always insists on 18-inch wheels?


I think they look great; they only look "awkward" simply because people aren't used to them. If they were brought in, I doubt people would notice after a few years...

Why are you always saying anyone who doesn't have your opinion on this actually just doesn't like it because they aren't used to it? You can't really make objective arguments for "looks better" or "looks worse".

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

Or is that bee-holder?

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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by Ataxia »

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
Ataxia wrote:
FMecha wrote:18-inch wheels you say? Pirelli tested this last year:

It looks awkward on an open-wheeler. :roll: Why Michelin always insists on 18-inch wheels?


I think they look great; they only look "awkward" simply because people aren't used to them. If they were brought in, I doubt people would notice after a few years...

Why are you always saying anyone who doesn't have your opinion on this actually just doesn't like it because they aren't used to it? You can't really make objective arguments for "looks better" or "looks worse".


That's mainly the reason why people don't like things...as children, people tend to hate vegetables, but once they get used to eating them they grow to like them. People didn't like the post-2009 aero formula at the start, but now they're used to it they very seldom complain about it. Nobody looks at Formula E or even production cars and says "yes, we need smaller wheels".

Another argument for the inclusion of lower-profile tyres would be that it increases the overall cornering stiffness of the car, thus cornering becomes more direct with steering inputs since tyre slip and sidewall deformation is reduced.
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by UncreativeUsername37 »

Ataxia wrote:
UgncreativeUsergname wrote:Why are you always saying anyone who doesn't have your opinion on this actually just doesn't like it because they aren't used to it? You can't really make objective arguments for "looks better" or "looks worse".


That's mainly the reason why people don't like things...as children, people tend to hate vegetables, but once they get used to eating them they grow to like them. People didn't like the post-2009 aero formula at the start, but now they're used to it they very seldom complain about it. Nobody looks at Formula E or even production cars and says "yes, we need smaller wheels".

Another argument for the inclusion of lower-profile tyres would be that it increases the overall cornering stiffness of the car, thus cornering becomes more direct with steering inputs since tyre slip and sidewall deformation is reduced.

I'll give you the 2009 cars... but, really, there's typically little point in complaining about something after it's been years and everything has been said. When people stop complaining, you don't know if it's because it'd be pointless or because they've grown to like it.
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by Wallio »

Ataxia wrote:
That's mainly the reason why people don't like things...as children, people tend to hate vegetables, but once they get used to eating them they grow to like them. People didn't like the post-2009 aero formula at the start, but now they're used to it they very seldom complain about it. Nobody looks at Formula E or even production cars and says "yes, we need smaller wheels".

Another argument for the inclusion of lower-profile tyres would be that it increases the overall cornering stiffness of the car, thus cornering becomes more direct with steering inputs since tyre slip and sidewall deformation is reduced.


I still hate the 2009-current cars. That rear wing just looks goofy. Personally I don't care either way about the new wheels, but they will take some getting used to. Maybe if they had a "proper" sidewall.
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by MorbidelliObese »

Regarding rim size, from an aesthetic standpoint I'm on the fence (or don't give a flying bathplug, to be less polite), This being motorsport I'd be more interested in which solution was quicker, and I genuinely don't know the answer to that.

I'd guess lower profile tyres will maybe perform better, and deform less leading to improved aerodynamics for an open wheel car, plus allow for better braking (either larger discs, or at least better cooling if their diameter is capped), but the smaller rims probably give less unsprung weight.

I'm not an automotive engineer, the above paragraph is based solely on my intuition and therefore may be bollocks, but yeah as I say I really don't know what would be better, and personally I'd find it fun if both solutions were allowed :)
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by Ataxia »

MorbidelliObese wrote:Regarding rim size, from an aesthetic standpoint I'm on the fence (or don't give a flying bathplug, to be less polite), This being motorsport I'd be more interested in which solution was quicker, and I genuinely don't know the answer to that.

I'd guess lower profile tyres will maybe perform better, and deform less leading to improved aerodynamics for an open wheel car, plus allow for better braking (either larger discs, or at least better cooling if their diameter is capped), but the smaller rims probably give less unsprung weight.

I'm not an automotive engineer, the above paragraph is based solely on my intuition and therefore may be bollocks, but yeah as I say I really don't know what would be better, and personally I'd find it fun if both solutions were allowed :)


You're right; the tyre deforms less when in contact with the road and so reduces the overall frontal area of the car, shaving off a little drag. Larger brakes, as you say, are a given, but they don't necessarily have to be a heavier solution; I'm sure wheel manufacturers would be able to work out some way of reducing the unsprung mass through using low-density metals/alloys, or even possibly composites; it's inherently possible to 3D print carbon fibre wheels, but the behaviour against the lateral loads would certainly need to be tested.
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Re: Michelin .. The Saviors of F1's tyre debacle??

Post by mario »

FMecha wrote:It looks awkward on an open-wheeler. :roll: Why Michelin always insists on 18-inch wheels?

In the case of Michelin, whilst ostensibly it is about technological transfer, they have also conceded that there is a strong marketing push too - they have talked about "giving the cars a more modern look" by moving to 18 inch tyres.

Another point that has been raised is that Michelin could potentially re-use some of the tooling and equipment they have built up to service the WEC, where the use of 18 inch rims is more common - it would therefore be much cheaper for Michelin to persuade the sport to switch to their preferred design instead.

MorbidelliObese, with regards to performance, I think that it would be quite hard to definitely say whether an 18 inch wheel would actually offer any additional performance, since often it is intertwined with other factors. As I pointed out previously, in the case of sportscar racing the main advantage in using larger rims is not necessarily better handling, but better braking performance through being able to maximise the brake disk size; Nissan, for example, reckoned their LMP1 car would handle better on 16 inch rims, but had to adopt 18 inch rims on the front of their car because they needed to increase the size of the brake disks.
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