What If?

takagi_for_the_win · Post by **takagi_for_the_win** » 17 May 2014, 17:27

What if Mika Hakkinen's move to Williams for 1993 hadn't fallen through?

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 17 May 2014, 18:47

Had the environment at Williams suited him, I think he would've been that little bit quicker than Hill, particularly at the start of the season, to have been WDC in '94. I suspect Schmacher / Bennetton would've been too strong for him in '95 though.

Two questions then:
1) What happens to Hill? Does he stay at Williams as test driver through 93 and then come in as #2 race driver to Mika from Imola 94 onwards? Do Williams let him go at the start of 93 or 94 because they have Coulthard? Does he leave to get a race drive? I can't see either of them being quicker then Hakkinen, so he probably wins the 96 & 97 WDCs whomever he's partnered with.

If Hill stays at Williams, he's Mika's #2 in 94 (shared with Mansell), 95, 96 and maybe 97. Frentzen or Coulthard coming in to replace for either 97 or 98. Villeneuve never drives for Williams. Could possibly still get into F1 though.

If Hill leaves (idk where to), then Coulthard is #2 in 94 (sharing with Mansell), stays for 95 and ends up at McLaren for 96. Villeneuve comes in in 1996, but is slower then Hakkinen and probably ragequits. I suppose there's a chance that he might have taken enough points of Hakkinen to let Schumacher win the 97 WDC.

2) What happens at McLaren? Obviously Mika's not there, so Andretti sees out 1993. But in 94, do they run Alliot and Brundle? Does Christian Fittipaldi get a race seat 1995, as was wanted (which could possibly lead to him having a much longer career in F1 than he did)? Do they get Schumacher, since they'd have less competition for him if he hadn't won the WDC in 1994? Would they even want Schumacher with no WDC under his belt? I think they'd try anyway, especially if they had a driver pairing of Alliot & Brundle in 1994. But Schumacher may have gone to Ferrari anyway, irrespective of interest from McLaren.

Best guess:
1993
Hakkinen joins Prost at Williams. Prost wins the WDC from Senna & Hakkinen. Andretti sees out the season with McLaren, although he's not renewed for 1994.

1994:
Prost retires, and Senna moves to Williams, who release Hill from his testing contract. He gets a race drive at... em... somewhere. McLaren end up with Alliot & Brundle. Senna dies at Imola, Hakkinen wins the WDC from Schumacher. Hakkinen is partnered by both Coulthard and Mansell during the season.

1995:
McLaren try to sign Schumacher but aren't successful. They sign Coulthard, but Williams make him see out 1995 with them. McLaren do successfully sign Mansell to partner Christian Fittipaldi. Mansell leaves after two races and is replaced with Blundell. Schumacher wins the WDC narrowly from Hakkinen.

1996:
Schumacher joins Ferrari. Hakkinen is partnered at Williams by Villeneuve, but beats him to the WDC.

1997:
Hakkinen wins the WDC from Schumacher. Villeneuve stays on par with Hakkinen for the first few races, but thereafter drops away complaining that Williams is built around Hakkinen.

1998:
Villenueve joins McLaren at the expense of Fittipaldi. But even though the car is quick, he doesn't settle quickly enough and Schumacher wins the WDC. Williams fall off the pace, although Hakkinen still gives a good account of himself.

1999:
With Schumacher breaking his leg, Villenueve just about gets the job done and wins the WDC from his team-mate Coulthard and Irvine's Ferrari. Hakkinen endures another uncompetitive season and decides to retire.

Thereafter, Schumacher wins the 2000 & 2001 WDCs somewhat comfortably. Villeneuve implodes and leaves McLaren by the end of 2001, possibly before. Raikkonen goes to McLaren for 2002, but can't quite displace Schumacher either. He wins the 2002, 2003 and 2004 WDCs as he did irl.

tl;dr:

Hakkinen retires as a 3x WDC (94, 96 and 97)
Schumacher still wins 7 (95,98,00,01,02,03,04)
Villeneuve wins a WDC in 99
Hill is the loser, he never wins his one WDC

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 23 May 2014, 19:47

What if Ron Howard was given the job to be the World Feed broadcaster for a Grand Prix, or every Grand Prix for that matter?

FMecha · Post by **FMecha** » 31 May 2014, 12:32

What if Hamilton signs for BMW in 2006? :geek:

snowdog140 · Post by **snowdog140** » 31 May 2014, 12:50

Enforcer wrote:Had the environment at Williams suited him, I think he would've been that little bit quicker than Hill, particularly at the start of the season, to have been WDC in '94. I suspect Schmacher / Bennetton would've been too strong for him in '95 though.

Two questions then:
1) What happens to Hill? Does he stay at Williams as test driver through 93 and then come in as #2 race driver to Mika from Imola 94 onwards? Do Williams let him go at the start of 93 or 94 because they have Coulthard? Does he leave to get a race drive? I can't see either of them being quicker then Hakkinen, so he probably wins the 96 & 97 WDCs whomever he's partnered with.

If Hill stays at Williams, he's Mika's #2 in 94 (shared with Mansell), 95, 96 and maybe 97. Frentzen or Coulthard coming in to replace for either 97 or 98. Villeneuve never drives for Williams. Could possibly still get into F1 though.

If Hill leaves (idk where to), then Coulthard is #2 in 94 (sharing with Mansell), stays for 95 and ends up at McLaren for 96. Villeneuve comes in in 1996, but is slower then Hakkinen and probably ragequits. I suppose there's a chance that he might have taken enough points of Hakkinen to let Schumacher win the 97 WDC.

2) What happens at McLaren? Obviously Mika's not there, so Andretti sees out 1993. But in 94, do they run Alliot and Brundle? Does Christian Fittipaldi get a race seat 1995, as was wanted (which could possibly lead to him having a much longer career in F1 than he did)? Do they get Schumacher, since they'd have less competition for him if he hadn't won the WDC in 1994? Would they even want Schumacher with no WDC under his belt? I think they'd try anyway, especially if they had a driver pairing of Alliot & Brundle in 1994. But Schumacher may have gone to Ferrari anyway, irrespective of interest from McLaren.

Best guess:
1993
Hakkinen joins Prost at Williams. Prost wins the WDC from Senna & Hakkinen. Andretti sees out the season with McLaren, although he's not renewed for 1994.

1994:
Prost retires, and Senna moves to Williams, who release Hill from his testing contract. He gets a race drive at... em... somewhere. McLaren end up with Alliot & Brundle. Senna dies at Imola, Hakkinen wins the WDC from Schumacher. Hakkinen is partnered by both Coulthard and Mansell during the season.

1995:
McLaren try to sign Schumacher but aren't successful. They sign Coulthard, but Williams make him see out 1995 with them. McLaren do successfully sign Mansell to partner Christian Fittipaldi. Mansell leaves after two races and is replaced with Blundell. Schumacher wins the WDC narrowly from Hakkinen.

1996:
Schumacher joins Ferrari. Hakkinen is partnered at Williams by Villeneuve, but beats him to the WDC.

1997:
Hakkinen wins the WDC from Schumacher. Villeneuve stays on par with Hakkinen for the first few races, but thereafter drops away complaining that Williams is built around Hakkinen.

1998:
Villenueve joins McLaren at the expense of Fittipaldi. But even though the car is quick, he doesn't settle quickly enough and Schumacher wins the WDC. Williams fall off the pace, although Hakkinen still gives a good account of himself.

1999:
With Schumacher breaking his leg, Villenueve just about gets the job done and wins the WDC from his team-mate Coulthard and Irvine's Ferrari. Hakkinen endures another uncompetitive season and decides to retire.

Thereafter, Schumacher wins the 2000 & 2001 WDCs somewhat comfortably. Villeneuve implodes and leaves McLaren by the end of 2001, possibly before. Raikkonen goes to McLaren for 2002, but can't quite displace Schumacher either. He wins the 2002, 2003 and 2004 WDCs as he did irl.

tl;dr:

Hakkinen retires as a 3x WDC (94, 96 and 97)
Schumacher still wins 7 (95,98,00,01,02,03,04)
Villeneuve wins a WDC in 99
Hill is the loser, he never wins his one WDC

This was just... excellent.

Also, if Hamilton had gone to BMW in 2006, I'd predict something similar to Vettel at STR, quick for the machinery he has, getting some regular top 6 finishes until moving up to the team he is being groomed for. He'd probably then be more dominant in 2007 after having the race experience that would have eliminated freak incidents like China, which might have caused Alonso to have run off even sooner than the end of the season.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 01 Jun 2014, 11:51

A good "What If" came into my mind recently with the reactivation of the Schumacher skiing accident thread, and all the talk about Hamilton/Rosberg rivalry at the moment - what if Michael Schumacher had kept on racing with Mercedes in 2013 and had intended to keep going with them in 2014, but still had his skiing accident - first of all what happens to Hamilton, and also who gets the seat alongside Rosberg for this year given that it was after Christmas that Schumacher's accident occurred so most of the top drivers' deals would already have been done by then?

Bleu · Post by **Bleu** » 01 Jun 2014, 18:54

Hamilton stays in McLaren in 2013, but is then distraught by the bad performance and decides to leave at the end of the year. He signs with Ferrari for 2014 alongside Alonso. Räikkönen is concerned with the financial side of Lotus and returns to McLaren for 2014, with Magnussen taking spot is some midfield/back of the grid team.

With Schumacher injured, Mercedes try to buy out Hülkenberg from Force India, but FI doesn't let him go. Lotus being in more difficult financial situation, lets Grosjean go after Mercedes makes offer on him. They opt for Maldonado/Pic-pairing.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 02 Jun 2014, 06:08

Bleu wrote:Magnussen taking spot is some midfield/back of the grid team.

Let's think deeper into this. Which team could have Kevin gone to?
- If he goes to Force India, where would that leave Perez? Hulk is staying after the Merc deal falls through.
Sauber. Most likely Sauber. That means Sutil or Gutierrez won't get a chance, and given Sauber's situation, Sutil gets no chance and promptly goes off to DTM. With two Mexicans on board, Carlos Slim pumps extra cash into Kaltenborn's squad.
So the changes:
- Magnussen debuts alongside Hulk at SFI
- Sutil retires
- Perez-Gutierrez at Sauber

- If he goes to Marussia, what would change?
Bianchi or Chilton will have to leave. Ferrari is keen on Jules while showing the discounted engine contract. So that leaves Max Talent out of the car. Talent joins Caterham as reserve driver.
- Magnussen debuts at Marussia alongside Bianchi, with absolutely zero pressure on him
- Chilton joins Caterham

Bleu wrote:He signs with Ferrari for 2014 alongside Alonso.

That's an interesting line-up. Would the implosion happen? Would Hamilton throw a hissy fit after seeing the team is initially supporting Fernando?

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 02 Jun 2014, 06:25

Shizuka wrote:
Bleu wrote:Magnussen taking spot is some midfield/back of the grid team.

Let's think deeper into this. Which team could have Kevin gone to?
- If he goes to Force India, where would that leave Perez? Hulk is staying after the Merc deal falls through.

Force India is a total no-go. McLaren initially offered him to them, but they opted not to sign him.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 02 Jun 2014, 07:21

Then yeah, Marussia maybe. Although given the fact they use Ferrari units, that might be a no-no either. Sauber perhaps? Nah, I don't think so. Caterham might be farfetched, but this is possible - McLaren would have paid them well to keep him for at least a year.
I was considering Williams, but that's unlikely - they wouldn't have thrown Bottas out the window (after all, they discovered him), plus they require an experienced driver to develop the car, hence Massa would have stayed.

David AGS · Post by **David AGS** » 02 Jun 2014, 10:06

(apologies if done before!)

What if Tyrrell continued to use Ford customer engines in 1991 instead of the big and heavy Honda V-10 engine

On that season, what if Benetton ran Goodyear tyres instead of Pirelli rubber?

What if Ford developed and raced the V-12 that they did confirm to race in 1992-1993 (I think those years!)?

What if Sauber continued to use Mercedes Benz engines in 1995 and onwards? (Long time Sauber supplier)

What if Verstappen stayed with Tyrrell in 1998? (got punted last minute by cash of Rosset)

What if Pedro Lamy didn't have that mighty accident testing for Lotus in 1994? (Could he perhaps get a better drive?)

(More to come!)

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 02 Jun 2014, 11:45

Bleu wrote:Hamilton stays in McLaren in 2013, but is then distraught by the bad performance and decides to leave at the end of the year. He signs with Ferrari for 2014 alongside Alonso. Räikkönen is concerned with the financial side of Lotus and returns to McLaren for 2014, with Magnussen taking spot is some midfield/back of the grid team.

With Schumacher injured, Mercedes try to buy out Hülkenberg from Force India, but FI doesn't let him go. Lotus being in more difficult financial situation, lets Grosjean go after Mercedes makes offer on him. They opt for Maldonado/Pic-pairing.

I'm thinking Alonso goes to McLaren (as relationships between him and Ferrari broke down, not to mention any possible friction between him and Hamilton), and either Button or Massa get left out in the cold, then whichever one of them is without a drive gets the Lotus seat after Mercedes poach Grosjean and they need a steady, experienced pair of hands with Maldonado in the other car!!!

(Similar to them getting Heidfeld after Kubica's rally accident).

MrMG · Post by **MrMG** » 02 Jun 2014, 11:58

What if Coulthard agreed to replace Irvine for 1998?
What if James Hunt's attempted 1990 comeback with Williams actually went ahead?
Speaking of James, what would he think of Hamilton? I'd love to be able to hear that!

Enforcer · Post by **Enforcer** » 02 Jun 2014, 14:31

MadGaz85 wrote:What if Coulthard agreed to replace Irvine for 1998?

I don't think Coulthard would've won the WDC for Ferrari, even in 1999 with Schumacher out injured. And if that had been the case, I reckon they'd have brought in Rubens anyway in 2000.

Interestingly though:

1) Who partners Hakkinen in 1998? Do they go in again for Hill as they did in 1997? Doubt he'd have been faster than Hakkinen though.

2) Schumacher would hardly run into the back of his own team-mate in Belgium 1998. Ferrari would have probably organised the lapping properly. Would that have won him the 1998 WDC?

3) If Hill goes to McLaren instead of Jordan in 1998, does Eddie Jordan take Eddie Irvine back? They wouldn't have won a race in 1998 if Schu hadn't rear ended Coulthard, but I still think the '99 car would've been as competitive as it was in reality. So would Irvine have competed for the WDC as well as HHF? Would Irvine have been faster than HHF? If not, would he have taken more points away from Hakkinen & the Ferraris than Hill did to give HHF a better shot? Would they have taken too many points off each other for either to register as potential competitors for the Drivers' Championship?

Might run a hypothetical on that later...

MadGaz85 wrote:What if James Hunt's attempted 1990 comeback with Williams actually went ahead?

Even if we assume he picked up his pace a bit from how he was in testing for them in order to get the drive (I know it failed over money rather than Hunt's pace in testing, but I doubt Frank would've taken him on if he was several seconds off the pace, even with the money sorted) I still don't see him being truly competitive after more than a decade out of the car. At best he lasts the season picking up a handful of points finishes and maybe a podium until they get Mansell for '91.

MadGaz85 wrote:Speaking of James, what would he think of Hamilton? I'd love to be able to hear that!

He'd probably react to his little cries on the radio with comments along the lines of "well, Hamilton should really just get on with the racing" eventually elevating to "Oh shut up, Lewis"

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 02 Jun 2014, 19:29

James1978 wrote:
Bleu wrote:Hamilton stays in McLaren in 2013, but is then distraught by the bad performance and decides to leave at the end of the year. He signs with Ferrari for 2014 alongside Alonso. Räikkönen is concerned with the financial side of Lotus and returns to McLaren for 2014, with Magnussen taking spot is some midfield/back of the grid team.

With Schumacher injured, Mercedes try to buy out Hülkenberg from Force India, but FI doesn't let him go. Lotus being in more difficult financial situation, lets Grosjean go after Mercedes makes offer on him. They opt for Maldonado/Pic-pairing.

I'm thinking Alonso goes to McLaren (as relationships between him and Ferrari broke down, not to mention any possible friction between him and Hamilton), and either Button or Massa get left out in the cold, then whichever one of them is without a drive gets the Lotus seat after Mercedes poach Grosjean and they need a steady, experienced pair of hands with Maldonado in the other car!!!

(Similar to them getting Heidfeld after Kubica's rally accident).

Right, I'll answer my own question in full.

The 2013 line up is as reality except Schumacher and Rosberg at Mercedes, Hamilton and Button at McLaren, and Perez stays at Sauber as there's no McLaren seat available for him to go to. Sauber therefore don't take Gutierrez as they already have a Mexican for their Telmex deal, so it's Perez and the Hulk at Sauber in 2013, and they beat Force India to 6th in the constructors. Schumacher relatively struggles again and Mercedes only finish 4th behind Ferrari and Lotus but knows how good the 2014 car is shaping up and is gearing himself for one big last hoorah but his accident takes away that chance.

Meanwhile, Hamilton, Alonso and Raikkonen, all disillusioned with McLaren/Ferrari/Lotus respectively, all approach Red Bull for the seat about to be vacated by Webber but Vettel doesn't want to be teammates with any of them, and the team doesn't want a clash of the titans so they still take Ricciardo as reality. Ferrari swoop in to get Hamilton which is the last straw for Alonso, whose outbursts against the team in Hungary and Monza weakens his bargaining with them and doesn't want another 2007, so goes to McLaren in anticipation of Honda engines in 2015. Ferrari initially consider keeping Massa there alongside Hamilton, but after their run-ins in 2011, Massa won't accept being second fiddle to Hamilton and signs for Williams. McLaren is also the only other top team Raikkonen can go to with Lotus' financial difficulties which leaves Button trying to get a midfield seat.

So after Schumacher's accident, Mercedes try for Hulkenberg but he's already signed with Force India who won't let him go, they do get Grosjean as described above - so Button gets the vacant Lotus seat, as money isn't an issue with both Maldonado, the payoff for Grosjean, and also their need to have someone reliable alongside Maldonado, Button is the perfect driver for them.

So I'm thinking Bianchi or Kobayashi for the 2nd Ferrari (as they like having a clear #1 and #2), then McLaren let Magnussen drive for whichever of the two tail end teams' drivers doesn't get the 2nd Ferrari seat.

So the 2014 grid goes something like:

Red Bull: Vettel/Ricciardo
Mercedes: Rosberg/Grosjean
Ferrari: Hamilton/Bianchi or Kobayashi
McLaren: Alonso/Raikkonen
Lotus: Button/Maldonado
Williams: Massa/Bottas
Sauber: Perez/Sutil
Force India: Hulkenberg/actually Di Resta can stay there now can't he?
Toro Rosso: Vergne/Kvyat
Caterham: Ericsson/Magnussen or Kobaayshi
Marussia: Chilton/Magnussen or Bianchi

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 03 Jun 2014, 09:01

Ferrari would have gone for Kobayashi. Why? Because they wouldn't really allow Bianchi to get a promotion after a single season (Alesi spent 1.5 years at Tyrrell after all...), so he stays with Marussia alongside Chilton, because money. Kobayashi would be a stop-gap solution, while still being a good chance for him to shine. (This would enable Kamui to have a shot at a different team in 2015.)
Magnussen would be at Caterham after McLaren contacts Fernandes with a bag of cash saying "you take Kevin and this money and we have a deal". Magnussen would be joined by Ericsson, and Kevin would be in the same position as Bianchi at Marussia: "if you're performing well, you get a promotion".
Di Resta. This actually depends on his mentality and hunger. He considerably beat Sutil 48-29 in points, but he got beaten by Hulk 63-45 in 2012... so I think yes, he would stay for round 2, saying "I've had a bad 2012 season, when I had the car to deliver. I'm staying with Force India to show I'm worthy of a top drive." Or something like that.

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 03 Jun 2014, 11:18

The other possibility is:

Hamilton/Raikkonen at Ferrari (not sure how either of them would like having the other as a teammate mind you which was why I ruled that out originally)

Alonso/Magnussen at McLaren (do they need Button when they have Alonso - and they feel they can risk Magnussen as they have Alonso).

No opening at Ferrari for Kobayashi who goes to Caterham as reality.

Button still there to take the Lotus seat, he was trying to get in Force India before it became available. Though with that possibility gone, FI keep Di Resta.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 03 Jun 2014, 13:05

Actually, I'd argue that Perez would have beaten the lot of them to the second Ferrari seat, as they did show considerable interest in him at one point. Assuming Perez went to Ferrari, this would have opened the door to either Robin Frijns or Bianchi getting the second Sauber seat alongside Sutil, with Bianchi probably getting the nod thanks to his Ferrari connections.

With Bianchi moving up to Sauber, Marussia would in all likelihood up going with either Magnussen or Frijns, Caterham would still end up going with Kobayashi, and Force India would send di Resta back to where he came from in DTM to make room for James Calado.

Dj_bereta · Post by **Dj_bereta** » 09 Jun 2014, 04:41

What if F1 had harsh penalties in the recent era (more race bans and etc), like was in the 1994 season?

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 09 Jun 2014, 06:36

Maldonado misses half the races.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 09 Jun 2014, 07:53

takagi_for_the_win wrote:What if Mika Hakkinen's move to Williams for 1993 hadn't fallen through?

Or what if Hakkinen had joined Williams for 2004 (after deciding against B.A.R)?

MrMG · Post by **MrMG** » 10 Jun 2014, 02:07

I can't believe this one hasn't been asked yet:

What if Williams took the option for Mansell in 1995?

go_Rubens · Post by **go_Rubens** » 10 Jun 2014, 03:20

MadGaz85 wrote:I can't believe this one hasn't been asked yet:

What if Williams took the option for Mansell in 1995?

"Well, so much for that. Thank you for your services."

-Frank Williams after the 1995 season.

The thing was, Mansell was past his prime. I'm under the impression he'd have done similar thngs to his fail of a McLaren adventure. He might have won Adelaide 1994, but after that, I really don't see why Williams would have chosen him over young blood in Coulthard. But if they did, I wouldn't have expected much seeing Benetton were dominant and Hill was the only one who came within reasonable distance of Schumacher, and the distance was still unreasonable.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 10 Jun 2014, 06:27

MadGaz85 wrote:I can't believe this one hasn't been asked yet:

What if Williams took the option for Mansell in 1995?

We wouldn't be able to make jokes about Mansell making a comeback, because he'll have been so comprehensively thrashed by Hill and Schumacher that even he realises that he has no business in F1 anymore. Furthermore, we probably wouldn't have those excellent clips of Coulthard crashing on the warmup lap at Monza, and crashing into the pitlane at Adelaide. And that would be unacceptable.

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 10 Jun 2014, 11:15

go_Rubens wrote:Hill was the only one who came within reasonable distance of Schumacher, and the distance was still unreasonable.

Not even wrong.

takagi_for_the_win · Post by **takagi_for_the_win** » 10 Jun 2014, 19:02

CoopsII wrote:
takagi_for_the_win wrote:What if Mika Hakkinen's move to Williams for 1993 hadn't fallen through?

Or what if Hakkinen had joined Williams for 2004 (after deciding against B.A.R)?

Bloody hell, that really shows how desperate they were to get rid of Ralf Schumacher...

go_Rubens wrote:Hill was the only one who came within reasonable distance of Schumacher, and the distance was still unreasonable.

This quote confuses me greatly.

MrMG · Post by **MrMG** » 10 Jun 2014, 21:00

Personally I reckon that Mansell might have started strong, no wins but a couple of podiums. Then would get more frustrated by all the reliability issues (which cost Coulthard multiple wins) and pack it in mid-season when he realised Schumacher was running away with it (Hill would just be the other Williams driver and not a factor at all).

"Michael's going forwards whilst we're going backwards and it's just not good enough for a world champion to be honest. I came back to make it 2, and that's just not happening".

With Mansell gone, Williams recall Boullion from Sauber. He proceeds to do absolutely nothing of note and coupled with Hill's silly mistakes, 95 is swiftly written off by the team.
.
Meanwhile, Coulthard, having ran mid-field for much of the season in the McLaren, can't help but smile at the Mansell drama!

go_Rubens · Post by **go_Rubens** » 10 Jun 2014, 21:08

takagi_for_the_win wrote:
go_Rubens wrote:Hill was the only one who came within reasonable distance of Schumacher, and the distance was still unreasonable.

This quote confuses me greatly.

It didn't have to make sense, did it?

I was saying that Hill's driving was reasonably within Schumacher's driving that year, but the points gap was unreasonable because Hill let Schumacher get away with the title with too many mistakes. I also said that considering the championship positions of other drivers as well. It was an odd way of daying Hill had it to beat Michael, but then he didn't at the same time.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 11 Jun 2014, 05:48

Here's one question that can change six seasons at least:
What if Montoya never came to F1?

Bleu · Post by **Bleu** » 11 Jun 2014, 17:23

Shizuka wrote:Here's one question that can change six seasons at least:
What if Montoya never came to F1?

Button stays at Williams. Mark Webber makes a debut in 2001 as Fisichella's team-mate.

In 2001 Ralf is still better of the two, but Button becomes youngest ever GP winner that year. In 2002 tables turn around and Button outpaces Ralf, the latter getting dumped at the end of the year, replaced by Heidfeld. 2003 is good season for the team, both getting race wins but no title. Heidfeld continues in Williams beyond 2005, but Button moves to McLaren in 2005 after five seasons with Williams. Räikkönen still leaves McLaren for Ferrari after 2006, Hamilton makes debut in 2007 but Alonso stays at Renault for 2007, until moving to Honda in 2008, then going to win title with Brawn in 2009. He continues after Mercedes buyout. Schumacher won't make comeback and Räikkönen doesn't make WRC visit.

Benetton's season was really difficult and Webber doesn't score until points until Hockenheim, then gets also point(s) at Spa and/or Monza. However he stays on for 2002, beating Trulli who is dumped after only one year, 2003 pairing being Webber-Alonso. Both get one win that year, Webber in Monaco and Alonso in Hungary. The pairing continues until the end of 2004, as Webber is beaten. Webber then joins Red Bull in 2005 to partner Klien. Coulthard goes to Sauber instead of Villeneuve, continues until the end of 2006 and retires. Webber's career path follows pretty much the same as it did 2007 onwards.

Dj_bereta · Post by **Dj_bereta** » 11 Jun 2014, 21:18

I don't remember this was already in this topic, but:

What if FIA had decided to exclude the results of 2008 Singapore Grand Prix because of Crash-gate and banned Renault from 2009 season?

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 11 Jun 2014, 21:34

Dj_bereta wrote:I don't remember this was already in this topic, but:

What if FIA had decided to exclude the results of 2008 Singapore Grand Prix because of Crash-gate and banned Renault from 2009 season?

If you mean making all the results for the race redundant, as if the race never happened, then Hamilton would have lost his 6 points and Massa would be World Champion! :mrgreen:

(Happy because Massa won the title, not because Hamilton lost

)

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 12 Jun 2014, 12:10

Bleu wrote:
Shizuka wrote:Here's one question that can change six seasons at least:
What if Montoya never came to F1?

Button stays at Williams. Mark Webber makes a debut in 2001 as Fisichella's team-mate.

In 2001 Ralf is still better of the two, but Button becomes youngest ever GP winner that year. In 2002 tables turn around and Button outpaces Ralf, the latter getting dumped at the end of the year, replaced by Heidfeld. 2003 is good season for the team, both getting race wins but no title. Heidfeld continues in Williams beyond 2005, but Button moves to McLaren in 2005 after five seasons with Williams. Räikkönen still leaves McLaren for Ferrari after 2006, Hamilton makes debut in 2007 but Alonso stays at Renault for 2007, until moving to Honda in 2008, then going to win title with Brawn in 2009. He continues after Mercedes buyout. Schumacher won't make comeback and Räikkönen doesn't make WRC visit.

Benetton's season was really difficult and Webber doesn't score until points until Hockenheim, then gets also point(s) at Spa and/or Monza. However he stays on for 2002, beating Trulli who is dumped after only one year, 2003 pairing being Webber-Alonso. Both get one win that year, Webber in Monaco and Alonso in Hungary. The pairing continues until the end of 2004, as Webber is beaten. Webber then joins Red Bull in 2005 to partner Klien. Coulthard goes to Sauber instead of Villeneuve, continues until the end of 2006 and retires. Webber's career path follows pretty much the same as it did 2007 onwards.

Now that is interesting, so:
2003 - now Williams is out of question, but what about McLaren; would Kimi have a better chance that Heidfeld and Button constantly take points off each other?
How would 2005 change? In '05 as there is no Montoya, would Kimi score slightly more to support his title bid, or would unreliability still hurt him just enough to lose? Would Button pose a bigger threat to Fernando and Kimi? 2006 is most likely Alonso's - Schumacher was the threat then.

mrfakeboullier · Post by **mrfakeboullier** » 22 Jun 2014, 10:42

James1978 wrote:
James1978 wrote:
Bleu wrote:Hamilton stays in McLaren in 2013, but is then distraught by the bad performance and decides to leave at the end of the year. He signs with Ferrari for 2014 alongside Alonso. Räikkönen is concerned with the financial side of Lotus and returns to McLaren for 2014, with Magnussen taking spot is some midfield/back of the grid team.

With Schumacher injured, Mercedes try to buy out Hülkenberg from Force India, but FI doesn't let him go. Lotus being in more difficult financial situation, lets Grosjean go after Mercedes makes offer on him. They opt for Maldonado/Pic-pairing.

I'm thinking Alonso goes to McLaren (as relationships between him and Ferrari broke down, not to mention any possible friction between him and Hamilton), and either Button or Massa get left out in the cold, then whichever one of them is without a drive gets the Lotus seat after Mercedes poach Grosjean and they need a steady, experienced pair of hands with Maldonado in the other car!!!

(Similar to them getting Heidfeld after Kubica's rally accident).

Right, I'll answer my own question in full.

The 2013 line up is as reality except Schumacher and Rosberg at Mercedes, Hamilton and Button at McLaren, and Perez stays at Sauber as there's no McLaren seat available for him to go to. Sauber therefore don't take Gutierrez as they already have a Mexican for their Telmex deal, so it's Perez and the Hulk at Sauber in 2013, and they beat Force India to 6th in the constructors. Schumacher relatively struggles again and Mercedes only finish 4th behind Ferrari and Lotus but knows how good the 2014 car is shaping up and is gearing himself for one big last hoorah but his accident takes away that chance.

Meanwhile, Hamilton, Alonso and Raikkonen, all disillusioned with McLaren/Ferrari/Lotus respectively, all approach Red Bull for the seat about to be vacated by Webber but Vettel doesn't want to be teammates with any of them, and the team doesn't want a clash of the titans so they still take Ricciardo as reality. Ferrari swoop in to get Hamilton which is the last straw for Alonso, whose outbursts against the team in Hungary and Monza weakens his bargaining with them and doesn't want another 2007, so goes to McLaren in anticipation of Honda engines in 2015. Ferrari initially consider keeping Massa there alongside Hamilton, but after their run-ins in 2011, Massa won't accept being second fiddle to Hamilton and signs for Williams. McLaren is also the only other top team Raikkonen can go to with Lotus' financial difficulties which leaves Button trying to get a midfield seat.

So after Schumacher's accident, Mercedes try for Hulkenberg but he's already signed with Force India who won't let him go, they do get Grosjean as described above - so Button gets the vacant Lotus seat, as money isn't an issue with both Maldonado, the payoff for Grosjean, and also their need to have someone reliable alongside Maldonado, Button is the perfect driver for them.

So I'm thinking Bianchi or Kobayashi for the 2nd Ferrari (as they like having a clear #1 and #2), then McLaren let Magnussen drive for whichever of the two tail end teams' drivers doesn't get the 2nd Ferrari seat.

So the 2014 grid goes something like:

Red Bull: Vettel/Ricciardo
Mercedes: Rosberg/Grosjean
Ferrari: Hamilton/Bianchi or Kobayashi
McLaren: Alonso/Raikkonen
Lotus: Button/Maldonado
Williams: Massa/Bottas
Sauber: Perez/Sutil
Force India: Hulkenberg/actually Di Resta can stay there now can't he?
Toro Rosso: Vergne/Kvyat
Caterham: Ericsson/Magnussen or Kobaayshi
Marussia: Chilton/Magnussen or Bianchi

I think personally if Schumi knew how good the W05 was he wouldn't have "risked" skiing off piste. That or Merc would have banned him.
Schumi stays at Mercedes and Maldonado goes to Marussia in place of Max Talent. Rosberg cakewalks to the title.

MrMG · Post by **MrMG** » 24 Jun 2014, 01:15

Yeah I reckon Schumacher just wouldn't have had the spare time to go skiing!

Imagine Schumacher in the Mercedes this year, he could easily have ended his career on a high

Rosberg would probably take the title but a few wins and 2nd in the championship would have given him a great sendoff.

Julien · Post by **Julien** » 24 Jun 2014, 04:31

MadGaz85 wrote:Yeah I reckon Schumacher just wouldn't have had the spare time to go skiing!

Imagine Schumacher in the Mercedes this year, he could easily have ended his career on a high Rosberg would probably take the title but a few wins and 2nd in the championship would have given him a great sendoff.

Well I think he would have been out of pace, and while he would have performed decently, he would have been far off from Rosperg. For example in Austria he would have finished not higher than 4th.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 24 Jun 2014, 05:05

What if Olivier Panis signed with Arrows for the 2000 season?

go_Rubens · Post by **go_Rubens** » 24 Jun 2014, 05:10

Wizzie wrote:What if Olivier Panis signed with Arrows for the 2000 season?

I think he had the potential to score points in some races, but only the low downforce ones like Monza and Hockenheim. Beaides that, I think he wouldn't have really impressed much. It seems as if he was never the same driver after his crash at Montréal 1997. If that never happened, I think he would have done better.

Post by **Miguel98** » 16 Jul 2014, 11:13

Here's an interesting What If:

What if Fernando Alonso had signed with Jaguar back in 2003?

W12 · Post by **W12** » 16 Jul 2014, 11:38

Miguel98 wrote:Here's an interesting What If:

What if Fernando Alonso had signed with Jaguar back in 2003?

He would have scored a couple of podiums. And Jag would have won ROTR at Brazil 2003 (both Alonso and Webber crashed at the main straight in the space of one lap)