Unpopular F1 opinions

[GerhardTalger]

It was more a track of ambiance than a track of skillful driving.

[CoopsII]

and Clark had a strong dislike for Hockenheim as well.

I'll bet he did.

[Salamander]

Clark had a strong dislike for Hockenheim as well.

Clark had a strong dislike for any track which encouraged very high speeds in areas where there was absolutely no safety measures - he hated Spa as well.

[Jonny83]

I'm in the camp that prefers old Hockenheim to new - now don't get me wrong 16 Hockenheim-esque tracks would be dull, but I liked the variety it brought to the calendar, and required different attributes of the machinery to other tracks to be competitive. Also unlike say, Monza, it (as already mentioned) had variety within itself, not just the the long blasts through the forest punctuated by the chicanes, but the twisty stadium section.

Ultimately I think two things affected Hockenheim's reputation - It wasn't the Nordschleife, and it's where Jim Clark was killed.

[Aerospeed]

I'm in the camp that prefers old Hockenheim to new - now don't get me wrong 16 Hockenheim-esque tracks would be dull, but I liked the variety it brought to the calendar, and required different attributes of the machinery to other tracks to be competitive. Also unlike say, Monza, it (as already mentioned) had variety within itself, not just the the long blasts through the forest punctuated by the chicanes, but the twisty stadium section.

Ultimately I think two things affected Hockenheim's reputation - It wasn't the Nordschleife, and it's where Jim Clark was killed.

And it's where the Merc guy ran on the track in 2000 causing the safety car to be pulled out, which showed that it was an absurdly long track. The new track may be an aberration, but it's still better than the Laustizring...

[Turbogirl]

And it's where the Merc guy ran on the track in 2000 causing the safety car to be pulled out, which showed that it was an absurdly long track. The new track may be an aberration, but it's still better than the Laustizring...

But didn't some guy also invade Silverstone in 2003? Or maybe that's the reason why we now got that ridiculous infield part.

[FMecha]

And it's where the Merc guy ran on the track in 2000 causing the safety car to be pulled out, which showed that it was an absurdly long track. The new track may be an aberration, but it's still better than the Laustizring...

But didn't some guy also invade Silverstone in 2003? Or maybe that's the reason why we now got that ridiculous infield part.

That was Neil Horan

[AdrianSutil]

*Walks into thread*
Old Hockenheim > New Hockenheim
*Walks out of thread*

[roblo97]

I'm in the camp that prefers old Hockenheim to new - now don't get me wrong 16 Hockenheim-esque tracks would be dull, but I liked the variety it brought to the calendar, and required different attributes of the machinery to other tracks to be competitive. Also unlike say, Monza, it (as already mentioned) had variety within itself, not just the the long blasts through the forest punctuated by the chicanes, but the twisty stadium section.

Ultimately I think two things affected Hockenheim's reputation - It wasn't the Nordschleife, and it's where Jim Clark was killed.

Having driven both tracks on Shift 2, I think that there was nothing like the old track with regards to the forrest section and the stadium at the end. However, the new track is actually ok and there are still some rather quick corners. Turns 1,5,7,12,14 and 15 are all taken in fourth gear or higher in a 2012 spec car.

[Alextrax52]

And it's where the Merc guy ran on the track in 2000 causing the safety car to be pulled out, which showed that it was an absurdly long track. The new track may be an aberration, but it's still better than the Laustizring...

But didn't some guy also invade Silverstone in 2003? Or maybe that's the reason why we now got that ridiculous infield part.

That was Neil Horan

Neil Horan also got involved in one of the 2004 Olympic events and went on Britain's Got Talent

[Wallio]

The reason the old Hockenheim was great to me, was that it allowed teams to invest in a super-low downforce package for Germany, Italy, and if they were brave, Indy. Now with just Monza, there's no reason to build anything other than a front wing.

[good_Ralf]

The first ever Russian GP (if it takes place) will be extremely boring and unproductive like the Valencia GP. Plus the layouts for both circuits look very similar.

[watka]

The first ever Russian GP (if it takes place) will be extremely boring and unproductive like the Valencia GP. Plus the layouts for both circuits look very similar.

Unpopular only because you've made a snap judgment based on little information. Gut feeling says you might be right though, I get far more excited by new road circuits on the calendar than street circuits.

[Salamander]

The first ever Russian GP (if it takes place) will be extremely boring and unproductive like the Valencia GP. Plus the layouts for both circuits look very similar.

Yes, because judging a track based on it's layout alone and absolutely no solid evidence such as actual racing occurring on it is the best way to determine anything about it ever.

Oh wait, no it isn't.

[watka]

The first ever Russian GP (if it takes place) will be extremely boring and unproductive like the Valencia GP. Plus the layouts for both circuits look very similar.

Yes, because judging a track based on it's layout alone and absolutely no solid evidence such as actual racing occurring on it is the best way to determine anything about it ever.

Oh wait, no it isn't.

The exception to the above rule:

[Julien]

By 2014, drivers are degraded into one of the many variables of the car. They can only determine which car of the team will finish ahead of the another but they can't make a real difference any more (like Alonso did many times in the past, with his mediocre Ferrari).

[AustralianStig]

By 2014, drivers are degraded into one of the many variables of the car. They can only determine which car of the team will finish ahead of the another but they can't make a real difference any more (like Alonso did many times in the past, with his mediocre Ferrari).

Disagree, we are seeing plenty of teams where teammates clearly have an edge at this point of the year, such as Hulkenberg at Force India, Ricciardo at Red Bull, and Hamilton at Mercedes.

[MorbidelliObese]

By 2014, drivers are degraded into one of the many variables of the car. They can only determine which car of the team will finish ahead of the another but they can't make a real difference any more (like Alonso did many times in the past, with his mediocre Ferrari).

I'd say drivers have always been one of the variables since year dot, maybe the, weighting (for want of a better word) of the driver relative to other components of the car has fluctuated over time, but even back in the mid 90s I remember Noah's Ark-style grids at some races (unpopular opinion time - those never bothered me) - so this is nothing new, and probably won't last that long once teams get on top of the new regs and close up over the next 3 or 4 years or so.

[Julien]

What I meant that drivers can't make a real difference any more. Alonso could be faster than Raikkonen but that's it. He can't catch up with Mercs, Red Bulls, not even with the Williamses. Same goes to Red Bull, Ricciardo can't catch up with Rosberg and the maximum Vettel can make out of his race is being 4th behind Ricciardo. There is no mixup among the teams. If one car of the team can be faster than another team, both cars will be faster.
Check the Spanish race results! Mercedes 1-2, Red Bull 3-4, Ferrari 6-7, Force India 9-10, McLaren 11-12 etc. The only reaso why there was not a clear team 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 etc because Massa's strategy was very bad and the other Lotus was driven by Maldonado.

[AustralianStig]

What I meant that drivers can't make a real difference any more. Alonso could be faster than Raikkonen but that's it. He can't catch up with Mercs, Red Bulls, not even with the Williamses. Same goes to Red Bull, Ricciardo can't catch up with Rosberg and the maximum Vettel can make out of his race is being 4th behind Ricciardo. There is no mixup among the teams. If one car of the team can be faster than another team, both cars will be faster.
Check the Spanish race results! Mercedes 1-2, Red Bull 3-4, Ferrari 6-7, Force India 9-10, McLaren 11-12 etc. The only reaso why there was not a clear team 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 etc because Massa's strategy was very bad and the other Lotus was driven by Maldonado.

Except Spain nearly always throws up a result like that due to the difficulty in overtaking. One race does not a rule make.

[dr-baker]

What I meant that drivers can't make a real difference any more. Alonso could be faster than Raikkonen but that's it. He can't catch up with Mercs, Red Bulls, not even with the Williamses. Same goes to Red Bull, Ricciardo can't catch up with Rosberg and the maximum Vettel can make out of his race is being 4th behind Ricciardo. There is no mixup among the teams. If one car of the team can be faster than another team, both cars will be faster.
Check the Spanish race results! Mercedes 1-2, Red Bull 3-4, Ferrari 6-7, Force India 9-10, McLaren 11-12 etc. The only reaso why there was not a clear team 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 etc because Massa's strategy was very bad and the other Lotus was driven by Maldonado.

Except Spain nearly always throws up a result like that due to the difficulty in overtaking. One race does not a rule make.

But one race for that race track a rule could make. As Yoda might say?

[mario]

What I meant that drivers can't make a real difference any more. Alonso could be faster than Raikkonen but that's it. He can't catch up with Mercs, Red Bulls, not even with the Williamses. Same goes to Red Bull, Ricciardo can't catch up with Rosberg and the maximum Vettel can make out of his race is being 4th behind Ricciardo. There is no mixup among the teams. If one car of the team can be faster than another team, both cars will be faster.
Check the Spanish race results! Mercedes 1-2, Red Bull 3-4, Ferrari 6-7, Force India 9-10, McLaren 11-12 etc. The only reaso why there was not a clear team 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 etc because Massa's strategy was very bad and the other Lotus was driven by Maldonado.

Except Spain nearly always throws up a result like that due to the difficulty in overtaking. One race does not a rule make.

True, it would be a bit like deciding the relative competitiveness of the drivers at a circuit like the old Hockenheim, which was really more of a test of the cars rather than the drivers (as Hunt quipped in the audio clip that Enoch sourced for one podcast, where Hunt was complaining about the cars running in pairs from 1st through to 10th). Barcelona is, given that it is a common test track for teams and a highly aero dependent circuit, tend to separate teams out in fairly distinct bands anyway unless there are some other factors at play.

Now, that isn't to say that there isn't something of a spread in the field - it is true that there does seem to be a broad pattern within the field. However, we have seen that some races have bucked that trend - for example, Alonso's podium in China saw him well put his car far further up the field than many would have expected. It is when there are circumstances that might give a particular car a slight advantage that driver talent can really come to the fore and let them make their mark (whilst we have seen the Mercedes drivers lock out the front two places, save for Australia thanks to Hamilton breaking down, we've seen five different drivers in 3rd place in the past five races).

[Julien]

What about the Monaco qualifying then? Mercedes 1-2, Red Bull 3-4, Ferrari 5-6... McLaren breaks the rule, but Force Indias, Lotuses, Saubers, Marussias, Caterhams alls start from next to each other: McLaren and Williams are the exceptions but only becaus Massa didn't record a time and Button was held up on his hot lap.
All this in Monaco and in the qualifying, when the driver counts the most... I still think that currently all a driver can do is to determine the order within the team, but that's it...

[good_Ralf]

The no-pitting-under-the-SC rule should be re-introduced, especially now that the possibility of driver's fuel tanks going empty is now removed. It would also mix up the results, for example, Massa would have led in Monaco today if the rule was still in force. Of course if a driver has a puncture or damage they are allowed to pit.

[Rob Dylan]

The no-pitting-under-the-SC rule should be re-introduced, especially now that the possibility of driver's fuel tanks going empty is now removed. It would also mix up the results, for example, Massa would have led in Monaco today if the rule was still in force. Of course if a driver has a puncture or damage they are allowed to pit.

I definitely agree with that. It was unpopular due to the circumstances at the time that kept popping up. Now that major factor against it has been gone for a while. In fact they changed the rule just before they got rid of refueling

[CoopsII]

Regretfully, Daniel Ricciardo is making me reassess how good Mark Webber was. I hope the oft-repeated "car doesn't suit my style" thing that Vettel is relying on at the moment has some truth in it.

[AustralianStig]

Regretfully, Daniel Ricciardo is making me reassess how good Mark Webber was. I hope the oft-repeated "car doesn't suit my style" thing that Vettel is relying on at the moment has some truth in it.

Don't forget, Webber was at the twilight of his career - Vettel was the only teammate Mark ever had that regularly outpaced him, including Nico Rosberg at Williams (granted, he was a rookie).

[Wallio]

After watching the 1996 Season Review last night, Schumi would have won another title at Benetton if he had stayed. Alesi and Berger were right there with Williams, and in Berger's case admittedly threw away a number of wins. The team had the Renault V10s and some pretty awesome strategy, they just needed a number 1 driver. Or in Alesi's case, some luck.

[GerhardTalger]

Well, I think the lost staff really was the key why Benetton actually couldn't keep up with Williams. And it wasn't just a tad, it was clearly not keeping up with the Williams car. Hill was a sub-par driver, as seen in the Jordan, and Villeneuve was a joke as we all might know. Alesi already had the best of his career though and Gerhard always was much of a choker - in terms we might call the Fisichella-complex (performing great in underpowered cars but not able to scar their (definitely better) teammate in the top flight)

Jean had only a single serious chance of winning, apart from suffering from Schumi's luck at Italy (Schumi nearly survived a collision with those rejectful tyre barriers to prevent cutting chicanes there while leading ahead of him), and that was the well-known Monaco GP, where he led for 20 laps. I still think Gerhard would have won that German race without the blowup. Ironically, those were the GP's these two were always good. Especially on the slower tracks, the aerodynamic package of the Williams seemed so much better than the Benetton. And Alesi still had some demonic starts...

I think Schumi would have won that championship, though. Hill was somewhat better than his 95 form, and the Benetton proved to be less reliable, so it could have been mighty close. Alesi was a decent but unlucky driver, but Schumi was way better still.

The only other win Berger could have thrown away is Japan, really. But I don't think he would've won.

[CoopsII]

I'm cross at F1 right now so the suggestion my opinion isn't a fair and balanced one probably carries some weight.

However, my perception of F1 now and in the near future is that it is made of plastic.

I cannot currently describe it any better. I foresee my future F1 viewing consisting of DVD reviews and shouting "Go on Andretti, you can turn over that Senna bloke!"

[SgtPepper]

I'm cross at F1 right now so the suggestion my opinion isn't a fair and balanced one probably carries some weight.

However, my perception of F1 now and in the near future is that it is made of plastic.

I cannot currently describe it any better. I foresee my future F1 viewing consisting of DVD reviews and shouting "Go on Andretti, you can turn over that Senna bloke!"

Agree completely with you in regards to some things - double points, DRS, most of the Tilke-tracks and that embrassing titanium skid plates nonsense in Austria are certainly detriments that should be scrapped forthwith.

But do you not think we've had some brilliant racing this season? From where I'm sitting, reduced downforce and increased torque have been a huge injection of vitality, re-introducing some of the raw talent that these cars need to be driven, rather than just robots and whoever has the best aero. The formulas not exactly perfect (has it ever been?), but I honestly can't see how it can't be seen as an improvement on recent years. I'll agree the Merc domination isn't exactly ideal, but even that is generally showing stages of improving as well. Not criticising or anything, just interested.

[CoopsII]

But do you not think we've had some brilliant racing this season? From where I'm sitting, reduced downforce and increased torque have been a huge injection of vitality, re-introducing some of the raw talent that these cars need to be driven, rather than just robots and whoever has the best aero. The formulas not exactly perfect (has it ever been?), but I honestly can't see how it can't be seen as an improvement on recent years. I'll agree the Merc domination isn't exactly ideal, but even that is generally showing stages of improving as well. Not criticising or anything, just interested.

I do agree with everything you say and to be honest the Merc-almost-domination doesn't put me off in the slightest. I don't care about the noses particulary and as a TV viewer the engine noise is slightly irrelevant. However, some of the upcoming changes are beyond the pale to me. Put it like this, I'm having a great week, work's going well and I'm enjoying family life too.

BUT on Saturday night I have to go to an event which I really don't want to go to and the prospect of it is casting a shadow on all the positives of the moment. That's how I feel about the double points thing at the end of the season. And this safety car nonsense for next year annoys me in theory and I cannot see how it wouldnt in practice.

[SgtPepper]

But do you not think we've had some brilliant racing this season? From where I'm sitting, reduced downforce and increased torque have been a huge injection of vitality, re-introducing some of the raw talent that these cars need to be driven, rather than just robots and whoever has the best aero. The formulas not exactly perfect (has it ever been?), but I honestly can't see how it can't be seen as an improvement on recent years. I'll agree the Merc domination isn't exactly ideal, but even that is generally showing stages of improving as well. Not criticising or anything, just interested.

I do agree with everything you say and to be honest the Merc-almost-domination doesn't put me off in the slightest. I don't care about the noses particulary and as a TV viewer the engine noise is slightly irrelevant. However, some of the upcoming changes are beyond the pale to me. Put it like this, I'm having a great week, work's going well and I'm enjoying family life too.

BUT on Saturday night I have to go to an event which I really don't want to go to and the prospect of it is casting a shadow on all the positives of the moment. That's how I feel about the double points thing at the end of the season. And this safety car nonsense for next year annoys me in theory and I cannot see how it wouldnt in practice.

Agree on the noses and sound, but I'll confess I've been so busy at work I haven't had time to follow the recent changes to the formula, so am yet to form an opinion either way on them. It frustrates me that we've got high torque AND road relevant engines, and a considerable contingency of the fanbase remains unhappy. I'm still hoping double points ruins the season '88 style, and the outcry is so fearce that it's immediately scrapped.

[mrfakeboullier]

But do you not think we've had some brilliant racing this season? From where I'm sitting, reduced downforce and increased torque have been a huge injection of vitality, re-introducing some of the raw talent that these cars need to be driven, rather than just robots and whoever has the best aero. The formulas not exactly perfect (has it ever been?), but I honestly can't see how it can't be seen as an improvement on recent years. I'll agree the Merc domination isn't exactly ideal, but even that is generally showing stages of improving as well. Not criticising or anything, just interested.

I do agree with everything you say and to be honest the Merc-almost-domination doesn't put me off in the slightest. I don't care about the noses particulary and as a TV viewer the engine noise is slightly irrelevant. However, some of the upcoming changes are beyond the pale to me. Put it like this, I'm having a great week, work's going well and I'm enjoying family life too.

BUT on Saturday night I have to go to an event which I really don't want to go to and the prospect of it is casting a shadow on all the positives of the moment. That's how I feel about the double points thing at the end of the season. And this safety car nonsense for next year annoys me in theory and I cannot see how it wouldnt in practice.

I'd agree that the domination isn't ideal for attracting new viewers but if you look through seasons like 2004 and 2011 which were dominated by one driver the racing behind was fantastic.

[CoopsII]

I'm feeling sorry for Sebastian Vettel.

[DanielPT]

I'm feeling sorry for Sebastian Vettel.

Well, I am pretty sure his character is becoming stronger by this rotten season of his. So that is a good thing.

[mrfakeboullier]

Williams have a habit of making bad drivers world champions.

[dr-baker]

Williams have a habit of making bloody determined, hard-working drivers world champions.

Fixed.

[Salamander]

Williams have a habit of making bad drivers world champions.

So, Alain Prost is a bad driver?

[girry]

Fans don't appreciate the beauty of F1, that not even nearly always the "fastest" or "best" - nor even the "most deserving" - driver wins, enough.